Fireplace question for our knowledgeable group

[Michael Weber]

For the first time since we purchased the house I removed the steel wood burning insert from the fireplace box. This was in preparation for a remodel and possible conversion to a wood burning fireplace without the insert. I know little about how fireplaces are supposed to be constructed but these pictures don't look right to me. I don't see a any real fire brick, just plain red masonry brick. In fact the brick on the bottom has the three holes typical of that and the holes are facing up. The addition was in the 80's and the insert is probably that old. The insert just vented into the firebox and did not have it's own flue liner but used the masonry chimney flue. Was this constructed originally with the idea that an insert would be installed and never intended to be a real fireplace? If so I assume it's not usable as is for a fireplace and needs work to be converted? Is that right?299360299361299359
Thanks

[Lee Schierer]

It appears that there is no fire brick. You should also get a chimney sweep to inspect the flue and damper (if there is one). He could also tell you if he brick is right.

[Chad Helme]

Looks a lot like the fire place in my parents home. built in '76, and designed to be used as a fire place w/out any insert. Theirs has the red clay/masonry flue liner (not sure what thats called) and a flue damper. You need the flue damper to control draft. If you install a glass front enclosure with dampers, I think that might work too for controlling draft.

Definitely get a chimney inspection. Of course, they are going to try and "sell you" as many of their products and services as they can. My friend just bought a home and had their chimney inspected, putting 100% trust in their chimney sweep company. $2700.00 later, they are now having fires in their living room. I was too hurt after hearing that to even ask exactly what they did, but caution and second opinions are recommended!

In my humble opinion, you need a clean chimney, a flue damper, and a brick fireplace to have fires. Beyond that, I think they are luxuries and safeguards. But I'm no expert. Good luck.

[Mark Bolton]

Masonry fireplaces have been around a lot longer than firebrick. That said, it being a fairly recent installation I would definitely be contacting a reputable mason for a consult on the construction of the firebox and chimney. My guess is you'll be looking at a liner and another insert.

[Bruce Volden]

[QUOTE=Michael Weber;2328681]For the first time since we purchased the house I removed the steel wood burning insert from the fireplace box. This was in preparation for a remodel and possible conversion to a wood burning fireplace without the insert.

I thought the inserts were supposed to be more efficient than a plain open fireplace?

Bruce

[Brian W Smith]

There's about 1/2 dz ways to approach this....all coming with their own set of complexities,regs,prices.And without a complete assessment(inside AND out) any advice thrown about is just WAG'ing.It is entirely possible that the cheapest/best route could even be tearing the whole thing down and starting from scratch?.....not likely it would be this extreme,but who knows?

The very first thing you need to do is google images for "Rumford fireplace design".Educate yourself as much as possible on how they're 'sposed to be built.Then carefully examine what you have.Even to the point of dropping a camera on a rope or stick and getting a look-see at the flue's internals.Compare this with known industry stds.

Next step is you are looking for "a name".Find out from your local pro brick/block/masonary yard....and don't try this over the phone.....go middle of the week and you need to talk to either the owner or one of their salesman(not a dispatcher).Explain the situation as succinctly as possible and see who the "go-to" mason is in your area.This isn't a guy who's "trying to make it"....he should be the guy who's the expert in brick resto work and specifically rebuilding FP's.

I would steer as far away from "typical" fireplace shops(shops selling woodstoves/inserts)as possible.Another avenue would be if you know of some older contractors that could give you either a name(mason) or possible help with an assessment.There is often a ton of logistics to these types of resto's that honestly,masons don't normally have to deal with......just like fireplace shops don't have a clue WRT rebuilding whole fireplaces.They are subs on these jobs,your GC is the one responsible for the thousand little things that make up the bulk of this type of work.

You are going to need firebrick,so call a real masonary yd and ask to speak to their traveling salesman........Good luck,in one sense it's not that big of a job.But that's to folks who've been involved with this.To the first timer it seems overwhelming.Be careful "price shopping" and trying to get exact estimates.It dosen't sit well with a lot of folks in this area(too complicated).

[Kent A Bathurst]

..........Be careful "price shopping" and trying to get exact estimates.......

The key point, IMO, in this thread. You should not be shopping for a price. You should be vetting / qualifying expertise. The price is what it is, in this particular instance, once you know you have the right guy on board.

BTDT on non-fireplace critical resto items in houses 100 yrs old +/-.

[Tom M King]

This is not a Rumsford fireplace, and not worth talking about converting it to one. They're great. I built a house with a 5' one once, and it kept us warm all Winter while I was building that house, even before windows were in. Not only is the firebox distinctly shaped, but the throat too. I've seen many fireplaces that had worked for a couple of hundred years before firebricks. I'd want regular, high-fired bricks at least three bricks thick, with no cracks. If the firebox is in bad enough shape to need rebuilding, by all means replace it with modern firebricks. That one absolutely needs some help, but I can't tell how much from the pictures.

I'd find a good, local brick mason, who builds chimneys, and talk to him.

[Mark Bolton]

A Rumford fireplace is simply a single type, or design, of a fireplace pertaining to its height, width, depth, and throat design. It would have no bearing on a firebox that in no way meets the specific dimensions of a Rumford. The Rumford relies on a tall, shallow, firebox to radiate the fires heat to the room before its lost to the chimney. If you have a firebox that is in no way relevant to the Rumford principles what point would that research serve? Beyond that, Rumford made his mark long before the days of firebrick. I am in no way saying firebrick is not a valuable asset nowadays but that said, many many fireplaces in historic homes have no firebrick in the box.

[Mel Fulks]

I've been told by knowledgeable people that fire boxes used in 18th century were parged with mixtures of plaster, manure,etc. to protect the ordinary red brick from deteriorating . But when I have been on tours of privately owned houses , there is always a fire going with no coating and some of the owners have never heard of the coatings.

[Jim Matthews]

Whatever you do must pass local fire code.

Your local code inspector should come out, free of charge.
They will be able to say what needs doing,
and may even provide a lead.

If it was me, I would put a freestanding soapstone stove in the opening,
and drop a stainless steel liner through the flue.

[Brian W Smith]

O.K....I'll admit to the technical aspects of an "original" Rumford fireplace being misused in today's mason's vocabulary.And could make an argument for this being semantics....as most bricklayers here simply call their fireboxes "Rumford style".This is to include bricklayers working on Thom. Jefferson's Monticello,as well as dzs of other historic brick restos(leaders in the field)...........but that wasn't my intention(technical discussion on the matter).It was to,cut to the chase as far as the OP finding pertinent info about FP design.

So,apologies to the group for that mistake.........best of luck with your,whatever it is FP!

[Michael Weber]

Thanks for all the info. I believe my fireplace style would be be referred to as "Hole in the wall". It has no damper but depended on the inserts damper so if I do go with a working FP it going to require considerable work. I will have it cleaned unless I go with another insert or stove that has a stainless liner. Regardless which way I proceed I want to utilize outside air for combustion. This all started because my wife wanted the ugly brick facade and raised hearth replaced. One thing always leads to another.:(

[Larry Edgerton]

If you have the money and really want a real fireplace, tear that down and start over. That is as you have said a hole in the wall.

Vermont American makes some very beautiful inserts, and with a proper flue that is safe would provide the fire you wish to see and heat the house. More importantly it would not be a heat loss when not in use. Best bet money wise.

My father was a masonry contractor that specialized in fireplaces, and I can say that without knowing what is behind that and how it is built I would not even consider building a fire in that. Burning a house down is no way to enjoy a fire.

A true Rumsford is much more complicated than just the firebox, there are specific rules and formulas for everything all the way to the top. They work well, but they must be burned continually to do so, something most people are not ready to do. My dad built one in my ex's house when it was still mine and it worked very well, but required more wood than a stove so we only used it in the cold spells that were longer.

Firebrick are not a necessity, but those look like common brick in the back of the firebox, the worst choice. Firebrick were invented for a reason. Fires. They were the solution to a common problem, piles of ashes. Cars did not have airbags, but that does not make them a bad thing.

Find a masonry contractor with a long record of a sterling reputation, and take his advise. In the business I see people look for the contractor that tells them what they want to hear all to often. When you meet with them don't even voice your desire until you have heard their recommendation.

Larry

[Dan Hunkele]

I had an arched front fireplace that was leaky and useless. I decided to tear it out and wall over it as it broke the room up anyway. When I was done it looked just like your picture. When tearing it out I found an igloo shaped fire box with a damper built in and tied into the flue built inside the square space. The front was red brick out to the sides and high enough for a mantel. Yours may have been similar originally and someone tore it out and put the insert in. It would still be a good idea to have the flue checked out.