CerMark Medal Engraving Tips needed

[Kenneth H Brown]

Trying to engraving this running medal with cermark. Tried a variety of settings on my 30W Epilog Mini. Can't seem to get cermark Black to stick.
Any suggestions or tips appreciated. Thanks

299357

[Kev Williams]

That appears to be brass, Cermark doesn't work well with some brass at all, like 'engravers' brass. I laser etch brass cowbells, the brass they plate them with is recycled ammo brass, which takes a lot better than engravers brass. My 40w LS900 will leave a mark but it's not permanent at all. My 80w Triumph leaves a 'reasonably' permanent mark, but just a little abrasion will remove part of it. I give the bells 2 heavy clear coats to seal the black on.

[Dan Hintz]

30W is unlikely to leave a lasting mark with Cermark...

[Bill George]

I found the spec sheet with the product really does not point out, but you need a Lot of power to make the stuff stick. I could not make it work with my old tube, the new one has a lot more power and not a problem.

[Bruce Volden]

30W is unlikely to leave a lasting mark with Cermark...

Um, Dan, I beg to differ. My 1st machines were 25W LMI's and I did lotsa (Cerdec - then - Cermark now) markings.
I will admit these were for stainless steel switch plates, receptacles, control plates etc.
But yes!, never had luck with Al, brass, MOST chromes, Au, Ag,--oh well I tried and there wasn't a SMC back then!!
Boy I could have learnt faster had there been.

Bruce

[Dan Hintz]

Um, Dan, I beg to differ. My 1st machines were 25W LMI's and I did lotsa (Cerdec - then - Cermark now) markings.
I will admit these were for stainless steel switch plates, receptacles, control plates etc.
But yes!, never had luck with Al, brass, MOST chromes, Au, Ag,--oh well I tried and there wasn't a SMC back then!!
Boy I could have learnt faster had there been.

Bruce

Soooo, you're disagreeing with me, and then agreeing with me that 30W is unlikely to leave a mark on the OP's piece?

[Mike Null]

30W is unlikely to leave a lasting mark with Cermark..


I disagree with your general statement as well. A 30 watt will readily mark stainless steel with Cermark. Not so with brass and aluminum.

[Gary Hair]

30W is unlikely to leave a lasting mark with Cermark...

I haven't done much brass but what little I have done worked fine for me and my 30 watt laser. Very slow speed and full power, but it worked. Stainless, on the other hand, works really well!

[Dan Hintz]

I disagree with your general statement as well. A 30 watt will readily mark stainless steel with Cermark. Not so with brass and aluminum.

Guys, it wasn't a general statement (though it seems to read that way, I admit)... the OP asked about brass, I responded appropriately.

[Gary Hair]

Guys, it wasn't a general statement (though it seems to read that way, I admit)... the OP asked about brass, I responded appropriately.

I'm not one to pick nits... ok, I am... the OP didn't specify the material, it was the second post that "assumed" it was brass. I assumed you were responding the the OP's question and making a general statement about 30 watt machines and Cermark, not responding the the second post re: brass.

[Richard Rumancik]

Although it is possible that it is brass, there is little evidence other than the slight color in the photo. Some higher cost medals may be made in brass, but medals are often made from zinc, pewter, and other low-melting temperature alloys that can be spin-cast. The catalogs often don't even say which metal is used. Medals can be colored after casting to look like brass or whatever finish you like. So I would be reluctant to identify an alloy based on the color of the item without any other evidence. On top of the unknown proprietary platings, there is often lacquers and coatings to prevent oxidation of the medal. So now you have an unknown substrate, with unknown plating, with a possible organic coating on top. Most of which the supplier will not disclose.

It is very challanging to mark such an item with CerMark and even more challenging to give advice on what will work as we really don't know what the item is. These types of items are R&D projects. If it doesn't work right away, the required R&D often isn't worth the effort unless there are large volumes and repeat business involved.

[Bruce Dash]

Given all that has been said about what will not work, what is the best way to handle brass. I have a 50w Univesal with a 1.5 lens. I've been asked to run a sample job for someone that if everything works out will become a standing order. I have not order the brass as of this evening, will most likely do so from Laserbits, just to see how ans what settings I'll need. Any help or input would be great.
Thanks in advance and I really think is one of the best forums I've seen, lot of great advice.

[Dan Hintz]

A 1.5FL lens will net you a good boost in power density, and with 50W behind you, you shouldn't have a problem.

[Richard Rumancik]

Bruce, the problem with brass is its high thermal conductivity. CerMark can work on brass, but you can only mark at about 25% the speed as used for stainless. So although you might be able to do it, the question is whether you can do it profitably. If I charge $1.00 to mark a logo on stainless, will the customer be willing to pay $3.00 or $4.00 to mark the same logo on brass? In my markets, I'd say no.

The LMM6000 would probably need a speed of about 20 ips for your laser. You could start with that setting. But you really need to test before quoting as there are a lot of variables.

[Mike Null]

Johnson Plastics will probably send you a sample of the new LM6060 which has been developed for brass.

[Richard Rumancik]

Mike, I have been trying to confirm that LMM6060 works better for brass but I came up with nothing. I don't see anything from Ferro that says this. Laserbits seems to add some hype in their advertisments ("new technology" , "improved performance") but these do not seem to be Ferro's words. I understand that this product was developed so it could be shipped by air as it is water-based. That seems to be the motivation behind releasing the product.

Ferro seems to say LMM 6000 and 6060 are interchangeable performance-wise. They have a common data sheet. They still suggest that aluminum needs to be run at 1/4 the speed as stainless. (No mention of brass.) So I have been unable to come up with any evidence that this product works better for brass. Do you remember where you saw this info?

Does anybody have any actual test results?

[Mike Null]

Richard
I believe I saw that info from the rep at Johnson Plastics and, I believe from Sean Wier, who works for Ferro. I'm not making any wagers but that is my recollection and the reason I tested it. (my test failed but my laser was putting out only 20 watts at the time.)

[Keith Colson]

I had a friend that did brass really well on the laser. He spray painted it. Lasered off the paint, then acid etched, then removed the paint. I am not sure what he used for the acid etch, but brake cleaner takes the paint off really easily.

Cheers
Keith

[AL Ursich]

Clear coat the brass then laser off the clear coat and use a oxidizer.

ENGRAVING-MACHINE-NEW-HERMES-ALUMINUM-BRASS-OXIDATION-OXIDIZER-/400800632026?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d51944cda

AL

[Mike Null]

Al

I have never had any luck with trying to laser away clear coat. There always seems to be small areas that don't clean up and ruin the job.