Japanese Marking Gauges - a Pleasant Surprise

[David Weaver]

As part of the discussion that was brought up here about the Kinshiro gauges, I went out to stu's page and to ebay and looked around at the options for mortise marking gauges. Long ago, I had bought one of the really cheap gauges from japan woodworker and decided that it was not worth the trouble to clean up (likely something I wouldn't conclude now, but I didn't know what to do back then to get the blades to slide over each other freely).

So I bought the gauge that costs about $130 on stu's page because it looked like it would mark narrow mortises, and then went out to ebay. I found this gauge. I didn't know anything about it other than that it looked honest, it was cheap, and the irons appear to be very well made. I'd presume this was a workman's grade gauge that came out of miki in droves, but not at $17 like the really inexpensive gauges. After ordering it, the lady doing the sale said her husband had used it and he was a professional. The way the irons are sharpened suggests it, too. You can't see in the picture, but the bevels are perfectly flat and the knife edges are perfectly clean and sharp with no nicks or damage.

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look at those irons!! I bought it for $28, figuring that if the wood was junked in any way shape or form, I could just remake a gauge and those two irons would be worth the cost of admission.

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It will definitely mark a 6mm mortise, which is the smallest size I normally make. Everything on it is slick just like you'd expect it to be if a professional was using it, the irons are super smooth adjusting against each other and the gauge. And it marks a mortise much more easily than my pin gauge. Kind of wish I hadn't spent $130 on a new one!!

I guess the moral is if you're sometimes cheap like me, look for these on peebay - they don't bring much, and this gauge can't be far off from a really high dollar gauge when it comes to function. And it's shape (and how properly it's maintained) has something to do with the fact that it was used by a professional and not experimented on by someone getting their first gauge.

[Derek Cohen]

David

I posted another option to the Kinshiro some time ago (as you know I have used a Kinshiro for a few years) ...

Tools from Japan sell the Large Ryuma for $17. This comes with 2 blades for mortices ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/KinshiroOnTheCheap_html_561ca726.jpg

The bones are decent but need work. The body is about 3/4 the thickness of the Kinshiro. The blades are a little rough but have potential. The wing nut is a disaster - too difficult to adjust with one hand. And how to adjust one blade with one hand?

Here is the completed modification ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/KinshiroOnTheCheap_html_2e0e1b34.jpg

Alongside the Kinshiro ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/KinshiroOnTheCheap_html_m6481cde7.jpg

Article on my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/KinshiroOnTheCheap.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

David,

I have that gauge, or one just like it, I acquired it back in the 70's. Wanting another was what started me down the road to buying a Kinshiro. If it is the same as mine it will be a very good gauge for you.

ken

[Matthew N. Masail]

Derek, I Fail to understand why to body need to be thicker? would it not be enough to do all the other work (which is hardly work) and leave to body as it is?

[Derek Cohen]

Matthew

The thinner body just did not feel comfortable in the hand, and made it harder to grip.

Look at the thickness of the Kinshiro and the cheapie.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Matthew

The thinner body just did not feel comfortable in the hand, and made it harder to grip.

Look at the thickness of the Kinshiro and the cheapie.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I'd imagine kinshiro didn't come by the thickness of that gauge by accident. The older one I pictured above is also wide, and it's a treat to use. Maybe not as good as the kinshiro, but very nice action.

I rarely luck across something that's been used professionally and is in condition like that one, one that is slick, properly prepared and well adjusted. It's only downside is that it has a strong smell of cigarettes! :)

It does appear, also, that kinshiro's blades (and the ones for the more expensive line stu carries) are forge welded to the tangs, and the version I have above are bent. The line stu uses are stainless tangs with super blue blades forge welded to them, an interesting combination.

[David Weaver]

David,

I have that gauge, or one just like it, I acquired it back in the 70's. Wanting another was what started me down the road to buying a Kinshiro. If it is the same as mine it will be a very good gauge for you.

ken

Glad to hear it, Ken. It seems that some of the good quality middle of the road stuff has evaporated, though I noticed that So has a line that's probably equivalent to this in quality (as in decent and straightforward, but not finished as well as kinshiro)..

[ken hatch]

Matthew

The thinner body just did not feel comfortable in the hand, and made it harder to grip.

Look at the thickness of the Kinshiro and the cheapie.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I agree, I've tried the cheap ones and they do not fit in my hand as well. They will make a mark but it is easier to let the stock wander because of the way they fit.

BTW, I like your mods, it still doesn't fix the loose iron track but I expect a couple of small shims would fix that.

ken

[Brian Holcombe]

It's from japan, the smell of cigarettes is very authentic :p I bought a book on bonsai that was of a similar situation to what you described with the gauge and it smelled like I left it in my humidor for a few weeks.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

I agree, I've tried the cheap ones and they do not fit in my hand as well. They will make a mark but it is easier to let the stock wander because of the way they fit.

BTW, I like your mods, it still doesn't fix the loose iron track but I expect a couple of small shims would fix that.

ken

Hi Ken

There is no slop in the modified version ...

The fit is firm and, indeed, I needed to file finger grips in the shafts to aid in adjusting them.

Since I conversed the gauges to single blade use, there is a shim under the blade to raise the blade into position.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/KinshiroOnTheCheap_html_79d09510.jpg

What slop are you referring to?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

Derek,

The last couple I picked up had a lot of slop in the iron track enough that the iron would slip 5 or so degrees in use even if locked down pretty tight. I expect if I mod one I will convert it to a single iron as well.

ken

[David Weaver]

It's from japan, the smell of cigarettes is very authentic :p I bought a book on bonsai that was of a similar situation to what you described with the gauge and it smelled like I left it in my humidor for a few weeks.

The lady selling them was in texas, but her husband may have been japanese. She had a double-arm marking gauge, too (which I also bought), and most of the stuff the guy had was pretty honest looking stuff (and most of it is japanese).

I pictured the same thing, japanese guy smoking a cigarette while working - a lot of the videos on youtube show the same thing.

[Pat Barry]

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What is the rabbet cut into the tool handle for? When I first looked at it I thought it would help register the gage to the proper height and that your gage was assembled incorrectly.

[David Weaver]

I'm not sure. I though the same thing when I took it out of the box, but it's obvious that the relief for the blades is cut in the other side. It might be finger relief for a grip in case the gauge is on a flat surface. No clue. I admittedly don't know anything about japanese gauges other than that I like this one.

[Derek Cohen]

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Hi David

I've just had another look a your gauge. It appears that the centre blade guide has loosened and shifted away from the main body/fence. It is no longer flush with the face. This will restrict its use.

Tap it back and re-glue.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Vanzant]

David,
After Derek's observation....has the loose beam been inserted upside down? It appears the screw bottoms on the beam, not the irons. What keeps the irons from moving?

[David Weaver]

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Hi David

I've just had another look a your gauge. It appears that the centre blade guide has loosened and shifted away from the main body/fence. It is no longer flush with the face. This will restrict its use.

Tap it back and re-glue.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It's designed to be like that. There is a metal fixture in the middle of the wooden beam that has a hole in it for the screw to go through, so it stays in that position fixed (it does so even with the screw removed) Can you specify where that would restrict its use?

[David Weaver]

(the version that hida carries is designed to work the same way).

[Derek Cohen]

It's designed to be like that. There is a metal fixture in the middle of the wooden beam that has a hole in it for the screw to go through, so it stays in that position fixed (it does so even with the screw removed) Can you specify where that would restrict its use?

Hi David

I found this on Hida Tools ..

http://www.hidatool.com/image/cache/data/ProductImages/woodworking/marking/kama_oak_kikuhamon/w_d_kikuhamon_kamakebiki_L_01-650x650.jpg

As far as I am aware, it is not designed to work this way. Every other picture of a Ryuma or Kebiki features it the same design as a Kinshiro ...

http://www.japan-tool.com/hamono/Kehiki/Kehiki2.jpg

How could yours do this (setting the exact depth of a board) ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/KinshiroOnTheCheap_html_28f206d6.jpg

... or have the visibility advantage of these gauges when setting a mortice ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AHandcutMorticeandTenonPrimer-BlindMortice_html_557894d4.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

No problem. The irons project well below the wooden arm sticking out and have a lot of travel either way, forward or back. The wooden arm only covers the thickness of the tangs, and the rest of the blade is below them. I don't know if it sticks out like that to keep the blades from flexing or what.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Stu also sells some cheap cutting gauges, anyone try them?

[Mike Holbrook]

Matthew, Derek posted a picture and comments on the better of those gauges in the second post in this thread. David ordered a more expensive 2 blade kegaki from TFJ recently. The kegaki David ordered is more money than Stu's economy gauges but much less than the Kinshiro. Ken Hatch started another thread "Yesterday's Mail Had a Nice Surprise" in which he comments about the kinshiro gauge he found and bought recently, there is more information in that thread too.

The kegaki David ordered looks like the kinshiro without the harder wood insert where the gauge rides against the object it is marking.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Mike, I have read this entire thread over with interest. Stu have a "regular" type gauge as well with a wooden beam and a blade in the beam, like a western gauge would. I'm wondering if anyone has given them a try?


The gauge David ordered has a special feature the allows you to lock the two metal cutter together at a fixed distance and than move them together, very convenient.

[Mike Holbrook]

Matthew, these gauges are relatively similar and a little confusing to differentiate between. I was assuming you were interested in the Ryuma gauges Stu sells. The first picture in the second post in this thread is Derek's shot of his large Ryuma.

I had understood from Stu a number of months back that he could not get kinshiro gauges any more. I think the maker retired or something. Ken Hatch found a few kinshiro gauges still in stock at a place or two. I think the prices have been increased though as these are probably the last there will ever be. Stu informed me that he sells a gauge that is similar. The gauge Stu mentioned is listed under precision marking gauges on his web site, precision "kebiki" gauges to be precise. I believe David ordered the gauge Stu mentioned, his 2 blade "kegaki" marking gauge.

The Ryuma Derek mentions above uses a much more economical locking nut that Derek has apparently encountered issues with. I want try to explain the differences in the blades but the blades on the kinshiro and kegaki gauges are much better. The kegai gauge Stu now sells has a few differences from the kinshiro pictures posted here on SMC. The kegagi, at least in Stu's picture, uses a second locking nut on the section of the blades that slide over each other that the kinshiro does not have. If you look at the pictures the kinshiro gauges have grooves in the top blade that apparently serve to move/position it. Both the kinshiro and kegagi use hard Japanese wood for the fence and marking arm. The kinshiro has an even harder wood insert where the gauge might wear against the object being marked.

David speculates in the other thread that Stu may be ordering the kegagi gauges from another location in Japan. If this is the case, the picture on Stu's page may not be exactly what David ends up with, which is one reason I was hoping to see a picture/comments form David before ordering a kegagi gauge. I like the locking nuts on the kegagi gauge picture on Stu's site but I could see these nuts and or the locking mechanism, woods...changing between "models".

[lowell holmes]

I replaced the locking bolt with a ss hex head metric bolt from Lowe's. It works great.

I couldn't find a brass one like Derek used.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Lowell

Search eBay for "knurled brass nut".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

David speculates in the other thread that Stu may be ordering the kegagi gauges from another location in Japan. If this is the case, the picture on Stu's page may not be exactly what David ends up with, which is one reason I was hoping to see a picture/comments form David before ordering a kegagi gauge. I like the locking nuts on the kegagi gauge picture on Stu's site but I could see these nuts and or the locking mechanism, woods...changing between "models".

He may stock it, I don't know. The reason I made that comment is not because I expect the gauge might look different (it will almost certainly look like the picture), but because stuff that comes from another shop has to get to stu first. I don't think he stocks most of the stuff he has, but the market for tools in japan is pretty organized and it just means a couple of extra days to get the tools from either the maker or an agent for the maker. If stu's the agent for them (or effectively there isn't one), then it just comes straight from him.

Other sellers operate the same way, like fujibato and to some extent takeshi kuroda will also take special orders if you can communicate with him. It's a little different than here where not having something stocked either means drop shipped or an unknown wait time.

At any rate, I expect it'll be identical to the one stu shows, but I'll take a picture of it and post it here when it comes. Stu does stock the more common things (like the popular stones), and he may stock some of the other tools.

[Mike Holbrook]

Maybe these screws & nuts Lowell?
http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware/page.aspx?p=44203&cat=3,41306,41311
I suppose one could re-drill and tap.

The wing nut, on the Ryuma picture I see, looks like it has a screw attached to it vs a seperate screw & nut? I suspect positioning the two blades is harder without a nut & screw or filed ridges to work with. I also suspect that for one nut to lock both blades against each other, holding them in their correct relative positions and locking them that way against the wooden fence requires additional pressure? I know it requires considerable pressure to lock my Cullen gauges up. Maybe the kinshiro gauge is just made to a more exacting standard?

[Matthew N. Masail]

I was interested why no one has said anything about these, they are dirt cheap.299348

[Brian Holcombe]

The lady selling them was in texas, but her husband may have been japanese. She had a double-arm marking gauge, too (which I also bought), and most of the stuff the guy had was pretty honest looking stuff (and most of it is japanese).

I pictured the same thing, japanese guy smoking a cigarette while working - a lot of the videos on youtube show the same thing.

My understanding is that it's like the 1960's over there, everyone wears a suit to work, drinks with the boss and smokes.

[David Weaver]

Probably only because nobody has one. I like a cutting gauge like that, but have a western gauge already for it, and a long panel cutting guage (that I got from stu, I think it's actually a drywall tool).

I'm lazy enough that I like a gauge that has a threaded locking mechanism, though I can't imagine it makes much difference.

the good thing about those inexpensive cutting gauges is that you can pretty much fettle them care free without worrying about damaging their value.

I know a lot of the gauges have wear plates on them, or in the case if kinshiro, something else bolted on, but the old japanese white oak gauges I've seen never look too warn, and that one is made of white oak, so I can't imagine there would be wear problems with it.

[Derek Cohen]

I was interested why no one has said anything about these, they are dirt cheap.299348

Because, if you are going to get a Japanese cutting gauge, get one with knives that extend to the end, and are not inserted into an arm.

The Kinshiro/Ryuma type have a similar advantage to the wheel types that are sold by Lee Valley and Tite-Mark - they have the best visibility and are the easiest to adjust to depth. The wheels have the most control while the knives cut deepest. Look for gauges that can be easily adjusted with one hand.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Shea]

I will be very interested to your gauge from Stu when it shows up David. I have eyed that exact gauge a couple times but never actually pulled the trigger. For the price it should be very nice.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Because, if you are going to get a Japanese cutting gauge, get one with knives that extend to the end, and are not inserted into an arm.


Regards from Perth

Derek

I'm sorry if it seems like it should be obvious, but I do not understand why I would prefer the full blade type over the blade in the arm, from a practical stand point.
I'm very tight on cash right now but I need a couple gauges, do these cut any less good than the other kind? I don't mind the visibility thing so much or one hand ability, sure it's nice but not critical, though the wedge type can be adjusted one handed by tapping either end of the beam on the bench. I have a Veritas wheel gauge so I'm pretty much covered for dovetail base lines.

Thanks.

[Randy Karst]

Yes, I actually have both of them; the less expensive gauge and the precision "Kegaki" (more expensive gauge). The less expensive gauge benefits from a significant amount of "fettling" but is both usable and useful - I like what Derek has done with his. However, once you have and use the more expensive one, its pretty much game over-I love this thing. I have several marking gauges but this one is in my hand more than any other (including a Hamilton's and a Tite-mark; having said that, each has their niche). David, I think you will find a lot of enjoyment owning and using the more expensive gauge; its probably the closest thing to a Kinshiro now available.

[Derek Cohen]

I'm sorry if it seems like it should be obvious, but I do not understand why I would prefer the full blade type over the blade in the arm, from a practical stand point.
I'm very tight on cash right now but I need a couple gauges, do these cut any less good than the other kind? I don't mind the visibility thing so much or one hand ability, sure it's nice but not critical, though the wedge type can be adjusted one handed by tapping either end of the beam on the bench. I have a Veritas wheel gauge so I'm pretty much covered for dovetail base lines.

Thanks.

Hi Matthew

This thread is a lot like the sharpening thread that is now discussing the different CBN wheels. It is well to remind ourselves of the law of diminishing returns.

One does not need expensive and exotic tools for building furniture. They are a luxury - yes, they can work better and they will likely bring more pleasure when used - but how would anyone know this without something to contrast against? I would never recommend any of this stuff for those starting out. They don't need it and they would not appreciate it. The cheap stuff works, and works well enough not to question it.

The cheap gauges work. They worked before I modified them. They work a whole lot better since I modified them. There is still a difference between them and the Kinshiro I own.

I toyed with the idea of buying another Kinshiro because they are not going to be something easy to replace. However, for $350 (with shipping) it is a lot to spend on a little piece of wood, and there are a lot of other gauges that will strike a line, and do so as accurately, and with as much beauty. I decided to pass. I may regret this in the future when they cost many times what they do now, but the logic will (hopefully) remain the same.

The cheap Japanese gauges should work out of the box. Note, however, that you do get what you pay for - the steel is not great. I found mine both poorly sharpened and coarse. The edges needed to be refined, and even then they do not hold an edge as I like for as long as I want. The Kinshiro has never been sharpened! And I have had it a couple of years. My experience with single knife gauges is not positive - the knives are wedged in tightly and are difficult to loosen and adjust to a projection of choice. It is all a compromise of features and costs.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Matthew you have fallen in with a bunch of frequently older, a little OCD, woodworkers who frequently are less concerned with price than esoteric function.

Derek's reasons for preferring double blades make sense to me. Even using the double for making single lines one has the option of having the cleaner side of the knife line on either side of the cut. I guess I am back in the double knife corner again.

The heads on the locking screws used on the Kegaki look very unique to me. I don't think I have ever seen screw/nut heads shaped like that. This was the "feature" of the kegaki in Stu's picture that I was not sure would wind up part of the current model. Thanks to David for explaining a little about Japanese tool market organization. Sounds like we can expect specs/features/appearance on these Japanese tools to remain more consistent than is the case with US tools.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks very much guys, it's good to hear you put it into perspective, even though I feel I have a clear view when you guys talk a certain way I start wondering if I'm missing something.

I will go ahead, soon, and get a few of the cheapie ones. I think I can turn 2 of them into fixed pin mortise gauges and leave 2 as is. of course I will refine them to work as smoothly as I can get them. for 6$ into not worth my time to try and make them and I DO like the white oak, if the ones I get are as nice as the photo.

[Kees Heiden]

Well, I could use a better morticing gauge too, but I have a question about these single bevel, knife type ones. When marking the mortice this seems perfect. The bevel is on the waste side. But how about the tenon? Then I think I would prefer the bevels on the other side. At the moment I use a cheap pin guage, and that leaves bevels on both sides, so the pain is equally distributed over both the mortice and the tenon.

In fact the mortice is being ruled by the mortice chisel, so the side of the bevels isn't too important, but the tenon is sawed, so there I would prefer the bevels to be the other way around.

Any comments, before I pull the plug on these?

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'd also like to hear comments on that. with a thin scribed line I highly doubt how much it matter. unless the line is thick then it might effect where the chisel registers by 0.1-5mm, but those with experience will know. when sawing a tenon I imagine it matters a lot more from which SIDE you make a knife wall with a chisel the guide the saw or on which side of the line you start the saw, than the miniature geometry of the line itself.

[Brian Holcombe]

Matthew, I think it's probably best to get one of these in time. I have managed to do everything so far with a steel square, panel gauge and a marking gauge with a knife edge. I think I'll get a good mortise gauge soon enough, but you can make due without one for quite some time.

I don't mean to imply that they are unnecessary, but rather that you can work around not having one until they are able to be afforded.

[ken hatch]

I'm on the road so unable to post images but my gauge from the 70's is the same as David's and as he pointed out the irons extend enough the beam does not interfer.

[Reinis Kanders]

I have been happy with Lee Valley pin wheel double mortise gauge, works well, especially if you get the extra little thing that locks both bars together. That said I just ordered fancy gauge from the Tools from Japan to see what that is like and I sort of felt a "need" for it:)