Kitchen Cabinet Material Advice

[Kevin Post]

I'm ready to get started making cabinets for my new house. I'll be making all of the cabinets for the kitchen and bathrooms, some built-ins and utility cabinets for the laundry room.

For those of you who build kitchen cabinets, do you have any advice on which materials you prefer for the cabinet boxes? For the kitchen, I will be making face-frame cabinets from cherry. Drawer boxes of maple. Hinges and slides from Blum.

I have a Kreg Jig and plan to use it along with biscuits to construct the cabinet boxes and face frames. I'm trying to determine what is the best material to use for the inside. I'd appreciate a discussion of the Pros and Cons of each.


Particleboard, MDF, Plywood?
Melamine-coated or do I simply paint the innards?
Do I buy the white melamine or do I use the wood-grain stuff? Cost?
Hot-melt edgebanding or pressure-sensitive?
Whose product would you recommend? (Panolam, Uniboard, Roseburg, others?)
Which should I avoid?
Where can I buy it?
Do the Kreg coarse-thread screws work well with both particleboard and MDF?
Finish? I'm leaning toward spraying Sherwin Williams Precat lacquer with their Vinyl Sealer. Each is about $40 - $50 per gallon. Other recommendations?


Your input is certainly appreciated!

-Kevin

[jack duren]

do you have a budget?....jack

[Kevin Post]

No budget, per se... I need to build them for less than I can buy them. I can buy 'em for about $14,000 but where's the fun in that?

I want decent quality because I'll have to look at and use them. I want them to last. I don't want to be embarrased when LOML tells people I built them.

[jack duren]

reason i ask is almost everytime someone says i want the best a budget is never mentioned. cabinet materials, solid surface tops, sink fixtures and hardware can make a huge dent in a cabinet project.

interiors of cabinets are an individual choice. even on mine im not going to buy the "best" materials. this area is not the most important to me. im a " within reason/sufficient" type of person.

particle board,mdf,plywood,etc are all options. you can spend anywhere fron $20-$150 a sheet for the "best".

im a melamine man for my interiors. makes me happy and thats what counts....jack

[Brad Hammond]

kevin, i'm not a pro cabinet guy, but i just built my parents a set and i'm about to start my cabinets as well, and i used 3/4 birch ply. when i got out of high school i worked framing houses for a while and saw that ALL the cabinets in this area were built with 3/4 birch, but looking around over the last year i've noticed everyone using 1/2 birch ply. hmmmmmmmmm prices go up and they use cheaper materals.........nuff said.

i wouldn't knock any other materials anyone else uses at all. this is just my preference. jack is correct.......melamine is great for interiors!

cya
brad

[Corey Hallagan]

Good thread Kevin, Ihave this same project coming up. I can tell you though, for making your cabinet boxes our of MDF and partical board, you are better off using confirmant screws and the drill bit that goes with them. The Kreg will work great on plywood and plywood variants and hard and softwood but the screws are a hard mate for mdf and particle board. The confirmant screws are made especially for those products. I was told this when I built my shop cabinets and I am so glad I used them.

Jack, would you use plywood in your business for the carcases or particleboard/mdf with melamine surface? If so how do you assemble the carcases? You can't buy melamine coated plywood can you? Sorry Kevin, hope I am not hijacking your thread but I think we are both after the same info.

Corey

[jack duren]

assembly of melamine carcasses can be tricky. i do not use conformat screws,etc for assembly. i do use a 1/4 crown staple gun with dados and melamine glue.

you can with a little configuration, assemble a melamine cabinet without a "single" staple hole in any visable area. just gotta understand the construction.

i do not waste money on speacial screws nor on pocket screws for facve to carcass assembly......jack

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=21534&stc=1

[Roddy Thibault]

Were I work at we use 5/8 melamine. its cheap and easy to clean.
ya its not as strong as plywood but it has to be finshed.(plywood tends to warp). we use low root screws and they dont cost lots.
like what jack said there are ,many ways a cabnet can be put to gether to hide screws/staples ect. some ppl use screw some use staples,some use dowels

it comes down to preference

[Steve Elias]

I'm in the middle of a set of kitchen cabinets and the few pros I know say I'm overbuilding with 3/4 BB ply for the carcases, but I love the quality of the BB ply relative to melamine, particle board, et al, and recommend it. THe face frames, rails and stiles are poplar, but if I didn't already have a bunch of poplar lying around I probably would have used soft maple. MDF was/is too heavy for my tastes, too susceptible to water damage, and so on.

I'm spray finishing the set of Shaker-style cabinets with white lacquer and recommend you consider Oxford Ultima Spray Lacquer from Target Coatings.

If I weren't a hobbyist who does the occasional kitchen project thanks to word-of-mouth, I would probably select more economical procedures and materials. There are many ways to build good cabinets - go with what you're comfortable working with.

BTW, I spray the upper cab panels before assembly because I use french cleats and a back panel that is dadoed in. If and when I can spray assembled cabinets with the back off I go that route. Obviously I don't enjoy spraying cabs that are already assembled with the back on and you might not either so I suggest a trial finsihing run before you assemble all of your cabinets.

Steve

[Brian Jarnell]

I would suggest you use these,makes life easier.

http://www.cabinetparts.com/shop_2003/euro_hinges/blum/blum_hinges.php?SID=1121320790.204774560442d5ff565 222f.071305

[Alden Miller]

I guess it also depends on if the inside of your cabinets will be visible (glass doors). I prefer a plywood carcass. Lighter, easy to use, looks good. I've done quite a few with birch interiors and a different hardwood for the face frame.

I am going to redo my kitchen in cherry, I bought cherry ply for the carcasses and I'll be attaching a solid piece of cherry to hide the plywood edging on any visible edges (bottoms of upper cabinets).

It's like you said, when my wife shows the cabinets off I want to impress.

-Alden

[Jerry Golick]

Good thread topic.

I'm a big fan of using a high quality melamine (Uniboard in particular). You can get them in a range of colours, textures and finishes. You save time since you don't have to do any finish work. They are easy to clean and maintain.

As long as you join them properly (I tend to use confirmat screws which do require a special drill and driver bit) they are uber-strong. The only real issue that I see has to do with doing a face-frame construction. To make life easier, use biscuits only where a panel is going to be exposed.

I would recommend going with a full-piece back to keep the carcass square which will add weight to each box, but will also make it a snap to get everything square. I build my cabs frameless, but I don't see any problem putting frames onto melamine, since you'll have the PB exposed along the front edges.

I use Salice hinges, but I hear the Blums are good. I would go with the clip-on variant for sure.

Have a good one.

[Earl Kelly]

Kevin, something else to consider. You can get prefinished Birch and Maple plywood. It has a really tough finish on it. Just be a little considerate of the finish when cutting, not hard to do, and once the box is assembled inside is done. Also, it should only be a few bucks more than unfinished ply.

I like the look of the Melamine interiors, but I don't like the durability of pb/mdf. If you ever have a plumbing problem, like a pipe breaking, you may have to tear out and rebuild. The pb and mdf are going to soak up the water like a sponge. Plywood will still be OK provided they don't soak for a week.

Good luck with your project.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I would only use Birch plywood for mine (unless I could afford Mahogany ply). I don't like Melamine at all and I especially despise any chip board material (for any application).

[Mark Singer]

Real 3/4" plywood makes a good carcass.. Birch is fine ...even shop grade. should be a wood core like Veneer core. MDF core is fine for doors

[David Pettibone]

Hello Kevin


I don't do a lot of cabinets, but I can tell you what works for me. I agree with Kelly on the birch plywood, which I use 1/2". My method is what Jack described. I plow a dado in the face frame and glue/clamp them together. With the surface area of the dado joint combined with the glue and clamping pressure, it's over rover! That joint is NOT coming apart. If you've measured and layed out everything properly, you've got a rock solid, square cabinet you can be proud of for years to come.

I don't even use brads or staples in the face frame, that I would have to fill in later before some kind of finish. Nor do I toe nail with brads or staples from the hidden carcass into the back of the faceframe. If you do the above, the glue will be set in an hour and your good to go. By making your face frames all at the same time and then dadoing them at the same time, it is a pretty quick and effecient method.

Now if I was going to use melamine or something other than 1/2" ply, I would still do the same thing. No screws, just glue in the dado joint and clamping pressure to boot. I learned this method out in the late 90's at a woodshow and can't remember who used it. I remember talking to the guy and he had said an old-timer taught him years before. Anyways, that is the way I would do it. It's not right or wrong, just my preference through my own personal experiences. Good luck whatever method you choose.:)


David

[Kevin Post]

There are some good responses here... Thanks!

Just so we're clear, when I say 'best', I mean best in terms of best practices. Not too expensive, not too cheap and economical when it comes to my time and effort. I need to get the cabinets built quickly so I can move on to other projects on the house.

The main advantage I see to using melamine-coated sheet goods (MDF or PB) is I won't need to mess around finishing the insides of the cabinets. I can simply cut 'em, drill 'em and put 'em together. I expect it will cost less too. The shelves will require edge banding whether I use plywood, MDF or PB. Maybe finishing the insides won't be as big of a deal as I think.

However, MDF and PB have their own set of issues; water damage, strength, they don't hold fasteners well and they're heavy. Some people don't even consider them real wood. (My all-time favorite term for MDF is termite barf. :D )

I had not considered using pre-finished plywood for the cabinets. I've actually never seen it so I'd need to do some searching for a supplier. Do you have one?

-Kevin

[Kent Parker]

I'm with Earl on the prefinished plywood. Makes the entire job faster and less of a burdon on your senses (paint fumes, thinners etc). The coated plywood I have used is very durable and recoats easily if ever needed. Much lighter than melanine or partical board so its easier on your body. Having ripped bicep tendons in both arms I am very cautious about lifting big panels.

Regarding partical board. Much of the cabinetry and shelfing in my kitchen is partical board. I notice that the drinking glasses that are stored on the PB shelves smell like the stuff and not for lack of cleaning. We have cleaned the shelves and even put down shelf paper. Still stinks. Sometimes when you walk into the kitchen after not being at home for a few days you get the distinct aroma of PB. Napa is pretty dry here so its not a humidity issue.

Prior owner of the house put down plastic laminate countertops with long miters. Did not bed them. I discovered after spilling some water in the miter. Puffed up. Arrrggggg.

I once made cabinets for a very large kitchen that were partical board covered inside and out with white Formica. Visual tolerances were 1/8" and less as all you saw were the dark edges of the Formica where the door edges met. I had to replace a number of the doors after the job was done as the partical board continued to move, not much but enough to irritate the owner.
Another thought, if you where planing on painting the cabinets, I have used a plywood called "Crezon" or MDO (medium density overlay) that is faced either one or two sided with a resin impregnated paper. Surface is very smooth and take less priming to fill. It is an exterior plywood which may have been developed for exterior signs. I've used it for boat interior cabinetry, cockpits and workbench surfaces.

Cheers,

KP

[jack duren]

#1 melamine is a good product but like any other prefinished product, more time is needed to prep for exterior finishing. keep this in mind as you build :) .

#2 those who put PB melamine and water in the same sentence must not do routine maintenance on there homes or cars. it only takes a few minutes to check for a leak under a sink. whens the last time you checked? all materials cheap or expensive arent maintenance free. you must do some preventive maintenance from time to time.

#3 a smell coming from PB? if the interiors have been prefinished or finished on site and you are getting a bad smell try sealing the particle board, obviously there is "not" a finish there :) .

#4 pre-finished materials like "euro-ply" come in a variety of woods but are not CHEAP.

#5 as far as frame to carcass assembly... i use only clamps&glue. no metal fasteners or grooves,etc. screws,biscuits,dowels or dados are a waste of "my" time but im in it for the money not the glory......

[Kent Parker]

{#3 a smell coming from PB? if the interiors have been prefinished or finished on site and you are getting a bad smell try sealing the particle board, obviously there is "not" a finish there :) .}

Jack,

Nothing should be "obvious" unless there is fact to support it. (20 years a marine inspector, sorry) ;)

As coatings are difficult at best to identify once applied, I should have mentioned that they are very well coated however with what I just don't know. Haven't investigated. I'm going to make new ones.

Additionally, water (moisture) is a great plasticizer. A plasticizer is a material which is compatible with the polymer (ie coating) and can be absorbed into the space around the polymer chains. Effectively it is like a solvent but with low permanence (low volatility).

Plasticizers, due to their compatibility with the polymer, are able to permeate into the free volume around the polymer chains. This interaction results in a few things. First, it reduces the effects of secondary bonding forces which tend to keep the polymer “stuck” together. Secondly, it increases intermolecular distance which results in some swelling and increased free volume. Kinda like expanding the mesh in a screen, the holes get larger.

So what this all means is that the old coating on my cabinets has become porous and is allowing gas out of the urea formaldehyde or phenol formaldehyde glues that were probably use to creat the stuff.

I know,I know, too much information.

But now you know.

Cheers,

KP

[Jerry Golick]

Kent,


Additionally, water (moisture) is a great plasticizer.
I don't have much in the way of a chemical-type background.

Are you saying that water will dissolve the melamine over time, or that it will dissolve the bonding agents in the PB?

Sounds nasty.

Thanks .

[Dev Emch]

Boy there have been some good posts here.

Kitchen elements are a racket! I know! If you can build your own and keep the pros at bay, your in great shape. But not everyone is a woodworker with the correct set of tools. (even a minimal set applies here... you dont need all the high end tools to do a good job)

Information is worth gold. Buy some books and get all the dirty paper you can from the borgs and esp. the kitchen design centers. But watch out for those certified kitchen designers... they can be a real pain and ask a million questions and then get flustered when you dont consider a mucho-gillion dollar job as a deal and whip out your check book.

Remember that a corner cabinet can be the hardest one to build yet its key to getting started. By installing these first, you can really simplify your life and have a great chance at getting your counter plane level. This is very important if your using stone type counter tops such as granite.

Keep in mind that granite comes in 2 cm and 3 cm sizes. The 2 cm will need a 1/2 inch plywood substrate to keep it from cracking. Let your fingers do the walking through the yellow pages. There are semi prefab granite slabs from Italy that sell for sub 20 dollars a square foot and have already been cut into counter top strips and have the front edge already done. These can really cut down on the counter costs and because they sell to the public, you can really save on installation. There are other outfits that work granite details and you can have a stove hole or sink hole done for no more than 50 or so dollars per hole.

Melamine is a type of plastic. Generally, melamine impregnated paper is bonded to both sides of an MDF substrate to form this material. The melamine is great to clean up and works well within the kitchen environment. But it can be damaged and should water get into MDF, it will bloat like a cookie in milk. MDF does not glue well and doesnt hold a screw for beans. The only decent use of melamine MDF that I have found is in making platens for my vacuum bag press. I would not use it to make cabinets. This is ESP. TRUE for cabinets that are in the vincinty of the sink or dishwasher, etc.

Personally, I like the quick clean up of melamine but it does give the cabinets a bit of a chessy look. A number of the cabinets I have done use vertical grade formica. Formica or high pressure laminates by companies like wilson arts is a phenelic substrate with a melamine top wear/color layer bonded to it. For the most part, this stuff is tuff! Most counter tops are done using normal formica or high pressure laminates which means the stuff is about 1 mm thick. Vertical grade is actually a bit thinner and is no more than 0.7 mm thick. You can get any color or pattern in vertical grade. It does offer a neat, high performance interior and in colors that suggest class and not the cheese pallet of white, black and almond.

The problem in using this stuff is in bonding it to your substrate of choice. I use either BB ply or standard birch ply or maple ply which is birch ply with a tad of maple on it. Lately, HD has had some killer prices on 4x8 sheets of maple ply. One of formica's application engineers admitted to me that contact cement is not the cement of choice but is used because its quick and does not require time and special tools. I actually use resourcinol for this bonding job. I think that plastic resin glue will also work well as will urea glue depending on which environment laws apply to you. You will need to set up a veneer press or a vacumm bag press to do this bonding job. I bond "blanks". Once the blank is done, I then machine the side or back or shelf, etc. to its final size and machine any appropriate joinery such as dados and lock mitres, etc. If your going with faceless cabinets, then you will need to deal with the edges. A burgess edging bit set will bail you out in a hurry if you can live with real wood edging.

There are many ways to build cabinets. In the old days, most cabinets were built on site and not installable as units. You can see some left over ways of making cabinets today from these old ways of doing business. Personally I dont like that. It does not take much effort to build a cabinet that is well thought out, machined and assembled.

One design that is pretty nice is called the donmar-weisnig method. This method is more for use with face frame cabinets than say euro faceless cabinets. These guys have actually invented a simple clamp jig to assist in making cabinets with this system. You can learn more by checking out the items offered thru garret wade. They sell the clamps as well as tiny models of their cabinets to instruct you on how to build them that way. For a first run at making cabinets, this system will prove rather helpful.

I have actually taken this system and modified it a bit. As I use a shaper extensively and given that I also use BB ply often, I use a slight variation to the donmar -weisnig method to make construction on a shaper easier.

When glueing up the final cabinets, dont forget to tape the edges surrounding the interior glue joints with painters tape to help make clean up easier.

I did read earlier about one poster using a french cleat to install top run cabinets. This sounds like a smashing idea and I think I will give this a try next time. So I hope I have contributed a bit here and I will certainly take a bit back myself.

Thanks and good luck...

[Sam Blasco]

If you are a production shop, doing 10 kitchens a month, the price difference between melamine and a good pre-finished maple ply can be significant for a bottom line. But for one kitchen (your own no less) the difference in material cost really isn't that big of a factor, IMHO. 20$ per sheet vs. $50 per sheet (melamine vs pre-finished maple) for a 10 x 10 kitchen lets say, 15 sheets, the difference in price is $450. For a $14,000 job that difference is hardly noticeable for a much better product. If you can't get wholesale pricing, find someone who knows someone who has a cabinet shop and see if you can order your materials through them. I would do this for folks all the time.
As for melamine vs ply and which is better -- way too many factors to consider. No question that a plywood kitchen built by someone who knows what they are doing could hold up for 50 plus years -- (considering the tear outs of some of the kitchens I redid in older homes vs. the tear outs of kitchens between 5 and 10 years old) --where as a melamine kitchen would be hard pressed (no pun intended) to last 15 years if done by the same craftsman and adjusted construction techniques.
I have even seen some very fine and expensive Scandanavian furniture that was made with a particle board core having a hard time holding up after only 25 years.
Needless to say I never used melamine for clients kitchens or my personal cabinets (not even garage cabinets), but I have used it for rental properties and houses that my clients were flipping or remodeling for re-sale.
I also switched from Blum to Salice about seven years ago, but the Blum rep keeps telling me they have closed the quality and convenience gap, but I haven't tried their new hinges lately. Though, the next kitchen I do will incorporate Blums Blum-Motion under mount drawer slides. Again, in the rental properties and flippers, I used Amerock hinges. I say this just becasue there are many places to cut corners if price is your motivating factor, not just which construction material you choose.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Where do you get the Amerock hinges and how much are they per hinge? (I know I can search it but I want to know his answer since it might save me a ton of time searching and comparing).

I pay about $2.50 per hinge using Blums. We are about to abandon cabinet work after this next Home Show. We're going to be exhibitors for the first time and will be concentrating on outdoor structures.

[John Hemenway]

Sam, good info.

I'm planing my cabinets now and am really considering pre-finished ply. When you use it, how (or do) you glue it? Some books (Danny Proulux being an example) don't use glue, just screws. In another book (Udo Schmidt), face frames are not glued. What do you think of this?

[Ron Teti]

Kelly,

Hey good to see you. I wondered what happened to you. I usually buy my hinges by the box 250 ect. It cheaper that way and I know Ill use them eventually andd charge the customer the reg. retail price

[Ron Teti]

John,

I use 15 ga nails and glue and clamps. I finish my own ply. If you check out the price of finished ply about 65-70 bucks a sheet as compared to unfinished shop birch @ 35-40 bucks a sheet.
If I am going to use end panels ILO the ply panels I will use pocket holes to attach the F/F to the carcase.

I use a w/b finish, enduro coat to finish the cabs

[Steve Clardy]

Where do you get the Amerock hinges and how much are they per hinge? (I know I can search it but I want to know his answer since it might save me a ton of time searching and comparing).

I pay about $2.50 per hinge using Blums. We are about to abandon cabinet work after this next Home Show. We're going to be exhibitors for the first time and will be concentrating on outdoor structures.

Baer Supply.
HD Hardware.

Both of these are commercial accounts Kelly. Tax # gets you in on some great prices.
Both have web ordering sites, or I can give you the phone #'s.
Steve

[Dev Emch]

Not to change the subject but....

Now that we have all seen the real story, also bear this in mind. When someone is selling a property, they are going to push for the maximum value that they can squeeze. Frequently, the use of chesse-mo on the interior becomes not even an after thought as they all have visions of plumb pudding dancing in their brains on receipt of a contract.

All to often, kitchen remodels, esp. on flippers, becomes one of the primary drivers by the realtors. I have seen all this before. On one income property that we bought years ago, we actually made a better offer to have the kitchen and one bathroom demoed and the new cabinets and other home depot junk hauled to the dump! I deal in top of the line work and top of the line income properties. Low income properties and particle board cabinet junk often leads to tenants that are eviction bound. That or college students trying to relive animal house!

If your in a position to build your own cabinets and have the skills to do it, your doing yourself and ulitmately the resale value of your home a disservice by using sheet cheese-mo. Sure some of you realtors are going to take issue here. But its these folks who are part of the problem when they try to sell a sow's ear as a silk purse. The fact that so many of the forum members have already built their own or are building their own cabinets should tell you something.

A portion of what I do is building and rennovating kitchens and baths. But I will not even consider competing against the likes of the borgs and the rest of the particle board and MDF gang. Why? Horrid quality and very low profit margins. These contractors will often try to talk you down in quality because its not needed, etc. etc. blah blah blah. But, have you ever realized that its never them who takes the price hit? They always manage to position themselves on the bid such that the goodie list takes the hit and not them. Down grade the cabinets to terminte spit and newspaper sheet goods. Use the chiwan made plain jane facets. Eliminate the use of valve boxes in the dry wall. And call anyone using top quality goodies virtual idiots with more money than common sense.

Personally, if I were making the cabinets for myself, which I have done, I would use the best goodie list I could get my hands on. That includes the use of 3/4 inch baltic birch and very nice stock for the doors and face frames (if not euros). By the time the dust settles, you have the potential of having a very top drawer cabinet set at a huge savings to yourself.

And dont forget about wifie! Girls dont respond well to discussions about the positive virtues of a unisaw versus a contractor saw, etc. But they do respond when their friends come over and they can show off what their husbands have done. This is esp. true if one of your wives friends husbands is an easy chair rider on saturday! A new kitchen remodel has the potential of bagging some nice new goodies for the shop. And unlike paying that money to a contractor, those goodies are present and accounted for long after the kitchen job is done. I can tell you this because I know I will most likely never be retained by any of you. Whats the point? You have the knowledge and skills and desire and tools. There is alot of potential energy in that combination.

I just got exposure to some homes in the 800 to 900 K range. These are about 1 to 2 years old and are, for the most part, very nice. That is until I opened up the kitchen cabinets. HOLY COW! Someone was on good drugs! They had made the boxes from particle board which had been sanded down and stained and then shot with varnish or lacquer. The interiors looked like high gloss dog houses from the borgs! Horrid! If I had bought one of these units, I know I would be in their the day after closing with a sledge hammer!

So if your doing the work yourself, take your time, plan and organize to the last detail and use the best stuff you can get your hands on. Its only one kitchen and your not in the business.... esp. that of selling cheese-mo cabinets. So do it right and be done with it. The corrallary to this statement is... If you can't find time to do it right the first time, when are you going to find time to do it right the second time?

Good Luck

[Chip Olson]

I use 15 ga nails and glue and clamps. I finish my own ply.
Does the glue hold on the finished surface? For my kitchen cabinet project, I'm planning to finish the cut panels (that cheap 3/4" maple ply from the Borg) and then assemble with glue and screws, but was wondering if I should mask off the areas to be glued before finishing.

[Corey Hallagan]

I was at HD last night and as Dav says, birch/maply 3/4 ply is going for 28.97 for a 4 x 8. It looked like good stuff as well and all stacked nice and flat and pretty, not like most the oak ply in the stack that looks like it is made for making round walls :)

Corey

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Dev, that's very well spoken and exactly the way all who are considering building their own cabinets should think. Since everyone who is paying for cabinets prices the HD sets before getting estimates, I am about to step out of that arena and head into high end work only. I also NEVER work for contractors, in fact I never have. I'll never understand anyone building their own kitchen or bath cabinets with anything other than plywood or real wood.

[Jerry Golick]

I realize that it may not be politically correct to favour the use of melamine-coated particle board for cabinet carcasses. And I will admit that I am not a seasoned maker of saw dust, but there are quite a number of things I like about the material.

1) It requires no finishing, other than some glue on tape, or simple edging treatements. No nasty fumes, and a faster project completition time.

2) It is made out of recyled materials

3) No need to plane the material to a uniform thickness.

4) Ongoing maintenance is a piece of cake. Melamine resists most stuff you might spill on it quite well.

5) Nice clean white finish, which is very nice on the inside of a kitchen cab. I find that when the interior of cabs are made from wood, they seem dark and less clean.

6) You can join the material together with screws, dowels, biscuits, or even glue and dadoes.

7) From my (limited) experience the material is quite stable.

8) It comes in a really wide range of styles, colours and textures. Take a look at the Uniboard catalog. It can also be painted, but, well I tried it once and was less tham impressed with the results.

9) It costs about 1/2 price of a quality plywood product.

I think the idea of good quality wood doors make lots of sense when building a set of kitchen cabs, but I am not convinced at all about the need to build the interiors out of anything beside MPB.

Perhaps a ply carcass would last longer, but in my experience people change their kitchen around every 15 years or so. Or often when the house gets sold. So, how long do the cabs really have to last?

Finally, as long as the doors are good, they can always be preserved and used on another project. I am not sure the same can be said about the carcasses.

Just my .02

[James Mudler]

I was at HD last night and as Dav says, birch/maply 3/4 ply is going for 28.97 for a 4 x 8. It looked like good stuff as well and all stacked nice and flat and pretty, not like most the oak ply in the stack that looks like it is made for making round walls :)

Corey

That is a "seasonal item" for us. I have a whole shop and kitchen to build/set up and waiting for HD to get some more in stock.

[Corey Hallagan]

How long do you think this stuff will be around HD James. It was good looking stuff, I don't have alot of room to stock up with but I will make room for about 10 sheets if it won't be around this fall.

Corey

[Ed Blough]

I was at HD last night and as Dav says, birch/maply 3/4 ply is going for 28.97 for a 4 x 8. It looked like good stuff as well and all stacked nice and flat and pretty, not like most the oak ply in the stack that looks like it is made for making round walls :)

Corey


Here in Florida Birch, Maple or Oak ply at HD is 45 as sheet. If you can get it for 28.97 I would say you have a good deal. Incidentally every time a hurricane comes near HD and LOWES sell every piece of ply in the building. I have seen people nailing $45 sheets of Maple veneered ply to their house. After the storm pasts they tear it down and throw it garbage because the instant it get soaked from the rain it delaminates and they play the same game next time. My dad had a saying for this, "they have more money than brains."

[Don Baer]

I may have to stop by my local HD and pick up a few sheets at that price. I don't have any projects for it at the moment but I woulbe nice to have just in case. I can just see the LOML saying "What are you going to do with that" and then the expression on her face when I tell her that I don't have a projetc for it but "it was just to good a deal to pass up"....:rolleyes:

[Kelly C. Hanna]

We just bought five sheets at HD's for a paint grade corner entertainment center. It was the best looking ply I've seen at HD in some time. Better get it fast though, it tends to disappear quickly!

[jack duren]

last i heard the HD plys were delaminating. i thought you agreed with DEV on buying most expensive/best materials you could afford yet milk HD for the budget material.

i must be getting confused :confused:

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I build things for a living, When someone asks me for a very inexpensive TV cabinet, I don't buy the most expensive ply to make it with. That would be what I call confused.

For my own kitchen (which is what I referenced in my post) I would choose the ply we get from Austin Hardwoods or Plywood Co. of FW for our stain grade projects. It not olnly costs a few dolllars more at $55-60 a sheet, but it's much higher quality ply.

[frank shic]

kevin, when i saw your initial post and the lively response that followed, i just couldn't RESIST!

i just got into woodworking about a year and a half ago and i've built a couple of cabinets including: painted face framed 48 inch bathroom vanity as well as a built in 36 inch floor to ceiling closet out of pine/plywood with biscuits and kreg pocket hole screws mainly because of the potential for water leaks, painted face framed built in floor to ceiling wardrobe cabinets (4) out of poplar/ 5/8 melamine with confirmats and coarse pocket hole screws (should have used the fine screws as there was slight splitting on the poplar with the coarse screws!).

currently, i'm building my waterbased clear finished face framed kitchen cabinets out of maple and plywood with confirmats, biscuits and fine kreg pocket hole screws again because of the potential for water leaks as well as for general aesthetics.

melamine is a fantastic material to work with as long as you've got: a 60 tooth circular saw blade for cutting down the sheet/melamine cutting table saw blade (i used the freud triple chip 80 tooth melamine blade from amazon) for the final cuts as well as a confirmat starter kit (available at mcfeely's) with a cheapo drill guide (the one that you use if you don't have a drill press yet!), and a STRONG BACK - the stuff is MUCH heavier than plywood!

melamine is CHEAP and not having to finish the stuff is PRICELESS!!!

good luck with whatever you decide!

[jack duren]

sorry kelly.

"I am about to step out of that arena and head into high end work only."

i guess i was too early with my "milking" post ;)

[Corey Hallagan]

Jack, the stack of budget stuff did look very good that I was looking at but that sucks if it falls apart later, but much of the current oak and other hardwood ply was delaminated in the pile. It was just real junk. God it sure is hard to buy good material anymore at a decent price.

Corey

[jack duren]

Corey not everyone has had problem with this plywood. even the cabinet distributers have problems with the products they sell. bad batches are rare but do get through sometimes. i used a couple sheets of this myself but 1 of the 2 sheets had problems. delamination.

my suggestion is to thourouly look over the sheets for imperfections. a good batch may turn some nice projects.

personally i only use MDF core products. more stable than ply versions......jack

[jack duren]

Kelly i guess i owe you an apology. i took offence to many of the things DEV made comment to and your agreeance with him i guess tipped the glass.

my aplogies Kelly :) ....jack

[Corey Hallagan]

Thanks Jack, from my trip thru HD, the only melamine core product I could find was PB coated with Melamine... no MDF core that I could see. Is it a special order item?

Corey

[Richard McComas]

My favorite box material is melamine for many of the same reasons Jerry Golick mentioned. Like he said, use a high quality melamine, not the junk from HD, there is a difference.

High quality melamine is flat, stable, of uniform thickness and you don’t have to finish it. Women seem to be impressed on how well it cleans and if you use a white or light colored melamine it really brighten up the inside of the cabinet.

I assemble my boxes with butt joints, comfirmat screws and no glue, for those who must have glue I have found that a small bead of PL premium polyurethane construction adhesive sticks like the dickens to melamine. . I use a separate toe kick so the Melamine is not close to the floor and you get less waste of your sheet goods.

After the box parts are cut I tack the boxes together with a brad nailer and then using a rubber ballet I can fine-tune any misaligned parts just before installing the comfirmat screws. The backs of my cabinet, both base and uppers are made from1/2 Melamine planted on, again with comfirmat screws.

Gable ends can be veneered with most any material of your choosing by simply scuffing up the Melamine coating with a ROS and wiping clean with lacquer thinner.

I pre-finish face frames and doors before attaching to the cabinet boxes making finishing very easy.

For finishing I recently switched over to water based pre-cat lacquer from Fuhr’s and use Zinsser seal coat as a sealer and barrier coat, all applied with an HVLP spray system. I have been happy with this finish so far and it is easy and quick to apply. No stinky fumes and no worries about blowing your shop up.

The Blum euro hinges are great.


I have eight or so kitchens built like this dating back 15 years and have never had a call back due to the use of Melamine.

Oh! Yes it’s a little heavy but at 61 going on 62 I can still load a sheet on my slider by myself.

All that being said, I know there are some who will hate melamine, particleboard and MDF unit the end of time but it works for me, but of course in the end its up to the customer. Would I use it for my own cabinets? Yes.

PS In my area a sheet of 49 x 97 melamine cost 30 bucks and pre-finished maple veneer core is 70 dollars.

[jack duren]

my mention of MDF core was on my exteriors of the cabinets. for instance the interiors of my cabinets are made using white melamine with a MDF core rotary cut oak exterior.

i dont suggest using the HD type melamine as i believe its all cold rolled versus the thermally fused melamine of a cabinet supplier....jack

[jack duren]

a little melamine reading http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Melamine_Carcasses.html
...jack

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Baer Supply.
HD Hardware.

Both of these are commercial accounts Kelly. Tax # gets you in on some great prices.
Both have web ordering sites, or I can give you the phone #'s.
Steve

Thanks Steve...I'll check 'em out.

[James Mudler]

How long do you think this stuff will be around HD James. It was good looking stuff, I don't have alot of room to stock up with but I will make room for about 10 sheets if it won't be around this fall.

Corey

I work out with the manager of HD. He told me they get 2 maybe 3 shipments a year. Usually only one pallet at a time. I bought several sheets last year for shop fixtures, jigs, extra and was very happy with the stuff. I need 27 sheets and check all the time now. :rolleyes:

One can not special order, and I would check with "millworks" desk to see if your location maybe stocks it.