Flat/Rift grain orientation

[David Ragan]

In keeping with my ongoing policy of exposing my ignorance, here is the next issue:
My Dad-a pattern maker, always oriented the grain opposite-wise. Is this what everyone always does?
Doesn't it cause problems if I have to go back and use my smoother later, or will a little thoughtful flipping of boards, etc make sure that I can plane all the face in the same direction?

On top of the above, I love choosing how all the boards will wind up in the piece, in particular, the cherry blanket chest. Strict attention to the above makes this harder, right?

Thank you, David

[Lee Schierer]

The reason for alternating the growth rings in a glued up panel was to minimize the cupping of the panel due to uneven expansion/contraction of the wood due to grain orientation. This problem has somewhat been overcome by improved kiln drying techniques, but cupping can still occur. If all the growth rings are oriented the same way the effect of cupping of each board becomes additive so the whole panel will bow rather dramatically. Alternating growth rings causes the cupping to add and subtract across the panel resulting in much less total cupping. If you examine the edge grain direction you can sometimes flip the board end to end to get the growth ring orientation and grain flow to work for you to limit cupping and allow follow up planing.

As to your question about planing after glue up, yes it can be a problem. I think some of the scraper planes would be less of an issue or even using just an hand scraper.

What I do is try to alternate growth rings when possible, arrange individual boards for best grain match and color to adjacent pieces and pay close attention when gluing to get the edges aligned all the way along the length of each board. Then I use a belt sander to take care of any unevenness that may remain.

[Frank Drew]

David,

Alternating growth rings can give the finished panel a light/dark, light/dark pattern due to differing reflexivity of the individual boards, and, IMO, the anti-cupping advantage is more theoretical than real (and you could also argue that one cup is easier to control, and less annoying, and a series of hills and valleys.)

[Prashun Patel]

David, your thoughts are correct: focusing on grain orientation MAY compromise your aesthetics.

This topic comes up from time to time. Of about 10 experts whom I respect who have opined on this, ALL of them have said they prefer to FIRST orient their boards based on aesthetics, then grain direction (if they are hand surfacing) and last growth ring orientation. They say dry and prep your boards properly and use mechanical devices to keep the panel flat (breadboard ends; aprons) and then don't worry about the growth rings.

That's how i now do it when aesthetics matter.

[Steve Baumgartner]

David, your thoughts are correct: focusing on grain orientation MAY compromise your aesthetics.

This topic comes up from time to time. Of about 10 experts whom I respect who have opined on this, ALL of them have said they prefer to FIRST orient their boards based on aesthetics, then grain direction (if they are hand surfacing) and last growth ring orientation. They say dry and prep your boards properly, and then don't worry about the growth rings.

That's how i now do it when aesthetics matter.

+1 I choose looks over ease of planing every time.

[scott vroom]

Flat/Rift grain orientationMy Dad-a pattern maker, always oriented the grain opposite-wise. Is this what everyone always does?
Doesn't it cause problems if I have to go back and use my smoother later, or will a little thoughtful flipping of boards, etc make sure that I can plane all the face in the same direction?

Thank you, David

I'll admit I'm confused. When you talk about "Flat/Rift grain orientation" are you referring to someone alternating flat sawn and rift sawn boards in a glue up? Typically flat and rift sawn boards aren't combined in a glued up panel...at least not in my projects.

[Steve Baumgartner]

I'll admit I'm confused. When you talk about "Flat/Rift grain orientation" are you referring to someone alternating flat sawn and rift sawn boards in a glue up? Typically flat and rift sawn boards aren't combined in a glued up panel...at least not in my projects.

Good point, Scott! I imagine the OP actually meant heart/pith. Most flat-sawn boards tend to vertical grain near the edges, so putting them next to a rift/qs board does provide some continuity of orientation. But I find that wide alternating areas of flat and qs look odd, so I avoid mixing.

[David Ragan]

What does OP mean?

Before now, I have never (before today)
-taken such care and milled my wood *again* two days later
-noticed whether the wood was rift/flat/quarter sawn for panel composition

The good thing is that there was indeed some warp in the boards after sitting for two days. I took off probably less than 1/8" today
I am very satisfied with the results of milling a second time-starting over with jointing a flat face, etc. All boards seem to be the exact same thickness with nice 90 degree corners.

So, I pulled the qs/rs boards and will probably put them in the back panel; of necessity, the top and front will be fs.

Yes, my original question was about alternating the potential cupping of fs boards.

In an effort to concentrate on the outfeed table of the jointer, I found myself standing more toward the outfeed table and pulling the boards over-just seems easier to focus that way, especially when I get tired, and may lose concentration. Never did that before either.

[Prashun Patel]

OP = Original Poster, or in your case, Obviously Perplexed!!!! ;)

[John TenEyck]

What does OP mean?

In an effort to concentrate on the outfeed table of the jointer, I found myself standing more toward the outfeed table and pulling the boards over-just seems easier to focus that way, especially when I get tired, and may lose concentration. Never did that before either.

When you get tired and lose concentration - please STOP.

John

[Yonak Hawkins]

When you get tired and lose concentration - please STOP.

John

I just have to respond. That's one of those bywords that is good advice and is circulated regularly but it isn't always practicable. If you've got an order you have to get out and you just can't quit, you have to buckle down, regain your concentration on safety and production and finish the job. Production woodworking can't be a special case, excepted from normal business principles.

[Steve Baumgartner]

I just have to respond. That's one of those bywords that is good advice and is circulated regularly but it isn't always practicable. If you've got an order you have to get out and you just can't quit, you have to buckle down, regain your concentration on safety and production and finish the job. Production woodworking can't be a special case, excepted from normal business principles.
One key idea when you are under a deadline is to take a break rather than forging mindlessly on, especially with some repetitive operation. The delay will cost you a lot less than a trip to the hospital!

[John TenEyck]

Of course we've all worked when we were tired and our minds began to wander, whether at our desks or on the production floor. And Steve captured the meaning of my simple comment very well. Take a break. Even as little as 5 minutes can be a big help. If your mind is not focused solely at the task at hand, bad things can and, unfortunately, do happen very quickly.

John

[Yonak Hawkins]

One key idea when you are under a deadline is to take a break rather than forging mindlessly on, especially with some repetitive operation. The delay will cost you a lot less than a trip to the hospital!

Yes, I agree. Taking a brief break, getting a drink of water and re-adjusting one's eyes and focus is a useful and proven remedy.

[David Ragan]

I agree completely.

When I'm tired, I don't feel like being down here-its only a hobby, I'll opt for the deadly recliner.

As you know, sometimes, the utmost concentration ongoing yields the best results until 'muscle memory', etc is ingrained. As infrequently as I do woodworking, there is not really much muscle memory, or muscles for that matter. Anyway- I am a physician, and have sewn up many mangled fingers/hands, etc and smashed toes. The middle finger is the most commonly injured one. When I sew up a laceration, I hardly have to think about it-and I get a great result. When I am using this power equipment, I have to really concentrate.

I have a healthy amount of fear in regards to my power equipment. Not paralyzing, just an awareness.

Another reason why hand tools are the best. You simply can't beat taking a finely tuned plane with a steep iron and planing against the grain to get a gossamer thin tear out free result.

I have been off work all week. Am ready to go back and do something that is not quite so hard, though.

[Frank Drew]

It's worth noting that the OP's father was a pattern maker, and, as highly skilled as it is, pattern making is structural, or applied, woodworking, not aesthetic woodworking in the same way that furniture making is.