Is there anything that really sticks in your craw about tools today?

[Tony Haukap]

I'll tell you what my beef is, but first look at this picture...
http://i59.tinypic.com/2j4oiv8.jpg
That's a pretty common scratch awl probably found in just about every metal and woodshop across America. You'll even find carpenters with them in their toolbelts on job sites. I'd say it's almost as commonly found as a hammer, pliers, screwdriver is that everybody seems to have multiples of in their homes. I think I must have about a good half-dozen or more of these Stanley scratch awls floating around the shop and that number doesn't include the ones that live in the kitchen tool drawer or other tool boxes I have for dedicated tasks.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif

I've heard people call them "ice picks" (are true 'ice-picks' even make these days?) a totally different tool for a different task... now here's a quick comparison that shows that's not an ice pick - this is an ice pick...
http://i57.tinypic.com/2vx24jd.jpg
Ice picks on left hand side, scratch awls on right (in case you didn't know)... although, I can easily see how people can confuse the two... but I would never personally use an ice pick to start a screw hole, nor would I use a scratch awl to break a block of ice into pieces... well maybe in an emergency, but right tool, right job has always been my philosophy...looks like I'm quickly getting off on a tangent here. :) Anyway...

http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif

I don't know why, but I like the handle design of the Stanley scratch awls, at first glance it doesn't look too ergonomic, actually it looks pretty darn awkward for a handle, especially if you think of the kind of handle you find on a screwdriver - but this style just feels right in my hand, maybe it's from years of using this style, I don't know. The first one I bought (way back in about 1978!) was painted blue (or maybe it was stained with some kind of blue dye) and the metal rod extended all the way through the handle to the top so you could strike it without damaging the wood handle. These new ones don't have that feature, the rod stops short, maybe it's a different model, but the stores around here don't seem to carry any other styles. In the picture above they both are same model number, same style, and aside from the color change, see a difference? Maybe the back of packaging will reveal some clues...
http://i57.tinypic.com/2u8dvdh.jpg
Hey wait a minute! One is "Made in China" and the other says "Made in USA (with Global Materials)." Same exact packaging, same model number, same design/style, but now made completely in a foreign country! Stanley did this without fanfare or announcement, just quietly removed the "U.S.A." from the graphic printed on the handle and then hid on the back of the package it's now China origins. No where on the actual tool does it say where it's made anymore. Too bad... as I won't be buying anymore of these and returning the "China" one to the store. Normally I would tell the girl behind the returns counter exactly why I'm returning it, but in this case it would do little good - the word would never get back to anyone that matters.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif

The good news is that as it turns out, I really didn't need it, it was completely an impulse purchase, I saw it hanging on a hook there in the store and thought I should get one to have an extra on hand. But, when I went to put it in my 'new tool drawer' - that's a drawer where I keep new items; mainly various saw blades, drill bits, router bits and that kind of stuff, but I do also have a few sizes of chisels, a dovetail saw (that's probably been in there 30-years, seems they don't wear out nearly as fast as I thought), a 24" back saw (do they even make them that large anymore?), and a few different hammers too -- I already had a brand new, in the package, genuine made in the USA scratch awl in there ready to go should I ever need it. I probably should find a way to keep better track/inventory of this stuff, as this is far from the first time I have purchased something only to find out when I get home that I already have an extra one I purchased sometime previously.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif

Being a tool guy and a hobbyist I really care about quality and want nice stuff. When I see a tool I like I buy it, even if I may not have a use for it at that particular moment. But... I also care equally as much about country of origin. I've passed over many things because they were poorly made overseas or simply "Made in China" when "Made in USA" alternatives were readily available. I'll go out of my way to buy products that are made in the USA. And I know others that do exactly the same.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif

The thing that really bugs me is that I don't feel these manufactures are actually listening to what customers want. I'm not poor, I don't live in a Third World Country, I will and can afford to pay more for a USA made product. Above all I would just like to buy tools that support the economy that I live in and supporting small American manufactures and inventors. Is that asking for too much?

[scott vroom]

If you want a higher quality awl made in the USA, then buy the Klein.

I guess your lesson learned is to read the packaging before buying.

http://www.amazon.com/Klein-650-Cushion-Grip-Scratch-2-Inch/dp/B0000302W2/ref=sr_1_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1414466446&sr=1-4&keywords=scratch+awl#customerReviews

[Bill Orbine]

Like you, I prefer the older USA made awl. In my search using "Stanley Scratch Awl #69-122" on Ebay, I found a few images of the awl brand new in package with the USA printed on the wood handle. I wonder if I'd get a USA made product or the "inferior" product if I order one from Ebay?

Edit: In checking Amazon website.... I see the same USA printed on the wood handle within the package! Will I get USA if I order one?

[Thomas Hotchkin]

Tony
I just checked my 1913 Stanley Catalogue reprint. It list a No 6 Stanley HURWOOD AWL for $3.00 that looks just like my 60-122 AWL made in USA, that I bought in 1976. Amazon has a Stanley 60-122 made in USA with a black painted handle for $3.95. Little price change for 100 years. Tom

[Matt Day]

And I thought you were going to say too much plastic.

[John Coloccia]

No, not the craw. The craw!

299140

[scott vroom]

Tony
I just checked my 1913 Stanley Catalogue reprint. It list a No 6 Stanley HURWOOD AWL for $3.00 that looks just like my 60-122 AWL made in USA, that I bought in 1976. Amazon has a Stanley 60-122 made in USA with a black painted handle for $3.95. Little price change for 100 years. Tom

Using historical inflation data, that $3.00 awl in 1913 would cost $72 today. You'd be hard pressed to find a high carbon steel top of the line scratch awl that cost more than 20 dollars today. I get the tool nostalgia thing, but high quality tools are available today for a fraction of what they would have cost 100 years ago (inflation adjusted).

[ray hampton]

you call this tool a scratch awl , why ?
this were the first tool that I bought , not to scratch BUT to start a hole for a nail
there was no need to buy hammers since the owners would forget the hammers when they moved

[Myk Rian]

you call this tool a scratch awl , why ?
Ummm. Because that's what it is?

[Lonnie Gallaher]

SV,

You may want to check the catalog price of the awl again. A hundred years ago, many hand tools were price by the dozen. That would make the awl 25 cents. More in line with what it should have cost a hundred years ago.

[Jerry Wright]

General comment: never had to hit a scratch all with a mallet, even to make a starter hole. My departed father, a life long shop teacher, would have called me "Primitive Pete" if he caught me doing that. So, I don't see an issue with an awl whose shank does not extend through the handle.

[Andre Packwood]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Thomas Hotchkin http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=2326806#post2326806)
Tony
I just checked my 1913 Stanley Catalogue reprint. It list a No 6 Stanley HURWOOD AWL for $3.00 that looks just like my 60-122 AWL made in USA, that I bought in 1976. Amazon has a Stanley 60-122 made in USA with a black painted handle for $3.95. Little price change for 100 years.





Hello Tom,
I don't have an old Stanley catalogue around, but you may want to check yours and see if the awl was listed by the box (6 or a dozen) as the Stanley catalogues were meant for dealers, I believe. After all, a Bailey #4 smoother must have been selling for about $1.50 around that time.
Andre

[dan sherman]

http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif
Being a tool guy and a hobbyist I really care about quality and want nice stuff. When I see a tool I like I buy it, even if I may not have a use for it at that particular moment. But... I also care equally as much about country of origin. I've passed over many things because they were poorly made overseas or simply "Made in China" when "Made in USA" alternatives were readily available. I'll go out of my way to buy products that are made in the USA. And I know others that do exactly the same.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif

The thing that really bugs me is that I don't feel these manufactures are actually listening to what customers want. I'm not poor, I don't live in a Third World Country, I will and can afford to pay more for a USA made product. Above all I would just like to buy tools that support the economy that I live in and supporting small American manufactures and inventors. Is that asking for too much?


Tony,

The issue is that manufactures don't care about you, or more specifically the segment of the market you belong to. They care about segments of the market that will buy enough units at a given price to make producing it profitable. The average consumer doesn't care about where a tool is made, as long as is will do the task they purchased it for. Usually a tool is purchased to solve a one time problem. The is the sole reason HF stays in business, as they sell tools that will last long enough to solve the task at hand, and are dirt cheap. People don't fix thing anymore, hence the reason quality tools are hard to find.





The thing that sticks in my crawl, are the people who complain about to many choices. it took all I had to not punch a guy in the face the other day at my local WW store. he started off complaining about how the new LV planes aren't needed, then went on and was complaining about all the boutique saw makers and how they wen't needed either. His premise was that we now had to many options and that it was making beginners confused. God forbid a beginner might spend some time learning about what they need before they start buying stuff.

[Andre Packwood]

Tony
I just checked my 1913 Stanley Catalogue reprint. It list a No 6 Stanley HURWOOD AWL for $3.00 that looks just like my 60-122 AWL made in USA, that I bought in 1976. Amazon has a Stanley 60-122 made in USA with a black painted handle for $3.95. Little price change for 100 years. Tom

Hello Tom,
I don't have an antique Stanley Tools catalogue around, but you may want to check yours to see if the awl was sold by the box (half-dozen or dozen) as I believe Stanley did for small and inexpensive items in their catalogues meant for dealers. After all, a complete Bailey #4 plane must have been selling for around $1.50 - $2.00 then.
Regards, Andre

[Charles Taylor]

Usually a tool is purchased to solve a one time problem. The is the sole reason HF stays in business, as they sell tools that will last long enough to solve the task at hand, and are dirt cheap. People don't fix thing anymore, hence the reason quality tools are hard to find.

+1.

What the heck. +2.

[Thomas Hotchkin]

Hello Tom,
I don't have an antique Stanley Tools catalogue around, but you may want to check yours to see if the awl was sold by the box (half-dozen or dozen) as I believe Stanley did for small and inexpensive items in their catalogues meant for dealers. After all, a complete Bailey #4 plane must have been selling for around $1.50 - $2.00 then.
Regards, Andre

Andre
You are so right, I went back to Stanley's Catalogue, and in fine print the $3.00 is for 12 Awls just about 25 cents each.

Scott
You can have this Blue Spruce Awl for $55.00 plus shipping. Tom
http://www.bluesprucetools.com/PDGImages/LSA1_big.jpg

[Peter Quinn]

This thread reminded me I need another scratch awl for the home shop. The one in the work tool box is a highly effective cheap Chinese off brand affair. Not even a stanley, probably bought it at the end of the tool aisle at the Borg, works fine. In the home shop have a home made thing I found when cleaning out a friends house when he got sick and had to sell, claimed his father had made it.....I keep it for sentimental reasons, he's passed on now....the awl is terrible. Just ordered the Klein that Scott linked. Nice up grade, I will retire the old standby, give it an honarary place in the hand tool holder....near the back!

Where to spend your money is a complex equation, each person is different. In some cases I'm firmly in favor of buying domestic for quality reasons or to support the home team. In other cases, I'll buy the most cost effective option and keep more money in my pocket, allows me to live like a king using cheap over seas labor, gives them a job, if I had to personally support the entire nation I'd go broke. Stanley started as a cheap alternative to costly handmade English and German alternatives, I've never thought of them as the penultimate tool manufacturers, their move to over seas manufacturing is hardly a suprise. Someday the Chinese may demand a living wage on parity with developed nations, perhaps production will move to less developed nations.....perhaps a good awl will cost $55 at that point. It's the way things go in a complex world. I for one am less interested in bemoaning the loss of this nations manufacturing dominance in some distant past I'm not sure ever really existed so much as in our minds as I am trying to find my place in the reality with which I'm faced daily.

[Mike Ontko]

Interesting thread; so many uses...or misuses out of such a simple tool, and so many directions to go on this discussion :)

My first introduction to using an awl was in sheet metal layout, where it's used just like you would a marking knife on wood. And as mentioned earlier in this thread, it also functions as a decent center punch (much easier to see the point than on a standard sized punch). I can even remember reading an instruction once in a DIY type of veterinary manual on how to use an awl for relieving a cow of a distressing bloat condition.

What sticks in my craw the most regarding tools...or any product for that matter in today's market (even food), is how much junk is out there and worse--how it's become the accepted norm.

[Andrew Joiner]

Test results can be surprising even when you have a country of origin preference.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?200911-Scissors-Test-Review
I like to test things before I decide on adding them to my shop.

[John TenEyck]

We probably have more choices today in what we buy than ever before. If you want to spend $40 or $50 on a scratch awl you can, even though a nail driven into a chuck of wood and sharpened works just about as well. Some guys love pretty, expensive tools made in the USA, Switzerland, wherever, others use whatever gets the job done and don't care where it's made as long as it's cheap and does the job. Me? I like old American iron, not because it's necessarily made better but because it works well enough and I can get them cheap. All my stationary tools, save one, are pre 1960. Delta BS, Dewalt RAS, Delta lathe, Unisaw. I paid about $500 for all of them. They work great after I spent some time restoring them to good function. But if I could have found a Hammer, Aggazani, etc. for the same price I'd be signing their praises. Country of origin is of far less importance to me than value.

John

[Jeff Ranck]

My departed father, a life long shop teacher, would have called me "Primitive Pete" if he caught me doing that.

Hey, I'm not the only one who remembers those movies! I found one online the other day and it brought back good memories of shop where they actually taught us how to use tools!

[Jerry Wright]

When I watched them, I think they might have been film strips!!!

[Lee Reep]

Primitive Pete! Wow, I haven't thought about those films in many years. My junior high (1960s) had wood shop, metal shop, and drafting class. The shop teachers I had were incredibly gifted and certainly got me hooked on designing and building things.

[Garth Almgren]

Speaking of Primitive Pete: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkse0OBDIVQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC4_VUvIgig :)

[John Vernier]

The thing that sticks in my crawl, are the people who complain about to many choices. it took all I had to not punch a guy in the face the other day at my local WW store. he started off complaining about how the new LV planes aren't needed, then went on and was complaining about all the boutique saw makers and how they wen't needed either. His premise was that we now had to many options and that it was making beginners confused. God forbid a beginner might spend some time learning about what they need before they start buying stuff.

Indeed. You want to see confusion, look at a circa 1900 Disston saw catalog, or any edge-tool catalog of the period. Of course, most average homeowners would have bought what their local hardware store carried, then as now. Most of the finer distinctions were for the pros to choose from, and the catalogs rarely explained nuances of function.

[Larry Edgerton]

Box stores. They are responsible for the decline in tool quality with the lessons that they learned from WalMart. Every time I walk by the Porter Cable display of junk tools I get just a little depressd.............

Larry

[Kent Cartwright]

I think the biggest thing the erks me about stuff today is the "throw away in a few years" mentality. Whether its dishwaters/washers/dryers or hand tools, making stuff out of cheap plastic, knowing it has a short lifespan, just seems crazy. The tin-foil hat conspiracy theory part of me almost thinks this is "planned" by the manufacturers, so they can sell you another product for some crazy expensive price, ten years down the road, as most people don't know how to and won't figure out how to fix stuff.

I mean, when is the last time someone replaced the brushes on a motor on something that wasn't a big ole hunk of iron? Nowadays, that tool is long gone in the dustbin before the brushes are ever even close to needing work.

Kent

[Brian Holcombe]

Andre
You are so right, I went back to Stanley's Catalogue, and in fine print the $3.00 is for 12 Awls just about 25 cents each.

Scott
You can have this Blue Spruce Awl for $55.00 plus shipping. Tom
http://www.bluesprucetools.com/PDGImages/LSA1_big.jpg

Have one, it's a great tool and made well.

I'll get up on my high horse for a brief moment. I like to support the small tool makers in the way that I can, since they care about quality and produce a great product.

If you purchase a cheap, poorly made tool you're telling the manufacturer that you don't mind the decline in quality.

[Myk Rian]

For the 1 millionth post on SMC, I was presented with this Awl/Knife set. I made the cherry box for them, and use them on almost every project.

[Moses Yoder]

I wonder what the people on this group would do, the average of them, if they were faced with the decision of buying an awl for $4 or $55? A lot of what I see on these boards, here and the Coleman forum, is posts bragging about what a good deal they got. In other words, people are proud of buying something that is worth more than they paid for it. Then we blame the manufacturers for making cheap tools. We are the manufacturers.

[Art Mann]

The tool manufacturing and quality situation is most easily understood when one realizes that tool companies have never been in the business to make quality tools. They have always been in the business to make money. To do that, they have to give the public what they demand. In the first half of the 20th century, quality and usability were valued highly enough that people paid the price for it even though they had less money to spend than today. In recent years, the public has been more interested in buying at the lowest possible price regardless of quality. In order to provide that, companies have been forced to compromise quality and hire cheap labor in foreign countries. There is nothing morally or ethically wrong with a company doing that. In fact, there is an ethical problem with doing otherwise. If you want someone to blame for the sorry state of affairs, look out your window at your neighbor or perhaps look at yourself in a mirror.


Small high quality and high price tool companies are doing the same thing. They are taking advantage of that tiny percentage of people who are still willing to pay $55 for a scratch awl, for example. You can bet they wouldn't stay in business if nobody wanted that kind of quality.

For 25 years or so, I used a scratch awl that I made from an old screw driver. I never desired anything better. Finally, a friend built and gave me a very nice wood, brass and high carbon steel awl as a present. It is a thing of beauty but it doesn't scratch metal or create a screw starting point any better than my old one. If I were looking for a new one, I would check with Harbor Freight.

[ray hampton]

There is nothing morally or ethically wrong with a company doing that. In fact, there is an ethical problem with doing otherwise. If you want someone to blame for the sorry state of affairs, look out your window at your neighbor or perhaps look at yourself in a mirror.

I have to disagree with this statement

For 25 years or so, I used a scratch awl that I made from an old screw driver. I never desired anything better. Finally, a friend built and gave me a very nice wood, brass and high carbon steel awl as a present. It is a thing of beauty but it doesn't scratch metal or create a screw starting point any better than my old one. If I were looking for a new one, I would check with Harbor Freight.[/QUOTE]

I was a welder at one time and the best scratch awls are the tool that welders use to scratch steel or other metals, I am willing to bet that this tool would scratch a diamond, a knife is the best tool to scratch wood that I know of BUT MAYBE NOT FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON THAT TEND TO CUT THEMSELVES

[Terry Beadle]

My complaint is the rate at which prices have risen. Tool values are doing much better than my 401k investments. Some times by a factor above 2.

What the vendors have been doing is not researching their costs vs their greed.

My complements are that there are so many good quality choices now on the market. Especially the wood planes, measuring tools, and chisels.

Just for balance and giggles, the fish don't bite as much now that I'm older...hoot!

[paul cottingham]

I am on a pension, so buying something twice or three times doesn't make a lot of financial sense. I also like to support local vendors (read North American) with my limited funds. Can't really bitch about the economy when I am contributing to its problems by off shoring my money.
the fact that the better boutique tools work well, and work the first time is a contributing factor as well.
just my $.02

[Brian Holcombe]

My complaint is the rate at which prices have risen. Tool values are doing much better than my 401k investments. Some times by a factor above 2.

What the vendors have been doing is not researching their costs vs their greed.

My complements are that there are so many good quality choices now on the market. Especially the wood planes, measuring tools, and chisels.

Just for balance and giggles, the fish don't bite as much now that I'm older...hoot!

IMO the overall price speaks little to 'greed', which is something that doesn't apply well in this instance. Anyone in business takes risk, the reward for that risk is not greed it is reward for risk. That being said, I don't know what the margins of companies like Lie Nielsen are, but I do know that they sell direct to the customer because their margins do not allow a middle man. Compare that to a $4 awl which likely has some incredible margins built in, enough to satisfy the requirements of the BORG.

I don't know what it costs to manufacture a chisel in America, but considering that a shop hour at most woodshops will cost $100, it can't be cheap.

I am not happy to pay a high price blindly, but I am happy to pay a fair price that happens to be high because I know the work being performed is by someone qualified to perform it and the design is created by someone putting quality ahead of cost.

The same way I would hope that a patron of fine woodwork feels when they are making a purchase.

[Lee Schierer]

Box stores. They are responsible for the decline in tool quality with the lessons that they learned from WalMart. Every time I walk by the Porter Cable display of junk tools I get just a little depressd.............

Larry

We like to blame Wally World and the Borgs for poor quality stuff, but the fact is nearly everyone buys their stuff there. Some by choice and others because there is no other choice anymore. Quality only improves if consumers demand it. Just look at what happened to the American automobile manufacturers.

Most consumers are into the throw away mentality that they will buy something for a single use then won't need it anymore so why pay for the higher priced item when I can get by with a cheaper item.

[Larry Edgerton]

We like to blame Wally World and the Borgs for poor quality stuff, but the fact is nearly everyone buys their stuff there. Some by choice and others because there is no other choice anymore. Quality only improves if consumers demand it. Just look at what happened to the American automobile manufacturers.

Most consumers are into the throw away mentality that they will buy something for a single use then won't need it anymore so why pay for the higher priced item when I can get by with a cheaper item.

I know that is true, but I just wish they had left Porter Cable the tool company for professionals instead of using the good name to sell junk. I have probably over 100 old Porter Cable tools and they are wearing out.....

Larry

Larry

[Jim Matthews]

Quality only improves if consumers demand it. Just look at what happened to the American automobile manufacturers.

This implies that consumers would be willing to pay for quality.
In the 1990s it was made clear that consumers would willingly pay less, for shoddy goods.

The resurgent interest in craft, and making things ourselves was born out of the frustration
we feel when something we just paid for disintegrates.

Automobiles have regulatory standards that lead to higher quality levels,
by legislation requirements.

The stuff we buy off the shelves at hardware stores is built to the minimum standards.

Anymore, I'm buying from the local suppliers to the trades.
At least I don't have to replace the parts they sell me.

[Lee Schierer]

Anymore, I'm buying from the local suppliers to the trades.
At least I don't have to replace the parts they sell me.

Exactly, if more people did this then quality would improve in other outlets as well.

[Duane Meadows]

...

Anymore, I'm buying from the local suppliers to the trades.
At least I don't have to replace the parts they sell me.

In this area, there is 1 local supplier. Their major tool brand is Shopfox! They used to sell Jet. I have a jet planer/moulder I bought from them about 20 years ago. At that time the Jet was the same price as the nearly identical Grizzly model. Nowadays Jet is way over priced for about the same quality level in my opinion. In some cases the quality may be somewhat better, but not enough to justify double the cost!

I am willing to pay more for quality, but double the cost, for a 10-20% improvement in quality just doesn't make a lot of since!

I fully agree on the PC issue. Used to like PC tools... still have several. Not near as likely to buy more.

Thing is, for every one of us willing to pay more for quality, there are a hundred or more that will buy the cheap tools every time. I do it myself. Many of my air nailers are from Harbor Frieght(gasp!). They are cheap, they work, and I can buy several for the price of 1 Senco. Don't buy nails there though... don't ask me why! The BORG(hate that term) knows this and stocks their store accordingly. Our HD here in Mansfield, doesn't even stock major tools! They are happy to order them, but if I am going to buy sight unseen, I'll go Grizzly.. at least I know they have never disappointed me!

Even Powermatic stuff comes from overseas these days(expensive Chiwanese, but Chiwanese none the less) Euro stuff while good quality, just doesn't fit my hobby/semi-professional budget!

[Rich Engelhardt]

I know that is true, but I just wish they had left Porter Cable the tool company for professionals instead of using the good name to sell junk.That's been going on since the beginning of time & I'm sure it will go on for as long as there are companies selling items & it's not limited to tools.
A company markets a high quality affordable item - they get in some sort of situation where they need money or someone with deep pockets comes along - the company gets sold and the high quality product turn to junk.
Be it tools, motor cycles, electronics or whatever, it's going to happen & unsuspecting ignorant buyers will get snookered out of their hard earned money.


Euro stuff while good quality, just doesn't fit my hobby/semi-professional budget!The real shame often is that more and more of that expensive Euro stuff is being made in China and a Euro name plate slapped on it.
You don't know it's Chinese until you get it home and go over it and the literature with a magnifying glass to spot the tiny lettering that says "made in China".
I got suckered into a Bosch hammer drill like that.

[Peter Kelly]

The real shame often is that more and more of that expensive Euro stuff is being made in China and a Euro name plate slapped on it.
You don't know it's Chinese until you get it home and go over it and the literature with a magnifying glass to spot the tiny lettering that says "made in China".
I got suckered into a Bosch hammer drill like that.I'm pretty sure Robert Bosch Tool Corporation is based in the US hence the Made in China labelling. The EU doesn't have terribly strict country of origin labelling legislation so China-made products sold there aren't typically labelled with any COO info at all.

[Pat Barry]

The real shame often is that more and more of that expensive Euro stuff is being made in China and a Euro name plate slapped on it.
You don't know it's Chinese until you get it home and go over it and the literature with a magnifying glass to spot the tiny lettering that says "made in China".
Phooey - China isn't the only place where poor quality can be had. Just look at GM.

[rudy de haas]

The quality prioblem is not tool specific - even [junk] plywood is now made in China.

My wife and I have a policy of paying more for made in Canada or USA products, but most people value by price.

Some people, of course, go beyond what Stanley does: they don't just omit the information, they allow vendor sites to lie. For example, this Amazon page
http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-G0675-Jointer-Planer-10-Inch/dp/B0027W4488 lists the Grizzly G0675 as "Made in the U.S.A." It isn't - and they know about the page because I offered to pay extra for a Made in U.S.A. model.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm pretty sure Robert Bosch Tool Corporation is based in the US hence the Made in China labeling.I can't tell if they are or not.
The "About Bosch" isn't real clear about where the HQ are located for the tool group. The "About Bosch" for the appliance group OTOH, make it clear as a bell they are located in Germany.


Phooey - China isn't the only place where poor quality can be had. Just look at GM.
True - but - still, when I bought a Bosch brand hammer drill, I really expected to buy something made by Bosch and something that was worth the price.
What I ended up with is a hammer drill, made in China, that Bosch buys and sticks their name on.
I could have saved myself $50.00 by just buying a similar Chinese made hammer drill at Harbor Freight.

[ray hampton]

Phooey - China isn't the only place where poor quality can be had. Just look at GM.

one product that answer to the name " china " is made in the states and this is stoneware and porcelain dishes

[Tony Haukap]

Thing is, for every one of us willing to pay more for quality, there are a hundred or more that will buy the cheap tools every time. I do it myself.
http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif I have to assume that maybe they're buying these things because there's no other choice readily available to them?
http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif We have a tool store here about 7 miles from me - it's been there maybe 10 years or more - and it's nothing but aisle after aisle of China made junk. I've been in there three times with the intent of buying something and have walked out empty handed every time.
http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif But there is no equivalent store locally that sells quality tools. Lowes and Home Depot have Milwaulkee and DeWalt and that's about the best they offer... Ace Hardware and True Value have Black&Decker and no real professional brand tools. There's nobody locally that carries Hilti, Festool or Metabo. And if you want Snap On tools you have to arrange to meet a guy in a parking lot like a drug deal! :)
http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif Price isn't an important factor for me... woodworking is only a hobby for me, so I don't need to justify the cost. But, for most of these things even at twice the price we're still not talking about a lot money. It gives me a sense of pride when I pick up a quality made tool to use it and in my mind there will never be any pride of ownership with any chinese tool.
http://i58.tinypic.com/2s7xdhc.gif

[Ole Anderson]

GM bashing. Ugh. That gets in my craw...

Speaking of scratch awls, if you have ever used a Vargas deburring tool with the replaceable blades, you can get a #B50 carbide tipped scriber insert. Wow, those babies are sharp and will scratch the hardest steel.

[Peter Kelly]

I can't tell if they are or not.
The "About Bosch" isn't real clear about where the HQ are located for the tool group. The "About Bosch" for the appliance group OTOH, make it clear as a bell they are located in Germany.http://www.robertboschtoolcorporation.com/Pages/default.aspx
Right side column of page. Chicago area.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Saw that - however, they don't just simply state that the headquarters are in Mount Pleasant.
They really dance around the issue of where Bosch is headquartered.

If you look at Bosch appliance:
http://www.bosch-home.com/us/about-bosch/company-overview.html
They are crystal clear in the first sentence where their home is - then go on to stress that they are German based.

It's really odd - & somewhat annoying since it's almost as if they are ashamed of being based in the US and want to skirt around it.

[Michael Moscicki]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH



Headquarters
Stuttgart, Germany



Robert Bosch GmbH, or Bosch, is a German multinational engineering and electronics company headquartered in Gerlingen, near Stuttgart, Germany.
In North America, Robert Bosch LLC (a wholly owned Bosch subsidiary) has corporate headquarters in Farmington Hills, MI.
In the US, power tools are provided by the Robert Bosch Tool Corporation based in Mt. Prospect, Illinois.

Not much secret there.

Made in China/India/Malaysia/Mexico/Taiwan/Thailand, etc. I would rather pay more for a quality American, Canadian, or European made tool and have it last then to buy one every few years.

The other thing is different brands selling the same tools with different paint jobs. So much choice there. Well at least the parts are interchangeable.

[Rod Sheridan]

What I find so astounding about tools today is that you can purchase good quality tools for very few hours of your wages.

A few hours buys a nice Lee Valley plane, or some good chisels.

Hobby users now have some very good machinery, often running into multiple thousands of dollars for one machine.

A far cry from what our parents were able to afford................Regards, Rod.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Not much secret thereNothing really official either. Wikopedia is just someone's opinion/speculation/conclusion. I could just as easily go to that article and type in the Bosch North America has it's headquarters in a secure location just outside of Dogpatch :D.

Be that as it may, it makes little to no difference to me.

Bosch stung me for a hammer drill & because of that, I'll avoid buying anything else from them forever - so - I don't care one way or another where they make their stuff.

[scott vroom]

Made in China/India/Malaysia/Mexico/Taiwan/Thailand, etc. I would rather pay more for a quality American, Canadian, or European made tool and have it last then to buy one every few years.



I've owned a China Bosch 1587 AVS jig saw for 10 years and have abused the s__t out of it on construction sites and in the shop. It performs like it did the day I purchased it. Personally I think this China bashing thing is a bit over blown. These power hand tools are made in mostly automated factories and there's no reason to expect poor quality just because a high quality mfg plant is located outside Germany, Canada or the USA.

I agree with Rod...there are more tool choices available to us, of all quality levels, than were available to our parents. If you don't want China made, don't buy China made....there are most always other options. Perhaps the real issue is that folks just don't ant to shell out the dollars for domestic/european tools. I grew up in a typical middle class family and my Dad couldn't afford the same quality of tools that are available today at lower cost adjusted for inflation.

[Terry Wawro]

I think we sometimes look at the past with rose colored glasses. There were cheap crappy tool back then too. I know, because I bought them! Pliers that bent, coping saws that twisted, blades that wandered and wrenches that slipped. Still, if we wanted it at all, it was really all we could afford. “Craftsmen” tools from Sears were considered the high end. We could not afford them. Snap-On was not even in the running. They were something only professionals bought.

Back then we bought the cheap tools and they worked (or not) accordingly. I learned and over time purchased better.
Still, over time even cheap tools have gotten much better. I’ve purchased some back up hand tools from Harbor Freight and they are way, way better than the old el-cheapo tools from my past.

For those who appreciate and can afford them then nice, made in the USA, top of the line tools are still available. That is what keeps Lee Valley and others like them in business.

Politics and wage rants aside, it’s amazing what you can get for so little now.