CS's Blog Post on Notched Battens

[ken hatch]

Anyone else see CS's post on notched battens and Richard Maguire? I've been using notched battens for awhile and their use allowed me to eliminate the tail vise on my last bench build. It was pretty much win win, easier and cheaper bench build then in use less monkey motion to hold the work piece. I have a Paramo vise from the 70's that I planned to mount as an end vise if after working on the new bench for awhile I felt the need....I don't expect it to happen.

[Andy Hsieh]

Most excellent read and video - Simple works. I still would not kick my end vise out of bed but I like the option and it does look like you can really cook through boards of same size faster. I'm gonna take the 5 minutes it takes to make one and try it out.

i imagine at some point, we'll see someone thickness a board with just a scraper negating the need for a jack or smoother but only time will tell...I am joking of course ��

[Pat Barry]

Anyone else see CS's post on notched battens and Richard Maguire? I've been using notched battens for awhile and their use allowed me to eliminate the tail vise on my last bench build. It was pretty much win win, easier and cheaper bench build then in use less monkey motion to hold the work piece. I have a Paramo vise from the 70's that I planned to mount as an end vise if after working on the new bench for awhile I felt the need....I don't expect it to happen.
Nope - I haven't a clue what you are referring to. Which thread was that one in?

[ken hatch]

Pat,

blog.lostartpress.com/2014/10/26/in-defense-of-the-notched-batten/

I've a big yellow to go with the chocolate one in my avatar. There isn't a sweeter or better dog.

ken

[ken hatch]

Andy,

One of the reasons I built the new bench was the split on the old bench was right where I needed a dog hole for the holdfast. I didn't install an end vise and have not missed it nor did I expect to. The old bench had a wagon vise that may have been used a half dozen times over the 3 or 4 years it was my primary bench. Of course as always YMMV.

ken

[Pat Barry]

Pat,

blog.lostartpress.com/2014/10/26/in-defense-of-the-notched-batten/

I've a big yellow to go with the chocolate one in my avatar. There isn't a sweeter or better dog.

ken
Thanks for the link. Now I understand. I put that in the category of 'there's more than one way to ...'. I actually could make use of that method.

[Sean Hughto]

Seems like CS built a bit of strawman to be outraged by. Kees question about existence in the historical record did not seem the least offensive or meant to suggest that the technique was not legitimate if no historical evidence could be cited.

[Kees Heiden]

I don't quite remember that thread anymore. Did I question the historical relevance? I thought it was a mighty brilliant idea and sometimes I use this trick.

[Sean Hughto]

I read the comments to the guy's original posts, and the only thing I saw that came close to what CS referes to is a question from you about whether there are paintings or books depicting this.

[ken hatch]

As I expect most woodworkers could care less about the historical record, the referral kinda went over my head. Now that I know the back story it is still pretty much a non-issue.

Bottom line: There are ways to hold work that do not require vises, many are very useful and sometimes better. That said, you ain't going to ever get me to give up my English QR face vise (Paramo 52). God Save the Queen. :-)

[Kees Heiden]

Now I remember. It was Warren on Woodnet who questioned if this device has been around for hundreds of years, because he liked to see a reference first. So I thought, why not ask Richard himself? But woodnet threads disappear after a year, so I have no idea anymore what all the houpla was about. The idea is great, and it is kind of fun that Roubo wrote about it too. So afterall Richard was right, this idea was really hundreds of years old.

[Daniel Rode]

I don't much care if the notched batten dates back to Egyptian tomb builders or McGuire invented it yesterday. I saw him demonstrate it in a video a little while ago and gave it a try. It's darn useful way to hold a board if you ask me.

[Matthew Hills]

I recall some of the original coverage of the notched batten, but hadn't viewed the video (http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=1434). Makes me want to try it now (and get a fore plane like Richard is using).

I don't recall any particular controversy for this... maybe this is a blogger's version of ptsd?

I recall more controversy over Richard's dimpling of his holdfasts (http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=1329)
Matt

[David Weaver]

... maybe this is a blogger's version of ptsd?


Seems like it. The original poster's response was pleasant and a good time was had by all. I don't subscribe to any blogs, but if McGuire's stuff is as similar and useful as that, without trying to become a blog personality, I may have to go subscribe to his.

If warren doesn't ask relevant and reasonable questions, I don't really know who does. Looking things up after the fact as a gotcha is a truly internet thing.

[Graham Haydon]

It is a decent way to hold things for sure. I ended up finding more success with a rounded end. I found it less sensitive as you can move the batten to suit the clamping point without loosing contact on the corners.

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Not sure about the holfast dimple issue but I have an oldish one with dimples all down it's back.

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[Jim Koepke]

The notched batten has had some use on my bench. Do not recall where it was first seen. Thought it was on someone here who showed it on their blog.

The notched batten works, but it will not replace my tail vise.

This is another one of the many ways of doing work based on how an individual chooses to do their craft.

My use of a method isn't influenced on whether it was discovered last week or rediscovered in a centuries old drawing. If it works for me, it gets used, if not then it can go in the history bin along with all of my other ideas that may work "if only... "

Graham's twist with the curved notch looks interesting.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

I questioned the use of the notched board for restraining a board being planed. I have planed without a tail vise for over 40 years. I have used notched boards for restraint for other operations for over thirty years. There are always a few of these boards sitting in back of or under my bench.

Roubo calls the notched board pied de biche and says it is used to hold boards that are too short (Quand elle sont trop courtes). It is illustrated in Plate 14 figure 16. The text incorrectly refers to it as figure 19. The Roubo illustrations of face planing show boards loose on the bench, as do many many other illustrations over four centuries or so. Here are some examples:
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[David Weaver]

Warren, do you use any lateral restraint for the boards while you're planing, or just a stop at the far end of the board?

Your question, given the context as the notched board being used for short pieces (as opposed to not commenting at all and implying it's for use in general) seems perfectly reasonable.

I'm not surprised that you knew the issue thoroughly already, enough to pose a question, and as the blog states above, your critic in this instance had to "come across it". Some things don't change. The bulk of us wood hackers are just happy that you and george are around so that we can get knowledge on the fly, backed up with practical experience.

[Daniel Rode]

I'm really curious how you hold the board when planing at 45 or 60 degrees without a batten or tail vice. I've tried a couple different methods but nothing has been a raving success yet. Perhaps this has been covered before, so please excuse my ignorance.

I questioned the use of the notched board for restraining a board being planed. I have planed without a tail vise for over 40 years. I have used notched boards for restraint for other operations for over thirty years.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm really curious how you hold the board when planing at 45 or 60 degrees without a batten or tail vice. I've tried a couple different methods but nothing has been a raving success yet. Perhaps this has been covered before, so please excuse my ignorance.

Daniel,

This depends on how your bench is set up. The most effective way is to have a batten running the length of the bench or at least the length of the work. Some have made benches with a removable piece in the top that can be replaced with a batten to create a wall of sorts the workpiece butts against.

Having a row of dog holes set in from the edge to allow short dogs to control lateral movement is also an option.

Almost as many ways to tackle a problem as there are people doing the work.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

I have a tail vice and I use it often. It's not ideal but I made a space set to deal with racking and it's a pretty decent setup now. I also installed an adjustable planing stop on the other end and commonly use this combined with a batten. The planing stop turns out to be far more useful than I expected. A birdsmouth style batten is option 3. They all have merits but I don't do enough flattening by hand to have a good feel for the process yet.

Daniel,

This depends on how your bench is set up. The most effective way is to have a batten running the length of the bench or at least the length of the work. Some have made benches with a removable piece in the top that can be replaced with a batten to create a wall of sorts the workpiece butts against.

Having a row of dog holes set in from the edge to allow short dogs to control lateral movement is also an option.

Almost as many ways to tackle a problem as there are people doing the work.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

I have hardly ever planed at 45 degrees and I have not seen this in historic work or old drawings or texts. I plane mostly with the grain against the stop. If there is a great deal to remove I put the board across the bench (Moxon says "turn the grain athwart the work-bench and plane upon the cross-grain") and still plane toward the stop. I have occasionally used a batten, though not for some years. In old work we sometimes see surfaces planed at a slight diagonal, which is possible to do with a single stop. There is at least one historic drawing of planing against a side batten, and some lateral restraint is needed for some mouldings or for plowing a groove because you are holding a fence tight to the edge. I don't like to hear that the board needs to be clamped tight on the bench; for me it was kind of liberating to discover that I could plane with the board loose on the bench. I think the original context of this notched board discussion was that this was what people had to use in lieu of a tail vise.

I have seen demonstrations where some guys planed diagonally one way and then diagonally the other way and never checked with winding sticks. It is quite a bit easier to assess with the winding sticks and only plane diagonally in the direction that helps with wind. I think that historically workers did a lot less planing that was not with the grain.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks Warren!

I just assumed that everyone planed diagonally as a normal part of dressing a board. I assumed it had been done that way historically as well. I learn something here every day.

[Steve Voigt]

for me it was kind of liberating to discover that I could plane with the board loose on the bench.

Yeah, +1. It was liberating for me too. The board doesn't distort under clamping pressure, and you don't waste a lot of time clamping/unclamping. I have an end vice, but don't use it much any more.

[David Weaver]

Thanks for the explanation, Warren.