General Practice

[David Ragan]

Last night I stained the little table. It was awful. I was tired. It got sloppy.

Some TransTint Vintage Maple was what I used (1:1 with water)-now it has more of a golden color; it was way too dark so I went over it w some 400 sandpaper (I know-abrasive).

How one should do this is to get a high quality brush, load a little (when not in a hurry) and be very methodical. (The problem-the way it looks is that where I put my brush/foam/rag on it seem to blotch, then less so--so I end up just flooding the stain on and hoping for the best.) I made a table last year, and it turned out OK.

When I go back in tonite, all the water will presumably be evaporated-I suppose I'll spray some lacquer over it. That will probably darken it again.

Overall, it is a real shame to spend all that time on a project and then do so poorly with the finish. I have even considered scrapping to entire thing, but then the next one will be just as sorry. :(

More reading required-Jewett, et al

Thanks all, David

[Rich Engelhardt]

Read my signature......

I've heard it said and read it said many different ways & what Jim says is one of the most to the point.

[glenn bradley]

Take heart and a deep breath. What Rich says is true and now that you've sanded I am not sure what the protocol might be so I'll just speak from experience.

1. Consider how your piece will be finished as you design it.
2. Always prep a few pieces of stock following your same surface prep protocol (sanding, planing, scraping) and test your finishing schedule on them.
3. Now you know how your finish will look so it is just a matter of applying it.

When I get unexpected intensity (too strong a color) from dye due to irregularity in the material I often find I can even things out with a rag soaked in the dye's vehicle if it is water or DNA. A generous scrubbing of the spot in question will lighten things up. This is where your test boards come in since dyes are often flat or muddy looking until the top coat is applied. I cannot tell how a dyed piece will look after my top coat hits it without having done several test boards first.

Good luck and take it easy on yourself. f you can recover this piece to your satisfaction, there will be a glue up just waiting to mess with you right around the corner ;)

[Prashun Patel]

1:1 ratio (50%) is too concentrated for Transtint. I use it at 2%!

The blotch is lap marks because there are uneven concentrations of dye being deposited. You can reverse this to an extent. Transtint dye, unlike stain, does not contain a sealer/binder. So, it can be lifted to an extent. Be patient. Wipe the piece with a wet rag. Rinse and repeat. You will not remove it all, but you will be able to reduce the stark contrasts. Putting moisture into the wood will also help move the existing dye around.

Let it dry, then repeat this. You will need some patience, but you can remove much of it. Resist the temptation to WASH the piece under water. You risk warping (DAMHIKT...).

After a couple rounds of this, make a new solution of the TT in 2% and apply it this way: Soak a sponge with it, flood it on quickly, and then wipe it around to distribute the wet dye with the sponge until the pools disappear. Squeeze out the sponge and wipe off the excess moisture from the surface. This gives you quick, even coverage. Let it dry, and then repeat until your color is as you wish.

Also, IIRC, you were going for a dark finish. the TT Antique Maple is yellow...

Last, if you don't mind going for a darker color altogether, consider staining right over top of your 'blotched dye job'. Dyeing then staining is a great way to get superb depth of color.

[David Ragan]

So, once the wood has dried out, I can still take some of the stain out.

And, once it has dried, it will accept more stain?

If the TransTint, or anything else is not so concentrated, how do I make it dark? Wait until wood dries, then put another coat on?

And by top coat--that is shellac, lacquer, polyurethane?

[Prashun Patel]

Once the wood has dried, you can take some of the DYE out. STAIN commonly refers to Minwax-ish stuff you started with. That is a combination of colorant AND a sealer to lock the color in. The Transtint is a colorant WITHOUT the sealer. So, yes, once it dries, you can lift some out. You cannot do that with the Minwax.

Once it has dried it will, yes, accept more DYE. It will also accept more stain, but if you stain, then the surface will not accept more dye or stain; With a dye, you can keep on applying it at 2% until it gets as deep as you want it. It will get deeper, not darker; you'll never get to black, only deep yellow/amber.

You make the Transtint DARK by using a darker dye (like brown or black) or mixing it with that. You make the Transtint more 'brilliant' or bright, or deeper by repeating the application of more dye or by increasing the concentration of Transtint - and I mean like from 2% to 5% not from 2% to 50%.

Yes, topcoat/clearcoat = protective layer that locks in the color, protects the surface.

You've already noticed that the dye dries muted. When you put a top coat on it, it will look like it does when it's wet.

[Rich Engelhardt]

IIRC, regular chlorine bleach will lift dye.

[David Ragan]

I just looked up some of this. I have a chemistry background, so:
Dye-small molecules, no sealer. After it dries, you can put on more.
Stain-larger pigment molecules....in the Industry, stains by various manufacturers usually contain a sealer(?)
Minwax-has a sealer, so once it is in, there is no changing it (?) Is Minwax always a stain, ie pigment?
TransTint-is a dye, no pigment molecules.


From what I remember, pigments lodge in the grain and accentuate it, and fade with exposure to light?

[David Ragan]

And, it would make no sense to have a binder in with a dye, right?

[Jim Rimmer]

I agree with Glen's comment about the strength of your dye. 1:1 is too much; I add teaspoons of dye to cups of DNA a little at a time until I get the color I want (taking notes as I go). Loads of good advice from Prashun.

As suggested, make a test board from your project materials and follow your finish protocol all the way to the final step. Make as many as you need to get the color and finish you want. Don't ever let you project be your finish test sample.

[Jim Becker]

Did you go through your finishing regimen on scrap of the same material your project is built from before going to the actual project piece? If not, it's a "best practice" to do so...and it often mitigates a lot of potential heartbreak when something doesn't work. It's always best to work out ALL the steps to at least the first coat of the final top coat that way. Document each try until you hit what you like. Then use your documentation to "do the deed" to your masterpiece!

[Scott Holmes]

What kind of wood did you use? How does it look while it is still wet with the dye? Sanding is not the best way to remove the dye; chlorine bleach will lighten the dye.

Yes dyes have no binder and you can add multiple coats to darken the finish. You can also mix it a bit stronger to get the color you want.

[Steve Schoene]

The way I apply water mixed dye is with a sponge. This allows me to flood the surface, starting from the bottom and working up if the surface is not horizontal. After the application, I wring out the sponge and use it to sop up any puddles that remain on the surface. This method lets the concentration of the dye to principally determine the shade of the color. It's too hard to use a brush and try to avoid any overlaps, especially if you are moving slowly to be meticulous. You need to finish the dye application before the dye has dried on any of the surface.

[Kent A Bathurst]

The way I apply water mixed dye is with a sponge. This allows me to flood the surface, starting from the bottom and working up if the surface is not horizontal. After the application, I wring out the sponge and use it to sop up any puddles that remain on the surface. This method lets the concentration of the dye to principally determine the shade of the color. It's too hard to use a brush and try to avoid any overlaps, especially if you are moving slowly to be meticulous. You need to finish the dye application before the dye has dried on any of the surface.

I'm similar to Steve.......

Small cotton rag folded to hand-size in my right hand.

1 qt mix cup with WB dye solution in it [not near a qt - I just want an over-size container with a large mouth].

Pile of clean cotton rags near my left hand, starting with one in my hand.

Slop and spread with right hand, swirling motion, and left hand is right behind it, smoothing, spreading,and wiping all excess.

Replace left hand rags frequently.

Go like smoke and oakum.

When done, grab a used left-hand rag - one fairly well loaded - and go back over the entire surface, smoothing and leveling the color - dab more with right had if needed.

One last pass with clean rags in both hands.

Use this method from small rails all the way up to 44" x 86" table top.

I always finish components before assembly, FWIW.

[William Huver]

Hello David, You noted in your initial post, "More reading required-Jewett, et al." I happen to have a Bob Flexner book. I highly recommend getting either, or both. My finishing book is the most used book I own. Between the books, and the excellent recommendations as above to test with a scrap from your project, I no longer worry the whole time I'm building my project about messing it up with the finishing process, nor do I have the frustration afterward.

Prashun's comments above are a great overview of dye vs. pigment stains. I'll just add that the advantages of dye stains are that they do not "muddy" the wood grain as pigment stains do and they can be manipulated a great deal fairly easily. Dyes soak in and color the wood fibers, while pigments rely on catching in the grain of the wood. I liken them to kids watercolors vs. chalk. Pigment stains contain a "binder", which is usually varnish, but can be oil, lacquer or water based, to "stick" the pigment to the wood. Otherwise, you would be able to blow or wipe the pigment off, just like chalk. Note that the binder is the same as one of the topcoat/clear finishes you might use, only thinner, so once you use a pigment stain, you've "locked" the color in place. Note that dye stains tend to dry very quickly, so get some extra hands to help wipe the excess off if needed.

You mentioned that you used TransTint (a type of dye stain), but you also asked questions about Minwax. Minwax, as with most other "home store" brand stains, are almost always pigment stains. However, they can also be a combination of pigment and dye, or just dye, depending on the color you choose. If unsure, you can test with a wooden stirring stick. Without shaking or stirring the can, pigment (large molecules held in suspension as a sol colloid, if I remember my chemistry) will have settled to the bottom, while dye (dissolved in solution) will soak into the wood and color the stick.

To lighten a dye stain after it has been applied, try wiping it off with water first. If needed, you can remove more of the color with regular chlorine bleach, as recommended above, but dilute it with 5 - 10 parts water to avoid changing the natural color of the wood. As others mentioned, it is best to apply dye stains mixed lighter than the color you want and apply additional coats until you get to the color depth you're looking for. You can even apply a different color to get the look you want, or add a coat of a pigment stain as the last step before the clear finish.

The comments about careful selection of wood for your project are good ones too. Certain species sometimes have a tendency to blotch when stained.

Hope this helps...

Regards,
Bill

[David Ragan]

Thank you all for your help:)

This am, I went and applied some brushable lacquer over the dye, it evened it out. It now is very acceptable.

The wife can take to work, and not be embarrassed about it.

I have one dozen (12) books on finishing. LOL.

From now on, I will be more methodical.

Thank You again,
David

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> IIRC, regular chlorine bleach will lift dye

Yes, it will but you want to use a strong bleach. Swimming pool chlorine works well. Washing machine liquid bleach (aka Clorox) is too weak to do the best job.

It's good to note that there are three bleaches used in woodworking. One is the chlorine bleach used to lighten or remove dye stain. The second is oxalic acid (mostly marketed as "Wood Bleach") which is used to remove or lighten mineral stains like black marks from water. And, finally, two part A/B bleach used to remove or lighten the natural color of wood. Be sure to use the correct bleach for the best results.