Yesterday's Mail Had a Nice Surprise

[ken hatch]

A couple of weeks ago during a midnight prowl of Japanese tools I ordered a Kinshiro marking Gauge, It showed up yesterday. It's a beautiful tool.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/markingGauge_zps2172b14a.jpg

[Tony Sade]

And where, pray tell, did you find it?
Thnx,

[David Weaver]

High roller!

[Derek Cohen]

Ken, now you are in trouble! Nothing else will satisfy :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joe Bailey]

It would appear that you received that which you ordered -- in what way, shape or form, was this a surprise?

[Mike Holbrook]

Dang you! I heard they stopped making those? Very nice! I wonder how it compares to the Vernier "kegaki" marking gauges available through Tools from Japan. The single blade kegaki appears to be made from similar woods in the same shape, except for the metal scale. The double blade "kegaki" Stu sells looks similar too, but the main body is all one wood, no harder wood insert in the wear area. I bought a Les Outils Cullen Tools, Mortise Gauge, from LV. So far it want lock up square though. I think a brass pieces just needs to be ground down a little, so I have not returned it yet. What I don't have is a marking gauge with a very accurate scale, like the Vernier kegaki marking gauges. I'm not sure I need a gauge with a scale but it does seem like it would be faster and helpful in a number of instances.

[Jim Koepke]

Good score Ken. It looks like it will leave a well defined line on just about any work piece.


I'm not sure I need a gauge with a scale but it does seem like it would be faster and helpful in a number of instances.

The scale on a marking gauge intrigues me as to its usefulness. Most likely the usefulness of a scale would come from methods of work different than mine. Some of my Stanley marking gauges have scales but they do not seem to make the gauges any easier to set up or use.

jtk

[ken hatch]

And where, pray tell, did you find it?
Thnx,

Try Iida Tool.


High roller!

When you get my age you try to make sure days and dollars equal zero at the same time, I don't want to waste either :-).

[ken hatch]

Dang you! I heard they stopped making those? Very nice! I wonder how it compares to the Vernier "kegaki" marking gauges available through Tools from Japan. The single blade kegaki appears to be made from similar woods in the same shape, except for the metal scale. The double blade "kegaki" Stu sells looks similar too, but the main body is all one wood, no harder wood insert in the wear area. I bought a Les Outils Cullen Tools, Mortise Gauge, from LV. So far it want lock up square though. I think a brass pieces just needs to be ground down a little, so I have not returned it yet. What I don't have is a marking gauge with a very accurate scale, like the Vernier kegaki marking gauges. I'm not sure I need a gauge with a scale but it does seem like it would be faster and helpful in a number of instances.

Mike,

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one with a Cullen gauge that will not lock up properly, it's a shame because it is a nice gauge in the hand.

ken

[ken hatch]

Derek,

And that's the truth.

I have a gauge from the 70's I've been trying to find a replacement for but no joy. Spent a few USDs for less than perfect gauges and finally decided I'd better buy while there were still a few left.

ken

[ken hatch]

Jim,

I have several old Stanley gauges with scales as well. I can't see that the scales have much practical use....but that could just be me, like I'm guessing you do, my method of work is more marking off from other pieces rather than measuring.

ken

[Mike Holbrook]

I guess the scale question is relative. Unless we mark everything off with dividers, we need to figure where a mortise and the tenon need to be located on given pieces of wood don't we? Sure we can mark the locations with a ruler or other measuring devise that has some scale we can measure from, but wouldn't it be easier to have a scale on the marking devise? Sure we can mark based on chisel width, but which chisel if we don't have any kind of scale to get a rough idea of scale? If we use a story board isn't that a scale too?

I may have made a slight measuring mistake or two today working on some cabinets. Maybe I need to take just a little more off something to get a snug fit. Wouldn't it be convenient to use the gauge to measure and have it set for the right marking distance at the same time? Want I get the most accurate setting by setting the distance with the actual knife blade I will mark the piece with? It just seems to me that less transposing of distances between devises results in less error.

[Jim Koepke]

I guess the scale question is relative. Unless we mark everything off with dividers, we need to figure where a mortise and the tenon need to be located on given pieces of wood don't we? Sure we can mark the locations with a ruler or other measuring devise that has some scale we can measure from, but wouldn't it be easier to have a scale on the marking devise? Sure we can mark based on chisel width, but which chisel if we don't have any kind of scale to get a rough idea of scale? If we use a story board isn't that a scale too?

I may have made a slight measuring mistake or two today working on some cabinets. Maybe I need to take just a little more off something to get a snug fit. Wouldn't it be convenient to use the gauge to measure and have it set for the right marking distance at the same time? Want I get the most accurate setting by setting the distance with the actual knife blade I will mark the piece with? It just seems to me that less transposing of distances between devises results in less error.

Relatively speaking the more different scales one uses the more room for errors.

In the case of a mortise and tenon, an easy solution is to make all of the stock for the piece match and then make sure all the marking is done from the face side. This is so if there is any slight difference in the stock thickness it is to the back side.

Set the mortise gage to the chisel. Then use your mortise gauge to find center. This is done by first setting it from the face side to approximate center, make a small mark in a waste area or piece of scrap. Then check it from the back side and adjust as needed.

My work used to have a lot more measuring mistakes. My solution is to do less measuring and more setting gauges to the workpiece or working to the mating part of a joint. If a panel fits in its slot, it doesn't matter what tick on a scale it matches.

Possibly one of my most used measuring devices is a small Lufkin caliper.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Jim I wasn't thinking about using multiple scales just trying to decide if one scale, on one of my marking devises, might in some instances be useful and eliminate the need for other measuring tools. All the marking devices I have now do not have scales, for all the reasons you mention. I am reading my copy of "By Hand and Eye", learning to use dividers & calipers & lay out projects on a story board. I am fascinated with the idea of getting away from the confines of of marking everything by an inch scale. I have both metric and imperial chisels and measuring devices. Still I am wondering if some sort of scale, imperial or metric, might come in handy on a marking device on occasion? It occurred to me that having some sort of scale on my marking device might even save me from needing a tape measure, scaled square, dividers or calipers in some instances. My objective is to reduce reliance on scales and all measuring devices.

[David Weaver]

Did it come from Tomohito Iida? Iida and So Yamashita both have some left.

[ken hatch]

Did it come from Tomohito Iida? Iida and So Yamashita both have some left.

David,

Yep, from Tomohito Iida, he's down to just the large ones with Oak inserts. I'd been back and forth on getting one, no way to justify the cost but......

In a year or even in a few months I will forget the couple of dollars the gauge cost but will have the pleasure of working with a piece of art for ever.

ken

[ken hatch]

I guess the scale question is relative. Unless we mark everything off with dividers, we need to figure where a mortise and the tenon need to be located on given pieces of wood don't we? Sure we can mark the locations with a ruler or other measuring devise that has some scale we can measure from, but wouldn't it be easier to have a scale on the marking devise? Sure we can mark based on chisel width, but which chisel if we don't have any kind of scale to get a rough idea of scale? If we use a story board isn't that a scale too?

I may have made a slight measuring mistake or two today working on some cabinets. Maybe I need to take just a little more off something to get a snug fit. Wouldn't it be convenient to use the gauge to measure and have it set for the right marking distance at the same time? Want I get the most accurate setting by setting the distance with the actual knife blade I will mark the piece with? It just seems to me that less transposing of distances between devises results in less error.

Mike,

I answered too quickly with too little thought about your question. Like you I have things metric and things fractional in my shop. BTW, several years ago I moved to thinking in metric instead of fractional and that change has been the greatest driver in reducing measuring error in my shop. I will use a measure of some kind to establish the first piece's size and then from that piece mark off the others. I expect that is how most work. Using scales to establish that first piece which is what I think you are saying, yeah I expect a well marked scale on a marking tool could be very handy.

ken

[David Weaver]

David,

Yep, from Tomohito Iida, he's down to just the large ones with Oak inserts. I'd been back and forth on getting one, no way to justify the cost but......

In a year or even in a few months I will forget the couple of dollars the gauge cost but will have the pleasure of working with a piece of art for ever.

ken

The fit and finish of the irons themselves is something that nearly convinces me to do the same thing. I'm going over in my head how I'd make something similar, but have no idea how to do small work that accurately without literally taking bar stock and grinding it away and then filing it. And that would take forever (and it still wouldn't be as good).

Good things cost money!!

[David Weaver]

So has a couple of kinshiro gauges left, but the crooks at paypal are literally taking 7% on the currency exchange. I can't get on with that. If it would've been a reasonable amount on their part, I would be telling you that I ordered one already. They're crooks - 7% on the currency and then a fee to the seller. Highway robbery.

[David Weaver]

Mike - what is the narrowest mortise that your gauge will mark (as in, the minimum distance between the irons)?

[Jim Koepke]

I wasn't thinking about using multiple scales just trying to decide if one scale, on one of my marking devises, might in some instances be useful and eliminate the need for other measuring tools.

It could be useful in some instances. The best way to put the question to rest would be to acquire one and find out.

On the Tite-Mark® gauge, the threads are 20 per inch. That means a full turn of the adjuster moves the blade 0.05". Half revolution and quarter revolution adjustments would be 0.025" and 0.0125" respectively. Pretty soon one gets a feel for the adjustment without a scale.

With a good scale, if one was looking for center, it might speed the ability to hit it right on. Measure with the gauge, set to center test and most likely if there was an adjustment it would be rather slight.

Another thing that helps me measure in the shop is a bunch of wood pieces of various known sizes. They can be used like feeler gauges. They are very helpful when setting up things like the fence on a rabbet or plow plane. They can be used for checking depths of shoulders on M&T or lap joints. Chisels can also be used as a verification gauge.

Most of my actual measuring is done with an old four fold rule or a tape measure. It used to be a struggle to measure and make everything with gnat's eyelash accuracy. Now my work is easier with measuring or comparing to make the pieces fit together.

jtk

[Jeremy Johnson]

David - I found a trick on paypal for paying in foreign currency. You have to use a bank acct. through paypal, but you can change setting to use your bank's exchange rate. I bought my last couple chisels from Stu this way and it saved me 5+%.

it's explained in this lifehacker link: http://lifehacker.com/5957808/avoid-paypals-high-international-currency-exchange-rates-by-switching-one-little-option

I think I had to switch payment option to my debit card (as opposed to my bank acct.) to switch the option, but the exchange fee was close to zero.

[David Weaver]

I didn't say, but I should have yesterday, that I ordered Stu's higher priced kehiki or whatever the frig it's called, and I did so not just because of price but because it has wide blades in their beam thickness, but those wide blades have smaller blades of super blue steel welded to them, and can go closer together than the at blades on the kinshiro. I thought I had a mortise marking gauge of the cheapest type, but I may have thrown it away long ago in frustration at the beams being hard to control (something that after several years of small tool fiddling and minor plane making I could fix pretty easily now).

Anyway...

...i opted to buy the gauge from stu's store in yen and let the system sort it out later to see what would happen. couldn't be any worse than the near 7% they wanted. My account is linked with a paypal credit card, so I opted to use the credit card to pay for the purchase in yen.

Paypal's conversion before my scheme: 100.5 yen per dollar
Paypal credit card's conversion: 104.65 yen per dollar

That's quite a loophole, and one I can live with.

I ultimately didn't get the kinshiro because I couldn't bear to part with that many dollars right now (so yamashita has a large with ebony, but it would've been $350 or more with no guarantee that I could get a good mark for a 6mm chisel unless the gauge blades were slightly less than 3mm thick. )

[ken hatch]

David,

If you need to mark for a 3mm chisel, the Kinshiro is not the gauge you need. I just measured mine and the cutters are 4mm apart.

ken

[David Weaver]

That would've been fine.. It's less than 6, I maybe should've gone for it but did buy another different one off of peebay to go along with the one from stu's page.

[Mike Holbrook]

Sorry to bring this back up but I got lost between this and two other threads about marking devices.

David, the only double marking gauge I have is a Cullen from LV. I bought it after watching Kingshott's DVD on making mortises and tenons. He uses & likes a double pin gauge which is why I bought the Cullen. Unfortunately the Cullen will not lock up and when it half locks it does not lock square. I should have returned it but thought I might be able to fix it and have been researching the Cullen's here on SMC. Turns out several other people have had the same problem with the same Cullen gauge but so far I have not found anyone who has successfully repaired this gauge. If the Cullen locked there would be about 1/8" between the pins. The bars the pins are in prevent the user from getting the pins any closer together.

I have been trying to convince myself that I could get along without a double gauge. I was even giving some thought to ordering one of Stu's single blade gauges with a scale instead of the double blade marking gauge. I am still not sure which would be the better option for me, so I am thinking on it.

[David Weaver]

I don't think I could tolerate doing stuff like making cabinets without a mortise gauge unless I laid out every single mortise at once and could set each line one time. but I never work like that.

My pin gauge has a limit of how close it can get together, and I think it's effectively 1/4" (it's a crown or something equivalent). I also have a beech mortise gauge somewhere, but the brass rods holding the pins are so tight that it's really undesirable to use (whereas the nicer gauge has the screw adjustment. The crown gauge isn't bad to use, I should give the pins more attention, they're a bit long, but it's otherwise a decent gauge. I've never tried any of the cullen gauges, but they look nice.

(it looks like the crown #154 is now also about $70 - I remember it being more like $45, but I got it a while ago).

[Mike Holbrook]

The Cullen gauge looks nice and and appeared to be better made than the Crown or Marples gauges too. The holes in the fence are oversized compared to the marking arms though. The single blade cutting/marking gauge I also bought locks up square but the sliding brass rod that holds the adjustable inside pin has a rough surface that protrudes beyond the track it fits in. The picture of the Cullen mortise gauge in the LV on line store does not appear to have the same issue. I think they must have had a bad run of that part or something. Also the resin-impregnated wood which they use to make these gauges is so hard it takes a fair amount of pressure against it to hold it in place.

David, did you get your gauge from Stu yet? Maybe you will post a few impressions once you get a chance to use it. Funny you should mention cabinets David. I am in the process of reinforcing some old cabinets after which I plan to make some nicer cabinets

[David Weaver]

No, I didn't get it yet. I'd imagine that it's probably something made in miki or somewhere else and it's a two stop trip to get here instead of from stock (but you never know).

I'll post my thoughts about it when I get it and use it, especially since it's sort of middle of the road in price but should be ready to go out of the box.

[bridger berdel]

A couple of weeks ago during a midnight prowl of Japanese tools I ordered a Kinshiro marking Gauge, It showed up yesterday. It's a beautiful tool.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/markingGauge_zps2172b14a.jpg


Hey, I recognize that!


Thanks for the beech. I have some ideas....

[David Weaver]

So, I got the gauge from Stu today. The one that's made by Matsui (I think that's the brand) with the stainless arms and the super blue knives. It's super fantastic awesome. It's substantial compared to the smaller cheap ones, the knives are set up well out of the box even though they're only ground (they're biased toward the knife on the outside, which is the way you want bias on this type of gauge), the locking mechinism that's part of the blades locks the two solidly if you want it to (though you don't have to use it), and the thumb screw at the top of the plane locks the blades down well.

The knives bed together well and slide across each other very easily. I also got one of the little tiny cheapies, and tried just out of curiosity the low tech fix for the knives that (as I did remember) don't slide that well - in my case, the oil I had nearby was neatsfoot. That actually worked pretty well, and that little gauge seems tolerable with it, rather than lapping blades, etc.

But it's not remotely in a class with the matsui. I've never used a kinshiro so I can't compare, and the matsui isn't cheap (it's probably about $120 right now) but it's super super nice.

[Tony Shea]

Thanks David for the report back on this marking gauge. Is there a chance you can take a picture of this marking gauge? I am seriously contemplating ordering one up while the Yen is low in value. I have always wanted a good quality japanese marking gauge but the good ones are always so damn expensive. But for $123 I think this would be well worth it.

[David Weaver]

I couldn't justify trying to make one this nice for $123, unless I somehow came across the blades from an old vintage one and the gauge was beat. The lock of the two blades is a nice thing, though. I cut most of my mortises with the same chisel. Now that I have two of these ( and a third cheapie) I can probably set two of them for 95 percent of the mortises I'll ever make, and they do mark much more cleanly and easily than a pin gauge (which is what I've been using until now). A fixed pin gauge like warren described dedicated to a chisel would probably be better than the rosewood adjustable type that I use.

I'll get a picture of it tonight. This one just has the feel of something (the steel) like a precise rule. I think matsui makes a whole bunch of measuring tools, and this feels part hand tools and part starrett the way everything on the steel parts is smooth and precise. Hard to explain.

[Mike Holbrook]

David,
Sounds like you like the new mortise gauge from Stu. I have been waiting to hear what you thought of yours before ordering one. I am guessing this is one of those items Stu orders, which will translate into it taking a while for him to get one and ship it?

[David Weaver]

Yes, takes a while. Figure it takes him a few weeks to get it and then you a few weeks to get it.

Comes in a nifty box, too. Rare that I gush over a piece of equipment, and rare now that I get something over $100 and don't get cross because I've gotten so much into making my own stuff, but I think I might be able to make use of a $120 CBN wheel and this gauge for $120 - it's a luxury item, for sure, but one where I can't argue much with the value being in the item and not in prestige without showing up in the item.

[Reinis Kanders]

It is nice. Mine had an annoying sticker on it, right on the fence. I can't stand those stickers and their residue on tools. This one did not even have a barcode so it was completely useless.
Otherwise it is a nice gauge, but sticker did dampen my spirits a bit:( I have been exploring different marking gauges. I still like the Veritas double wheel the most I think, but that was my first gauge.

[David Weaver]

I like the wheel gauges for dovetails, they're tidy. I get in a hurry on "cheap" M&T and want a deeper mark than they make, though. I have the single veritas, and it might sound stupid to say it after ordering an expensive gauge, but I'm too cheap to buy the titemark. The veritas gauge works well, and if it ever doesn't, I'll be able to modify the offending component and make it.

[Dave Beauchesne]

It is nice. Mine had an annoying sticker on it, right on the fence. I can't stand those stickers and their residue on tools. This one did not even have a barcode so it was completely useless.
Otherwise it is a nice gauge, but sticker did dampen my spirits a bit:( I have been exploring different marking gauges. I still like the Veritas double wheel the most I think, but that was my first gauge.

WD-40 works on stickers a lot of the time - YMMV

Dave B

[Mike Holbrook]

I have been working on my Les Outils Cullen Tools Mortise gauge on and off for several days. I though a little work on the soft brass bar that holds the movable pin would get it so the fence would lock up correctly. I have removed all the sizable striations that were in the surface of the metal. I thought once that was done the marking arm would lock up within the fence but so far I am having the same problem. It looks like the brass bar prevents the composite wood arm from sinking down into the groove in the fence far enough. Although I am getting the sliding bar close to flush with the wood arm in spots, I suspect it will take a good deal more work to get the entire length of the bar even with or below the arms's surface. The fact that the pin and small adjusting knob are permanently attached to the bar complicates the work.

The other problem with this particular gauge is the pins are not removable. The pins are not very large either, tapering down to a fine point. I would like to flatten the pins like Warren does but I don't think there is enough metal there to work with. I suspect that I will need to drill the pins out and replace them with larger pins if I want to use the gauge for long.

[David Weaver]

301508301509

301510

First picture is the matsui box with the cheapie on it. The second is the inaoka gauge that I got off of ebay for about $20, and the third is the matsui in its box. Not an expensive box, but one that is nice and tidy and fits the gauge.

[David Weaver]

301512301513

301511


What the pictures don't do a good job of conveying is just how smoothly the adjustments work. I recall that the beams are stainless and the blades super blue, but I don't see a transition (not that it matters much, if they're hardened steel, they'll be fine).

Actually, with the beams oiled on the cheapie ryuma, it works surprisingly well. I don't know why I didn't think about that with the one that I threw out. I had visions of lapping and all of that kind of stuff to try to clean it up and just threw it away .... probably a little bit of oil would've fixed it up.

I'm kind of getting out of the extravagant and even moderately extravagant tool stuff, but even so, I am not sorry I spent the money on this one.

[Pinwu Xu]

Seems that only the Ryuma gauges are available now. :(

Is this the site you are talking about http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=356_357 ?

[David Weaver]

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=356_599_609&products_id=2036

It's buried in the precision marking gauges section.