Tormek/Jet sharpening

[David Ragan]

Hi,

I have had a T-2000 for some time. Now, I mostly use the leather wheel to strop chisels.

I use the included stone to change the grit of the wheel-the standard wheel....Does this really work, and what about the other grit wheel(s)?

Is there really an advantage to hollow grinding?

Seems like the process may eat away alot of iron when I sharpen.

Am I getting the full potential from this set up?

Thank you, David

[David Weaver]

Hi,

I have had a T-2000 for some time. Now, I mostly use the leather wheel to strop chisels.

I use the included stone to change the grit of the wheel-the standard wheel....Does this really work, and what about the other grit wheel(s)?

The standard wheel is fine, but the grading stone can't fully refresh it. I'd use the diamond truing tool from time to time to refresh it. I liked the black wheel less than the standard wheel. It's harder to see how worn it is and silicon carbide breaks down too quickly, and the grading stone and it are basically the same material so it doesn't grade well.


Is there really an advantage to hollow grinding?

Speed of honing.


Seems like the process may eat away alot of iron when I sharpen.

Don't remove all of the original edge or stop just as you get to it when you're using the tormek. There's never a need with any sharpening to remove more than the wear you made (plus a little) before you needed to sharpen. All of the sharpening methods should only be as aggressive in excess removal as the finish stone they use.


Am I getting the full potential from this set up?

No, you need to keep the wheel fresh to use it as a grinder. the leather strop itself is too slow to be that useful.

[Dave Beauchesne]

David:

If you only hollow grind to the point of leaving a small flat. say 1/32'' ( of the original polished bevel ) on the leading edge of the bevel and the trailing edge of the bevel, THEN, go thru the grits to get your finished edge, you don't use up any more iron than using a non-hollow grind approach.

The trick is not taking the hollow grind ' past ' maintaining the two aforementioned flats.

Hope that makes sense.

I use a 6'' wheel on a hand crank grinder, and am amazed how fast even touch ups on an 8000 grit stone negates the hollow grind.

YMMV - good luck

Dave B

[David Ragan]

Is the black carbide wheel the additional one that I can get from Tormek? And, it is not really worth the $ ?

That is a great idea to just grind the very tip of the edge-how do you all set that up? Eyeballing and a magic marker?

[David Weaver]

Is the black carbide wheel the additional one that I can get from Tormek? And, it is not really worth the $ ?

That is a great idea to just grind the very tip of the edge-how do you all set that up? Eyeballing and a magic marker?

Yes, IIRC, there is at least an offering of the black silicon carbide wheel and there was a 4000 grit japanese whetstone wheel when I got mine (and maybe another japanese wheel).

The only one that makes sense to me is the original aluminum oxide wheel. Maybe people with turning tools would want the silicon carbide wheel, but I didn't like it. I still have it, it broke in half when I tried to take it off of my tormek because I had the old arbor that was chrome plated. The plating came off and the wheel rusted to the arbor and there is no winning proposition once that happens if the rusting fast is really significant. Cash in the trash!!

My suggestion if you haven't replaced the arbor with stainless is to stick with the standard wheel. It's better for carving tools and chisels and plane blades in my opinion.

As far as grinding a hollow but not grinding a whole bunch more, that's just a matter of experience. I grind right to the edge with a dry grinder, and no more, but IIRC when I had a tormek, I removed the edge entirely (the tormek doesn't grind fast enough to do the hypothetical "wasting off of the iron")

[Derek Cohen]

Is the black carbide wheel the additional one that I can get from Tormek? And, it is not really worth the $ ?

That is a great idea to just grind the very tip of the edge-how do you all set that up? Eyeballing and a magic marker?

Hi David

The Tormek 2000 is a grinder first and foremost. I know that it is touted as a sharpening centre, and it will work that way, but it is not really a good enough sharpening centre. It is, however, an excellent grinder.

The Tormek has two assets. the first is the obvious one, that is, it grinds cool and the steel is not in any danger of losing its hardness. You can safely grind to the edge of the blade. The second is that is is very precise. Using the angle setter one can repeat the hollow grinder each time.

You remove very little steel when you repeat the hollow. Essentially you are removing steel from inside the hollow, not from the end of the blade. If you grind until you can just feel a wire edge, the amount of steel removed is about the same as if you refreshed a secondary bevel on a flat primary bevel.

The relative slowness of grinding on a Tormek is more than made up by the speed it facilitates when honing. The hollow it creates is straight and smooth, which means less steel to remove when straightening it. And because you have ground to the edge, there is minimal steel to remove to create a micro bevel.

Stay will the original wheel. I have used it successfully on just about every type of steel: vintage carbon, O1, A2, HSS (M2), D2, PM-Vll, M4 ...

Keep it at the lowest grit, which is 220. There is no value in using it at a regraded 1000. It takes less to hone on a 1000 grit waterstone (.. just 2 strokes).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Derek, the Tormek man, beat me to an answer but I will leave my comments too incase some of it helps...

I have the same Tormek and have had more than my share of problems grinding on it. I have made several posts concerning the use of this grinding devise over the years and may have a few additional pointers. You don't mention specifically what you are attempting to sharpen and Tormek makes different tool holders to sharpen different tools. Assuming you want to sharpen plane irons and chisels like many other posters you may want the jig (Tormek Square Edge Jig) that holds those tools flat against the grinding stone. If you have an older Tormek and bought the original jig for holding those tools you should know that the original jig was notorious for not holding the tools square. The newer/current version of this devise is much improved.

I am not sure the reason many people hollow grind tools is clear above so I will attempt to explain why I think it is popular. Many people grind the bevel of their tool with the wheel and then do their subsequent touch up sharpening on regular stones of some sort, frequently by hand. The hollow grind creates a flat area at the top and bottom of the blade, as David mentions. It is easier to feel those two fine lines registering against a stones surface than it is to try to register the entire blades surface on the stone. Typically, trying to register the entire blade against the stone creates a convex instead of concave surface. The convex surface tends to rock back and forth often removing steel without sharpening, sort of the opposite of what the OP was expecting. Advocates of hollow grinding feel that they can restore a hollow ground blade by hand with minimal strokes over a stone, being successful because of the greater tactile feedback. The work requires less time on the stone because a much smaller area is being abraded.

The main issues I hear of in regard to the Tormek is the stone abrades metal slower than a high grit dry stone and the wheel tends to wet the user and work area down as well as the blade being worked. On the positive side the larger Tormek stone makes a shallower hollow that can be ground almost flat, removing less steel. The wet stone want burn the steel, although dry stones have improved and some feel they are safe in the hands of experienced users. All the information I have found indicates that the "other" Tormek stones are slower and harder to maintain than the original. Everyone seems to agree that the newer diamond stone flattening device is needed to keep the stone flat. The stone provided with the Tormek may work for roughing the stone but not for flattening.

[David Weaver]

If I had the choice, because I didn't like the standard wheel (and this is just a side comment) and I was going to spend two hundred bucks on a silicon carbide wheel, I'd literally rethink it and get an import dry grinder and a pink surface grinder wheel for it.

The surface grinder wheels are *tops* if you can find them inexpensively, and they don't make an iron any hotter in a maintenance grind than what you can literally put in your palm as you walk back to your stones. You can even do heavy grinding with them (reshaping bevels, resquaring irons) with a little bit of skill and without having water, and *still* place the iron in your palm when you're done.

The tormek wheel is great right after it's been hit with a truing tool (not the grader), because it cuts fast, but it doesn't cut that fast for long. Using the truing tool takes a while and you have to keep water to it. But for that instant of a fresh wheel, it's nice. After that, it's not remotely close to as fast as a pink wheeled dry grinder (which will allow you to refresh a multiple honed hollow in less than a minute).

I sent mine (tormek) to george with the original wheel. I was so frustrated with it by the time I got the black wheel off of it and it (the black wheel) broke, that I was glad to just send it away.

There are all manners of things you can do with a dry grinder that I wouldn't do with a tormek (lawn mower blades, initial shaping of irons for shop made tools or knives, etc) and the replacement wheels are inexpensive, especially if you wait until you find a deal. The only advantage that I can think of with the tormek (because the heat issue disappears with the right wheel and even minimal experience) is that if you are in an area that is ultra sensitive to grit, the tormek contains it. Any of the accessories that come with a tormek, like the knife and scissors sharpener, etc, are things that are better done honing by hand, anyway (far better to maintain a quality knife by hand than grind the edge of it, and faster to do it by hand, too).

I just face my dry grinder into a corner and all of the grit pretty much goes to the floor. I have literally never had any grit on anything that I can recall (the grinder is about 6 feet from the back end of my bench). You *can*, though, put the tormek very close to your bench, and I wouldn't want to do that with a dry grinder.

[David Ragan]

Well, Mike, I am in Cumming up the road from you! :)

I really appreciate all the input.

It does make sense that the hollow grind enables one a better feel for finishing with a hand method.

I have more jigs than I can use for the Tormek. I bought it around 2006, give or take. The "square edge jig" they have on ther website looks like what I have. And still, I can fiddle around with that thing for a while trying to get it all straight.

I have not done my Dewalt 735 planer blades (or jointer blades) cause I am not at all confident of them all coming out uniformly so that all the blades do their share of the cutting. (As far as that goes, the guy that does the sharpening charges like $2-3 per inch, and it is just cheaper to buy new blades for the Dewalt planer.)

The truing stone is really nice. How long should a wheel last? I am reluctant to use the diamond truer cause of it just grinds the wheel away (obviously)-but, like David said-or implied-once you start using, it starts getting out of round.

What exactly is the dry grinder pink wheel? They run cool, right? I can mount on my Harbour Freight high RPM bench grinder and not worry about temperature?

[David Weaver]

Pink wheels in something like H hardness are, if I understand correctly, wheels that are designed for a surface grinder. They are out there cheap in spades in 7", but harder to find cheap in 6" (you can get them any time for about $50, but that's expensive to me).

If you want to sharpen planer blades, make a slotted holder for them and just touch up the edges freehand, doing as little as possible to restore the edge (which helps preserve their even-ness). you can resharpen them several times that way.

I guarantee if you put a small very even bevel on a planer blade and then remove the wire edge, you'll have a very even cutting planer blade when you put it back in - so long as the bevel is barely steeper than the primary grind. IF it looks even, you literally will be within a thousandth or two of dead straight.

As far as the diamond truing tool goes, use it lightly on a light pass and do it every time you feel like the stone is getting a little too slow to grind. The wheel will still last a long time of regular hobbyist grinding. Tormek's wheel is more durable than any of the other wheels I had, which is one of the reasons it can be graded - because it doesn't just continuously release particles at the first sign of use.

[Derek Cohen]

As mentioned above, I mainly grind on a Tormek. It is only used for plane blades and bench chisels, and I sharpen lathe chisels on a 8" half-speed grinder. The latter is set up with the Tormek BGM-100 tool rest, which allows switching between Tormek and dry grinder ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/GrindingNirvana_html_85f29ea.jpg

David mentions a pink wheel for his dry grinder. I have come to dislike the Norton 3X wheel on mine for the mess it makes, and I was considering replacing it with a pink wheel. The 3X fills the air with grit and this is a health hazard. It is over a year since it was last used. The white Norton 46 grit wheel is the only one used now, and it is nearly as bad with the dust it creates.

Now I am waiting delivery of a 1 1/2" wide 180 grit CBN wheel for the 8" grinder ..

http://www.d-waytools.com/tools-diamond-grinding-wheels.html

Something like this (on the left) ...

http://www.d-waytools.com/images/tools-diamond-wheels/GrinderOxide-Lg.jpg

Promises to be exceptional ... and should be at the price (ouch)!

- no dust!
- fast and cool grinding
- no wear to the wheel and settings never change
- no dust ... did I mention that? :D
- better visibility as the guards are no longer required (steel wheels)
- balanced for minimal vibration

The great thing is that they work as well on plane and bench chisel blades.

The bonded diamond wheels were going to be the business. However it became apparent that diamond wears rapidly when grinding carbon as it is carbon itself. Very expensive wheels that promised a lot and returned little.

Boron nitride, on the other hand, does not have this weakness. It is nearly as hard as diamond and unaffected by carbon steel. While it is intended for HSS, it works just as well for high carbon steels - indeed any steel as long as it is hardened. I have read reviews and reports of its use over several years (it has been around quite a while but only used in home operations in recent years), and all have been highly complimentary. This is not a speculative material. I would not have laid out $220 if it was unproven.

Will it grind any better than a Norton white or pink wheel? That depends on the perspective one has. The very best grinder, in my opinion, is a Tormek. Its downside is that it is slow. Still, it does the job and creates an even hollow that is easy to freehand on. I have no doubt that.someone else would be equally satisfied with a cheap 6" grinder wheel. The Tormek makes it simpler, and the 6" requires more skill. Do I think I will get my monies worth out of a CBN wheel? Yes, if this means that the result is as clean a grind as the Tormek, that it has completed the task without heat buildup (the CBN runs as cool as the Tormek), and there is also no dust in the air, which is what I have read. We'll see, and I will report back later.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Derek, the CBN wheel is a good point. I'd prefer as a user not to have a setup like the tormek setup on my grinder as it would add time to the grinding process, but that's just personal preference.

The pink wheel releases grit, too, but maybe not quite as fast as the 3x? I don't know, though. It does release some. For someone who wants no grit flying around at all, the CBN is a good choice. I've never seen a single bad comment about them other than that they're expensive (but so, too, is making anything precisely milled and covering it with expensive CBN).

[David Ragan]

Those pink and CBN wheels nice, but are pretty pricey.

I will find a way to make out with what I have, I guess.

So-I need have no fear to touch up my jointer/planer blades with the little handle held stone mounted in a 3-4" wooden handle (I got from Woodcraft probably)? You are saying put just a little steeper bevel on what's already there, and more like dress it than grind away, right? Of course, be very methodical, and do the exact same with all three blades, right?

[Dave Beauchesne]

[QUOTE=David Ragan;2324229

That is a great idea to just grind the very tip of the edge-how do you all set that up? Eyeballing and a magic marker?[/QUOTE]

Exactly - get the tool rest set, black marker the bevel ( all over ) and turn the wheel a couple rpm, touch, observe and adjust till the wheel hits the centre of the bevel ( between the leading and following points ) crank the wheel over by hand or other and move back and forth with very light pressure, checking often to see where more or less attention is required.
I have been doing it this way for a while - it still looks uneven at times, but totally functional. Some people are better at it than others - if fact, a woman with little to no mechanical experience was at a WW School I attended for a week long class - she would make the hollow grind look like it was done on a machine - without much effort. BYW, she could cut flawless dovetails in Swiss Pear ( jewelery box ) that were flawless - not an easy task.

Don't get frustrated - If I can do it, anyone can do it!

Dave B

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have not done my Dewalt 735 planer blades (or jointer blades) cause I am not at all confident of them all coming out uniformly so that all the blades do their share of the cutting. (As far as that goes, the guy that does the sharpening charges like $2-3 per inch, and it is just cheaper to buy new blades for the Dewalt planer.)

I have not tried my planer blades on the Tormek either.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?191912-Carbide-Tipped-Planer-Knife-Set-for-DeWalt-DW735

I think that you come out ahead using carbide blades. The link above also shows a jig used to sharpen the blades.

I am very happy with these: http://www.holbren.com/planer-knife-set-for-dewalt-dw735-carbide-tipped.html

Many have commented on these: http://www.infinitytools.com/Carbide-Tipped-Knives-For-DeWalt-735-Planer-3-Pc/productinfo/CPJK-041/

I have no idea how these two differ, but there is a price difference between them of almost $100.



The truing stone is really nice. How long should a wheel last? I am reluctant to use the diamond truer cause of it just grinds the wheel away (obviously)-but, like David said-or implied-once you start using, it starts getting out of round.

The amount that you remove is directly related to how far down you set the diamond. It does not take that long to do it, so, I start with a light cut, and, if that was not sufficient, i can always lower it a bit. Off hand, I would say that you true it when it needs to be done, and, if it needs to be done and you do not, then you will not likely sharpen correctly.

I use the Tormek to create the hollow grind, and then I free hand on water stones. The end result is that I do not need to true that often, and, the wheel seems to be lasting a long time. I think that I have a larger wheel than you have, but, I have been using my wheel for years and I do not have an appreciable difference in size.

[Tom M King]

Derek, I have that D-way CBN wheel, except the radiused edge one, and love it. Fast, cool, and always ready with no fettling. I haven't felt the need for the coarser wheel, and it's so smooth, I don't want to put anything on the right side that will add vibration. The picture to the right is with it running, and I left it running like that to go to the truck to get the camera.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tom

That is reassuring to hear. I have the same radiused wheel as yours coming. Should arrive this week.

Do you see much spark when grinding? It must be quite eerie with no vibration, no apparent movement of the wheel, and little to see from the wheels' action on the steel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom M King]

I don't remember seeing any sparks. Certainly nothing like a regular dry grinder. The interesting thing is that I've started using water-just a little bit in a syringe. I used it to regrind the edge of a plastering trowel that had gotten ragged edged. I thought that I'd better cool it since it was so thin. Dry, it throws lots of tiny chips of metal. With the water, it all accumulates in a glob, and rolls down the back of the piece being ground, actually making less mess overall. I use the water almost all the time just for easy cleanup.

You can watch the wire edge being formed to judge how much to grind.

[Mike Holbrook]

David, so we are neighbors practically. I live in the new town of Milton, near Crabapple, use to be Alpharetta. I work at a home business that is open 7 days a week so I am usually around. I worried about wearing the Tormek wheel down at first too David, but after years of use I still have most of the stone. I think you would have to wear out quite a few diamond flattening devices to seriously reduce ones size. In this regard the slow stone is nice to have.

I like the idea of the CBN wheel guys. I have had some serious issues with skin & respiratory system allergic reactions in the last two years and do not care to put metal and stone dust in/on the air, tools & shop. It sounds like the CBN wheel is better about that. I am particularly interested in using it with water as Tom mentions above. If I can keep the resulting refuse in water vs the air and everything else I would be a happy camper. Maybe Tom or someone could expand on using this wheel with water? I am not exactly sure how this would be done? Squirt or spray the wheel/tool with water while using it?

[Derek Cohen]

It sounds like the CBN wheel is better about that. I am particularly interested in using it with water as Tom mentions above.

Mike

As far as I am aware, there is no need to use water as there is no dust created, and there is minimal heat generated. If you really do want to add water to the mix, and have a Tormek, there is a CBN wheel you can get for the Tormek.

This one is based in Australia, and included just for reference: http://www.cwsonline.com.au/shop/item/woodcut-cbn-wheel-250mm-x-40mm-x-180g

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Ragan]

Several years ago I had a reaction to some Brazilian Walnut (that's what Lumber Liquidators called it-but who knows?), was putting together a benchtop, which did turn out really beautiful. While drilling holes in it and cutting plugs I would inhale the smoke. Almost immediately started feeling bad.

When I have used the Tormek, I always try to grind across the face evenly, and especially with the diamond truer, take off as little as possible.

Another Question..........How small can you let the wheel get?

Those CBN wheels look really nice. However, they are a little pricey.

[Tom M King]

It cuts so fast, that little is thrown in the air, and certainly no dust from a friable grinding wheel. It does throw metal shavings though, and since ours is just drug out on a job site, my discovery of the use of a little water is just to keep all the metal chips consolidated. I just use an epoxy syringe (maybe an ounce if full) and dribble a little stream right on the edge of the piece being ground. There is no cleanup the way I do it other than with a piece of paper towel. If you have a place in your shop where it will be left and there is no worry about tiny bits of metal, it wouldn't matter. For a chisel, typically you're looking at a 4 second pass, look at the edge, and then maybe a couple of seconds more. I don't think there is anything that would be breathed in.

I really like the LV grinding rest too. It's unbelievably stable for something so adjustable. The Batty gauge makes changing the grinding angle to exactly the angle you want a short job along with the LV stand.

We often have people standing around watching us work. I don't mind anyone watching me grind something with this setup. I'd never drag out a water grinder while getting paid with people watching.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Hi Tom

That is reassuring to hear. I have the same radiused wheel as yours coming. Should arrive this week.

Do you see much spark when grinding? It must be quite eerie with no vibration, no apparent movement of the wheel, and little to see from the wheels' action on the steel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek:

FWIW, I was just at a meeting of our WW Guild last evening and the presenter was Ed Pretty, a turner of exceptional skill here in the Pacific Northwest.

He brought his 80 / 180 grit CBN setup and, as a 7 day a week turner, uses it constantly and is as happy as can be with it. He has 3 - 4 chunks of magnet stuck to the body of the motor to catch some of the metal swarf that comes off the wheels and says they pick up a lot of material ( metal only ). The only thing that he mentioned as a negative, is due to the mass of the wheels, he gives the grinder a spin to help it start up easier; it complains a bit when he just hits the switch.

The CBN wheels got me interested, but not at this point.

Dave B

[Mike Holbrook]

Wow thanks for that link Derek, the CBN wheels were discussed on another thread and I thought I read that they were not available for the Tormek. That just might solve quite a few issues for me. Although for the price of the Tormek wheel I could probably buy a grinder and smaller wheel. Is that the wheel you ordered Derek or did you order a wheel for your bench grinder? I gave my old Delta bench grinder away when I got my Tormek. Yes, I jumped the gun on that decision, but I wasn't fond of the Delta and would buy something a little better if I go the bench grinder route.

Metals are a frequent contributor to allergic reactions so I am particularly concerned about metal dust/particles both for my skin and lungs & respiratory system. My experience has been that once allergic reactions get cranked up a variety of normally safe substances can become very irritating.