Knowing what you know now about Lasers...

[Bob WrightNC]

What laser would you select if you were a new and needed some help/tech support along the way. I'm looking at doing glass, acrylic, rubber stamps, etc. for a gift business and really curious about your thoughts with so much experience in the forum. A combination of tech support, quality of product, and cost effectiveness. Your top 3 would be appreciated with any candid thoughts you'd like to share. Thanks. Thinking at least 60W with rotary.

[David Somers]

Bob,

Tough question given your info. Do you have a budget that is limiting you? Dimensional size requirements? Throughput requirements? (by that I mean do you need to rip the work out or can you tootle along) If production speed is your goal are you going to be engraving mostly or cutting? You already told us what you are thinking of for power.

For myself. If my sweetie had bought the winning lottery ticket like I asked her to do I would have been tickled with a Trotec, and right after that ULS and Epilog. They all have excellent tech support and the machines are excellent. And we have a ton of very knowledgeable folks on the forum who can help you as well.

Assuming my sweetie did buy a lottery ticket but didn't hit the top jackpot I would next choose something like a Rabbit. Ray Scott supports his users very well and is a US based supplier of these Chinese made machines, with the parts and expertise to support you.

But, since my sweetie did not buy that winning ticket (yet?) I ordered direct from China. When it arrives I will regale everyone with the tales of the purchase and its use. But for now I am simply in the "fingers are crossed" phase of the purchase.

Seriously though, if you could take some time to answer some of the questions I posed above that would help folks answer you better.

Dave

[Ross Moshinsky]

I'll say this, I've demo'd Epilog, ULS, and Trotec the past month+ and I don't feel any closer to making a decision. All have positives and negatives. I may or may not write something up when we decide, probably won't.

The reality is, you can't go wrong with any of the machines from what I can tell.

[Bob WrightNC]

Thanks David and Ross. Ross, I'm going to do the same and then I think it will come down to customer service reputation with the local distributors. I need what we used to call a "sustaining resource", or someone who brings value to the sale that transcends the value of the machine alone. Someone who can be a resource and guide you on the "how to's" after you've made the purchase. Any other thoughts?

[Scott Shepherd]

I think it will come down to customer service reputation with the local distributors. I need what we used to call a "sustaining resource", or someone who brings value to the sale that transcends the value of the machine alone. Someone who can be a resource and guide you on the "how to's" after you've made the purchase. Any other thoughts?

Good luck with that, especially in the area you are located in. The reality is once they sell you a machine, you are going to be directed to the tech support line at each one's facility. You're not going to call your sales rep and get an answer when your machine is doing something odd or you can't figure it out. They might take a call or two out of kindness, but after that, they will refer you to tech support every time. I've said it in a number of posts on here before. The rep's play a VERY small role in anything, other than getting your check. There are a few exceptions, like Roy Brewer, but in your area, you aren't going to get anything spectacular. Buy the machine that does what you want it to do and don't worry about any "special relationships" where someone "might" be able to help you. Most all reps are traveling daily, so if you have an issue, you'll likely get voicemail. In the end, you could call tech support and get the answer and be back running.

In the beginning, I put a lot of weight on the sales rep. 8 years later, I couldn't care less who's selling me what. Just tell me the price, what the warranty is, what the tech support hours and policy are, and we're set.

[David Somers]

Where are you located Bob?

I am in Seattle if you are nearby. The Epilog sales person here was terrific and folks I have spoken with have really appreciated him after the sales.
Folks were neutral about the ULS sales person.
I didnt pursue Trotec at all since they were quite far from me and of the 3 machines priced far beyond what was already not doable for me.

Not sure how to advise you other than to call nearby folks with machines and see what they think. A sales person should be able to give you the names of people with their machines. Or you could post something here and give a shout to users in your area for feedback. If I read the forum right, support from the sales offices after the sale is hit or miss. Some are terrific, some won't acknowledge your existence after the product is delivered.

[Scott Shepherd]

Dave, I think he's in NC based on his name "Bob WrightNC", but I could be wrong. If so, then I'm in his territory, which is why I said what I said.

Think of it like a car. You buy a car from the sales person. If your wipers quit working, you don't take the car back to the sales person. If you did, he'd tell you to take it to the service department. He might smile, pour you a cup of coffee while you wait, but in the end, he's meaningless in the transaction after the sale.

There are a handful of exceptions out there, but if Bob is in NC, then he's not in one of those areas, in my opinion.

[Martin Boekers]

Most help comes via phone calls to the manufacturer, reps are a hit and miss. Phone support for the top three are good.

If you decide on a Chinese laser do some searching on forums and find a brand that many are using, some forum, even
here have a support thread just for certain brands.

[John Bion]

I'm looking at doing glass, acrylic, rubber stamps, etc. for a gift business ........Thanks. Thinking at least 60W with rotary.

Get a western made machine in that case, Chinese machines are great for cutting and ok at some other things, from the very limited detail you give - get a Trotec or similar.
Regards, John

[Bob WrightNC]

Scott, you got it, I'm in NC. If you know the area, then you know the Epilog guys and I've visited some with them but I think you've hit the nail on the head. Price, then tech support. We bought a large embroidery machine and exactly like you said Scott. We were completely on our own. Self taught after some very simple training from the company. Problem is, I don't have the time to devote to the trial and error of learning on your own and that's the rub. I need to get it going and for someone to shoot straight.

[Bob WrightNC]

Thanks John, that's where it appears to be heading. The issue is I see alot of folks that have machines that don't run and I think we know many things we'll do with it but not everything just yet. And it needs to run, that's for sure.

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott, you got it, I'm in NC. If you know the area, then you know the Epilog guys and I've visited some with them but I think you've hit the nail on the head. Price, then tech support. We bought a large embroidery machine and exactly like you said Scott. We were completely on our own. Self taught after some very simple training from the company. Problem is, I don't have the time to devote to the trial and error of learning on your own and that's the rub. I need to get it going and for someone to shoot straight.

Bob, you're in the place where you'll get more help for free, 24 hours a day, than most any tech support, or sales rep will ever do. Pick the one that fits your budget and needs, come back here, ask for help and you'll be light years ahead of anything you'd get from most sales reps. I say that honestly. You won't beat the knowledge and help that's on this forum.

Pick a machine I can help you with and buy me dinner at K&W and I'll come help you get it going ;)

[Ross Moshinsky]

After demoing machines, I find the sales reps more of a hindrance then a help on technical side of things. If you can get a factory rep to do the demo, it is beneficial but they are not production guys. They are definitely more aware of the various settings in the machines. The sales reps, really are limited from what I've encountered.

Here is how I rank things at the moment:

Software - ULS, Trotec, Epilog, Rayjet
**None of the reps I've come across are talking about Epilog's new software**

Machines - Trotec, Rayjet, ULS = Epilog

Price - Rayjet, Trotec = ULS = Epilog

Overall - Still haven't decided.

Here is an example of why you need to demo machines or at least read the user manual. I engrave crystal awards using the center point as a guideline. The ULS and Trotec do things similarly. Import your artwork, move the head over, the artwork will snap to that point. The Epilog (print driver) you enter it as a center/center engraving, bring the head to the point, set it as the home, and it moves the head accordingly. The Rayjet software doesn't offer either. So now a feature I consider essential isn't available on a machine that on paper, looked the best value buy on the market.

[Keith Outten]

Bob,

If you decide to purchase a Trotec your in Don Mayhew's territory. Don is a great guy who knows the Trotec machines well. He spent two whole days with us when he delivered our machine and helped us tune the speed and power settings for every material type we were using at the time. I have to admit i have called Don on a couple occasions, he answered his phone and helped me with problems so he's not your average sales rep.
If you need his phone number let me know.
.

[Paul Phillips]

Here is how I rank things at the moment:

Software - ULS, Trotec, Epilog, Rayjet
**None of the reps I've come across are talking about Epilog's new software**

Machines - Trotec, Rayjet, ULS = Epilog

Price - Rayjet, Trotec = ULS = Epilog

Overall - Still haven't decided.

Here is an example of why you need to demo machines or at least read the user manual. I engrave crystal awards using the center point as a guideline. The ULS and Trotec do things similarly. Import your artwork, move the head over, the artwork will snap to that point. The Epilog (print driver) you enter it as a center/center engraving, bring the head to the point, set it as the home, and it moves the head accordingly. The Rayjet software doesn't offer either. So now a feature I consider essential isn't available on a machine that on paper, looked the best value buy on the market.

Ross, I'm sure you know that the Rayjet is built by Trotec as their entry level laser and as such has some stripped down features, have you also looked at the entry level ULS Versalaser or the Epilog Zing? Also, GCC LaserPro have some good machines, I don't know what their entry level machines are like though, maybe someone with a C180 or Venus II can chime in with their thoughts. Just a thought, but I wonder if the Rayjet software can be upgraded to the features you want, for the extra cost of course.

[Dave Sheldrake]

One thing I am sure of, it's a hard choice and no matter what you do you will make the wrong decision when a job comes up that needs , more power / more speed / a bigger bed / better purchase price / better support /

It's a case of narrowing down what you want to do, what you plan on doing Vs what you want to spend / what you need to spend :)

The second job you get in will be too big for your chosen bed size, the third job will run slowly because you could do with another 100 watts or so etc etc

Engraving on organics, get either one of the three Western mades or an RF Galvo from China (depending on size of the individual parts)

Cutting on organics, go for a Chinese machine with an uber tube from one of the better manufacturers like HX or Weike

Cutting metals, get a US supplied oxygen assisted machine (either Chinese made or western) (DON'T buy a Chinese metal cutter that uses oxygen as an import, they are close to bombs!)

No one machine does everything, even the true industrial monsters have limitations on what they can do even at the $2,500,000+ price point.

From what you have mentioned though I'd go with a Trotech or other western made machine like an Epilog. Having had 4 I'm not a huge fan of the ULS machines :(

cheers

Dave

[Bob WrightNC]

Thanks for all the great answers! Scott, thanks for the offer. Honestly, I'm a member of a few forums and this one is the top for help, hands down. Keith, if you have a number for Don Mayhew, I'd love to have it, thanks. Thanks to all, now to demo some machines.

[Scott Shepherd]

Don doesn't handle NC any longer, I don't think. There's a rep named Tracy Tome in Wake Forest, NC that handles that area now. He's a very nice guy and I'm sure he'd be happy to demo anything for you.

Dave, what model ULS did you have last, that you didn't like? I love our Universal. I think it's a great machine. Just not the fastest thing on the planet, but I think their driver is outstanding.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Ross, I'm sure you know that the Rayjet is built by Trotec as their entry level laser and as such has some stripped down features, have you also looked at the entry level ULS Versalaser or the Epilog Zing? Also, GCC LaserPro have some good machines, I don't know what their entry level machines are like though, maybe someone with a C180 or Venus II can chime in with their thoughts. Just a thought, but I wonder if the Rayjet software can be upgraded to the features you want, for the extra cost of course.

I wouldn't call the Rayjet 300 anymore of an entry level machine than I would the Epilog Helix. The Rayjet is actually a bigger and better built machine, which is why I rated it second in quality.

The issue I have is their driver lacks just a couple of options. All the other machines have all the options I'd consider required to running my business.

[Kev Williams]

I'm just curious-- do you already HAVE a gift business and you're looking to augment sales via laser engraving?
or
Are you already selling laser engraved items you're having done somewhere else and are ready to "move up"?
or
Are starting this business from scratch?

[Scott Shepherd]

I wouldn't call the Rayjet 300 anymore of an entry level machine than I would the Epilog Helix. The Rayjet is actually a bigger and better built machine, which is why I rated it second in quality.

The issue I have is their driver lacks just a couple of options. All the other machines have all the options I'd consider required to running my business.

My perception of the Rayjet was that it was a "Zing" "Versalaser" competitor. But somewhere along the line, Universal took their desktop, stripped down model machine, made it robust and kept the name the same, and Rayjet did the same. What I thought used to be a little bitty table top machine is now basically the same chassis as the Speedy 300, without some of the bells and whistles.

I'm not a fan of that "Commander" software either Ross. I guess if you are new to lasers and don't want to do much tweaking, it's great. It's very much push a couple buttons and engrave. It wouldn't work for us at all, but I guess for some people, it fits the bill.

I also agree, the Rayjet is competing with the Helix, not the Zing.

[Ross Moshinsky]

As I've said, I really have looked at the major three and I feel very comfortable in my rankings on page 1.

I honestly had the Rayjet at the top of my list knowing the software was basic. I was hoping for Epilog basic but it's a few features short of that even. Note when I talk about the Epilog, it's the current print driver not their new job manager. That should make it pretty even with Trotec and ULS.

[Jim Reinhard]

I would not over look GCC laser pro..I have had a mercury for 4 years and when I upgrade I will be going with GCC again.Great tec support .Jorlink is in greensboro NC.
might be worth looking into.
Machenzie is my rep there .Allways Quick to answer questions.

[Dave Sheldrake]

VLS 4.60 and 2 x 3.60's Scotty, the work I do requires brutal machines rather than refined so the ULS just always seemed a little less than it really should have been. I don't do any rotary work on the smaller machines so it may well have excelled at stuff like that.
Software wise I don't really rely on machine specific software with most of my stuff being done with Solidworks and AutoCAD , the only exception being the Mitsu with it's all in one package that has nesting functions and edge detection etc, for me the software is just a transport method to get the job into the machines memory.As most of the stuff I do is day to week+ running jobs the need for a nice interface and job management isn't high on my list.
A couple of my guys loved working on the ULS machines, I just couldn't take to them myself. They seem to make a lot of claims then fall short on delivery at that price point :(

cheers

Dave

[Robert Tepper]

Bob,

All of the above messages have tremendous merit. My sales rep has been there for me after hours and on the weekends. He even came out on a Saturday to change a bad laser tube 6 hours before he had to catch a flight to another trade show. I just feel that he is an exceptional individual that really cares about his customers.

Tech support will be your friend in many situations, be it a broken part or during your learning curve. Your sales rep has to make a living and selling machines is how they do it.

All three manufacturers mentioned have unique qualities.

I have a Rayjet 300, 80 watts of power and it has been a work horse. In 28 months, it has been down for two days and it runs 40 hours a week plus some times on the weekends. I am going to a trade show in Las Vegas this weekend to look at the Speedy 400.

Purchase the largest machine with the most power you can afford. Keep your machine clean, vacuum the table area every day. Keep the mirrors and lens clean on a daily basis. I remove the side doors of my machine every Saturday and clean with an air compressor to remove small foreign matter.

Best of luck to you in your new venture. This forum will be of tremendous value to you. The people here have great knowledge and are more than willing to share.

Robert Tepper

[Dave Sheldrake]

Purchase the largest machine with the most power you can afford. Keep your machine clean, vacuum the table area every day. Keep the mirrors and lens clean on a daily basis. I remove the side doors of my machine every Saturday and clean with an air compressor to remove small foreign matter.

excellent advice Bob, so much so it was worth repeating. Lasers are like Ladies, treat them with respect and you will have a lifetime of happiness, treat them badly and they will leave when you need them most

cheers

Dave

[Scott Shepherd]

Lasers are like Ladies, treat them with respect and you will have a lifetime of happiness, treat them badly and they will leave when you need them most

Wait.......they'll leave at dinner time? :D

[Dave Sheldrake]

trust me brother, if you can't smell smoke it's salad in our house :)

[David Somers]

Dave,

Salad shouldn't smoke?

Darn!!