Lumber Yield

[Clay Fails]

A friend has offered to let me have a cherry tree on his property and i am trying to estimate roughly how many BF of useable lumber it mught yield. I realize there are many variables, including how i have it milled. I estimate the trunk and the two main branches are about 2000BF gross, standing. Does anyone know a rule of tbumb for converting standing BF to sawn lumber?

thanks

[peter gagliardi]

www.conwaycleveland.com is your friend. I have both their log and lumber rules. A cherry with 2000 bf in it is way beyond huge!!! I have never seen one even close, and I have sawn some 30" plus trees.

[Mark Bolton]

Agreed, a Cherry tree at 2MBF would be a cherry never before seen on earth. Your average main stem logs may yield 80-100 bf per log, if you have a pristine tree you may get three. The branches are junk for boards but you could get some funky stuff or turning material out of them.

[bill tindall]

I measured one on the Ramsey cascade trail Smoky Mountain Ntl. Park that was 52" breast height and 75' to first limb. I'd post a picture if I knew how. There is a grove of cherry on a flat almost to the falls. There are many 48" trees in this grove. The biggest cherry tree I ever sawed had 1310 bdft in it. It was over 30" in diameter.

A cherry tree that only sawed 100 bdft in a 12' log would be a small tree.

[Scott T Smith]

A friend has offered to let me have a cherry tree on his property and i am trying to estimate roughly how many BF of useable lumber it mught yield. I realize there are many variables, including how i have it milled. I estimate the trunk and the two main branches are about 2000BF gross, standing. Does anyone know a rule of tbumb for converting standing BF to sawn lumber?

thanks

Clay, you don't usually mill branch wood, as the logs are full of stress and poorly suited for lumber. The only exception is from main trunks on forked trees.

If you can provide us with log diameter and lengths, either I or one of the other millers on this site can provide you with a board footage estimate.

2K board feet from a single tree usually requires a massive (not a large) tree.

[Mark Bolton]

I measured one on the Ramsey cascade trail Smoky Mountain Ntl. Park that was 52" breast height and 75' to first limb. I'd post a picture if I knew how. There is a grove of cherry on a flat almost to the falls. There are many 48" trees in this grove. The biggest cherry tree I ever sawed had 1310 bdft in it. It was over 30" in diameter.

A cherry tree that only sawed 100 bdft in a 12' log would be a small tree.

A 12' log, 16" on the small end is barely over 100' on the doyle. No idea how big the OP's tree is but cherry has a fairly substantial amount of sapwood. Of course if the but log has a 24" small end you triple that yield (more with oversawing on a band mill).

Given this was a free tree I just assumed it was an average Cherry. One would assume (of course assumptions are what they are) if it was a prize Cherry the value would more than likely sway someone against giving it away.

Will be interesting to hear the size of the main stem.

[Clay Fails]

A 12' log, 16" on the small end is barely over 100' on the doyle. No idea how big the OP's tree is but cherry has a fairly substantial amount of sapwood. Of course if the but log has a 24" small end you triple that yield (more with oversawing on a band mill).

Given this was a free tree I just assumed it was an average Cherry. One would assume (of course assumptions are what they are) if it was a prize Cherry the value would more than likely sway someone against giving it away.

Will be interesting to hear the size of the main stem.

I am having trouble uploading a ohoto, will keep trying. The trunk is 9 feet circumference at 5 feet off ground, straight for 18 to 20 feet. I had included the two main branches which are each about 15 inches diameter by 15 to 20 feet long. I am having a tree service friend price the removal for me, but dont know where to find a sawyer locally. Thanks for all input.

[Clay Fails]

I may have overestimated the standing footage, and didnt realize the limbs arent usually included. So maybe it's more average than not! Just trying to figure out if it is worth cutting up.

[Dave Zellers]

Definitely smaller than first estimate but still a beautiful straight clean trunk.

[Jim Andrew]

Look at forestryforum.com to see if there is a bandmill close by.

[Mark Bolton]

Using the conventional scale a 35" diameter chest high with a single 16' saw log would seem to scale to around 550 bd ft. X 1.25 = 687.5 feet for a 20' log.

Most all band mills will over saw (more) the log scales. Scott could tell you by how much.

Definitely a good size tree but you can see where a more average size trees don't yeild a ton.

[Clay Fails]

thanks for all for the input. Much appreciated. I need to figure out how much the felling, sawing and drying will cost relative to the number of BF to be yielded to determine if it's a Go or No Go proposition.

[Scott T Smith]

Clay, that appears to be an excellent candidate for milling. From looking at the photo I estimate will probably yield 450 - 550 board feet ( perhaps more - I would need to know the diameters and lengths of the logs to calculate something closer).

For comparison, here are some yield numbers based upon the Doyle scale (a band mill should have a higher yield):

Log dia / bd ft yield per running foot

12" / 4
16" / 9
20" / 16
24" / 25
28" / 36
32" / 49
36" / 64


A few observations. First, there are several nice forks on the tree that will yield some really pretty crotchwood. You want to log to be bucked so that the logs containing the crotchwood are long enough to be dogged on the sawmill. Minimum lengths vary per mill; best to find a local miller that is familiar with GRADE milling. Have your miller advise you regarding the best locations to buck the logs to length; - DO NOT LEAVE THIS DECISION TO THE TREE SERVICE COMPANY!

Some of the logs above the first fork should be ok to mill, as they are really a forked trunk and not a branch.

The trunk appears to be extremely clear. I would ask that it be felled as close as possible to the ground, and ask the tree service company to use a reverse notch so as to maximize the lumber in the log. (a reverse notch results in a log with a totally flat end - the notch cut is on the stump side).

Cherry is usually milled flat sawn. You want your "grade miller" to keep the pith centered in the boards (zero taper sawing) so as to yield the highest quality lumber. He will sacrifice a small amount of yield to do this, but the resulting boards will be higher quality. You will increase yield if you mill the logs in the shortest lengths that you expect to use (or leave them live edge).

I would suggest a mix of 4/4 (milled at 1-1/8" green), and 5/4 (milled at 1-3/8" green) lumber, with the wider boards being milled at 5/4. The extra 1/8" is to allow room for drying related shrinkages. Yard trees frequently grow quickly (wide growth rings), and the boards tend to move a little bit more during the drying process as compared with logs with tight growth rings from forest grown trees.

[Keith Hankins]

I'd go for it if you can get it taken down reasonable. I'd see two good base sections, and that crotch could pay for the whole thing. Looks like it could be nice, but ya never know. I helped a lumber yard and the old timer that did all the sawing, said each tree was like Christmas. Ya, never know till ya open it up. It could be all great curl, and it could be junk.

[bill tindall]

"You will increase yield if you mill the logs in the shortest lengths that you expect to use (or leave them live edge). "

While the lumber yield from the log may be a tiny amount more for this straight trunk, the yield of useful cuttings in the shop will be much poorer for 8' lumber than 12'. 12' will be easier to stack, keep straight, and minimize end trimming waste With 8' lumber one winds up with piles of short lengths left over from making stuff like tables, chests of drawers and the like that involve cuttings of 2-4'. Personally I think that 12' lumber is a good compromise between minimizing cutting waste and ease of handling and storage.

If the person running the mill is experienced the loss from edging is minimal. I would find it aggravating straightening 500 bdft of live edge lumber when it came time to use it. However, if into trendy table tops the live edge may be desirable.

However......my advice to the log owner would be to sell the log to a mill. I can't tell from a picture but you may get $1, to several dollars per bd ft for the logs. If you don't know what you are doing, a fine cherry log is a poor place to learn. Risks- lumber molds, gets worm holes, dries crooked, gets fatal drying stress if kiln dried, no means of getting it dry if not kiln dried, etc. There is a lot to know and worry about.

Advice based on running a hardwood lumber business 30+ years, owning part of a saw mill for a few years and drying and working many thousand bdft of lumber. Others results may differ. If you don't have room to store 12' lumber its advantages are irrelevant.

[Kent A Bathurst]

[QUOTE=bill tindall;2325064] 12' will be easier to stack, keep straight, and minimize end trimming waste With 8' lumber one winds up with piles of short lengths left over from making stuff like tables, chests of drawers and the like that involve cuttings of 2-4'. Personally I think that 12' lumber is a good compromise between minimizing cutting waste and ease of handling and storage.

[QUOTE]

Agreed. I don't get involved in milling logs, but I do buy QS flitches from trees. 14' is the standard I get.

Cutting short for planned part length would cause me a problem: I don't just hack the boards into pieces - I lay out my parts as the grain dictates, which often isn't "straight" down the board, and almost never starts right at the end of a board.

[Mark Bolton]

The answer to this entire thread is what is the total invested cost. If the land owner is giving the tree away trying to mill the tree in the best way possible encapsulates reasonably getting the tree on the ground and some reasonable milling. The OP never intimated that this tree was gold or that he had any intended use for the yeild.

Sawing long for the hobbiest is a bonehead decision unless he specifically has the ability to move, handle, and store, long lengths. If shorts leave some waste or leaves some material for future endeavors so be it. The tree was free.

I say unless the owner wants to jack around with the possibility of getting a few bucks out of the tree, knock it to the ground the cheapest way possible. Buck it up into whatever makes sense standing at the logs with a tape, and go on.

[Chris Padilla]

Why does he want the tree gone? I realize what we see in the photo is limited but that is a gorgeous little scene of tree and fall foliage colors!

[Mark Bolton]

Why does he want the tree gone? I realize what we see in the photo is limited but that is a gorgeous little scene of tree and fall foliage colors!

My assumption was the land owner knew the OP could make use of a nice tree. Whether it needs to come down or not who knows. Sure looks like an easy lay down and plenty of room for the mill.

[Clay Fails]

Thanks all for the input. Finding a good local sawmill will be the challenge. I will keep you all posted.

[Scott T Smith]

"You will increase yield if you mill the logs in the shortest lengths that you expect to use (or leave them live edge). "

While the lumber yield from the log may be a tiny amount more for this straight trunk, the yield of useful cuttings in the shop will be much poorer for 8' lumber than 12'. 12' will be easier to stack, keep straight, and minimize end trimming waste With 8' lumber one winds up with piles of short lengths left over from making stuff like tables, chests of drawers and the like that involve cuttings of 2-4'. Personally I think that 12' lumber is a good compromise between minimizing cutting waste and ease of handling and storage.

If the person running the mill is experienced the loss from edging is minimal. I would find it aggravating straightening 500 bdft of live edge lumber when it came time to use it. However, if into trendy table tops the live edge may be desirable.

However......my advice to the log owner would be to sell the log to a mill. I can't tell from a picture but you may get $1, to several dollars per bd ft for the logs. If you don't know what you are doing, a fine cherry log is a poor place to learn. Risks- lumber molds, gets worm holes, dries crooked, gets fatal drying stress if kiln dried, no means of getting it dry if not kiln dried, etc. There is a lot to know and worry about.

Advice based on running a hardwood lumber business 30+ years, owning part of a saw mill for a few years and drying and working many thousand bdft of lumber. Others results may differ. If you don't have room to store 12' lumber its advantages are irrelevant.

Bill, I think that we will have to agree to disagree regarding the yield from the log. I am in agreement with the rest of your comments.

Like you, I run a hardwood lumber business and am the owner of two sawmills, a dedicated slabber and two dry kilns. My comments about yield are with respect to milling yield, as opposed to shop yield (I'll leave that to others to debate).

For logs with similar end diameters, I concur with you that log length will not have much impact upon the yield. However, most logs are tapered, and most boards are consistent width, and thus the longer the log, the more waste material is produced due to taper.

Here is a cropped version of the OP's tree photo. I cropped it even with the outside of the bottom of the trunk in order to more clearly exhibit the taper in the log. It appears to me that there is an almost 20% delta between the diameter at the large end versus the diameter below the crotch. Additionally, the log has some curve to it which will also result in reduced yield if the logs are milled longer as compared with shorter.

298951

I find live edge milling beneficial when working with high value logs. For one thing, it maximizes the yield and in instances of curl the inclusion of the sapwood can enhance the character of the board. Below are some photo's that exhibit this point. In this instance, a 38" large end diameter / 32" small end diameter white oak log was quartersawn, with the slabs from the outside of the log saved due to the extraordinary character. The yield increase from live edging the boards was approximately 15%, which included some rather spectacular spalted curly sapwood.

These live edge boards exhibit extraordinary curl along the outer edges of the board; yet minimal curl towards the portion of the board that was near the center of the log. Had these been milled using a conventional "square up the cant" milling process (as well as trimming out the sapwood), over half of the curly portion would have been lost.

298950

Here is a tapered board that was produced from squaring up the can't near the butt flare of the log. Some extraordinarily figured lumber that would otherwise have gone to waste.

298949


Typically the log with the most to gain from being shorter is the butt log, as it usually has the greatest amount of taper.

I'm not trying to be argumentative - just elaborating on why I provided my earlier advice.

Regards,

Scott

[Dave Zellers]

I just love this stuff. My dream is to cut a tree down and mill the log and make something useful out of it but I'm starting to doubt it will ever happen.

So I live vicariously as a woodworker through threads like these.

That looks like a beautiful trunk to me. I hope you are able to make this happen. If that were available to me, I would bend over backwards to make it happen.

Of course at 62 it's getting hard for me to just bend over forwards, so I would certainly understand any and all physical and fiscal obstacles that might present themselves.

But I love this discussion and really hope to see a pic of this tree cut and stacked as it dries.

[Clay Fails]

Why does he want the tree gone? I realize what we see in the photo is limited but that is a gorgeous little scene of tree and fall foliage colors!

Fair question, because it is a gorgeous tree. Answer is a combination of:

1. He is a dear family friend and knows I am a woodworker who will make good use of the lumber.
2. I will be making a table for his family with the lumber.
3. His neighbor is a little concerned because, though healthy, the tree is close to his property and he occasionally gets downed limbs in his yard.

The question I'm still trying to figure out is just how much it's going to cost to get it down and milled. With my recent bad experience resawing a nice piece of 8/4 Qsawn WO, I'm inclined to forego kiln drying and let it dry naturally.

[Clay Fails]

I just love this stuff. My dream is to cut a tree down and mill the log and make something useful out of it but I'm starting to doubt it will ever happen.

So I live vicariously as a woodworker through threads like these.

That looks like a beautiful trunk to me. I hope you are able to make this happen. If that were available to me, I would bend over backwards to make it happen.

Of course at 62 it's getting hard for me to just bend over forwards, so I would certainly understand any and all physical and fiscal obstacles that might present themselves.

But I love this discussion and really hope to see a pic of this tree cut and stacked as it dries.

Dave, I'm pretty sure I'll find a way to make this happen, and will try to document the process and post photos. For me this is about the relationship I have with the owner of the tree and his family, and is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Looking forward to building some beautiful furniture from what we have affectionately called "Harry's Cherry"!