Alternative to Dovetailing

[Darrin Davis]

Are there any alternatives to dovetailing the feet onto the leg of a candle stand as shown below? I know it's the way to do it I'm just wondering.
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[Prashun Patel]

slip tenons. or dowels will be fine as well. In fact, these may be preferable to sliding dovetails as the they will provide mechanical resistance at the bottom of the stem, unlike a sliding dovetail.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I tried a sliding dovetail once years ago and I failed miserably. Admittedly, I am far more proficient than I was then, but, it still scares me to think about trying one.

[Peter Quinn]

Alternative opinion....no, not really, anything else is a compromise. At some level it's about what you trust more, wood or glue to last longer. Given the delicate nature of that type of table I'm thinking the dovetail is really the most appropriate thing available. And if you have the skills to turn the post and shape the curved legs, what's a few routed dovetails? Not by far IMO the hardest part of that piece.

[Tony Leonard]

I built a similar table (plant stand really). I just used a regular mortise/tenon joint. It is still standing!

Tony

[Darrin Davis]

The reason I'm asking is because several of my high school students build these tables and fail at the sliding dovetail portion of the project. I end up having to redo it for them and am looking for an alternative for those who don't have the hand eye coordination for it.

[Dave Richards]

Do you let them use a router?

[Darrin Davis]

Only a table mounted router. We have 2 New Yankee Workshop style router tables with Woodpecker lifts in them.

[Dave Richards]

I would cut those dovetail sockets on the Router Boss using a shop-made "sugar tong vise" to hold the work. I cut the flats for the shoulders of the legs to come up against and then switch to the dovetail bit to cut the socket. Layout is simply three index marks 120 degrees apart on the work and one mark on the vise.

I don't see any reason you couldn't make a work holder to use on the router table, though, which would allow your students to do basically the same thing.

[Lee Schierer]

The reason I'm asking is because several of my high school students build these tables and fail at the sliding dovetail portion of the project. I end up having to redo it for them and am looking for an alternative for those who don't have the hand eye coordination for it.

Check the "New Yankee Workshop", Norm made a nifty jig to precisely cut the sliding dovetails.

[Jim Becker]

Darrin, there may be other ways to do it, but the advantage to the sliding dovetail that is the usual and customary method for this type of table is strength. It's not that difficult to do, either, as you build a jig to cut the female side in the candle stand base (it can be free standing or done on the lathe...my jig was build for the latter) and just run the router down the three center lines twice...the first pass with a straight bit to get the majority of the material and the second with the dovetail bit to get the finalized undercuts. The legs are done on the router table and you generally mill some scrap to zero in on the exact height setting for the bit for a snug, but sliding contour. This joinery, combined with proper grain orientation on the legs works well. BTW, you need to mill the dovetails before you taper the legs which are typically 3/4" thick at the top where the dovetail is and taper to 1/2" at the floor.

I have built several of these candle stands (FW version) and the jig(s) just keep delivering consistent results.

You "could" use a similar technique to use simple tenons (loose or otherwise) but it's the same steps and will ultimately not be quite as strong as the interlocking nature of the sliding dovetails combined with glue.

[Frank Drew]

I'm with Peter and Jim... dovetailing isn't the only method to attach the legs, but it is (IMO) the best method. Even so, these joints are often reinforced, initially or eventually, with a metal "spider" at the bottom of the column, which totally ties in all the legs to the column.

Prashun, I'm not sure what you mean by, "[tenons or dowels] will provide mechanical resistance at the bottom of the stem, unlike a sliding dovetail."

[Stan Calow]

I looked for an alternative too, before I bit the bullet and did the dovetails. Cutting the mortises with a router jig on an indexing lathe is what I did. Cut tenons before cutting out legs from your stock. I made the spider out of scrap wood.

[Jim Matthews]

Why not a simple mortise and tenon, with a pocket screw hidden below?

If you can wedge the tenon in place, it should be plenty strong.
If only the center of the tenon sees glue, it should stay centered.

Refer to Ian Kirby's drawing of tenon varietals, in the link below.
I would think that some variant of a "fox tail wedge" would be within
the range of your students' skill set.

http://www.woodworking.com/ww/Article/Mortise-and-Tenon-Variations-7614.aspx

[Frank Drew]

Jim,

Even Kirby doesn't think the fox tail wedged tenon is very practical for furniture, and for something like this piece, where the tenons would necessarily be quite short, I just can't see it working very well, and it wouldn't be at all easy to bring wedged tenon joints home given the shape of the legs.

Dovetailing can be made easier by cutting the recesses while the work is on the lathe as Jim details, then using the same dovetail bit on the router table to shape the tenons, approaching final fit little by little. You can get a very precise fit this way.

[Jim Matthews]

Jim,

Even Kirby doesn't think the fox tail wedged tenon is very practical for furniture, and for something like this piece, where the tenons would necessarily be quite short, I just can't see it working very well, and it wouldn't be at all easy to bring wedged tenon joints home given the shape of the legs.

It's a student piece, not a museum reproduction.
The OP asked for practical alternatives that beginners could manage.

Balancing a router atop a lathe,
that's not for newbies.

Would a foxed tenon last forever?
Not likely.

Could it be cut and assembled tightly by a novice woodworker with basic tools?
No doubt.

[glenn bradley]

Sam Maloof used two dowels in places (stress positions) that I would not but, his stuff holds up pretty well so, what do I know :)? The challenge you have is the delicate scale, therefor the sliding tenon. I use sliding tenons in such situations but, I would not want to teach someone else to do it so kudos to you for that. I think a floating tenon would be my next guess (and I would walk away from the sliding tenon reluctantly for this as you can maximize your surface contact and control your grain direction. There are as many opinions as woodworkers on something like this. I hope one of them helps.

[Frank Drew]

It's a student piece, not a museum reproduction.
The OP asked for practical alternatives that beginners could manage.

Balancing a router atop a lathe,
that's not for newbies.

Would a foxed tenon last forever?
Not likely.

Could it be cut and assembled tightly by a novice woodworker with basic tools?
No doubt.

Let's agree to disagree, then:

The router and lathe method requires a jig which makes the cut reasonably straightforward to do accurately, and for a project involving multiples (such as with student projects) making the jig is well worth the time.

A well-constructed fox wedged tenon is an excellent joint that can last a very long time in an appropriate application.

Constructing one well is the hard part, noted by Ian Kirby ("I have made many fox tail joints but never used one in furniture. You only get one shot at glue-up.") The mortise has to be undercut so that it's longer at the bottom than at the mouth, but only by the precise amount that the tenon will expand as the wedges are forced into the slots, and the wedges have to be extremely exact in both angle and length so that they expand the tenon precisely and, critically, don't bottom out before the joint is all the way home (before the shoulders contact). And, most importantly, there's no way to test fit the joint -- once it's in, glue or no glue, it's not coming out again, so if you've got a poor fit that's what you're stuck with.

I think it might be a fun joint for somewhat advanced students to experiment with, but not in this application.

[Prashun Patel]

If this is a teaching project, then the dovetails may be the very thing that defines this project, and cheating on it may not be in the spirit of the class.

However, if this is not a concern, then I say, "it's a CANDLE STAND"! Dowels, dovetails, slip tenons will ALL be fine. I built a similar table and used tiny-splined butt joints when I was starting out. I'm surprised at how strong it is, but then, nobody's sitting on it.

Unless this is a heavily used piece, then over-engineering it is just not functionally necessary.

[Jim Becker]

I
Balancing a router atop a lathe,
that's not for newbies.

Interestingly, it's remarkably easy...I'd allow my teenage daughters who are not woodworkers to do it. You make a jig that sits on the lathe bed (indexed to the slot in the bed) and surrounds the workpiece. The router sits on top of the jig and a bushing keeps it centered over the line. It's extremely stable, safe and accurate.

[Jim Matthews]

(and I would walk away from the sliding tenon reluctantly for this as you can maximize your surface contact and control your grain direction.

+1 on this - the reason behind my suggestion.