Specifically, what's the difference in 60, 80 and 100 watts - chinese laser machine

[Wilbur Harris]

I know that I can cut thicker stuff with more power but need a laser that will engrave quite a bit more than cut. I've read for a couple of days and can't seem to determine what power to shoot for. Would you folks give me some pertinent info as to what I can expect given the different powers. I was about to pull the trigger on a 100 watt machine and realized that more power may affect the engraving function. I think I've said enough such that you understand the torment...and my possible misunderstanding. I've used a 60W machine and while it really did just fine, I found myself wanting to cut thicker stuff. Well...y'all know what I'm asking so I'll hush and listen.

[Kev Williams]

When I bought my Triumph, my 3 main options were 80w, 100w, and 130w. My thinking was, I'm doing a lot of Cermark on SS, and in my 40w LS900 it's pretty slow going, so 130w should pick up the speed dramatically. But, the vast majority of my laser use is raster engraving, I don't do much cutting at all. And, since buying the thing was basically an experiment, I went with the 80w.

I'm very glad I did, because this glass tube 80w laser will cut the same items 4x as fast as the 40w Synrad laser in my LS900. And even at 80w it's hard to get the power LOW enough to be suitable. One of the 'restrictions' of most Chinese lasers is the max raster speed- Mine was factory set at 500mm/second. I found I can override that in the system parameters, and I've tested it at 800mm/sec with no problem, and I've run it several hours straight a few times at 700mm/sec with no issues at all. But even 800mm per second is less than half the speed of my LS900, and IT'S only about 60% as fast as a Trotec speedy. What it all means is, the machine can't go fast enough to make use of the 80 watts! And ironically, the one thing I can't get this machine to do to suit me is laser Cermark onto SS, which was the main reason I bought it! But it Cermarks aluminum beautifully, which my LS900 can't do at all.

Sorry for the novel-- But my advice is, if you're going to do mostly raster work, go with 80w. I've gotten mine to cut thru 3/4" maple in one pass with a 4" lens, so it's no wimp. if you're going to be splitting rastering and cutting around 50/50, 100w would probably be okay for all but 'delicate' rastering. I would only consider a 130w laser if I was going to do mostly cutting, or deep wood engraving...

[Kevin Gregerson]

From a little of my experience and the experience of others who sold in this market, glass tubes in the above 100w market tend to be overrated. Where the metal ones that say 150 will output 150-170w the glass ones tend to be 110-130 watts. We tried to figure it out. But, the best we can guess is that it's inherent issues with glass tube design that causes it and prevents it from getting the theoretical max capability of the laser tube.

Also from a cutting perspective with glass tubes their continuous beam tends to provide excellent cutting results on several materials.

[Dave Sheldrake]

glass tubes in the above 100w market tend to be overrated.

GSI / Coherant / SLC tubes all tend to punch above weight. Glass tubes have a design power, a running power and a strike power. Much of the problem isn't the tube it's vendors selling tubes at their maximum rating and not their agreed power. For example the ZX1850 from Beijing EFR is rated at 150 watts, it's maximum power is 180 - 185 watts so some dealers sell them as 180 watt tubes when in fact they are 150's. The ZX2050 is a 180 watt agreed with a rated maximum of 200 - 220 watts but is circa 200mm longer.
RF have no strike spikes so do not pump above power (high strike) for any describable length of time hence they often meet the sold rating.


Also from a cutting perspective with glass tubes their continuous beam tends to provide excellent cutting results on several materials.

Continuous Wave? unless mode-locked so are RF tubes..CW is defined by the average power over a given N period. The fact the laser may switch on and off in that N period isn't what defines Continuous Wave operation.

cheers

Dave

[Ross Moshinsky]

My general opinion is not to buy a Chinese machine if you're looking to engrave. Average western machine = 80ips. Chinese = 20-25ips. So when I run 30% speed on my laser it's basically 100% speed for you. I hate running at 30% speed. On straight text, it's almost okay but logos it's pretty darn slow.

[Wilbur Harris]

OK, can I buy a Chinese machine with a 100W power supply and then install an 80W or less tube?

[Dave Sheldrake]

Voltage will be too high, the electrodes will errode in the tube quite quickly.

cheers

Dave

[Wilbur Harris]

Darn it! It's always something....

[Kevin Gregerson]

GSI / Coherant / SLC tubes all tend to punch above weight. Glass tubes have a design power, a running power and a strike power. Much of the problem isn't the tube it's vendors selling tubes at their maximum rating and not their agreed power. For example the ZX1850 from Beijing EFR is rated at 150 watts, it's maximum power is 180 - 185 watts so some dealers sell them as 180 watt tubes when in fact they are 150's. The ZX2050 is a 180 watt agreed with a rated maximum of 200 - 220 watts but is circa 200mm longer.
RF have no strike spikes so do not pump above power (high strike) for any describable length of time hence they often meet the sold rating.



Continuous Wave? unless mode-locked so are RF tubes..CW is defined by the average power over a given N period. The fact the laser may switch on and off in that N period isn't what defines Continuous Wave operation.

cheers

Dave

Awe, thanks for the explanation.

[Vicki Rivrud]

Yupp! It's always something . . . . I think Kev is telling you the same things I have been .. . . you have to decide first, what you want the laser for:cool:

[David Somers]

Kev,

I am curious. If you were buying a 130W laser primarily for deep wood engraving would a CNC have been a better bet?

Dave

[Wilbur Harris]

OK, two more questions....

What exactly would I be losing going with 100W instead of 80W? I'm pretty clear about the ability to cut but would like to know just what I would lose going with a more powerful tube.

What will I lose if I buy a BIG laser (sizewise)? I've got enough space in this kitchen for quite a large laser...and bigger doesn't seem to cost a whole bunch more. It would seem there's a trade off as other folks likely have as much space as I do and continue to buy the relatively smaller lasers.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Cost of replacement tubes, overall running cost (plug efficiency), the differences between 80 and 100 watt rarely justify the much higer price of the bigger tube. 80 to 130 or 150 has benefits for cutting but not for engraving.

cheers

Dave

[Scott Shepherd]

Dave, don't you sacrifice the lower end, the higher in wattage you go? Don't the glass tube machines drop off at like 10% of power, meaning you'll lose the low end of the range? The higher the wattage, the larger that number will be where it drops off?

That's a question, not a statement.

[Dan Hintz]

That's a question, not a statement.

Consider it a statement...

DC-excited tubes have a low end right from the get-go, regardless of wattage (for all intents and purposes)... let's call it 5% and under is not going to happen. Things are twitchy up to around 7-8%, then lasing becomes relatively stable. But 8% of a 120W system is twice as big as a 60W system, so those delicate substrates are going to get blown away.

[Scott Shepherd]

Is your name Dave? :D Aren't you supposed to be fixing a house or traveling? :p

(glad to see you back! Can't you tell?)

[Dave Sheldrake]

Lot of the problem is the tube lengths in the higher powers, to strike and hold the arc requires both higher voltage and a higher current.

Take an 80 watt RECI / EFR, at 1200mm long they require *about* 12% to fire reliably (from 8 or so like Dan said but it isn't very reliable) so that's your real base line, if that 12% is too much for the material you will be on to a loser from the get-go. On cheaper tubes that have slimmer body profiles they require even more current so a standard 80 watt CL tube or such like at 60 watts will still only fire at the same as the 80 watt RECI etc.
The other problem is the bigger tubes usually have a much smaller final spot size so a far higher power density (my 180 watt EFR produces a smaller spot than the equivalent 60 watt EFR) this is simple physics of spot sizes from a bigger incident beam diameter.

80 watt tubes should be considered the realistic limit for engraving in a DC box and even then an 80 watt EFR or RECI fatbody may still be too much requiring a 60 watt to get best results (Fatbody tubes start at 80+ watt usually)

Only way round it is speed but then you have the problem of the lower grade Chinese steppers comes into play with corner wobble and lost steps starting to cause problems so even though you may want to go faster the mechanics of the systems means you can't :(

If the largest part of my work was engraving not cutting I'd either be looking at 100 watt DC Galvo's or 60 watt gantry machines if it HAD to be Chinese with a true preference being something like a Trotech speedy 300 if my business was reliant upon it.
Don't get me wrong I love Chinese machines, they make me money but they simply don't make good high speed engravers unless you go the Galvo route.

Using Chinese gantry machines for engraving will work for the small or very specialist company but anybody who want's throughput and reliability really needs to go Galvo or Western made (or possibly Chinese gantry with Panasonic servo drives and ball screws but then you are back into Western price brackets anyways)

Ideally a Chinese system with Japanese screw drives running with a western Coherant or Synrad RF tube but the reality is that's going to cost as much as a Speedy 300 anyways :(

cheers

Dave

[Wilbur Harris]

See if I have this right...80 and 100W have a minimum reliability of 9.6 and 12Watts power and 12watts power is too much to engrave on some stuff - because the Chinese laser can't go that fast? I don't think I understand what you are saying now that I've typed those words....I'm not trying to be difficult at all.

I could just buy an 80W machine and be happy with it....just because y'all said so. When I get to something I can't do I'll just say..."OOPS - don't have enough power. I know y'all are aware that's gonna happen regardless of available power. Me too! The piece will just be thicker than it would have been....

What about the table size? Will I lose power across the table if it's too big or is that something I just came up with on my own?

Y'all keep posting about an "EFR" tube. What is that versus a RECI tube? I guess I'm not asking the real difference but rather which is best.

[Dave Sheldrake]

80 and 100W have a minimum reliability of 9.6 and 12Watts power and 12watts power is too much to engrave on some stuff - because the Chinese laser can't go that fast?

spot on Wil,

You do lose power over distance on any laser with flying optics but the losses are fractions of a watt usually so long as the extraction is working (carbon dust in the cabinet that isn't extracted will block IR laser beams very effectively) in essence, it's not really anything to worry about and will go un-noticed most of the time.

I used both RECI and EFR for some years and as yet other than tubes like the GSI SLC series I haven't found a glass tube that performs like EFR tubes do in that price bracket. 10,000 hrs life isn't so much up to and a good start point with EFR, they are ultra reliable and VERY high quality beam profiles.
Of all my glass tube machines I won't use anything except EFR or GSI these days (and GSI SLC cost 10x as much as any chinese tubes)(think $25,000 for a 200 watt SLC)

cheers

Dave

[Rodne Gold]

I am now on 4 years running with my chinese machines in a very rough production factory and I am astonished by their reliability.. granted they arent fast.

I had a 60w machine and converted it to a 80w Reci ..which after lasting 4 years of 8 hours a day over 220 days, failed.. lets be conservative and say 5000 real firing hours . I consider that good value considering the tube cost $500
I have reverted back to what I think is a EFR 60w tube? At any rate I power tested it at 90% and it was pushing 64w, we tested my other 4 yr old reci 80w laser at 90%- 80w spot on.
My engraving quality has gone up on the 60w , and it cuts faster than the reci 80w laser so much so , I maybe convert the 80w to a 60w

[Dave Sheldrake]

The beam profiles are astounding on the EFR's Rod, when I ran mine through the profiler they get so close to TEM00 it's amazing! the ZX series like the 1850 even after 3 years use are still pumping 174 watts at 90% (it's a 150 watt agreed tube)

Really well made kit ;)

cheers

Dave

[Wilbur Harris]

Will I need anything other than the EFR tube or does EFR require some modification if the existing machine has a RECI tube?

[Rich Harman]

...and it cuts faster than the reci 80w laser so much so , I maybe convert the 80w to a 60w

The 60W cuts faster than the 80W? Could it be that the 80W was not performing up to spec? Does not make sense that 75% of the power makes for faster cutting.

Regarding beam profile, the only way I have to test is by firing into a block of acrylic, here is what my Reci W2 did;

[Rodne Gold]

Well , better beam quality is a key component , if the beam is well focussed and has more energy density in a smaller spot than another - it will perform better , even if the other tube has more watts.

[Martin Safranek]

When I bought my Triumph, my 3 main options were 80w, 100w, and 130w. My thinking was, I'm doing a lot of Cermark on SS, and in my 40w LS900 it's pretty slow going, so 130w should pick up the speed dramatically. But, the vast majority of my laser use is raster engraving, I don't do much cutting at all. And, since buying the thing was basically an experiment, I went with the 80w.

I'm very glad I did, because this glass tube 80w laser will cut the same items 4x as fast as the 40w Synrad laser in my LS900. And even at 80w it's hard to get the power LOW enough to be suitable. One of the 'restrictions' of most Chinese lasers is the max raster speed- Mine was factory set at 500mm/second. I found I can override that in the system parameters, and I've tested it at 800mm/sec with no problem, and I've run it several hours straight a few times at 700mm/sec with no issues at all. But even 800mm per second is less than half the speed of my LS900, and IT'S only about 60% as fast as a Trotec speedy. What it all means is, the machine can't go fast enough to make use of the 80 watts! And ironically, the one thing I can't get this machine to do to suit me is laser Cermark onto SS, which was the main reason I bought it! But it Cermarks aluminum beautifully, which my LS900 can't do at all.

Sorry for the novel-- But my advice is, if you're going to do mostly raster work, go with 80w. I've gotten mine to cut thru 3/4" maple in one pass with a 4" lens, so it's no wimp. if you're going to be splitting rastering and cutting around 50/50, 100w would probably be okay for all but 'delicate' rastering. I would only consider a 130w laser if I was going to do mostly cutting, or deep wood engraving...


Hi Kev,

can i ask you how fast and what material your 80w RECI cut so fast?
Thanks.

Martin

[Dave Sheldrake]

Regarding beam profile, the only way I have to test is by firing into a block of acrylic, here is what my Reci W2 did;

That will show the combination of modes Rich but not the prevalent mode, most chinese tubes tend to be multi-mode, that's a lot of the reason for their inefficiency compared to RF units :(

cheers

Dave

[Wilbur Harris]

OK, what is the current estimate - total shipping cost from china for a laser? This from the fellow at Shenhui:

"So we offer the FOB Qingdao price. The machine is within 8 cube,and weight is about 500kg."

I don't know (clearly) what "FOB Quindao" means just yet....:)

[Dan Hintz]

OK, what is the current estimate - total shipping cost from china for a laser? This from the fellow at Shenhui:

"So we offer the FOB Qingdao price. The machine is within 8 cube,and weight is about 500kg."

I don't know (clearly) what "FOB Quindao" means just yet....:)

Freight On Board... essentially, the price quoted will get your package to the local seaport. All remaining fees (such as transportation from port to your door) are on you...

[Rich Harman]

OK, what is the current estimate - total shipping cost from china for a laser? This from the fellow at Shenhui:

"So we offer the FOB Qingdao price. The machine is within 8 cube,and weight is about 500kg."

I don't know (clearly) what "FOB Quindao" means just yet....:)

I highly recommend using a broker. They arranged everything from picking up at Shenhui to delivery at my door. - for much less than I expected.

[John Noell]

I was very happy allowing them to include shipping to my local port of entry (i.e., FOB Suva), as they only charged $200 for the shipping. It took over a month but worked out quite well. Then I used a local customs broker to pay all duty, VAT, fees.

Wilbur, who are you dealing with at Shenhui? John Wang perhaps? That's who handled mine.

[Wilbur Harris]

All good but I'm trying to determine if I can afford the laser from the start. Need to know what folks have paid total, above the actual cost of the laser, to get it in house. I apologize for any stupidity involved but don't want to get caught with a thousand or so from something I didn't think of - or better said - that y'all didn't think of.

[David Somers]

Wilbur,

Dont know where you are shipping to. But for me here in Seattle, from Quingdao Port, was about $300 for the ocean freight, and about $700 in US Customs Fees and Duty, and then trucking from the Port of Seattle to my house using a lift gate equipped truck, which is only about 8 miles from the port. Adding the CNC to the order upped that a bit, but not by much. Assuming Customs either sends the container on through as is, or does a simple xray of it that cost will be pretty close. If they require the container to be emptied and inspected by hand then warehousing and handling costs will get added onto that and could climb fast depending on what Customs does. Something to be aware of. The odds of that seem low, but you know how Murphy works.

Dave

[Wilbur Harris]

"Wilbur, who are you dealing with at Shenhui? John Wang perhaps? That's who handled mine"

Yes, I believe that's the guy....I'll look when I get home and follow up if not.

-----------------------------

I'm shipping to Tennessee.

[Wilbur Harris]

Yes, it's John Wang....

[Bill George]

If your afraid of the unknown (I was) for shipping, customs and other charges get a Chinese machine from a US vender. Rabbit USA, Automation Technology (advertiser here) and LightObject can either sell you a in stock machine or get you one at a fixed cost.

[abby ZHANG]

hi


80W laser tube will be good at both engraving and cutting. this is the best option.

if you cut thick material most,you can also buy 100W laser machine, but prepare extra 50.8mm focus lens, when you do engraving, then change the focus lens 63.5mm to 50.8mm

the effect will be better use thinner laser light.

thanks and regards
Abby



I know that I can cut thicker stuff with more power but need a laser that will engrave quite a bit more than cut. I've read for a couple of days and can't seem to determine what power to shoot for. Would you folks give me some pertinent info as to what I can expect given the different powers. I was about to pull the trigger on a 100 watt machine and realized that more power may affect the engraving function. I think I've said enough such that you understand the torment...and my possible misunderstanding. I've used a 60W machine and while it really did just fine, I found myself wanting to cut thicker stuff. Well...y'all know what I'm asking so I'll hush and listen.

[Dan Hintz]

80W laser tube will be good at both engraving and cutting. this is the best option.

if you cut thick material most,you can also buy 100W laser machine, but prepare extra 50.8mm focus lens, when you do engraving, then change the focus lens 63.5mm to 50.8mm

the effect will be better use thinner laser light.

An 80W DC tube with a 2" lens may not allow for the engraving of delicate materials due to the minimum power requirements... know what substrates you plan to work with before going this route.

[Martin James]

60 watt is a better choice for engraving because the spot is much smaller., Read the "smallest character" in the specs.

M

[Wilbur Harris]

Martin - I see in your "signature" that you might have a dual tube laser. If that's the case, can you engrave with the 60W and cut the engraving with the 150W? Is the software capable of doing that accurately?

[Wilbur Harris]

An 80W DC tube with a 2" lens may not allow for the engraving of delicate materials due to the minimum power requirements... know what substrates you plan to work with before going this route.

There's the problem and exactly the problem. I don't have any specific plans - which makes it somewhat difficult but not entirely to make a decision on the power. Sooooo....here's what I'm thinking. Buy an 80W (maybe a dual tube), big bed laser and see what happens! It's just money....

[Dave Sheldrake]

Could be a good choice Wil, sometimes the big chinese machines like the large cabinet stuff and flatbeds just can't make use of the really high powers until you move to ballscrew / servo combinations. 80 watt (or in some cases 60 watt) can be more than enough unless you plan on just cutting cutting cutting all day.

cheers

Dave

[William Dillon]

I highly recommend using a broker. They arranged everything from picking up at Shenhui to delivery at my door. - for much less than I expected.

So true. I don't see how it's possible without a broker, really. In the US, I couldn't find a way to file my ISF (10+2) without a broker. I wish I knew what FOB really meant about two months ago. It cost $200 for shipping to the Port of Portland (Oregon) via the port of Long Beach (California) which I paid through the seller. There were $160 of fees from Long Beach. The broker bill was $667, which included the fees from Long Beach. I picked the unit up from the port myself. The crate of a 4040 40W engraver just fit in the back of my 4-Runner.

[abby ZHANG]

Hope Mike don't think it is the advertsing

Just for your rerference. friends in US import machine from China.

with detail fees use customs broker.

Google "Polygonlabs" and you'll find a blog with details about the import process.

hope this helps.



So true. I don't see how it's possible without a broker, really. In the US, I couldn't find a way to file my ISF (10+2) without a broker. I wish I knew what FOB really meant about two months ago. It cost $200 for shipping to the Port of Portland (Oregon) via the port of Long Beach (California) which I paid through the seller. There were $160 of fees from Long Beach. The broker bill was $667, which included the fees from Long Beach. I picked the unit up from the port myself. The crate of a 4040 40W engraver just fit in the back of my 4-Runner.