Fore plane question

[Henry Burlingame III]

Hi everyone,

The only two planes I own at the moment are a LN low angle jack plane and a LN adjustable mouth block plane.

I am also currently building my workbench (a roubo in douglas fir). I managed to use the jack plane to plane the faces of the boards well enough to laminate up the top with everything flush. I am now working on flattening the top. It has been quite a learning experience and I have now come to realize why it might be a good idea to own more than one plane, and to that end I am trying to figure what planes to buy.

The jack plane isn't the most convenient to use to flatten such a large surface (the straightedge is becoming my most used tool!) so I was thinking that I would get a LN #7 for jointing. The bevel up also doesn't seem like the best tool to use as a fore plane either, so I was thinking about getting a cheap stanley bailey #5 or #6 to handle this task (since it will just be for rough work I didn't think a LN would be necessary here). I would then use the jack plane I have as a smoothing plane, and for shooting end grain etc. I hope this sounds like a good plan?

So what I want to know is what you guys think would be more useful to me as a fore plane... either a #5 or a #6? I am having a hard time deciding. Oh, and I am not interested in wooden planes at the moment :-).

Thanks so much!

[David Weaver]

I'd use the 6 as a fore plane and the 5 as a jack.

the LN 7 is a nice plane, and when you're new to it, it's a very solid and easy to use plane.

Right now, you need experience using the planes so get a few and do some sharpening and plane pushing. Experiment with things, see how it goes.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Space is tighter than money to me: I use my LN BU jack for rough work all the time, rather than pick up another plane. I'd really like something lighter for that kind of work, but with the mouth opened up, and a cambered blade, it's performed great. The speed of swapping blades on that plane is nice for this.

[Henry Burlingame III]

I'd use the 6 as a fore plane and the 5 as a jack.

David, I was under the impression that the terms jack plane and fore plane were used interchangeably. If this is not the case what is the difference? I just need a plane to be able to rough dimension boards (i.e. get rid of significant cup or bow etc.) before going on to use the jointer plane to get them perfectly flat.

Thanks again!

[David Weaver]

A jack plane is a coarser plane than a fore plane. Narrower shorter plane and a shorter radius on the iron in general.

The terms for all of these planes aren't that well defined now (if I say fore, and you say fore, we may have slightly different ideas in mind as to the roles - from a coarse plane for rough lumber to some folks' idea of using a fore plane like an infill panel plane - that to mean a large sized panel flattener that doesn't take too coarse of a cut).

At any rate, with a plane like a stanley 6, you can decide how you want to set it up.

If setting up a fore plane with slightly longer radius than a jack (as in less severe curve), then I'd reserve the jack for knocking out significant cup or bow and the fore plane for taking the rough off of a rough board and readying it for jointing/flattening.

We all do things a little differently, I guess, but what we all converge to is that we have a kit (we being people who dimension wood from rough lumber to finish) that will minimize the amount of work it takes to get from rough to finished, and regardless of our terminology, that means having at least one plane that we use only for rough lumber or wood that has a problem (cup, bow, high corners), one plane that can make a panel flat and one plane that smooths.

At this stage, you just want to get your hands on planes and soak in everything you can. There is no substitute for experience.

[Mike Holbrook]

Henry,
The fore plane (#6 Stanley) is probably the hardest for a new woodworker to figure out, not in terms of it being hard to use but in terms of what it was/is designed to do vs the other planes. From what I have read there have been those who used/use this plane as a rough plane, more like many use the #5 Jack. Then there are those who use it more like a #7 jointer plane, for flattening edges and surfaces.

There have been a number of heated debates on this subject on these pages in the past. In the final analysis different people use the same planes for very different work. I was reading a thread yesterday in which a poster converted a #4, traditionally a finishing plane, into a rough plane used to do the work of a scrub plane. I have a 17" wooden Fore plane that is set up as more of a finishing, fine shavings tool and a Stanley #6c (corrugated) I won at auction recently that I am refurbishing as more of a rough flattening plane for larger pieces. There are respected posters here who use their #6 as a jointer and do not typically use a #7. There are those who go from a #5 to a #7 and skip the #6. It just depends on what you like, how you work and the specific work you do.

I like the BU (bevel up) or LA (Low Angle) planes as basic planes, because by simply switching out the blade one can significantly alter the ability of the plane to work various types of woods and wood grains. I'm not sure why there are not #6 BU planes commonly available. Not sure about LN planes but the LV bevel up smoother, low angle jack, and bevel up jointer all use the same size blade. Those three planes with the three available blade profiles make a very versatile set.

[Henry Burlingame III]

This is all very interesting and informative, thank you guys.

I was thinking about getting another blade for the LA jack I have to camber it and use it for roughing, but the cost is about the same as a stanley #5 or #6 on ebay, so I figured I may as well get a dedicated plane.

So, if I go ahead and get the #7 for jointing and then use my LA jack for smoothing, and you had to recommend to me one additional plane for roughing what would it be?

[Mike Holbrook]

I believe the most popular rough or scrub plane in threads on the subject in these pages has been the #5 with a cambered blade. There are posters on these pages who have several or more #5s all set up a little differently. The dedicated scrub planes are popular with some but not so popular with others. The fact that scrub planes are not as common drives up their auction prices. If you want a little different plane than the standard 5 you might look for a Stanley 5 1/4. The 5 1/4 is a narrower smaller #5. Advocates of a scrub plane think the smaller plane is easier to move when larger amounts of wood are being taken off. Others like a heavier plane for working tricky grain or removing more wood. You could go the opposite direction and look for a 5 1/2 which is a heavier version of the #5, but then you are close to a #6 again. Usually #4 and below are used more for final finishing, #7 & up are for flattening surfaces and truing edges, which leaves the 5&6 in the middle as the rougher planes. Although as has been mentioned all these rules are often broken.

A good many people buy a smoother as their second or even first plane. Especially people who work smaller pieces. You probably want one of your planes to be kept well tuned for working final surfaces. On your current large project it sounds like your existing precisely manufactured LN BU will work well as a fine plane. The rougher plane does not need to be nearly as precise so a less expensive, common, #5: Stanley, Union, Keen Kutter, Sargeant or Millers Falls plane is a good choice. The Stanley planes are certainly the easiest to find replacement parts for so they are worth the small additional cost. The #7 is the classic plane for flattening large surfaces like bench tops. If you do not have power equipment to help with dimensioning and smoothing your bench top a #7 will be a welcome friend. The #7 is also where many feel it is worth spending additional funds to get a more precise tool.

Derek Cohen has: some interesting plane reviews, a comparison of BU vs BD planes and some interesting things to say about fore & jointer planes on his blog:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com

[David Weaver]

This is all very interesting and informative, thank you guys.

I was thinking about getting another blade for the LA jack I have to camber it and use it for roughing, but the cost is about the same as a stanley #5 or #6 on ebay, so I figured I may as well get a dedicated plane.

So, if I go ahead and get the #7 for jointing and then use my LA jack for smoothing, and you had to recommend to me one additional plane for roughing what would it be?

A Stanley bailey 5.

[don wilwol]

You really can't go wrong with a #5. Then you just need to decide on the amount of camber. The more aggressive the camber, the rougher the work.

The #6 works well for a fore plane. As stated, use it after the jack.

[Warren Mickley]

The terms jack plane and fore plane are confusing and ambiguous terms. Here is what Moxon wrote in 1678:

298503

A century later the term jack plane was used for a joiner's tool.

Merriam Webster unabridged 1886 lists a jack plane as a joiner's tool and a fore plane as a carpenter's tool, just the opposite of Moxon.

Stanley used the terms jack and fore plane for their #5 and #6 planes, but it is doubtful that many of these planes were used for stock preparation the way historical jack planes were.

If you want to avoid confusion, then use terms like "Bailey #5" or "wooden jack plane" when describing these planes.

[Sean Hughto]

You will likely have them all eventually, so the order of purchase doesn't matter much.

As to what to get, that depends on what sort of work you like to do, how you like to do it, and what woods you like to do it with.

For example if you only buy S2S lumber, you aren't going to need heavy duty dimensioning planes. If, instead, you split planks from logs and dry them yourself or buy stuff from some guy on Craig's list that hacked out planks with and Alaska -mill, you might appreciate a scrub. If you only plane to make small jewelry boxes and humidors, your needs will likely be different from someone who makes mostly large trestle tables and armoires. Etc. Etc.

My 2 cents, assuming you are going to make a range of projects as a hobbiest.
- a $30 - $50 Stanley prewar worker jack (5 or 5 1/2) that you can grind with a significant camber for your flattening and thicknessing needs
- a good pre-war Stanley or LN 7 for jointing edges and second step flattening of panels and tops, etc.
- a pre-war Stanley or LN 3 or 4 smoother

Those are the next planes I would recommend for you.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Another option is to buy an additional blade for the LA Jack, and grind a fairly aggressive camber on it (the camber will have to be very pronounced due to the low bedding angle). Then open the mouth a bit and you can use that as your fore plane/jack.

That said, it is always nice to be able to reach for a different plane to do what you want without fiddling with blade changes, etc. A vintage #5 or 6 would do great.

[Sean Hughto]

due to the low bedding angle

I'm no engineer, but intuitively, I think it's the bevel orientation more than the bedding angle that demands a much more dramatic curve on a BU plane to achieve the same effective camber as on a BD plane. Just thinking out loud, it's not really important.

[Warren Mickley]

The bedding angle is the important factor for effective camber.

Effective camber= sine of bedding angle X camber of blade

sine 45 = .707
sine 12 = .208

[Sean Hughto]

That's why I asked. Thanks, Warren. In my mind's eye, the BU presents a straight line cutting edge even when ground to a curve whereas the BD has the effective camber enhanced because as you grind the curve the thickness of the blade presents a cutting edge that falls away the closer you get to the corners.

[David Weaver]

The bedding angle is the important factor for effective camber.

Effective camber= sine of bedding angle X camber of blade

sine 45 = .707
sine 12 = .208

As in the camber on a 12 degree bedded plane iron would need to be 0.707/0.208 = approximately 3.4 times greater to get the same depth of cut as one on a common pitch bevel down plane.

I'd always suggest that for true jack work, a common pitch bevel down plane is ideal. The above is one reason, but the feel in use is another - the BD common pitch planes just seem to have a better feel in verticality, etc, to them.

[Joshua Hancock]

I recall an episode of the Woodwrights Shop where Peter Follansbee (Peters Box I believe, its on youtube) where he described a fore plane as a roughing plane or "The first plane you use (I.e. for roughing out). The one he was using was a short horned plane, looking more like an scrub plane. However that is neither here nor there on the OP's question.

Keep in mind that the size of the stock you work with as your strength/endurance can have a large impact on plane selection. If you are removing large amounts of stock, a larger plane such as Stanley 6 will be heavier and have more resistance to overcome with a larger cutting blade and longer body. Also if you generally work with shorter boards, say 24" - 30" than a Stanley 5 can work as a jointer ( I was once told a 1:2 plane length:stock length is a good rulenfor jointing). I personally agree with the above on a Stanley 5 to bring it down ( set up to remove large amounts of stock) if necessary and then I might use my 6 or even skip to my 8 to finish it off to make it ready for joinery( I don't have 7, and love the extra weight of my 8).

Side note, I do believe that Patrick Leach stated that stanley described the 6 as a "shorter joiner", and I read somewhere that the 6 was often used as such because it was smaller and lighter making it easier to tote around to the job site.

Respectfully,
Josh

[Jim Koepke]

Henry,

A belated welcome to the Creek. Your profile doesn't indicate your location. You may live near another member who would be happy to have you over for a test drive of the different sized planes. If you are in the Portland, OR area you would be welcome to bring some wood over to my place and give the different sized planes a workout.

I like my #5 planes for a lot of things, including there being so many of them their price is fairly reasonable.

My #6s get used a lot for flattening and joining smaller pieces.

My LN #62, Low Angle Bevel Up Jack, gets used mostly for end grain work. Not so much for face or edge grain.

Some folks enjoy the ability to change blades from plane to plane. My #4-1/2, #6 & #7 all take the same blades but they are never swapped around, at least not on purpose. For me it is just easier to have multiple planes of the same size. This strategy isn't for everyone.


So, if I go ahead and get the #7 for jointing and then use my LA jack for smoothing, and you had to recommend to me one additional plane for roughing what would it be?

My favorite planes for scrub use are an old beat up #5-1/4, it came from a bad ebay deal, or a Millers Falls #9, the same size as a Stanley/Bailey #3. These are light planes that make the rapid back and forth movement easy for me.

For a rough piece not in need of a scrub plane one of my #6 planes gets the job. It is also what gets used after a scrub plane most of the time.

Everyone does things differently. That is why, if you have the opportunity, getting to use the different planes is so helpful in determining what may be the best plane(s) for your needs.

jtk

[Henry Burlingame III]

Thanks everyone, you have all been extremely helpful. I think I am just going to go ahead and grab a stanley bailey #5 off of ebay.

Jim, thanks for the invite. I was just up in Portland, OR for the last year, but am in Tucson AZ now. I will have to update my profile.

Thanks again everyone!