Shoulder planes

[Adam Cruea]

Just a quick question here for you folks that make your tenons by hand.

How many use shoulder planes? Do you find them incredibly useful for the task, or do they seem rather daft? Do you prefer to undercut the shoulders with a chisel instead? Or are you perfect and don't need to worry about any of this (I know there are those that can bisect a line perfectly with a saw every time)? Or do you do something else?

My concern stems from my hand-cut tenons seeming to be sub-par to the quality I would like; that being the quality of absolutely no gap between the tenon shoulder and the contact surface around the mortise. The smallest bit of light, to me, is a glaring mistake that makes me want to throw the project out the window. I'd say the biggest gap I see is maybe 1/32"; enough that I can see it, it annoys me, and I think it looks like complete and utter crud.

Thanks, y'all.

[Sean Hughto]

Shoulder planes are often useful to me, but not for truing shoulders. I prefer to pare to a knifed line:

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3132/3116548915_5dbf418f80_o.jpg

[David Weaver]

No shoulder planes. Slight undercut with the chisels, and if possible, mallet and bench chisel rather than parer to work to the marked line - if the line is marked accurately, the tenon will also be accurate.

You're right, a 1/32nd gap looks terrible. With a little bit of practice, you really shouldn't have any shoulder gaps (using the method I just described) that are big enough to put more than a sheet of paper through, and if you should get any of those small gaps, you can hide them with glue or often close them with clamps.

conceptually, shoulder planes seem like something that should be great to use to the marked line, but I don't find them quite as accurate in use (nor as fast) as sawing just short of the line and using a reasonably wide chisel for the final cut in the marked line. you can leave the shoulder plane for error correction or really large tenons at that point.

[Sean Hughto]

dry fit result (you can judge if these are tight enough):

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3196/3123675357_5386b20a21_o.jpg

[Tom Vanzant]

Bench chisel to the knifed lines, then bench chisel to undercut. Works for me.

[Adam Cruea]

Thanks, y'all!


No shoulder planes. Slight undercut with the chisels, and if possible, mallet and bench chisel rather than parer to work to the marked line - if the line is marked accurately, the tenon will also be accurate.

You're right, a 1/32nd gap looks terrible. With a little bit of practice, you really shouldn't have any shoulder gaps (using the method I just described) that are big enough to put more than a sheet of paper through, and if you should get any of those small gaps, you can hide them with glue or often close them with clamps.

conceptually, shoulder planes seem like something that should be great to use to the marked line, but I don't find them quite as accurate in use (nor as fast) as sawing just short of the line and using a reasonably wide chisel for the final cut in the marked line. you can leave the shoulder plane for error correction or really large tenons at that point.

Never thought about using glue to hide a small gap. I usually choose brute force with clamps.

And this is why I'm a rank amateur. :D

[David Weaver]

Well, glue isn't preferable! A tight joint definitely is, but if the error is a tiny gap, just a little bit of glue is better than a dark line left from finish filling the gap. Though it's taboo to talk about, when I worked in a cabinet factory on an assembly line, every person had a filler stick if cabinets came down the line with small gaps in the face frames. They also looked far better than leaving the gap open. If the gap was large, the cabinet got a new face frame, though.

We're all (well all but a very select few) rank amateurs :)

[william sympson]

It depends for me - furniture sized tenons I usually use a chisel like others. For large shoulders, like 1.5" x 8", I prefer a shoulder plane.

R/
William

[Daniel Rode]

I don't have a shoulder plane, so I learned to pare down to a knife line. It seemed impossible at first but after relatively little practice, I could see and feel the knife lines. Turned out to be much easier that I first thought.

On a related note, I was watching an episode of the Woodwright's shop where Peter Follansbee was making a 17 century frame and panel chest. He explained that the period joiners undercut the front shoulder (straight off the saw) and cut the back shoulder short. The idea was that only the leading edge of the front shoulder made contact and no gap showed.

These were functional chests efficiently made and not necessarily beautiful furniture.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I use a chisel in a knife line like David mentions. The tough part for me is getting things good all the way around the piece. You can be a little more lax about a gap on the inside of a cabinet, where it doesn't show.

I'm still not always great at it, and the only way I've gotten any better is practice and particular attention to accurate marking.

One thing I have picked up is to careful with undercutting, if you're too bold with it, and have to go back and plane the piece, you can end up showing a gap that wasn't visible at the glue up!

[Prashun Patel]

I have a shoulder plane. It has it's place - but IMHO not on tenons.

Personally, I like my chisels more and more. They're just more versatile.
Also, as I'm getting better at sawing and sharpening my chisels, (it's ultimately about better sawing and sharpness anyway) I find clean up quicker with a chisel.

Last, ain't nothing wrong with undercutting the shoulder!

[john zulu]

I use shoulder planes for tenons. This is due to my chisel skills. Need more practise. For shoulder planes I can be more sloppy? :)

[Derek Cohen]

Shoulder planes are useful for more than tenon shoulders. I find one invaluable for fine tuning rebates and breadboard ends, as well as small precision planing.

While I may also use a wide chisel for shoulders, it is often easier to use a shoulder plane to plane to a fine line when the gap is small ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallShoulderPlane_html_5a90b601.jpg

The first step here is to knife a new shoulder line.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallShoulderPlane_html_554eed19.jpg

Now shoot down to the line, using the cheek to rest the side of the plane.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallShoulderPlane_html_m1caa9a51.jpg

Clean up the ends with a chisel.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallShoulderPlane_html_mc66e921.jpg
And here is the result. On the left is the reference face, and on the right is the back side.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallShoulderPlane_html_m235fccee.jpg



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Adam Cruea]

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasSmallShoulderPlane_html_5a90b601.jpg


That's probably the best example of the worst of my gaps that I have to deal with coming straight off the saw.

If my wife sees it, she doesn't see a problem. Me? It looks gawd-awful like I had a full-on epileptic seizure while trying to cut it.

I actually appreciate the pictures, Derek. They make me realize maybe I'm just being way too hard on myself at times.

[paul cottingham]

Shoulder plane. But if fine, fiddly work didn't hurt my hands so much, I would use a chisel. I use my shoulder planes for more than just tenons.

[David Weaver]

that one is pretty bad, and beyond what I'd expect a little bit of glue to solve (of course, the problem is only on one side). If you mark things well, you should expect you won't see many like that.

If I have problems with tenons (shoulders at least), it's because of sloppy marking or a sloppy job jointing the stiles are going in to.

Speaking in more detail than should be said, I guess, I prefer to saw close to the line without it being so close that the wood crumbles between the saw and the line. That leaves enough wood to get the chisel to stay in the cut, but not so much that the chisel is wedged back pushing the cut past the marking line when taking off the waste in one pass.

Someone paring the shoulders would want less wood left on than that, though - sean's picture is a good guide for paring.

[Christopher Charles]

Came across this last week:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/chisel-tricks-for-hand-cut-joinery.aspx

enjoy,
C

[Jim Koepke]

Put me in the chisel most of the time column.

It is a bit more controllable than a shoulder plane.

My shoulder plane is often used on rabbets or lap joints.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Came across this last week:

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/chisel-tricks-for-hand-cut-joinery.aspx

enjoy,
C

Phil Lowe is top shelf. It seems like he's got a special chisel for paring the shoulders like that (one at a shallow angle).

[Kees Heiden]

Wow, he leaves a lot of material to be removed! I've never thought about that method. always try to saw as best as I can. Often I can fit them witout paring the shoulderline. The cheecks usually need a bit of work. When it doesn't quite work out as expected, I'll use either a chisel or a shoulderplane.

[David Weaver]

Presume he's working genuine mahogany there, and most of us don't get our hands on that too much. It's more forgiving to that kind of removal. I generally try to saw to the line, too, but half the time or so need to pare the faces of the tenons to get the joint to fit. I'd like it to be 0% if the time!!

I like his method, though, and will try it on cherry, which is the common as water wood here.

[Steve Voigt]

I hadn't seen that video before, but I read the accompanying article (4 chisel tricks) a couple years ago, and I've been doing tenons his way ever since. Much faster than a shoulder plane or a router plane. I have a couple shoulder planes, but they are thick with dust. I should really sell them.

That's pretty funny when he chucks the router in the trash. :D

[Daniel Rode]

I've never worked with real mahogany but I think the shallow angle on the chisel made a big difference, too. I'm often working in pine with an angle around 30 degrees so removing that much material at once would just tear chunks.

I have duplicates for many size chisels, so I'm mulling sharpening a few just for paring. Maybe 25 degrees or a bit less? It's not that I want to take bigger bites, I want to make smoother, more controlled cuts.

I have some cherry on the rack, I'll have to give it a try to see how differently it responds. I might seem easy after so much pine :)


Presume he's working genuine mahogany there, and most of us don't get our hands on that too much. It's more forgiving to that kind of removal. I generally try to saw to the line, too, but half the time or so need to pare the faces of the tenons to get the joint to fit. I'd like it to be 0% if the time!!

I like his method, though, and will try it on cherry, which is the common as water wood here.

[David Weaver]

I've never worked with real mahogany but I think the shallow angle on the chisel made a big difference, too. I'm often working in pine with an angle around 30 degrees so removing that much material at once would just tear chunks.

I have duplicates for many size chisels, so I'm mulling sharpening a few just for paring. Maybe 25 degrees or a bit less? It's not that I want to take bigger bites, I want to make smoother, more controlled cuts.

I have some cherry on the rack, I'll have to give it a try to see how differently it responds. I might seem easy after so much pine :)

Try a few degrees below 25. If you tried what he's doing with that chisel on something like white oak, the edge of the chisel would get beat up. I'd guess looking at the chisel, it's 25 degrees or a few below. it stinks to pare with any higher angle than you have to, but it also stinks to start paring stuff and have the edge getting beat up and the corners disappearing off of the chisel.

Doesn't need to be a big long chisel, either. Any vintage chisel you can find for $10 is a good candidate, as is a piece of O1 stock in a shop made handle.

[Jim Matthews]

If you're truing a shoulder on a crosspiece in an assembly
(like a door), make sure that both pieces are trimmed to the same length
once you've made an adjustment.

Shoulder plane blades must be sharp, both on the cutting edge
and on the side of the blade, to properly trim a shoulder.

I was trained to plane in toward the middle of both sides of the shoulder.
If the plane is drawn all the way across a shoulder,
the potential for "blow out" at the end of the pass.

Me, I use a shoulder plane on rare occasion,
now that I can get a chisel genuinely sharp.

[Greg Berlin]

Owned a shoulder plane once. Used it one time. Sold it a year later. Haven't missed it since.

[Brian Holcombe]

I use a shoulder plane for shoulders. However, I do like undercutting for situations where the tenon is going to be pulled into place by a wedge, or draw-boring.

[Reinis Kanders]

Last weekend I did some tenons in soft pine and very soft white cedar and unintentionally ended up using Lowe's method. It worked fine as long as chisel was sharp. I previously had tried sawing to the shoulder line, but definitely liked this method better because shoulder scribe line was much better defined. My chisel was around 30 degrees, maybe 28. I also prefer splitting the tenon instead of sawing it, seems to be faster as long as grain cooperates. Paul Sellers has some good videos about it.

[ian maybury]

Guess it depends a lot on the type of wood. Cutting mortises for butt hinges in the edges of a marine ply cabinet (across the laminations/glue lines) last week almost instantly knocked the edge off the cheap CRV chisel i was using and led to the router being pulled out instead - with the chisel just being used to clean out corners.

I guess one big advantage of the chisel is that it at all times provides a clear view of what's happening at the cutting edge - not to mention a lot more manoeuvrability for undercutting tenons etc. You don't really see what you have under the plane until the cut is complete. It's do-able, but it tends to lead to a need to line up before you shoot, and to sneak up on a line using very fine cuts...

[Rob Luter]

I generally cut tenons on my table saw with a dado set. I use a shoulder plane for any fine tuning that is required.

[lowell holmes]

I use chisels on the shoulders and router plane to size the tenon.

I have a small shoulder plane, but I don't find much use for it.

[bridger berdel]

..... shallow angle on the chisel made a big difference..........I have duplicates for many size chisels, so I'm mulling sharpening a few just for paring. Maybe 25 degrees or a bit less?........:)



I have a tendency to grind bench chisels to lower and lower angles. it's probably an artifact of my freehand bench grinder technique. anyway, it tends to produce edges that are good for paring. eventually they reach the point of failure, chipping or folding, before they expire from abrasive wear. when that happens I steepen up the honed bevel a bit.... I guess the point is that for bench chisels I like to keep them near the low angle limit. this really highlights the difference in steels- some are stable at much lower angles than others.

recently I made a handle for and did some grinder work on a bevel edge socket chisel I picked up somewhere. it is a pretty much generic made in germany one bearing the dunlap logo, with about 3" or so of blade length left. I ground the body a bit thinner, reduced the lands to almost nothing and gave it a primary bevel of right about 10 degrees, and honed just a tiny bit more. so far so good, though it doesn't have too much use yet.

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