A new low in cabinetry...but still an improvement...and a question?

[Peter Quinn]

I'm doing a soup to nuts kitchen remodel for/with my BIL for my wife's sister. She bought a floor demo model kitchen for almost nothing, rebuild the whole room, we've reached the cabinet install phase. Did layout of the stock kitchen, how to fit the variety of parts she acquired into the available space in a meaningful way. Why do this? $$$$$, or lack there of, and desperate need of an updated kitchen. She has lived with something much worse than most of those DIY worst kitchen ever shows for too long.

So to make it all fit I have to modify a few boxes. Easy enough, I'm a cabinet maker. Uhh...what in the world is this stuff. They say in order to really understand a product you have to deconstruct it. 3/8" thermofoil particle board (like contact paper picture of wood on chip board), hot melt glue (yes, the rubbery kind like in a craft gun), some kind of weird staples that seem to come from inside the wood in a direction that feels impossible, and some corrugated triangular things that look like micro martial arts weapons...and lots of little dados for good measure. Like 1/8" dados. Locators? Place to put rubbery glue? You know how they say the glue is stronger than the wood? Well perhaps the designers of this particular product wanted to keep that true, the rubbery cement is just a little stronger than the chip board. Not strong...just stronger than the substrate. I needed to make one box narrower, one shallower. The shallow one was merely a pain, but done. I glued and stapled it back together for good measure, probably hold up the boxes around it...the narrower one......disintegrated. I really just needed the FF off of it to match the rest of the room, and that I got, but will be building a new box.

So.....Whats the worst construction you've encountered? For me its this. From material to methods, I can't imagine putting less into a box, yet its still seems sufficient. Just what is good enough?

[Peter Kelly]

I encountered an intersting corner base cabinet during a kitchen demo years ago. The back was made from something similar to shirt cardboard, thermofoiled on the "good" side. Deck and top were just raw extruded flakeboard, faceframe was fioled MDF, all stapled and hot glued together.

Ikea makes some pretty bizarre particleboard panels too. Mostly for their furniture, not so much with kitchen cabinets.

[Jerry Miner]

Reminds me of a pre-assembled cabinet one of my co-workers bought for his father's business. Wanted to "save money" so even though we build cabinets regularly, he bought this unit, which arrived packed in a cardboard box. Turned out the cardboard box was sturdier than the "cabinet".

When he cut the box open, the cabinet collapsed into pieces all over the shop floor. Thermo-foil on PB, hot glue, staples. Didn't survive transit to our shop. One of our guys spent half a day "re-enforcing" and "re-assembling."

[Brian W Smith]

OK,that was kind of funny in a pitiful sort of way.......

We all have our stories,some are just downright funny.But if you ever get a chance,talk/ask an old school plumber about some of their,off the record,horror stories.Think under sink exploits on new,units.

Best of luck with your installation.

[Jason Roehl]

We do a fair amount of painting in rental units. I've seen a LOT of this sh...uhh...tuff. The worst is that when it gets to looking a little worse for the wear, the landlord will want us to paint it. As a matter of fact, we'll be doing that today--painting a set of kitchen cabinets that would look much better in a burn pile. In the same rental house (mid-'70s National) yesterday, I went to prime the door between the kitchen and the garage, but noticed what looked like a buildup of something greasy around the knob. So I scraped it. The thermofoil of the door came with it, cleanly--a perfectly feathered edge where I scraped. Lipstick on a pig...

[Dan Blackshear]

1970's mobile home cabinets.

I live near a large lake and many of the more affordable "Lake Houses" are just mobile homes that have been made permanent by putting a real roof and exterior walls on them. They look like a stick built house on the outside but when you walk in it's a manufactured home. I recently got a call from a friend of the family about her mothers sink cabinet sinking into the floor. Long story short; pex style plumbing under the floor got damaged at some point and developed a tiny leak onto particle board subfloor. It had been leaking for at least a year (no joke, they thought the sink was leaking and had been trying to figure out where the water was coming from for over a year) and had gotten to the point that the linoleum was about all that was holding it together.

The cabinets were built-ins, and by built-ins I mean whoever made them stapled a 1-by frame to the wall, stapled 1-by side frames to that and stapled more pieces in to form the front door and drawer openings and then stapled a piece of wood paneling to the front and trimmed out the openings. Each joint had literally anywhere from 5 to 15 2" staples. On top of it all the countertop was 1/2" laminated particleboard stapled to the framework and waved more than a beauty queen in the homecoming parade. "Oh, and can you save the cabinets and countertop? We don't want to spend a lot of money." :eek:

[Mike Wilkins]

I will never forget the look on a lady's face, when I was asked to strip & refinish a dresser for her. I had to inform her that particleboard with a picture of wood on it cannot be refinished. She probably paid good money for it at one time, since furniture stores are not always truthful in their marketing.

[Jason Roehl]

I will never forget the look on a lady's face, when I was asked to strip & refinish a dresser for her. I had to inform her that particleboard with a picture of wood on it cannot be refinished. She probably paid good money for it at one time, since furniture stores are not always truthful in their marketing.

Yeah, I've had that argument before with a big box store employee: "It's oak." Me: "Um, no. It's fake." Him: "No, really! It's oak!" Me: (walks away shaking head)

[John TenEyck]

Most of those cabinets still serve their intended purpose for a good many years, which makes me laugh when folks here argue about whether pocket holes and screws are OK, or some other similar discussion. You have no clue what junk is until you get a look at this stuff. On the other hand, building kitchen (or bathroom) cabinets to last a hundred years is a fools errand since most will be torn out in less than 25. That is the prime reason you see "curb appeal" only on these cabinets; what you can't see is as cheap as possible.

John

[Phil Thien]

I've seen some terrible stick-built (on site) cabinets. The tragedy is the waste of otherwise very fine materials. I've disassembled some of the stuff from my house, and my daughter's, and the quality of the plywood and solid boards was top-notch. I've saved much of it. But the construction was a joke.

[Justin Ludwig]

I got a call to install cabinets exactly as you described. I had to be very careful screwing the uppers to the wall as the particle board wanted to just explode. I started pre-drilling the holes before screwing so it wouldn't crack.

I just met with a lady that wants roll-outs in her base cabinets in a cabinet. The cabinets are made of a 2x4 frame and skinned with T1-11 cedar siding, face nailed, very rustic (so much that I wouldn't even put siding on the exterior in this manner). Luckily, the frame is square and I don't foresee big problems getting the roll-outs installed. Funny thing is, she stated, "I love love love my cabinets and don't want to change anything but the base shelves." To each their own.

[Brian Holcombe]

Shabby-chic was an incredible marketing coup. Luckily it's on it's way out, for the most part.

[Peter Quinn]

I got a call to install cabinets exactly as you described. I had to be very careful screwing the uppers to the wall as the particle board wanted to just explode. I started pre-drilling the holes before screwing so it wouldn't crack.

I just met with a lady that wants roll-outs in her base cabinets in a cabinet. The cabinets are made of a 2x4 frame and skinned with T1-11 cedar siding, face nailed, very rustic (so much that I wouldn't even put siding on the exterior in this manner). Luckily, the frame is square and I don't foresee big problems getting the roll-outs installed. Funny thing is, she stated, "I love love love my cabinets and don't want to change anything but the base shelves." To each their own.


LOL, I'm just focusing on the lowers presently.....the uppers have me a little concerned. Is it wrong to PL the cabinets to the wall? I usually run 2 1/2" washer head GRK's or similar to hold uppers...but whats the point to run super screws into 3/8" chip board? Maybe I'll PL some cleats in for good measure? Or z clips?

[Rick Potter]

Kind of like Dan was saying.

I went to help out an elderly man from the church, who wanted a tall drawer put where a narrow cabinet door had been. Of course it was all PB and had gotten wet from being next to the dishwasher. The one thing I remember most was how the face frame for the cabinet was a sheet of photo finish PB, laid on it's side with the grain running side to side. Then they routed out the door and drawer openings in place, leaving the rounded corners. I have never seen a camper interior made as cheaply as this, and it was in a reasonably expensive condo on the nicer side of town.

I made it out of real oak, and told him I could not match his 'wood' perfectly. His eyes were bad, and he was happy.

Rick Potter

[Rich Engelhardt]

The one thing I remember most was how the face frame for the cabinet was a sheet of photo finish PB, laid on it's side with the grain running side to side. Then they routed out the door and drawer openings in place, leaving the rounded corners. I have never seen a camper interior made as cheaply as this, and it was in a reasonably expensive condo on the nicer side of town.
We had our house built in 1986 & that's exactly what we had for kitchen cabinets.
They held up pretty well though despite being pure garbage.
IIRC, we replaced them after 10/12 years & they were still fine.

[Peter Quinn]

Most of those cabinets still serve their intended purpose for a good many years, which makes me laugh when folks here argue about whether pocket holes and screws are OK, or some other similar discussion. You have no clue what junk is until you get a look at this stuff. On the other hand, building kitchen (or bathroom) cabinets to last a hundred years is a fools errand since most will be torn out in less than 25. That is the prime reason you see "curb appeal" only on these cabinets; what you can't see is as cheap as possible.

John

What you say rings painly true, but I feel there is still a place for reasonable quality custom cabinetry with classic details meant to last. Thermofoil? This stuff is really low grade, even at its best. My own kitchen is waiting because I find the stick built 1950's nailed to the wall cabinets preferable to the disposable RTA type thing I could afford presently in terms of time and materials. Ever been to the Vanderbuilt mansion in Newport RI? There is a set of QSWO butlers cabinets that are over 100 years old, just stunning. Your average person can't live like a Vanderbuilt....but imagine buying one quality kitchen for $15k in a lifetime or two rather than 3 $5000 kitchens plus installation + removal + renovation. It's my feeling the higher quality cabs may actually be cheaper over a lifetime assuming the rest of the space doesn't get trimmed out in trendy oddities like glass walls or metal mosaics that will quickly become out of trend artifacts of bad taste.

in the case in point I offered to build the cabinets for the cost of the hardware+plywood, I'm in a position to provide all solids for doors and frames for free....would have cost them about double....whopping $800 for a custom kitchen! Instead I'll probably instal this junk then wind up ripping it out when I'm 60....really looking forward to that!

[Bill Ryall]

I could go on at length about the pressboard-and-picture "executive desks" and cube farm work surfaces, but I won't. I finally told them NO. I will not even attempt to fix it again.
"But-but-but you are a furniture maker on the side!"
"I'll make you a deal. Go buy some real furniture, and I'll repair it as necessary. This stuff isn't furniture."

Fortunately, I have a good client who i have managed to teach the difference between pressboard CRAP, and quality furniture with quality materials and quality joinery. She now comes to me to build what she wants when she cant find it elsewhere. And she doesn't complain about the price differential between the (big box) crap and my stuff. She is also good about references and referrals as well.