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View Full Version : Truck costs are a much larger % of income..........



Larry Edgerton
10-14-2014, 8:37 AM
I just bought a new F150 this week. When I went into business twentysome years ago I bought a new F150 that was very similar, 1/2 ton, 2x4, 8'box, 6cyl. That truck cost me $11800. My new one had a sticker of $27800, but I got a $3000 rebate because I was trading in a Ranger, so $24800. In that same time period all of my other expenses have increase as much as 400%.

The problem is that when I went into business my rates were a bit high at $30 site, $45 shop. Today I am again a little high at the same rates. I have tried to raise them but get underbid by the skilsaw and hammer crowd, guys that are not carrying insurance, licences, etc.

Things are not looking so good for the working class.........

Larry

Jason Roehl
10-14-2014, 9:15 AM
The good news is that the new F150 should get quite a bit better mileage (50%-ish better) than the old one. (Never mind that gas is 3 times what it was 20 years ago...)

I've actually sold jobs because my rate was higher than my competition. It doesn't happen all the time, but I emphasize my quality, longevity in business, use of quality materials, etc. over their likely fly-by-night pricing or lack of experience and quality.

But, yeah, most people have no clue what it costs to be in the trades and still put food on the table. I still run into people who think $10/hr would be fair to pay a self-employed painter (who, of course, maintains his own vehicle, tools, insurance, etc.).

Tom Leftley
10-14-2014, 9:16 AM
If I read your post correctly, you went into business some twenty years ago and bought a new truck at that time.
Today the price of the truck has doubled.
Your rates were $30 and $45 hour then and they are still at that same rate today.

I am confused about your message.
Is your post concerning the vehicle cost or is it aimed at competing with unlicensed, uninsured competition?
Perhaps you could reword it and clarify it a little?

Jerry Thompson
10-14-2014, 9:19 AM
Using the rule of 72 to measure inflation the price of the F-150 18 years ago was around $23,400. We all forget how money become diluted with time.

David Weaver
10-14-2014, 10:24 AM
I paid two guys (local contractors who work with a nephew and who have been doing what they're doing for 30 years) a bit more than the going rate to convert a room on my house last year. I'd rather have less work done and get it done the way I want it to be done. They did a tight job and were flexible with what I wanted.

I gather most people don't do that, though. They have a loyal client list and we hear (since they're in the neighborhood) from lowest price buyers about how they're not competitive. They are when you factor in what they actually do.

I'm in a more populated area, though.

It sounds like the value of work is more of a problem than the cost of the truck. In 1985, my mother paid $16,500 for a very plain cloth seated crown victoria. I remember seeing the sticker as a kid. Using CPI (which isn't quite as good of a measure as GDP deflator, but it's a general idea), the same car would cost $36,500. Nobody would pay that for the same car now (not that there aren't comparable V8 cars for that price, but my mothers car had cloth seats, radio with no tape, A/C and power windows and locks and nothing else in it.

I'd imagine that truck dollar for dollar is a pretty good deal at $23k, but the fact that it's a larger piece relative to your rates is painful. the next generation that will be your customers doesn't care about quality. They want the biggest thing they can get for the same amount of money, so if it's made of drywall with MDF trim and gaps, no problem, as long as it's big and painted the right color.

Mark Bolton
10-14-2014, 10:58 AM
Your post reads almost identical to my timeline. I bought a brand new Chevy 1500 2wd, v8, extra cab, in 89 for 11K+. I ran that truck until I couldnt run it any longer (300k miles and was only parked because a location change required 4wd) while all the other guys I knew were buying and outfitting new trucks left and right. I feel like my business at the moment (I am pretty much down to a one man show with a combination of field and shop work but this will hopefully be my last year of major field work) is doing about all it can do with me wearing all the hats and I simply couldnt fathom a payment on a new vehicle right now. Perhaps thats mainly because I dread the thought of a payment at all but still.

The rule of 72 thing, to me at least, is hogwash. Same income, less cost for goods = more disposable income that can be allocated to enjoying life, savings, retirement, and so on. Most all in the trades that I speak with are in the exact same boat. They were not living like fat cats "back in the day" they were just doing well. Now, living and operating on the exact same dollars (gross) as 20+ years ago, everything has gone up as well as all the things being added in that werent there 20-30 years ago. Cell phones, internet service (and the need for moderately fast service at that), materials, and so on.

There is a major push in my area for moving more people into the trades and the technical trades but I just dont see the dollars there to support what people need (some may say want) today.

Its a hard subject for me in that I have had feelers out for 20 years for the young people who are willing to commit to something that could provide them a long life doing something really rewarding if they are passionate and enjoy the work. But on the flip side I just dont think the dollars are there to keep them.

David Weaver
10-14-2014, 11:04 AM
It isn't about what people need, it's about what people want. I have no idea how people who have retail jobs afford a phone payment that I wouldn't make by discretion (stuff like a verizon iphone). People expect a business to have cell phone access now, but there are phone plans that people could use with non- smart phones that are only about $20 a month. Even something like republic is only $25 with data and text. And the cable seems to be a right for everyone these days, too. Same as the phones, I have no idea why people feel entitled to $100 a month of cable if it's not really in their budget.

The rule of 72 is fairly accurate. It's a numerical rule, it doesn't put conditions on how the increase occurs. It does, though, lose some accuracy at very low interest/inflation rates.

At any rate, the economy that created the environment 25 years ago was false growth, and it was based on private borrowing. It may not be current numbers that are unfair, it may be that the numbers back then were too generous.

Mark Bolton
10-14-2014, 11:05 AM
The good news is that the new F150 should get quite a bit better mileage (50%-ish better) than the old one. (Never mind that gas is 3 times what it was 20 years ago...)

I've actually sold jobs because my rate was higher than my competition. It doesn't happen all the time, but I emphasize my quality, longevity in business, use of quality materials, etc. over their likely fly-by-night pricing or lack of experience and quality.

But, yeah, most people have no clue what it costs to be in the trades and still put food on the table. I still run into people who think $10/hr would be fair to pay a self-employed painter (who, of course, maintains his own vehicle, tools, insurance, etc.).

And no offense at all Jason but you are in one of the hardest trades, perhaps only equaled by landscaping or lawn service, in the eyes of the consumer. I have spent my entire career trying to educate customers on quality paint and finish but its astounding that even the ones who have openly espoused how much they loved their quality paint job, with quality paint, and how long it lasted, will in an instant say "well cheap paint is fine, just slap it up". Its just a constant process of education and sadly the customer base that is willing to even hear the pitch is ever shrinking.

I have been reading on commercial forums that there is a buzz about things coming back a bit and that high end will be leading the comeback. I personally just dont see it but Im not in any of the major markets to even have an idea.

Its a tough situation in my opinion and I have been in the process of doing much of what I think Larry has been and thats streamlining, getting to a cash basis (no debt/mortgages/high rents), "all under one roof" so to speak. The sad part about that is it puts you in a position to settle for ever lower rates for your work because of the lower overhead but I do wonder if those type operations will be the ones to make it through the long haul.

David Weaver
10-14-2014, 11:35 AM
There's a lot of commercial work here. I've got no clue about residential because my neighborhood isn't an "it" neighborhood where people take out big loans and spend big bucks.

As far as the ones who talk about a quality paint job, value is the customers choice. If customers want inexpensive paint, then it sounds like you want to serve that market. I buy quality paint, my dad doesn't, and neither does FIL. both would rather put up 5 coats of behr to cover the same as two coats of sherwin williams. Their money is still green for things that they won't paint, though.

Every business sees that, including the types that work in offices - customer might want the best but they choose otherwise when the numbers show up.

Malcolm Schweizer
10-14-2014, 12:09 PM
I have always driven classic cars, moslty air cooled VW's but also Willys Jeeps, and a '57 Chevy. I recently broke down and bought two new(er) Jeeps at a government auction for 1/2 the blue book. Actually I bought three, and sold one for double what I paid, so ultimately I got two Jeeps for $6500 total all said and done, with 6500 miles on one, 7000 on the other. (US Customs vehicles that they only used to drive around the airport.)

I say all of the above to set up this humorous story- I have no clue what new cars cost. I was talking with a friend who gets a car stipend at work, and he is required to own a car 3 years old or less to get the stipend. I said, "Wow, I couldn't buy a $20,000 car every three years even with the stipend." He laughed so hard he almost cried. WHAT???? $20k will buy a new car, right? Apparently I have no clue about new car prices. So I asked how much his Volvo cost, and almost died: $58,000!!!! ACK!!!! Okay, so that's a Volvo, so a new reasonable American car- $25k? He was still laughing at me. Wow. I really had no clue. He apologized for laughing and I said, "No, it's okay, I am laughing too. I never realized how out of touch with modern car prices I was."

Anyway, I would buy a new-ish car maybe a year or two old, and save a ton over what you'd pay for brand new. When you drive it away it is immediately worth less. Take my advice with a grain of salt (see above) but that's my thought- especially if it is a work truck.

Mark Bolton
10-14-2014, 12:14 PM
It isn't about what people need, it's about what people want. I have no idea how people who have retail jobs afford a phone payment that I wouldn't make by discretion (stuff like a verizon iphone). People expect a business to have cell phone access now, but there are phone plans that people could use with non- smart phones that are only about $20 a month. Even something like republic is only $25 with data and text. And the cable seems to be a right for everyone these days, too. Same as the phones, I have no idea why people feel entitled to $100 a month of cable if it's not really in their budget.

The rule of 72 is fairly accurate. It's a numerical rule, it doesn't put conditions on how the increase occurs. It does, though, lose some accuracy at very low interest/inflation rates.

At any rate, the economy that created the environment 25 years ago was false growth, and it was based on private borrowing. It may not be current numbers that are unfair, it may be that the numbers back then were too generous.

I agree with you completely about the need/want factor. That said, I feel our society almost nearly as a whole has bred a generation of children where the vast majority of them simply know no bounds with regards to needs and wants. Adults as well but I opt to focus on the future, the adults are about lost at this point. Their every want and desire has been met from the get go because for whatever reason parents are so unwilling to see their children do with out anything and everything they desire. This is what I was speaking of with regards to the young workforce today. I have had numerous young people work for me. Still in trade school on co-op programs, fresh out of trade school, in their 20's, and any one of them could have the world by the ****s if they would just tightened their belt, put their head down, and go. But it just doesnt happen. As a young person I'd have basically killed a man for a 20 dollar bill (meaning some of the jobs I did for 20 bucks were worth hundreds if not more) and that 20 dollar bill (which rule of 72 or not) I will argue is more valuable than ever at that scale because they are so hard to come by, and they simply see no value in it because they have been provided everything without much effort of their own.

Im not on a kid/youth bashing thing here honestly. I truly feel its a paradigm shift in the way children have been parented for the last 20 plus years of semi-affluence. They are going to have a hard time but as a reply in another thread stated, its always best, no matter how hard, to let them (and adults as well) suffer the consequences as opposed to trying to take those consequences away from them to protect them.

I really dont agree about the rates of 20+ being out of line. I was not living high off the hog then, and Im not living high off the hog now. Virtually every customer I work for likely makes substantially more than me annually and I am not in a ritzy area.

The pay is the same, and the dollar is worth less because everything has gone up. It can be number crunched any way fit but 45/hr then and now is the same. About 80k gross into your business if your able to take vacations, holidays, and work full weeks every week. That is to say if your lucky. Ive rarely been in the vacation world. So thats the same gross then as it is now. The truck costs 2.5x, the fuel costs 3x, tires 2-3x, batteries and maintenance 4-5x, and so on, and so on. Im just the villiage idiot but I dont need any rule of 72 to see that there is far less left over from my gross that matches 3 decades ago. Then we go to food, electric, heat, taxes, and so on. They are all the same.

Mark Bolton
10-14-2014, 12:27 PM
I have always driven classic cars, moslty air cooled VW's but also Willys Jeeps, and a '57 Chevy. I recently broke down and bought two new(er) Jeeps at a government auction for 1/2 the blue book. Actually I bought three, and sold one for double what I paid, so ultimately I got two Jeeps for $6500 total all said and done, with 6500 miles on one, 7000 on the other. (US Customs vehicles that they only used to drive around the airport.)

I say all of the above to set up this humorous story- I have no clue what new cars cost. I was talking with a friend who gets a car stipend at work, and he is required to own a car 3 years old or less to get the stipend. I said, "Wow, I couldn't buy a $20,000 car every three years even with the stipend." He laughed so hard he almost cried. WHAT???? $20k will buy a new car, right? Apparently I have no clue about new car prices. So I asked how much his Volvo cost, and almost died: $58,000!!!! ACK!!!! Okay, so that's a Volvo, so a new reasonable American car- $25k? He was still laughing at me. Wow. I really had no clue. He apologized for laughing and I said, "No, it's okay, I am laughing too. I never realized how out of touch with modern car prices I was."

Anyway, I would buy a new-ish car maybe a year or two old, and save a ton over what you'd pay for brand new. When you drive it away it is immediately worth less. Take my advice with a grain of salt (see above) but that's my thought- especially if it is a work truck.

Much the same boat here. My girlfriend gets a kick out of going clothes shopping with me and we walk in a sporting goods store and I see an underarmor shirt and I say man, I cant believe people pay like 40-50 bucks for a shirt. She has the same reaction as your friend telling me "that shirt probably costs 80-100 dollars, look at the tag!!". I look and see 85.00 or something and proceed to soil my underpants.

I am aware of truck prices only because several locals tell me what they have paid. When I hear of people buying brand new extended/quad/4 door pickups, 4wd, possibly diesel, and paying 50-60-70k I am just flabberghasted. And of course many of them rarely if ever see a pebble or a sheet of anything in the bed. Its just crazy, but like the ol' John Prine song "Thats the way the world go round".

I too am a fan of particular year jeeps and grand cherokee's. Some of them are just bullet proof and sherman tanks. They will run forever. That said, maintaining older vehicles is a costly endeavor at times and when you have to factor that cost, and your man hours, into the cost of your business for me at least it can get a little trying. Its not to say having a new vehicle guarantee's you reliability, lemons are everywhere, but thats always the hope.

I for some reason have a hard time getting my head around paying 20-30k for a pre-owned car. Its just a personal hangup. I guess for some reason I always think of being at the ends of the spectrum. 10K or less and I work on it, or I happen to be on a good streak and buy new. I'd imagine Im overlooking the sweetspot in the middle there somewhere. I just cant see many average cars being worth 30-40-50k.

Larry Edgerton
10-14-2014, 12:29 PM
Your post reads almost identical to my timeline. I bought a brand new Chevy 1500 2wd, v8, extra cab, in 89 for 11K+. I ran that truck until I couldnt run it any longer (300k miles and was only parked because a location change required 4wd) while all the other guys I knew were buying and outfitting new trucks left and right. I feel like my business at the moment (I am pretty much down to a one man show with a combination of field and shop work but this will hopefully be my last year of major field work) is doing about all it can do with me wearing all the hats and I simply couldnt fathom a payment on a new vehicle right now. Perhaps thats mainly because I dread the thought of a payment at all but still.

The rule of 72 thing, to me at least, is hogwash. Same income, less cost for goods = more disposable income that can be allocated to enjoying life, savings, retirement, and so on. Most all in the trades that I speak with are in the exact same boat. They were not living like fat cats "back in the day" they were just doing well. Now, living and operating on the exact same dollars (gross) as 20+ years ago, everything has gone up as well as all the things being added in that werent there 20-30 years ago. Cell phones, internet service (and the need for moderately fast service at that), materials, and so on.

There is a major push in my area for moving more people into the trades and the technical trades but I just dont see the dollars there to support what people need (some may say want) today.

Its a hard subject for me in that I have had feelers out for 20 years for the young people who are willing to commit to something that could provide them a long life doing something really rewarding if they are passionate and enjoy the work. But on the flip side I just dont think the dollars are there to keep them.

That is about right for me as well. I the bubble days I bought and paid for a large commercial building, which I sold a couple of years ago because I could no longer justify the $20K+ annual cost of owning it, even with no payments. My house and shop are on one property now, paid for. I sold my old home at a loss just to make life simple because the market shows no sign of coming back here. There is no work in my area so I am having to range farther from home than I like, hence the need for dependable transportation that is easy on fuel. The Ranger was an experiment to see if I could get by with a small truck in the 25-30mpg range. It was just too small, but for 72,000 miles it sort of did the job. I had a large older truck for bigger loads, but when you figure the economics of two trucks, it just does not work out. I am losing about 5mpg with the new truck, but gaining a lot of capability and have no need for the second truck. It hurt, but I paid cash.

Mark, I wish I could keep a truck around for that long, but somewhere around 150K the rust starts to interrupt that plan. Can't pull into the kind of places I work on with a rustbucket, just will not fly. Now if I lived down where you are...........

It would be hard for a young guy starting out that is wanting to do work that will be restored rather than remodeled. People just don't seem to care about their homes the same way, at least the generations younger than us, with a few exceptions of course. And lets face it Mark, the up and coming generations do not want to hire guys our age. We are yesterdays news, no matter what we have to offer. My customer base is pretty much the same generation that I started out with, again with a few exceptions. Problem is they are all retiring, and you know how people get when they retire. Lets just say "frugal".

This may be my last truck, and I did not want to be stuck with the one I had, so I bit the bullet. Its a decision that I have been arguing with myself about for a couple of months. Hate spending money on such a poor investment.

Larry

Larry Edgerton
10-14-2014, 12:44 PM
I have always driven classic cars, moslty air cooled VW's but also Willys Jeeps, and a '57 Chevy. I recently broke down and bought two new(er) Jeeps at a government auction for 1/2 the blue book. Actually I bought three, and sold one for double what I paid, so ultimately I got two Jeeps for $6500 total all said and done, with 6500 miles on one, 7000 on the other. (US Customs vehicles that they only used to drive around the airport.)

I say all of the above to set up this humorous story- I have no clue what new cars cost. I was talking with a friend who gets a car stipend at work, and he is required to own a car 3 years old or less to get the stipend. I said, "Wow, I couldn't buy a $20,000 car every three years even with the stipend." He laughed so hard he almost cried. WHAT???? $20k will buy a new car, right? Apparently I have no clue about new car prices. So I asked how much his Volvo cost, and almost died: $58,000!!!! ACK!!!! Okay, so that's a Volvo, so a new reasonable American car- $25k? He was still laughing at me. Wow. I really had no clue. He apologized for laughing and I said, "No, it's okay, I am laughing too. I never realized how out of touch with modern car prices I was."

Anyway, I would buy a new-ish car maybe a year or two old, and save a ton over what you'd pay for brand new. When you drive it away it is immediately worth less. Take my advice with a grain of salt (see above) but that's my thought- especially if it is a work truck.

The prices that used work trucks are bringing actually make a new one with a warranty a better deal up here. We only have about six years before the salt gets them so if I buy one three years old for 50% of new cost I am getting the worst half of the miles for the same money. Keep in mind the truck I bought is as cheap as they get. Crank windows and all. I used to go South to get one but the increased expenses of cross country travel have taken the shine off of that prospect. I actually was looking at a low mile used one in Texas, but when all was said and done new was cheaper and a lot less headache. I drive over 30K miles a year currently, but hope to change that soon and stay closer to home.

Larry

Mark Bolton
10-14-2014, 1:00 PM
That is about right for me as well. I the bubble days I bought and paid for a large commercial building, which I sold a couple of years ago because I could no longer justify the $20K+ annual cost of owning it, even with no payments. My house and shop are on one property now, paid for. I sold my old home at a loss just to make life simple because the market shows no sign of coming back here. There is no work in my area so I am having to range farther from home than I like, hence the need for dependable transportation that is easy on fuel. The Ranger was an experiment to see if I could get by with a small truck in the 25-30mpg range. It was just too small, but for 72,000 miles it sort of did the job. I had a large older truck for bigger loads, but when you figure the economics of two trucks, it just does not work out. I am losing about 5mpg with the new truck, but gaining a lot of capability and have no need for the second truck. It hurt, but I paid cash.

Mark, I wish I could keep a truck around for that long, but somewhere around 150K the rust starts to interrupt that plan. Can't pull into the kind of places I work on with a rustbucket, just will not fly. Now if I lived down where you are...........

It would be hard for a young guy starting out that is wanting to do work that will be restored rather than remodeled. People just don't seem to care about their homes the same way, at least the generations younger than us, with a few exceptions of course. And lets face it Mark, the up and coming generations do not want to hire guys our age. We are yesterdays news, no matter what we have to offer. My customer base is pretty much the same generation that I started out with, again with a few exceptions. Problem is they are all retiring, and you know how people get when they retire. Lets just say "frugal".

This may be my last truck, and I did not want to be stuck with the one I had, so I bit the bullet. Its a decision that I have been arguing with myself about for a couple of months. Hate spending money on such a poor investment.

Larry


No dispute here. I have a long frame 1 ton dump with behind the cab utility box sitting in front of my shop right now that unless its brutally necessary it never moves. Running a vehicle daily that gets more than 3x the mileage has saved me more money than I can imagine. Being in a rural/remote area helps and hurts. I understand what your saying about rolling into a high end home with a jalopy (something I have never run but could easily get away with here) is not good business sense. That said, perhaps you could cultivate the eccentric, crazy, talk to the clouds type, craftsman who does visionary work but shows up with an old horse drawn wagon and a couple mules.. :D The detractor (and it sounds like your suffering this) is anything and everything is a minimum of an hour away. It racks up the miles for sure. Even with that my annual fuel costs are nothing that brings me a ton of joy when I cut them by a hefty percentage.

Its hard. There is no second guessing that.

I have often thought about the prospects away from this business and they are not bright by any means. I think there are some chances, but more than likely I would have to be willing to stay away for long periods for lucrative work. I think the harder factor, and I dont mean this to sound romantic, is "caging the lion". After so many years out in the open it would be a major adjustment to go into the box. That said, it might be comforting.

David Weaver
10-14-2014, 1:27 PM
Im just the villiage idiot but I dont need any rule of 72 to see that there is far less left over from my gross that matches 3 decades ago. Then we go to food, electric, heat, taxes, and so on. They are all the same.

There are things people did in the 1980s that I don't see many people doing now. as a kid, we turned our heat off at night for a 6 hour span. If you woke up during that time, tough. We didn't have air conditioning, neither did half of our vehicles (my mother's cars had it, but dad's sure didn't), we didn't go to the doctor unless something was really wrong, we watched network TV, most of my clothes came from yard sales, we got a lot of food in black and white boxes (if you want to talk about something that's definitely improved - generic and store brand food is head and shoulders above). The farthest we ever went for vacation was 4 hours. Kids did not get unscheduled presents back then, either. If you did, it was only for milestone items like learning to ride a bike, but you might have to wait until christmas or birthday to get one.

My parents had more nominal income than I do (that's without adjusting for inflation) and that's how we lived. They had more because both of them worked, and they also worked part time in their off hours.

Time has been less kind to tradesmen and dealer mechanics, but I also don't remember anyone back then working for $45 an hour. We had a master plasterer for the park service (a restoration plasterer, the finest plasterer I've ever seen) redo some of the plaster in our house on his off hours for $14 an hour, which is what the park service paid him on the clock. The plumber's service fee back then was $30 to come out (this is central PA).

I think if people were willing to live on what we lived on back in the 1980s (in terms of items and gadgets, etc, buying used clothes, etc) you could live awfully well.

My grandparents' habits made my parents look like high rollers. They had 7 watt incandescent bulbs in some of their fixtures.

Anyway, the other thing that's been hard on tradesmen is that nobody keeps anything. When's the last time you had a TV repair guy come out? We used to have one out every couple of years at least, to fix one of the TVs in the house (one of which cost $770 in 1975, which is probably about equivalent to $2k now - that was a HUGE deal to my parents to spend that kind of money).

What I'm getting to is that I don't think the whole picture is told just by comparing a flat tradesman rate, unless you buy exactly the same basket of goods. This discussion can go many ways, but talking about it doesn't make it any different. Here in the burbs I can't see many of the well maintained women ever living like my parents did, despite their inflation adjusted income not being nearly what my parents' was.

David Weaver
10-14-2014, 1:36 PM
Here's a little something to temper the discussion - the SSI's national average wage index:

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html

If we look at 25 years ago. In 25 years, the average wage has a little more than doubled.

So the problem, I guess, is that a more clearly definable issue is that some occupations haven't kept up with inflation, but the average has. That would suggest changing occupations, I guess. If anyone was making $45 an hour 20-25 years ago, they were multiples of the average wage, but a lot of other folks didn't have that luxury.

What sticks out in my mind is things that are cheaper now, too, because of overseas manufacturing. A pair of levis jeans when i was a kid was $30. That was a princely sum in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Now those jeans are made overseas, and despite the average wage doubling or more, you can find jeans cheaper than that. They might not be quite as good, but they're way more than half as good. Those $30 jeans pretty readily got holes in the knees and at the pockets, etc.

Shoes - same thing. A pair of decent shoes was $50 back then. I can still get a pair of decent imported shoes or sneakers for $50. My 40 inch TV was less in nominal dollars than my parents' TV was in 1975. I expect it will probably last about as long, and it uses less electricity and gets more channels without cable (I don't have cable TV).

The whole picture is a lot more mixed. I'd love to do a survey of our lifestyles as kids vs. what we do now. I'm less well off than my parents, but I live better, and so do my kids. They get to do 10x as much as i ever did. I'll bet a lot of us who think that we're pretty reasonable with money would find that we weren't close to as good as our parents and grandparents were with theirs, and we don't work any harder. It's across all generations, too, there are people retiring at 70 now (and not just a few) who still have mortgages on their houses and credit card debt.

Mark Bolton
10-14-2014, 2:19 PM
Here in the burbs I can't see many of the well maintained women ever living like my parents did, despite their inflation adjusted income not being nearly what my parents' was.

This is my point.

I agree fully that if you can scale back things get easier but I dont think in any way they compare to the rates of 20-30 years ago. Im not trying to get into a jousting match here but I have become quite adept at living a very modest live. I have become a pretty good appliance repairman diagnosing refrigerator defrost heaters, timers, TV components, stove and range components, all because when you DO call the repair man the cost for the repair, with the diagnostic, puts the repair at a total loss. Again, the cost of everything going up (and the income staying flat).

Your point of seeing the well maintained woman living like your folks is exactly what I am talking about. I too lived in a house where we were possibly the last in our area to get cable TV. I know for a fact we were the last in our area to ever have a microwave or any kitchen appliance like that. My mother was able to get electric bills to a level so low that to this very day I have know logical idea of how it was even possible. I dont think I ever knew AC in a car until I had moved out of the house and my mother bought a new car and suddenly there was this cool refreshing air blowing out of the vents and the windows were up!! We did have a fossilized window rattler AC unit that weighed about 900 lbs and would tack blankets up over the cased openings out of the living room just to keep that room (where the tv was) cool. In later years that AC unit moved to my mothers bedroom because she of course had to work.

In my personal life, I live about as close to a zero carbon footprint as I think you can reasonably while being in business. That said, the mere cost of "breathing air" now is far far greater than ever before and yet the wages are flat. I just had a recent conversation with an older woman (perhaps close to 70) who is on SS and she commented endlessly that her core expenses (no mortgage, no car payment, nothing), what I call her "nut", was higher than she had ever known in her 70 years. Not a single payment and her total annual expenses just for a frugal senior living alone were hefty. Im well aware of this myself because at 46 I am in the same position of being on a total cash basis. I owe _nothing_ but I have my business and its associated expenses. With that, Id say I could barely cover my annual overhead (just to stay alive) on a 15/hr job. My only vices are a cell phone bill and the additional property of the business.

When I was in my twenties I had friends that seemed rich who made 600/wk (gross). Had apartments and cars, lived, did some stuff here and there. That was good money. Now, you'd be lucky to make it as a hunky living out on your own if you were bringing home 350/wk.

I think its realistic for those of us who "saw" such a life to be able to retreat to it at some level if the need, or even desire, arises. But my point is we have a generation who has never even been exposed to the fuzz on the edge of the peach with regards to living a realistic/frugal life or perhaps just a life commensurate with your earning potential. But beyond that, the earning potential is flat.

Mark Bolton
10-14-2014, 2:33 PM
Here's a little something to temper the discussion - the SSI's national average wage index:

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html

If we look at 25 years ago. In 25 years, the average wage has a little more than doubled.

So the problem, I guess, is that a more clearly definable issue is that some occupations haven't kept up with inflation, but the average has. That would suggest changing occupations, I guess.

I would severely question how those "averages" are affected over a range of income brackets. To lump all the income into a single pile is grossly unfair when you have a certain percentage of the population making ungodly sums of money. How does bill gates' 79 billion dollar net worth skew the social security averages? And the many many more behind him.

Always the skeptic but It would be interesting to see the averages for 15-50k salaries or see it broken down into some sub catagories.

Your Levi's jeans is a perfect example of things going up. The levi's jeans my mother bought when I was a child lasted. They were heavier, thicker, well made. I would get a pair or two a year if I was lucky. We had a store called Maurice the pants man that would run specials at back to school. Now you go to sears, target, and buy a pair of levis? I can blow a pair out in a month. They may cost 19.99 or 29.99 but Im going to buy 4-6-10 pair a year. Either that or I am going to have 10 pair in my closet to "spread the wear". I NEVER remember a time having 10 pair of jeans in my closet as a kid. I will guarantee you right now that I have more than ten pair of target/sears jeans that are all in a state of falling apart. If I only had two pair Id be walking around in my BVD's which are also falling apart sooner than ever.

Shoes in my world have gone through the roof. When I was a kid we would buy a pair of 50 dollar timberlands or something and they would last you a year or two. Now a pair of timberlands is like wearing socks to work. A decent pair of hard working work boots or equivalent shoes that will last will cost you at least 150 bucks if not closer to 200. A good pair of Georgia or Redwing workboots will run 200 bucks any day of the week. If you work them every day you may beat a year, two at best.

Appliances your dead on right. Its unreal how cheap appliances are now. To be able to buy a 23" flat screen monitor for 100 bucks is mind blowing. I recently threw out a 31" 16:9 tube type tv that was great when I bought it, took a crane to move it, and bought a much large flat screen that a 9 year old girl could carry for less money. Appliances, computers, kitchen geegaws, for sure. cheaper.

I just cant buy the argument that inflation or not, the "air" we breath is more expensive today in comparison to our incomes.

David Weaver
10-14-2014, 2:44 PM
I think you summed it up pretty well with appliance repair, I think that's probably the issue. Nobody repairs or keeps things any longer (I know nobody is a bit of an exaggeration). But I remember when something really had to be dead as a doornail before you'd haul it down to the junkyard for scrap (those junkyards have disappeared, too, as townships don't want them and figure out a way to get them out).

I am also in a profession that was a lot easier to make it in 15 years ago, but the public doesn't value it as much, and that's just the way it goes. It's going to take sales ability in a few years just to do the work, it gets a little more competitive every year, and then I'm out.

I know plenty of people, however, who do very well salary-wise because they have good soft skills that I don't have, and frankly don't have any interest in practicing on a daily basis, anyway.

The national avg. wage indices don't hold steady for no career movement, so I can't apply them to my career (salary for an experienced person in my role hasn't done much in the last 15 years, and the top of the pay scale that existed 15 years ago doesn't even exist now, even without adjusting for inflation).

(side comment about the stinginess, we never made a long distance call and if you did, you were in trouble when the phone bill came. And as far as the electric bill, my parents didn't, and still don't, leave lights on unless someone absolutely needs them. My dad's favorite term is "lit up like a hotel" when he comes to our house. He uses only incandescent bulbs and I'm sure he still spends less on lighting than I do (i have no incandescent bulbs except in the oven). What can someone pick up on today to try to avoid being flat salaried over time? I don't know, but I could list a myriad of jobs that are just as you're describing yours to be and probably find just as many that have increased at the rate or higher than the NAW index. Maybe teachers and surgeons or endodontists or something.

I'll bet the master plasterers at the park service get a lot more than $14 an hour now, but have no clue. the guy who did my parents' plaster work left us with a couple of rooms that still have no cracks after decades.

Larry Edgerton
10-14-2014, 2:51 PM
David, I typed a very long reply, and then it disapeared so here is the short version.

1300 sq ft of extremely efficient house.
Both my wife and I work full time.
Both cars simple base models.
Very basic phones.
No TV at all, none.
Big garden
No toys
No vacations for the last 6 years
We do not dine out often, usually once a month when I get paid.

We do fairly well, and we are not going behind but not really going ahead either. I can see the time when what we make will not be enough, even with no debt. I am preparing for that time and continually looking for ways to trim costs.

My concern is not so much for me, I am a survivor, but instead for the trudgers if you will that do not have it in their makeup to be anything else. And, I worry about those that are lazy wanting to take what I have when the reality of our politically created handout society comes home to roost. This is not a political statement, just an observation. Government supplied index figures do not mean a thing to me as I do not believe them. It is politically expedient for whoever is in power at the moment to manipulate them in their favor. I know the real costs, I am paying for every thing I have with the sweat of my brow.

Larry

David Weaver
10-14-2014, 2:59 PM
I think some of those trudgers will figure out that they want to do something else, and others, as you say, will go to handouts.

I don't know what the answer is. My job isn't going to take me to retirement, it might not even take me through the end of next year. I have no clue if I'm going to stick it out and try to get another job in the same industry or if I'm going to try to go elsewhere. I hope something comes up and changes, but if it doesn't, I'll have to figure it out. That's just the way it is. Whatever it is, I'm sure I'll take a pay cut, and my wife will probably have to go back to work earlier than we were hoping.

I don't have a great answer for all of it, either, but for someone willing to be swift and do whatever it takes to make money (which often includes moving and working more than full time), there's plenty of opportunity. I see the new rosy faced kids coming into my profession, and they are far more flexible than my generation was coming in, and my generation was much more flexible than the one before. It's up to us to figure if we're going to cut back or figure out what we have to do to not cut back. For me, that would probably be something that involved schmoozing and I don't have the disposition for it, so you, me and everyone else will have to make our decisions.

We're reaping the reward of existing in a society where the rest of the world is picking up steam economically and we're not doing anything more than we were before, and living in a society where the last 30 years just have people borrowing and borrowing, etc, and thinking about how they'll come up with the money for payments some other time.

We all thought the late 90s were fantastic because of the eased credit, but it was a fake situation. Sure, it shows up as economic activity when people take a loan and spend the money, but that has to be paid back sometime, and as a society we're still living beyond our means, even if some of us are not.

(my last car was 18.5K - new - cheaper than my first car, and 10k cheaper than the car I got before. it's 6 years old now and our second car is approaching 11. Things are a lot different for me than I thought they'd be, but I still have it pretty good. If I have to move to find work, I'll move, I guess).

David Weaver
10-14-2014, 3:02 PM
Random factoid as I'm gradually remembering what my parents paid various people over the years. I remember them getting their sidewalk redone around 1990, and the concrete finishers that were working the job told us they got paid $7 an hour to do the work (they were career guys - local guys in the 40s).

The next concrete work they got done 20+ years later was done by a couple of guys from mexico, who were working for a local company. They did the job in 34 hours, overnight. How do you compete with that? Dad said one of the guys left the site in the middle of the night to get food and bring it back, but that was it. That was a quoted job, I'm sure they got paid more than $7 an hour but I don't know how much.

Jerry Thompson
10-14-2014, 3:04 PM
Ah yes Larry. I just love the inflation figures thrown at us. About all of the items measured are not the ones relevant to day to day living expenses. The basics are food, clothing and shelter. Then there are "Seasonal Adjustments?" There is a thumb on the scale there also. I am with you, I know that it takes a lot more to live on than they want me to believe. This is not political it is reality.

David Weaver
10-14-2014, 3:07 PM
I'd imagine those inflation figures are used when pricing TIPS (inflation indexed), social security pay, etc. There's definitely incentive to keep things out of the "basket".

Mark Bolton
10-14-2014, 3:10 PM
My dad's favorite term is "lit up like a hotel" when he comes to our house.


Now that, I literally laughed out loud for a good bit. Still chuckling as I write this.


I think its true that moving away from the jobs that are flat makes the most sense. And one would think that demand would increase, compensation would rise, and the cycle would start again. Who knows

I can completely associate with your "soft skills" comment. I am personally in an area where someone who could wrap their head around the business side of what I do, and not really care so much, could make a fortune. It doesnt mean they are less of a person or that I am better "because" I care more, but rather, get your head out of it a bit and focus on the books, profitability, making money, delivering what the customer asks for regardless of whether you agree with it or not, and so on. Be less passionate. I honestly just dont think I am able to do that on mass but I am to an extent. Or perhaps I am not able to do that on my own dime so to speak. Maybe if I were working for another company or a larger firm and you present the options to your potential customer and they pick crap, you deliver crap, you make your xx% on that crap, you deposit that in your bank, and you go to bed. Thats never been the way it works in my world. My customer picks crap, I tell them they are picking crap, they say crap is what they want, I resist, they demand, I say **** it, and outline it in the contract to protect myself, and then when the job is done they call me and say "why did you let me pick crap". That process is simplified I guess as scale goes up an customers realize they are responsible for their actions. They dont go back to Lowes or Home Depot to complain about the cheap junk they chose to save a buck, but they will to a smaller guy.

Its a deep well. Consumer mindset is definitely in a different place at least as it seems to me.

Larry Edgerton
10-14-2014, 3:50 PM
David, in my short reply I did not specify, but the trudgers and the lazy are not one and the same in my book.

The trudgers are the people that you see every day. the girl at the gas station with a kid at home that takes your money for your morning coffee. The guy at the hardware store that helps you find that screw that you need. The kid that changes you're oil. The world is full of them, and they are an important cog in the machine that makes our society work. We need these people just as much as we need the people that make things work because lets face it, we all can't be the boss. For whatever reason, will, courage or intelligence they do not have the ability to go out and fight for the extra in life. They just do not think that way. Its not really even a fault of their own. But they provide a needed service and deserve to be able to make a living for an honest days work.

The lazy I speak of are already parasites, and if there is a problem with their host they will be looking for a new one. They have no redeeming quality's and their net contribution to society would be expressed as a negative number.

Larry

Jim Becker
10-14-2014, 3:57 PM
I've actually sold jobs because my rate was higher than my competition. It doesn't happen all the time, but I emphasize my quality, longevity in business, use of quality materials, etc. over their likely fly-by-night pricing or lack of experience and quality.

I resemble that remark relative to my tack trunk work. (not really a "business", but something I do for some mad money) My work is nearly twice what another local fellow charges for "similar" products. What I sell is the quality of the work and the quality of the materials. Nothing is "ho-hum" and everything is tailored exactly to the client. When folks balk at my custom-for-everyone costs, I send them to the other guy cheerfully. He's a nice fellow and does reasonable work. But those who choose to go with me send me one, two or more people for new commissions because of what I actually deliver for their money. That happened this week. I delivered a commission a week or two ago to one local barn and just got two new commissions last night from two other folks from the same facility.

I guess that the bottom line is that anyone has to find a way to make "price" not be the primary, or at least only decision point. It's not easy when there are folks willing to work for less and not carry overhead that any sustainable business would feature...but it's still possible.

And congrats on the new truck, Larry! The current generation of vehicles are so nice compared to those of the past in many ways.

Ryan Mooney
10-14-2014, 3:59 PM
More interesting data with the average (mean) and median (50th percentile) and the delta between them: http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

I tend to prefer percentiles and medians to averages because the average data can be heavily skewed by the high (or low) earners. The median is what 50% of the country make more or less than (the "middle" wage).

I'm slightly surprised that the median wage has tracked as close to the average as it has, it would be interesting to have data going further back on that.

Interesting side annecdote, I was recently talking to my 90yr old grandmother who had gotten a book of "what things cost in 1940" and a gallon of milk was $0.34 while wages were $1900/yr. Multiplying it out that means wages are about 22.5 times higher than they were then. So if the price of milk had kept up with wages it would be between around $8/gallon (if you use the average wage as the multiplier). Some other things have tracked closer (loaf of bread was $0.08 and would be $1.80, a house was $6,550 and would be $147,000 - both of which seem pretty close in the cheaper markets).

Relevant to this thread a car (unspecified type) was $800 in 1940 which computes out to $17,900; I don't think you can get much of a new car nowadays for under $18k (I bought my stripped Ranger 4x4 4.0L 6cyl in 2004 for $16k) - that's sort of comparing apples to apple cores though as there's no possible way you could buy a car with the minimal features of the average 1940's rig nowadays. Heck I don't know if you can even GET a manual transmission domestically on most of these rigs anymore (saved over $3k on that) much less manual windows, locks, etc..

David Weaver
10-14-2014, 4:10 PM
Yeah, median is probably a better measure. Looking at the time frame, the median wage is about 2 to one, but it slipped against the mean about 10% or a little less.

You can have relative prices of 1940s food if you're willing to buy organic!! My wife buys some things organic and it drives me up the wall. Milk for the kids is just under $8.

I can identify with the new car price, though, too, and from what I see in the neighborhood, most people are spending a lot more.

Pat Barry
10-14-2014, 7:26 PM
I just bought a new F150 this week. My new one had a sticker of $27800, but I got a $3000 rebate because I was trading in a Ranger, so $24800.
I think congratulations on getting a very good price. Comparisons to the old days are only worth the hot air expended. Prices are to be compared with competitive models and from what I have seen in prices on new trucks you got a great deal.

Andrew Joiner
10-14-2014, 10:26 PM
You can have relative prices of 1940s food if you're willing to buy organic!! My wife buys some things organic and it drives me up the wall. Milk for the kids is just under $8.



I was in the store looking for broccoli recently. The clerk said they were out of regular broccoli but they had organic. I told her I'll just get the organic and add the pesticides when I get home.

Brian Elfert
10-14-2014, 11:12 PM
Your Levi's jeans is a perfect example of things going up. The levi's jeans my mother bought when I was a child lasted. They were heavier, thicker, well made. I would get a pair or two a year if I was lucky. We had a store called Maurice the pants man that would run specials at back to school. Now you go to sears, target, and buy a pair of levis? I can blow a pair out in a month. They may cost 19.99 or 29.99 but Im going to buy 4-6-10 pair a year. Either that or I am going to have 10 pair in my closet to "spread the wear". I NEVER remember a time having 10 pair of jeans in my closet as a kid. I will guarantee you right now that I have more than ten pair of target/sears jeans that are all in a state of falling apart. If I only had two pair Id be walking around in my BVD's which are also falling apart sooner than ever.


The price of cotton went through the roof a few years ago and manufacturers responded by making the fabric thinner instead of raising prices. The Kahki pants I wear to work don't last long at all before the crotch splits. I used to wear out the fabric around the edges before the pants fell apart. I just take the pants back to Kohl's and get another pair when they fail prematurely. I would prefer to pay a few dollars more in return for a product that lasts longer. I switched to pants that are one third more expensive and they still fail the exact same way.

Ole Anderson
10-15-2014, 1:33 AM
If customers want inexpensive paint, then it sounds like you want to serve that market. I buy quality paint, my dad doesn't, and neither does FIL. both would rather put up 5 coats of behr to cover the same as two coats of sherwin williams.

I know this is off the OP's topic, sorry, but Behr is a very good paint, top rated by Consumers Union year after year at nearly half the cost of S-W and I hate to see it slammed as an aside. I just perfectly covered medium-dark blue mudroom walls with two coats of Behr Premium Plus in an off white. I wouldn't use anything else unless I need a self leveling cabinet paint. End rant.

David Weaver
10-15-2014, 9:21 AM
I've had the opposite experience with behr. It covers in two coats if it's painted over a similar color, but if painted on a bare wall over primer, it looks a bit thin. It also has a bad habit of clinging to tape and tearing when tape is removed, something that sherwin williams paint does not do.

The criticism I saw of sherwin williams paint (other than the price if you don't get it on sale) is that it is so thick with solids that you can't work it after you apply it (which is fine with me).

I painted my new room, and put two coats on the inside of a primed door with sherwin williams, and bought behr for the outside of the door after letting them color match it at HD. I had to put 5 coats on. It was an exterior paint instead of interior, but I've used a lot of behr on the interior (bathroom, living room, bedrooms, etc) and in my opinion, it's just an inferior product all around when you're working with it and you want to do the job once and get it right.

My FIL likes to apply the behr, because he's used to it, despite the fact that it tears with the tape, so if he paints in our house (which he likes to do now that he's retired, who is going to argue with that?) that's what we buy for him to use. He likes to work the paint a lot after he applies it, and i don't. We put some patches of various colors on the wall, and it caused him fits because he had to go over the wall that had them about 4 times with behr paint. Actually, it would've caused me fits, but it didn't seem to bother him that much.

So, is it tolerable? I guess so, I tolerated it for years - it was the only thing I used because it was close by and I was trying to buy the cheapest decent paint I could find (I think the premium plus is probably the base that I used). Now that I've used sherwin williams primer and their good interior paints, I won't buy behr again, though. S-W is more expensive, but it's not that expensive if gotten as part of deals.

Strangely enough, when I was reading up about paints, i saw some accounts of contractors saying that some of their crews preferred valspar to S-W, so they separated the guys on each crew based on preference and bought S-W for one, and valspar for another, but I didn't see any pro painters mention behr, and after using S-W, I can see why. All of the little things about it are better.

As a nod to mark, I was always cheap on paint before my contractor gave me paint codes for S-W (to match what we wanted, and to match the windows that came with the room), but I followed the contractor's suggestion. I would've bought behr that time too, but my contractor said basically the same things I found out - they didn't like that behr failed to cover in two coats sometimes and it didn't dry as fast as S-W.

Tom M King
10-15-2014, 11:02 AM
I know it's not the most financially advisable way to do it, but it's less painful to me in the long run to make one payment on a vehicle, and drive it until it drops, even though they are well taken care of.. Current truck bought new in 2001, it's a diesel dually, and still has lots of life in it. no payments for 13 years now.

I wouldn't even talk about working for 30 or 40 bucks an hour. With a reputation, people come looking for you. Want fast and cheap, don't waste my time.

Mark Bolton
10-15-2014, 12:37 PM
I wouldn't even talk about working for 30 or 40 bucks an hour. With a reputation, people come looking for you. Want fast and cheap, don't waste my time.

I am in agreement. I think the 45/hour rate gets commonly tossed around because its a well know standard that that is basically the dead minimum you can stay in business at. On paper in a 50 week year (which would be very rare for someone self employed in the trade) that equates to 90k gross. Once you take out taxes, licensing, insurance, and so on, your sunk. I wouldnt say its impossible depending on the breadth of whatever work your doing but I dont think there would be much left over at the end of the year regardless.

David Weaver
10-15-2014, 12:48 PM
You gotta be able to bill all of those hours in a 50 week year to get to 90k gross, too, which in reality means working extra hours during the day and some weekends.

If you have a spouse and kids, that puts a pinch on that. Better to have a working spouse with health insurance, that way you can write off the licensing and business insurance, and vehicle expenses but not get pummeled by health insurance costs.

Mark Bolton
10-15-2014, 12:48 PM
I know this is off the OP's topic, sorry, but Behr is a very good paint, top rated by Consumers Union year after year at nearly half the cost of S-W and I hate to see it slammed as an aside. I just perfectly covered medium-dark blue mudroom walls with two coats of Behr Premium Plus in an off white. I wouldn't use anything else unless I need a self leveling cabinet paint. End rant.

Ole,
I can honeslty say I havent used Behr paint in perhaps 15 or so years since when HD first came on the scene. When I did use it back then it was like skim milk. Very thin, very cheap. That was what the homecenters were known for. I was against the home centers then and am against them now. The paint quality may well have come up since then but its still not a product I would support, or from a supplier I care to support. In all honesty I really dont even like SW myself. I have alway been a Benjamin Moore or Pratt Lambert guy (pratt is gone to sherwin now). Ben Moore was always the kind of paint where when you popped the lid there was almost a peak inside like a jar of mayonnaise. You might give it a stir and let go of your stick and it would stand there.

David hit the nail on the head in my opinion though, these type paints (and the new self priming scam paints too like Aura) dont like to be played with after they are on the wall. They require a deliberate and accurate application. Very systematic in my opinion. Thats generally not the way a homeowner paints because they dont paint every day. Pro's (at least the ones Ive been a round) move down a wall like a robot. The paint goes on dead even, clean, flat, no edge lines from the roller, at the recommended coverage, and they walk away. The wall is never to be touched again. I can only speculate that the home centers cater their paints to their target market and while many contractors use home center paint, when your painting every day, you can usually make just about anything work.

My gut feeling is that Behr was junk when they came on the scene and they have improved their offering which is understandable. But just like Walmart getting caught sewing made in the USA labels in their imported garments way back when, the average consumer just goes walking right back in. I dont. I try not to support these places that are ramming us into the ground for their own profit as much as I can. Its just my personal position and the Behr I used then is likely the way I will always view Behr.

Mark Bolton
10-15-2014, 12:51 PM
You gotta be able to bill all of those hours in a 50 week year to get to 90k gross, too, which in reality means working extra hours during the day and some weekends.

If you have a spouse and kids, that puts a pinch on that. Better to have a working spouse with health insurance, that way you can write off the licensing and business insurance, and vehicle expenses but not get pummeled by health insurance costs.

You got that right. Hopefully your rate includes some office time (in which case your rate billed to the customer would be higher) but for sure, the office hours, hours at the mechanic getting your truck repaired, at the accountant, all of it, those are all billable hours.

David Weaver
10-15-2014, 1:26 PM
Ole,
I can honeslty say I havent used Behr paint in perhaps 15 or so years since when HD first came on the scene. When I did use it back then it was like skim milk. Very thin, very cheap. That was what the homecenters were known for. I was against the home centers then and am against them now. The paint quality may well have come up since then but its still not a product I would support, or from a supplier I care to support. In all honesty I really dont even like SW myself. I have alway been a Benjamin Moore or Pratt Lambert guy (pratt is gone to sherwin now). Ben Moore was always the kind of paint where when you popped the lid there was almost a peak inside like a jar of mayonnaise. You might give it a stir and let go of your stick and it would stand there.

David hit the nail on the head in my opinion though, these type paints (and the new self priming scam paints too like Aura) dont like to be played with after they are on the wall. They require a deliberate and accurate application. Very systematic in my opinion. Thats generally not the way a homeowner paints because they dont paint every day. Pro's (at least the ones Ive been a round) move down a wall like a robot. The paint goes on dead even, clean, flat, no edge lines from the roller, at the recommended coverage, and they walk away. The wall is never to be touched again. I can only speculate that the home centers cater their paints to their target market and while many contractors use home center paint, when your painting every day, you can usually make just about anything work.

My gut feeling is that Behr was junk when they came on the scene and they have improved their offering which is understandable. But just like Walmart getting caught sewing made in the USA labels in their imported garments way back when, the average consumer just goes walking right back in. I dont. I try not to support these places that are ramming us into the ground for their own profit as much as I can. Its just my personal position and the Behr I used then is likely the way I will always view Behr.

The behr is still thin compared to something like pro classic from SW. I haven't used duration, which they were pushing, nor have I used the expensive primers that SW was pushing. They have a primer called pro block that they don't list or show in the front, and it's half the price of the designer primers they have. It dries in an hour and you can sand it - great stuff. The salesperson at SW gave me a dirty look when I asked for it and then brought it out.

Behr paint is still thin compared to the paints contractors like, but I'm sure the average person overworks their paint because they don't have faith that it will level on its own, or they want to go back a couple of minutes later "ooh...i see an area that needs to be fixed!!"

I remembered reviews of the pro classic paint when I got it where people said it was like painting with marshmallow fluff (it's not that bad), but did exactly like you said - apply it like a robot and let it go. A revelation for a diyer. It covered great out of a spray gun, too, for the door, and didn't take any damage when removing tape. I never could figure out how to not have behr not tear, and went to cutting it in painstakingly without tape at all trim before getting turned on to SW.

The only thing I don't like about SW is the price and the fact that they shove ultra expensive primers at you.

Tom M King
10-15-2014, 1:44 PM
I am in agreement. I think the 45/hour rate gets commonly tossed around because its a well know standard that that is basically the dead minimum you can stay in business at. On paper in a 50 week year (which would be very rare for someone self employed in the trade) that equates to 90k gross. Once you take out taxes, licensing, insurance, and so on, your sunk. I wouldnt say its impossible depending on the breadth of whatever work your doing but I dont think there would be much left over at the end of the year regardless.

I wouldn't talk about 45 either. it was 50 some years ago. Get up to 65, and we'll talk. Even young guys around here with what tools they can get in pickup toolbox are getting 50. You have to pay all your SS in self-employment tax, your own health insurance. if you have to be dependent on a wife to work, and Hve benefits, go get a job as an employee somewhere. you are doing people a favor working for 40 or 45. If you are in business to do people favors, that's one thing. i'm not

Ryan Mooney
10-15-2014, 2:00 PM
Heading vastly off topic :D Although I think its an interesting point of discussion in that it touches on the relative value of things. Some things have clearly gotten "better" (vehicles that run for 100k miles with minimal maintenance other than oil changes, and vehicle tire life are a couple that spring to mind - although one could certainly argue that we're paying for that capability) whereas other things seem to have maintained their relative cost but decreased in value over time (cloth/clothing in general seems to fall in this catagory a lot)


The price of cotton went through the roof a few years ago and manufacturers responded by making the fabric thinner instead of raising prices..

Quite some time before that (60's-70's) there was also a major devaluation of the absolute value of most cotton fabric when a lot of the processing went overseas and (more importantly) moved to high speed looms (even domestically before the great outsourcing).

The strength of a piece of cloth is primarily predicated on the strength of the thread used for the warp (the weft is - for reasons past my understanding - somewhat less important). The older cotton thread used on the warp was twisted quite tightly which made it very strong, it also made it more abrasive and required higher tension to maintain the cloth form. The higher speed looms would fail rather spectaularily when a piece of hard twisted warp broke and they were also wearing out much faster because of the abrasive nature of the thread. So softer twisted thread started being used because it was both cheaper to make, less hard on equipment, and was easier to work with but caused a corresponding decrease in the quality of the resulting product.

The end result was that jeans that used to take a year to break in were worn out in a couple of months of comparable use.

My (second hand[1]) understanding is that this has a lot bigger impact on the longevity of the cloth than the absolute thickness (that is you can have a light thin but strongly spun piece of cloth and a thick but still weak piece of cloth). The tighter thread does take more absolute fiber per yard as well though so I could see there being effects from that as well easily enough.

I wonder if they've moved to even softer spun warp on some of the newer cloth again.


[1] Source: loml is a spinner and weaver and occasionally goes off on the minutia of cloth and thread quality.

Mark Bolton
10-15-2014, 2:07 PM
I wouldn't talk about 45 either. it was 50 some years ago. Get up to 65, and we'll talk. Even young guys around here with what tools they can get in pickup toolbox are getting 50. You have to pay all your SS in self-employment tax, your own health insurance. if you have to be dependent on a wife to work, and Hve benefits, go get a job as an employee somewhere. you are doing people a favor working for 40 or 45. If you are in business to do people favors, that's one thing. i'm not

Again, agreed.. ;) Im right there with ya. That said, I have honestly never worked in an area where guys with tools in a pickup tool box were ever even remotely worth 50 and hour as a stand alone guy. Im talking just your average carpenter. So I guess I would either love to be in your area if the skill level is that high, or hate to be in your area for the pain it would cause my, and my customers, wallet.

A common rate around here for two men, and an equipped vehicle (van or truck) is 90 an hour. It often bills out at 800 a day. Thats from the time they get rolling in the morning til' the time they get back so it includes supply house/yard time and so on. Thats a rate the company would bill for those two guys. Its common to have commercial electricians and so on billing at 700-800 a day for a guy with a helper.

Now we both know, thats day work. When you fold it into a large job things are much different.

Mark Bolton
10-15-2014, 2:18 PM
Heading vastly off topic :D Although I think its an interesting point of discussion in that it touches on the relative value of things. Some things have clearly gotten "better" (vehicles that run for 100k miles with minimal maintenance other than oil changes, and vehicle tire life

I have actually had this conversation with a few people and while its definitely clear that vehicle quality and longevity has increased I have often wondered if the real reason you are seeing such high mileages with less maintenance is merely a factor of people commuting much farther distances daily as well as road maintenance. Now Im not saying a 60's or 70's car would run forever on long commutes and the roads of today but I will bet they would have run many many times longer than they did.

When I was a kid, most everyone I knew had relatively short commutes. Just from memory 20 minutes or so may have been a long way for someone to go for work. Roads werent hat they are now, and so on. I know in my own life I live in a rural area. The types of roads you drive have everything to do with how much you have to work on your vehicle (dont get me started on HOW you drive :eek:). Anyone knows if your running a lot of highway miles everything on your vehicle lasts longer. Tires, wheel bearings, ball joints, tie rod ends, the whole lot. Then, if you live in an area like me where you have a couple miles of gravel road, your U-joints go annually from the mud and dust, ball joints get pounded to smithereens in a year and a half, and so on. Windy back roads eat tires and bearings, and so on.

The longer highway commutes would seem to have a lot to do with reduced maintenance on a high mileage vehicle now.

The truck I mentioned earlier was driven like a fine custom automobile by my wife and I. We both were very "soft" drivers in the sense of hard accelerations, hard braking, and so on. It was a 5 speed manual so you can really take the beating off a vehicle (brakes and so on) with a stick. My mechanic use to tease me all the time that he couldnt figure out how we went so long without brakes. Clutch lasts 100k, and so on.

Tom M King
10-15-2014, 5:04 PM
Again, agreed.. ;) Im right there with ya. That said, I have honestly never worked in an area where guys with tools in a pickup tool box were ever even remotely worth 50 and hour as a stand alone guy. Im talking just your average carpenter. So I guess I would either love to be in your area if the skill level is that high, or hate to be in your area for the pain it would cause my, and my customers, wallet.

A common rate around here for two men, and an equipped vehicle (van or truck) is 90 an hour. It often bills out at 800 a day. Thats from the time they get rolling in the morning til' the time they get back so it includes supply house/yard time and so on. Thats a rate the company would bill for those two guys. Its common to have commercial electricians and so on billing at 700-800 a day for a guy with a helper.

Now we both know, thats day work. When you fold it into a large job things are much different.


Yeah, that sounds more like it.

David Weaver
10-15-2014, 5:14 PM
When I had my room done last year, I hired out the installation of the split system. The HVAC guy who visited me twice installed it for me, and he sent out a guy and a helper for $750, and they ended up staying almost the entire day. I could hardly believe that he'd make two visits for an estimate and send two guys out for that long for that rate.

(I have no idea why it took them most of a day to install a split, but they did a neat and tidy job for a flat fee, so I didn't care. The exchange of buying the split and having them install it as part of the job saved me $1500 vs. the local "diamond" plumber)

Ryan Mooney
10-15-2014, 6:10 PM
I have actually had this conversation with a few people and while its definitely clear that vehicle quality and longevity has increased I have often wondered if the real reason you are seeing such high mileages with less maintenance is merely a factor of people commuting much farther distances daily as well as road maintenance. Now Im not saying a 60's or 70's car would run forever on long commutes and the roads of today but I will bet they would have run many many times longer than they did.

Well I certainly can't argue that you're wrong. It would seem likely that there is some combination of the factors. I do know what materials science has gotten vastly better in a lot of cases so I'm pretty sure that that and better tolerances come into play but how much is what is well outside my knowledge space.

Tom M King
10-15-2014, 6:44 PM
I've worn out I forget how many vehicles since the early '70s. Tires are better, fuel systems are better, lubricants are better, ignition systems are better, transmissions, brakes are better. Change those things back to 1970 technology, and I'm not sure you'd get one to last longer than they did back then.

Ole Anderson
10-16-2014, 8:52 AM
I agree that Behr has an issue with masking tape if you wait too long to pull the tape. With any paint you need to use proper brushes and roller covers and know how to load them to get the paint to the wall and cover in one coat (similar colors) or two coats (contrasting colors). Too many DIY'ers try to stretch the paint with a dry brush or roller. I always use two hands on the roller using an appropriate length handle extension and apply some pressure to squeeze the paint out of the roller cover as I go, keeping my strokes vertical and moving methodically "like a robot". It isn't until you scrape the paint out of a roller cover during clean up that you realize how much a 3/8" or 1/2" cover can hold. I had a friend who was a high end pro painter and when we painted our church sanctuary just before Christmas 5 years ago, I bought Behr paint. He commented that he liked the way it went on and covered. But, like many pros, he went back to his favorite pro supplier paint store because they knew him, he had an account, and he got their discount.

SW Pro Classic is a great paint for trim and cabinets, it goes on nice, self levels and is tough and is tape friendly.

Brian Elfert
10-16-2014, 11:54 AM
Quite some time before that (60's-70's) there was also a major devaluation of the absolute value of most cotton fabric when a lot of the processing went overseas and (more importantly) moved to high speed looms (even domestically before the great outsourcing).

The strength of a piece of cloth is primarily predicated on the strength of the thread used for the warp (the weft is - for reasons past my understanding - somewhat less important). The older cotton thread used on the warp was twisted quite tightly which made it very strong, it also made it more abrasive and required higher tension to maintain the cloth form. The higher speed looms would fail rather spectaularily when a piece of hard twisted warp broke and they were also wearing out much faster because of the abrasive nature of the thread. So softer twisted thread started being used because it was both cheaper to make, less hard on equipment, and was easier to work with but caused a corresponding decrease in the quality of the resulting product.


The problems I am seeing with cotton pants wearing out a lot faster only started a few years ago around the time cotton pricing got real high. The price of the pants has gone up only a dollar or two, but quality went way down.

Back on topic, I don't think cars are lasting longer due to better roads. The roads in my area are mostly falling apart with terrible potholes. Yes, weather has a lot to do with our roads getting potholes, but a properly rebuilt road can go for years before starting to develop potholes. Taxpayers have been complaining for years about terrible roads and politicians are finally starting to respond. The city of St. Paul is spending some $50 million on roads next year which is a huge amount compared to a typical year. St. Paul is also doing some badly needed paving projects on an expedited basis this year.

David Weaver
10-16-2014, 11:57 AM
I agree that Behr has an issue with masking tape if you wait too long to pull the tape. With any paint you need to use proper brushes and roller covers and know how to load them to get the paint to the wall and cover in one coat (similar colors) or two coats (contrasting colors). Too many DIY'ers try to stretch the paint with a dry brush or roller. I always use two hands on the roller using an appropriate length handle extension and apply some pressure to squeeze the paint out of the roller cover as I go, keeping my strokes vertical and moving methodically "like a robot". It isn't until you scrape the paint out of a roller cover during clean up that you realize how much a 3/8" or 1/2" cover can hold. I had a friend who was a high end pro painter and when we painted our church sanctuary just before Christmas 5 years ago, I bought Behr paint. He commented that he liked the way it went on and covered. But, like many pros, he went back to his favorite pro supplier paint store because they knew him, he had an account, and he got their discount.

SW Pro Classic is a great paint for trim and cabinets, it goes on nice, self levels and is tough and is tape friendly.

I get something good out of your post - something I hadn't thought of before, which is to remove the tape immediately and suck it up and put the tape back down for coat #2. You're right, I have been letting the first coat dry and then taking the tape right off with the second coat, but the first coat is already ready to tear by then.

Behr paint *is* durable on the wall once it's on, and it may be that pliability. the S-w pro classic is a harder paint, and I think I may have used that also on the wall, but probably not - I'd have to check the container. My kids have managed to scuff the walls in a few places, but the room is their room to play and has wheeled vehicles and such, they'd probably rip off any paint. I agree with you entirely on getting paint on the brush or roller and getting in on the wall without trying to be cheap with it or stretch it out by working it a long time.

David Weaver
10-16-2014, 11:59 AM
The problems I am seeing with cotton pants wearing out a lot faster only started a few years ago around the time cotton pricing got real high. The price of the pants has gone up only a dollar or two, but quality went way down.

Back on topic, I don't think cars are lasting longer due to better roads. The roads in my area are mostly falling apart with terrible potholes. Yes, weather has a lot to do with our roads getting potholes, but a properly rebuilt road can go for years before starting to develop potholes. Taxpayers have been complaining for years about terrible roads and politicians are finally starting to respond. The city of St. Paul is spending some $50 million on roads next year which is a huge amount compared to a typical year. St. Paul is also doing some badly needed paving projects on an expedited basis this year.


I don't know that I noticed a difference due to the cotton prices so much as with the full roll-out of wrinkle-free clothes. I haven't yet found anything wrinkle free that is as durable as shirts that aren't wrinkle free. The wrinkle free cotton appears to not be very durable around stuff like cuff ends and collars. I've tried shirts from $25-$75 of various brands and all of them are like that. You can wear them about 75 times before some part of them breaks down, and when I think about paying a dollar each day I wear a shirt, I don't like that much.