Felder Band Saw - New Ceramic Guides

[Keith Outten]

I purchased the new Felder ceramic band saw guides for my FP610. Installation of the new guides went pretty smooth even though the instructions provided were only drawings, there were no written directions.

The guides installed perfectly and the fit is first class. The original guides were fine but I felt given the quality of the saw and the fact it is my last one it is prudent to do this upgrade. I also found the time to order a Lennox Trimaster saw blade that arrived Friday afternoon but I haven't installed it yet.

[Jamie Buxton]

Hmm! I hadn't been aware of those Felder guides. They look a great deal like the ceramic guides which Laguna has been selling for quite a while, but bigger. Do they reduce the resaw height, compared to the old Eurostyle guides?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Keith, I'm hosting a band saw seminar at Felder Ontario next Saturday and part of the seminar features the ceramic guides.

Glad you like them, they do work well........Rod.

[Mike Heaney]

Interesting- does anyone know if they can be made to fit a Hammer saw too?

mike

[Craig Behnke]

Interesting- does anyone know if they can be made to fit a Hammer saw too?

mike

Mike, i got a promotional email from Felder, I read it (but since deleted it) and I am 99.9% certain the promo info on the ceramic guides said they retrofit to the Hammer 4400 and 3800

[Keith Outten]

Hmm! I hadn't been aware of those Felder guides. They look a great deal like the ceramic guides which Laguna has been selling for quite a while, but bigger. Do they reduce the resaw height, compared to the old Eurostyle guides?

As far as I can tell the resaw height is not affected by the new guides, it looks like an even swap space wise. The adjustments are a bit easier the way the new knobs work. I hope to have the new bandsaw blade installed tomorrow morning so I can give the whole upgrade a good test.

[Keith Outten]

Interesting- does anyone know if they can be made to fit a Hammer saw too?

mike

Mike,

Here is the text from the email I received:

NEW X-LIFE ceramic guide
... extremely wear resistant and ensures maximum blade stability

Ceramic guides guarantee excellent cutting results and maximum blade stability with four guiding blocks positioned directly on the saw blade. With reduced friction and less heat generation, ceramic guides are practically wear resistant and enable an extremely long usable life and consistent cutting quality when compared to conventional roller guides.

Can be retrofitted to every Felder (FB 510, FB 610) and Hammer (N3800, N4400) bandsaw.
.

[John Coloccia]

So the guides are actually in contact with the blade? I look forward to reading the results of your first cuts.

[Keith Mathewson]

I hope your experiences are better than mine have been on a Laguna. The side guides aren't so bad, although they are a pain to setup but the rear guide which should be a thrust bearing is pure rubbish.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Mike,

Here is the link;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt02_OuO1Dc

I also got the Felder ceramic guides recently.
The fit and finish of these guides are quite impressive. I have several glitches and need some part replacements, though.
I installed to my FB510. Oddly, with the 1-inch resawking, the upper guide interferes with the blade guard.
Keith's fourth pic shows he had no problem with FB610. Also, the compartment for the lower guide is so small in the FB510 and the horizontal adjustment of the thrust guide is very difficult to adjust.
Other than that, the cut quality is quite good. Maybe I can achieve the similar results with the original euro guides, but the set up is much easier. Just lightly pinch the blade with the ceramic. Then the blade has no place for wobble in all directions.
I think it's worth the upgrade.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi John (sorry Keith jacking your thread),

I have done only few resaws so far, but results have been quite smooth.
As I mentioned, I think I could achieve similar cut with the euro guides but set up is much easier.
In the beginning, I used a dollar bill but soon I stopped doing it and just lightly pinch the guides. So, the guides are actually touching the blade. I make sure not to have too much resistance, though.
Both the Hammer video I linked and the instruction of the ceramic guide indicate the guides can gently touch the blade.

[Mike Heaney]

Thanks Craig, Keith and Susumu- I will check them out

thanks

mike

[Silas Smith]

Two quick questions, I have the fb600 (you win by 10mm ��) but does anyone know if the guides are different? The other question is what they cost? I have access to the machine shop at work and I'm curious if I could make my own or if it would be worth it

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Silas,

It was $128 each (upper and lower sold separately).
Not sure about FB600.

[Mike Wilkins]

Ceramic is a great upgrade over the standard Euro guides. I made the switch for my Laguna LT 18 several years ago, and it was sweet. Probably why Laguna started putting them on all their bandsaws.
You will love using the saw after the upgrade.

[David Hawxhurst]

I have the fb600 (you win by 10mm 😀) but does anyone know if the guides are different? I have access to the machine shop at work and I'm curious if I could make my own or if it would be worth it

yes they will fit the fb600. the 610 is the same size as the 600. they are pretty much the same machine. the biggest difference that i know about is table tilt, the 610 will do 45 where the 600 only does 22ish. there are probably some other smaller improvements.

[ian maybury]

Ceramic guides promt an interesting question. Seeems to me that ordinarily speaking the guides are not regarded as being all that critical to band saw performance. (on a big/stiff saw that is) Against that the ceramic guides can supposedly be set to touch the blade at two points on each side without causing heating. Which potentially has the effect of damping ripples/vibration/high frequency waves moving vertically up and down the blade (like when you 'crack' the end of a rope and wave moves along it) - which might stop it flapping from side to side and hence deliver a cleaner sawn surface.

The $1m question seems to be whether or not this happens in practice. There's been ceramic guides around for quite a while (one of the Italian saw makers), but they don't seem to have taken off in any very big way???

[Keith Outten]

I installed the new 1" Lennox Trimaster blade this morning and made a couple quick cuts, one in a piece of cherry and the other in Corian. Right out of the gate the difference between the old blade and the Trimaster is nothing short of incredible. My carpenters square shows the cuts were a perfect 90 degrees but the edges were not as smooth as the old blade.

I have a job in the shop right now that will keep me polishing Corian for the rest of the day so I won't get a chance to do a resaw test until tonight or tomorrow morning :)
.

[Steve Hoare]

Hi Susumu

$128 is a good price, here in England the ceramic guides for my Hammer 4400 bandsaw cost £120 each, upper and lower set = £240, quite a high price and we are part of Europe.

I'm also looking to change my Euro style guides, they are noisy and bind up occasionally but it seems reading the threads the bandsaw is a tricky machine to set up.

Will probably have to just buy and try.

[James Bilsky]

Hello
Yes they are newly available for the Hammer Line.

Here's link to the Online Hammer/Felder store where they are offered

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Accessories/Bandsaw-accessories/X-Life-Euro-guides.html

Jim

[Keith Outten]

I had the opportunity to rip some long poplar boards yesterday and the cut was smooth as silk. Better yet the cuts were perfectly straight, better then the quality I have been getting on my table saw and I was able to rip the boards faster than I normally do on my table saw without being concerned about kickback. The new ceramic guides with the new blade made a big difference in performance and quality.

[Mark Moreland]

The $1m question seems to be whether or not this happens in practice. There's been ceramic guides around for quite a while (one of the Italian saw makers), but they don't seem to have taken off in any very big way???

Ceramic guide blocks have been around for about 18 years, when they were patented by SpaceAge Ceramics, which supplies them to Felder (and others) for installation on their equipment. The original owners/inventors were not particularly marketing oriented, which could explain the lack of "have taken off in a very big way..."

[ian maybury]

One of the Italian saw makers has offered them for yonks - but you would imagine that if it made a lot of difference that it would have created demand.

It strikes me looking at the thread again and your link Mark that it ought to be very possible to make a set of DIY ceramic guides for very small money. Choose an appropriate set of ceramic blocks from your link (about $50), then mount them in DIY aluminium blocks. Could be very easy, or might not be so simple depending on the saw layout.

Ceramics are fairly easily bonded, although you need a high flexibility adhesive when on to steel or aluminium to handle the relative movement with temperature changes. Maybe: http://www.masterbond.com/tds/ep37-3flf Some sort of mechanical retention might be better.

The Felder (and the Laguna) items both use a vertically fairly widely spaced pair of blocks - wonder if this is significant. It might be more effective to damp out flutter or whatever. Against that some makers use a ceramic faced version of the Euro guides...

[James Nugnes]

Boy those Felder guides of yours look like they are very nicely made. I may be interpreting what I really can't see from a photo but it looks like they are machined to very tight tolerances. I know whenever I have the guides for any bandsaw in hand I always note how well they square up to the guide post mating surfaces for the upper guide and the bracket for the lower guide.

I wonder about the rear ceramic guide or thrust bearing myself. I have read Laguna instructions. They are very definitive about the back of the blade riding on the rear guide, telling the user pretty clearly that they should be in contact. They also go on to tell you that the expectation is that the rear of the blade will also be rounded by the rear guide and further the expectation is that the back of the blade is going to "leave its mark" so to speak. They ask that you rotate the rear guide as blades wear into the leading surface. I have to look again but I think they recommend rotating it during blade changes and then also after a certain number of hours in operation. But at least the way I read it that might also mean that if you get the rear guide exerting more pressure than Laguna expects then maybe you are going to get deeper into that rear guide than Laguna wants and that you will like as a user.

This is going to be my first experience with ceramic guides....maybe the same for many of us. I think in my case, I might try rounding the blade as opposed to relying on the ceramic rear guide to do it. I have to think the back of the blade would be less inclined to get as far into the rear guide that way and then I might also just rest the back of the blade lightly against the rear guide figuring just the cutting action is going to cause the blade to deflect at least some minor degree rearward anyway.

Good luck with the Felder's Keith. They look really nice. Hopefully you will let us know how they work out for you over time.

[Keith Outten]

James,

So far so good with my FB-610 but I still haven't had a big job for the saw yet so I can give it a real workout. Every cut I have made so far has impressed me though, the saw cuts without effort which is a long way from my previous experience with band saws. The five HP motor with the one inch 3TPI carbide bade is the hot setup.

[Susumu Mori]

I have been using the ceramic guides on my FB510 for about 4 months, I guess.
They have impressive quality and mass.
I much prefer it to the original euro guides, not because of the cutting quality but the ease of adjustment; slightly pinch the side guides, make sure the blade is not feeling too much friction, and ready.

As for the rear thrust guides, I tested the Laguna's way (almost touching) and the way suggested by many experts in the forum (move it away from the blade). I much prefer the latter regardless of the ceramic or euro style. With a 1-inch blade and enough tension, the blade can cut by its own tension. The thrust guide is there just to avoid the garret catching the side guides and let me know how much force I'm applying to the blade. Once the blade hits the thrust guide, I ease the pressure. The cutting becomes much quieter and smoother in this way

[john lawson]

I hope your experiences are better than mine have been on a Laguna. The side guides aren't so bad, although they are a pain to setup but the rear guide which should be a thrust bearing is pure rubbish.

Mine work very well

[James Nugnes]

I like that idea myself Susumu. After all, these guides are not the Carter scroll saw adapter with a bearing that the back of the blade is actually running in full time. I also like the idea of getting some forewarning that I might be exerting just a bit more pressure than I should be. I am far from perfect and way far from patient.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi James,

One thing I noticed with a wide blade is, if I push it against the rear thrust guide, the back of the blade gets deflected (to the right in my FB510 and Resaw King). The harder I push, the more tilted the blade. When I push the board slower, the blade comes back, the back of the blade gets detached from the guide, and the orientation of the blade comes back straight. So, during a cut, the blade does butt-shaking dance, which exaggerates the saw marks. So, in my opinion, we should stay away from the real thrust guide. I believe in the side guides, although some say they are not necessary either.

I didn't notice all these when I was using my 14-inch saw with 1/2 inch blades. Large saws with wide blades and high tension are very different beast.

[Keith Outten]

I installed my rear blocks right up against the back of the band saw blade on both top and bottom, they work perfectly.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Keith,

Unlike euro-style guides, the ceramic guides hold the blade for the entire width securely. So, the blade is definitely more stable when the blade is pushed against the rear thrust guide.

Still, I found backing-off the rear guide makes the sawing much quieter and pleasant. When you have time, you may want to try it and if so, please give me the feedback. Please make sure that the side guides are also backed off by the same amount because during the cutting, the blade should be pushed back and the garrets may touch the side ceramics.

[Johannes Schreiner]

Hi.

Just found this nice thread by browsing the forum... and I might add some of my own latest thoughs :).

I've got the X-Life guides for about 4 months now, on a Hammer N4400. About 300 EUR for both (upper/lower) here in Germany btw. Not a real bargain, I know and I was quite contemplating about purchasing it for almost a year. The quite interresting prices for their Hammer bandsaw/s get quite high, when thinking about some extras... So I'm still lurking for the extension table/s as well, but I'd rather build something, than spending an other 300 EUR on the bandsaw. The saw (N4400) is a great powerhorse (3 phase, 400v), but kinda rough and kinda 'basic'... Its not perfect. But I know what a new hema or a vintage german cast iron dinosaur does cost here ;). Overall: I like it, and I like to use it and the X-life guides made a good (and still economical) tool even a little better. If I could give advice to someone who is considering to buy a Hammer I'd say:

- ! not to buy the N3800 (it leaves me puzzled why they sell it)
- if the N4400 is what You're looking for, then consider the 3 Phase motor if possible, and get it with the X-life guides already included
- if You can pay for a 'more & better' in many details, consider the Felder line (e.g. 610)
- if You saw for Your bread and butter: get a Hema. Hehe. No offense ment ;).

I upgraded from the Hammer/Felder standard guides. I've had much worse (china made) euro- style guides on a 1 HP Metabo once, no (!) comparision. The standard roller guides are fine indeed and if there werent the ceramics, I would still be somewhat happy with them.

OK- methinks, 4 months useage are not long ennought use to write a real big review, but maybe 'nough to sum up the changes this new guides made for my work:

PRO:
- the rolls of the standard guides tend to get worn quickly- especially if stuck. And they stuck often on mine, when finest dust and resin made its way into 'em. The X-life wont. There is no movin' part.
Just keep the knobs and screws clean.
- wear?, none by now. But they wont last eternally, as I see how they 'polish' the blades sides on contact. Can be replaced anyway.
- nearly no noise. The rollers of the standard guides were scraky and noisy sometimes. Especially on curves and when manual 'force' is applied on a dulling blade.
- adjustment is faster now. Changing blades is faster now, indeed. No, no stopwatch test available from me.
- stability of adjustment is better/perfect. The standard rollers had a bad tendency on 'getting open' (unlock) from time to time. Cheap machinery I'd say. But... remembering the Metabo it was still absolutely OK.
But, If You ever met a perfectly machined HEMA or Panhans guide, You would simply call it a pain. The X- life now dont move and dont change, once set.
- better accuracy on deep blades. I got 3 sets on 25mm blades (1"), mainly for resawing fresh wood (huge saber teeth) or just straight cuts in layered wood (finer toothing)- cuts are straight as a laser now.
I really dont do veneer, but I literally could do some paper thin sheets now ;)
- when I got the N4400 at first, I managed to flatten the sewing of a blade while cutting curves. Bad setup of the guides, so my fault- sure, but I guess this wont happen so fast on a properly set ceramic
upper guide, than with the common euro style rollers.

NEUTRAL:
- curves cut the same way- not easier, not worse. It might be a tid bit better on a 6mm blade, but not worth mentioning.

Cons:
- Now it takes a little extra time to put on my carter bandsaw guide (that grooved- bearing- thingy for 4mm blades). This needs the lower part of the 'old' upper guide to hold on the saw. Thats all.
No issue- just uncomfortable.
- I never found out HOW to get a 6mm band right into the lower guides without adding sets of 2-3 washers behind them. It seems not to be made for bands >10mm. And, if using a narrow band,
the lower guide's mounting is extended to full max. - what makes it unnecessary flimsy to set right. A longer mounting could help. I'll tell that to our FELDER deal soon.
If someone constatly uses narrow bands on the N4400, it might be quite helpful to keep the massive mounting rod of the standard lower guides mounted. But then... You wont be able to use a
band wider than appx. 16mm ;(.
- one of the 'Kipp' clamps broke by fastening it first time (plastic lever, made in germany btw). Replaced with a sturdier version...
- Price tag. The 300 EUR they want here is hefty. Even for both. So consider to buy it with Your new Felder/Hammer saw in a set, probably.

Kind regards,

Johannes

[ian maybury]

Thanks Johann. It's hard to know just how much ceramic guides add. Could be that the benefit is pretty situation specific too, in that the guides on a big old saw that's plenty strong don't seem to play much of a part in blade control.

A lightweight bandsaw at or exceeding it's resaw depth capability will often start to vibrate quite badly. As in there's noise and disruption of the cut, but nothing very visually obvious happening to the blade other than maybe some drift setting in. I can't be sure, but testing by holding a slip of wood to the blade as this was happening (on my old saw) suggested that there was quite a lot of lengthwise vibration taking place. This might even have entailed rotational oscillation of the relatively light aluminium wheels and the blade as an assembly, and/or possibly some sort of vibration in the (not stiff enough) tensioning spring and maybe even the chassis too.

It seems that it's possible to set ceramic guides tight against the blade without causing a heating issue, and it's struck me that perhaps they may be useful for this reason to damp out this sort of vibration - which might mean that proportionally they help more on a marginal saw. Could be the benefit is somewhat setting dependent too.

You're not keen on the N3800. People seem occasionally to get stuck on making a call between it and N4400. It seems lighter in some respects, but what have you seen to be the main differences? Any experience of the performance differences?

PS I had the Kipp clamp secirng the fence fail on first touch on an A3 410 planer too - it looked like there was a defect in the bronze stud.

[Keith Outten]

Thanks guys for the feedback. The ripping quality is the most important to me as I stopped using my table saw and use my Felder Band Saw to rip lumber now. Changing from the OEM blade to the new Lennox blade made such a huge improvement it made it more difficult to establish whether the blade of the new ceramic guides were responsible for such a vast improvement. No doubt that both of these changes contributed to better performance and to be perfectly honest the saw was respectable even with the OEM blade and the original guides installed.

I have a smaller band saw to use for radius work so its unlikely I will ever use a smaller blade on the Felder. I have never used a band saw that I enjoy more than the Felder FB610, its the saw I have always wanted.
.

[Johannes Schreiner]

Hi Ian.


Well... that little too rigorous, but well intentioned hint (n4400 rather than n3800) was not based on a practical comparision by testing both Hammer bs models before buying the bigger one.


I just tried the n4400 right after inspecting some Scheppach and Metabo bs of similar size and cost, found the n4400 best of all I've seen AND I could afford- and indeed ignored the brand new smaller sister n3800 after reading its tec specs...
I dont even know someone getting the smaller scaled saw since it came out. All went straight for the N4400- if they choosed a Hammer. I'd say, because of the price difference between the both, which is rather small, 250 Eur I remember. For this little advantage, the performance suffers much by the shrinking. For me: too much less performance. Look at the wattage (3 phase models), wheel size, table size, just the height for cutting is (theoretically) same, afaik.
But... seriously. It would not be there if there would not be a market for a (even) more compact, lighter, cheaper Hammer/model. And woodworkers doing small scale jobs in relatively confined spaces might absolutely treasure it. But, I'm not sure on this, because otherwise its not *that much* smaller, anyway.




If the ceramic guides will solve Your well described oscilliations- I'm not sure. If its a saw working on its limits- marginally as You wrote, I dont even think so. A band, thats new and sharp-as-hell might do a lot of a difference. Right set/design of teething in that case might be a must as well.


If it only shows on a certain blade, call it guilty... Mostly, I learned, that blade dancing and 'bending' away rythmically is a result of the blade itself. It might be duller as You think or the sewing (twist of teeth) is already gone and it vibrates. If the set/desing of its teeth are wrong for the purpose, it begins to clog fast as well. If it makes noise and lots of heat, there's mainly the reason/s.


I only use the thinner 'flexback' blades on the Hammer now- but I remember that the cheaper 'standard' blades of thicker carbon steel were not to be tensioned ennough on my smaller Metabo that time- resulting in a similar effect. The closer set ceramics guides wont stop this entirely. I'm not a bs expert, but here is what I've noticed:


1. too much tension to get blades straight, might stress the (steel) chassis and the wheels bearings.
Okay... 'chassis' is theory. I never noticed this, exceped on very cheap/small saws.
The N4400 is at its very end I feel when using my 1" blades. I use to set the blade tension at over 30mm
to 35mm equivalent to make it stiff ennought. On a smaller saw, one might get problems with the wheels
running for a long time at an high overtension (without breaking the blade)- I guess.

2. a bad soldering point: I've had this on a custom made 10mm blade. Every time the soldering passed
it 'jumped' a little. A frequency that shivered the whole 150 Kg of the machine. Besides, there was a noticeable 'turning' of the blade and an ungood sound from the (standard) guides as well. I returned it fast. The exchange was ok then.


3. deformation by storage or being left under tension for too long. One of my small 6mm bands was delivered in a hand sized roll... Folding it out, i noticed little 'buckling' due to that deformation. Loading it into the hammer resulted in a similar rythm. And, I could see it 'bending' left/right (even) under much higher tension- without cutting btw, just watching it run. Effect went away completely after a while of using it.
I always turn the spring down after use (I learned it that way). I can imagine that there is a certain memory in a steel band, when resting still under full tension for a while. Similar to rubber belts in a belt drive. Result might be a wobble- unsure if that goes away with using it again afterwards.


4. worn or dirty rubbers on the wheels. Common for vibrations- but nor for what You described.


5. displacement of rubber band on the wheels. Same. Never had this. But worth a double check.


6. wheels not adjusted properly together. As the hammer 'wants' the bands to be nested on the edge of the flat rubber sole (teeth sewing is left off the rubber) and not on the hilltop middle (like on crowned rubbers), I feel its not ideal for the applied forces, and an adjustment is careful to be set- unless You like to flatten down the twist of the sewing if unnoticed... However, especially on new bands it has to be checked and re- adjusted from time to time. If forgotten, I notice the blade bending as well (in one direction).

7. wrong blade. I own an exta fine 16mm blade. Nice for 10-12mm plywood. But using this on e.g. fresh wood / multi layered stuff thicker than appx 3" results in clogging the whole cut in seconds. The blade begins to wander off, turn away, stall.


Hm. I hope that helped a little ;).
And... excuse my horrible english...


Kind regards,
Johannes

[Ben Rivel]

Bumping an old thread here:

Ive got an N4400 with the Hammer ceramic guides and was wondering if its still possible to use a Carter Stabilizer with these guides installed. The normally recommended Carter Stabilizer (model JET1) I have only seen used with the Euro guides installed. Anyone found a stabilizer thatll work with the ceramic guides installed? Or by chance would a stabilizer not be needed due to the design of the ceramic guides?

[Erik Loza]

Bumping an old thread here:

Ive got an N4400 with the Hammer ceramic guides and was wondering if its still possible to use a Carter Stabilizer with these guides installed. The normally recommended Carter Stabilizer (model JET1) I have only seen used with the Euro guides installed. Anyone found a stabilizer thatll work with the ceramic guides installed? Or by chance would a stabilizer not be needed due to the design of the ceramic guides?

Typically, you take the entire guide unit off and replace it with the Stabilizer. At least that's how I've done it. You're working with the horizontal round post, not anything to do with the stock guides.

Erik

[Ben Rivel]

Typically, you take the entire guide unit off and replace it with the Stabilizer. At least that's how I've done it. You're working with the horizontal round post, not anything to do with the stock guides.

Erik
Ah! That would make more sense. So just the upper guide would be removed and the lower guide would stay on?

[Mike Chalmers]

No, lower guide is removed as well.

[Ben Rivel]

No, lower guide is removed as well.
Oh man, what a pain. Taking those on and off every time I want to use a thin blade would annoying me I think. I didnt realize that was how it would work.

[Erik Loza]

Oh man, what a pain. Taking those on and off every time I want to use a thin blade would annoying me I think. I didnt realize that was how it would work.

We kept a 14" bandsaw in the shop specifically for 1/4" blades. It was just easier than swapping all that stuff out whenever you wanted to make a delicate cut.

Erik

[Johannes Schreiner]

Hi,

I do rarely use the Carter guide... I rather jump to my scroll saw for fine curves and tiny stuff of possible. As said, ceramic or euro guides don't matter. As both are to be taken off. You just might need the 20mm bar that goes with the euro guides as the ceramic blocks setup does not have such (*). Might be a problem if someone bought the saw with a ceramic guide set ready. However, Taking off the upper and lower guides is not a problem. But putting them on again and the necessary adjustment is quite as annoying as time consuming.

Johannes

(*): made a quick photo to show both...

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