Looking For A Better Corner Joint

[Julie Moriarty]

Before we move, I'm planning on replacing the old waterbed frame we have with something nicer. I know, I'm probably the last person in America with a waterbed. The one we have now I made in 1970, when I lived in an apartment and had few tools. The corners are held together with right angle brackets and screwed into the inside of the frame. It's kind of crude.

My plans are to start with 8/4 African mahogany and rip it to 9-1/2" wide boards. For the corner joint all I can think of is making a finger joint and drilling down through that to insert a pin to hold it together so it can be easily taken apart when needed. There's a lot of outward pressure on the frame but I don't want to go back to the steel angle brackets. I wanted something a little less crude.

Besides the finger joint, is there another corner joint that could be used for this application? My brain can't come up with anything else.

[Fred Heenie]

The ugly brackets of 40 years ago are still ugly and still available if that's an option. At the bottom of this page http://www.usifaz.com/brackets1.html most common was the bracket with keyholes in one leg

A more expensive KD bracket is available from Rockler http://www.rockler.com/no-mortise-bed-rail-brackets or Woodworkers Supply http://woodworker.com/surface-bed-rail-fasteners-mssu-953-817.asp


Google this patent to see your concept. U.S. 4,125,912

[Dave Zellers]

Hard for me to imagine a better solution than you have come up with.

It would be plenty strong and I love the ease of assembly and disassembly. You could also make a decorative thing-a-ma-bob that the pin would screw into for the top of each corner.

[David Hawxhurst]

you could do a sliding dovetail, or a dovetail joint and drill down and pin it like you suggested w/the finger joint.

[Mel Fulks]

Well, they still make traditional bed bolts ,and I don't think there is anything stronger. Easy to take apart,too.

[Mike Heidrick]

Why not look into lee valleys bed bolts and covers and do those with floating tenonos above and below the bolts. Pretty much all large bed frame designs are not permanent and mde to break down.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware/page.aspx?p=40445&cat=3,40842,43730&ap=1

[Jamie Buxton]

You can also do the bed bolt approach, but without the head of the bolt visible from the outside. The bolt inserts into a groove on the inside face of the rail. It screws into a metal threaded insert embedded in the post or footboard.

[John Coloccia]

Before we move, I'm planning on replacing the old waterbed frame we have with something nicer. I know, I'm probably the last person in America with a waterbed. The one we have now I made in 1970, when I lived in an apartment and had few tools. The corners are held together with right angle brackets and screwed into the inside of the frame. It's kind of crude.


But aren't the brackets hidden once you apply the traditional leatherette upholstery with fuzzy zebra trim?

edit:
Forgot to mention something. Of the handful of waterbeds I've seen, I think they were pretty much all just slabs of wood/plywood/whatever held together with angle brackets.

[Keith Hankins]

I had a water bed back in the day. I recently did a cali king 8 sided pencil post bed. Using bedbolts and it's strong as an ox! It was a laminated bedrail from Charles Neil's plans. It's a great plan and easy to take back down.

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks for the suggestions. I hadn't considered traditional bed hardware because I wasn't sure it would hold. I also wanted to do a roundover on the corners and I was thinking traditional bed hardware wouldn't work. But you've given me some things to think about.

John, you are obviously clueless as to waterbed fashion today. Fuzzy zebra trim and leatherette and leatherette upholstery went out in the 80's. Today we use faux leopard trim and purple velvet upholstery.

[Jack Wilson50]

This is a link to the hidden bed bolt hardware.

http://www.rockler.com/bed-rail-connection-system

[pat warner]

"Besides the finger joint, is there another corner joint that could be used for this application?"
************************************************
Joint connector bolts. (http://patwarner.com/images/connector_bolt.jpg)

[Ted Calver]

I had to get rid of my water bed after I saw Jaws:D

[Kenneth Walton]

I used these: http://www.rockler.com/heavy-duty-universal-connector

With loose tenons above and below(unglued on one side). That bed could survive an earthquake.

[Julie Moriarty]

This is a pretty interesting corner joint. It looks simple to assemble and strong enough to do the job. I'm just not sure if those protrusions at the corners would be knee bangers.

http://www.cmstatic1.com/10407/10407.49420.jpg

[Julie Moriarty]

I just found how the post is cut. I'm liking this. :)

https://spunjinworks.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/img_3186.jpg

Another version of the same concept, though if I used it I wouldn't angle the interior sides of the post. Due to the weight, I'll still have to have a support frame under the bed. And I'm planning on putting drawers in the base. I doubt I can find 8"x8" stock in any wood at the hardwood store so I'd have to do a glue-up for the posts. I like the no metal hardware and the absence of the need for tools to assemble and disassemble.

http://tatamiroom.com/big_image/TB6382.jpg

[Bill ThompsonNM]

That looks like a winner Julie. Nice looking, good show of craftsmanship and very functional!

[Mel Fulks]

looks like a puzzle someone next to you on a flight might be working.

[Huck Schwee]

There is always the simple tusked tenon. Of course, like some of the above, there could be some knee banging issues.

298313

[John Coloccia]

I like it, Julie! I would personally still consider some hardware attaching the frame to the support underneath, to keep the wood from bowing out over time.

[roger wiegand]

M&T with traditional bedbolts. Still nothing better!

[Julie Moriarty]

I like it, Julie! I would personally still consider some hardware attaching the frame to the support underneath, to keep the wood from bowing out over time.

Yes, you still need some method for keeping the sides from bowing out. Right now that's being done with small angle brackets I probably bought at Ace Hardware. For this build, I was thinking of using dowels. The bottom of the side boards will have a rabbet, where they meet the MDF platform base, and I could put some dowels around the perimeter there. I'm trying to eliminate metal hardware and the need for tools to assemble the bed.

I was at the hardwood store yesterday and was surprised I couldn't find what I needed. The 8/4 African mahogany stock had been decimated. I looked through their stock of maple, cherry, walnut, sapele, shedua, padauk, Santos mahogany, alder and even rift sawn red oak to try to find 8/4 x 9+" in the lengths I needed, and that also matched somewhat in grain and color. I struck out. I almost went for 16/4 AM thinking I could resaw it. The existing frame is 87"x63" so I was looking for boards in the 6' and 8' length. What I wasn't prepared for was spending almost $600 for just the four side boards.

In my mind's eye I pictured a fairly straight grained wood in something like this color but I don't know what wood would be best to achieve the look.
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0095/3452/files/Frame-CAT-WBAR_large.jpg?1277
In making the feet, I planned on using a darker, contrasting wood for the four corners. I have a big slab of 10/4 AM that's been looking for a home so I plan to use that. What I was really having a hard time with yesterday was finding wood that I could get to look like the wood in the above picture. About all I could come up with was maple or alder that I'd dye to that color. But in both woods all I could find is flat sawn. With the sides being 9-1/4" tall, I don't think flat sawn wood would look right.

[John Coloccia]

If I had to guess, I'd guess that wood is teak. I don't think switching to teak will help keep costs down, though :)

[ian maybury]

I'd be wary of that joint from a structural pov Julie. The very large section and short length of the leg (increased stability/less leverage) reduces the severity of the potential problem, but the leg and both rails seem all to be at some risk of splitting if the bed is pushed sideways in one or other direction due to the way they are loaded relative to the grain direction. All rely on the cross grain strength of an overhung/cantilevered 'prong' to resist the resulting loads. Probably OK if the bed is used with care, but I wouldn't want older kids fooling about too energetically on it.

It'd need thinking through from the pov of wood movement too. e.g. it would probably be best with a little clearance between the ends of the horizontal webs/flanges to the top of the rails and the sides of the legs to accomodate movement in the width of the leg. The rails would likewise probably seasonally incease and reduce in height a little relative to the depth of the slot/open ended mortise in the leg.

It's a visually very attractive layout. Wonder if a strategically placed countersunk bolt (into the face of/near the top of the leg/parallel to the rails so that it would be largely invisible and pass through what in effect are open ended bridle joints into a threaded insert or similar at the other side of the joint) would be enough to eliminate the structural concern?

[Jeff Fondaw]

Julie - I built a bed recently, platform, not waterbed but was also looking at some of your same designs. But since I'm cheap and wanted to experiment I built my bed from laminated plywood (3 layers), rather than solid wood. I used a corner joint which both secured the corner but also supported the rails, tied together with carriage bolts (painted black to dress them up, stolen from the Wood Whisperer). The corner supports are also built up from laminated plywood. Headboard supports are also plywood, with solid wood cross members. Total cost was approx $200.

298367298368298369298370298371

[Jon Nuckles]

I built a bed a few months ago and wanted the strength of a mortise and tenon with a bed bolt (IMO, there is no knock-down option as strong), but the bolt covers did not go with my design. I found a method for hiding the bolts in Jeff Miller's book on beds, which I modified slightly for my project. It is similar to the method Jamie and Jack mention in posts 7 and 11, above, but does not rely on a threaded insert. Instead, you inlay a nut into the outside cheek of a long tenon in the head and foot rails before gluing them into the legs/corner posts. The bolt is inserted via a pocket cut on the inside face of the side rail, which has a short tenon, through a bit of the leg/corner and into the mating tenon and nut. Lining things up is a little fussy, but not difficult, and you get a rock solid joint with no visible hardware. The pictures below should help explain things better than words (try to ignore the walnut/maple blend; the walnut I had was not the best quality and I had to glue it up to get the thickness I wanted anyway, so I used some hard maple for strength in areas it would not be seen).
298377298378

[Julie Moriarty]

That's an ingenious way to hide the hardware, Jon. Actually, I like the look of the walnut and maple. How many pieces were used in the laminate?

[Yonak Hawkins]

Julie, I don't think there's as much outward pressure on the sides of water beds as you may think. If I'm not mistaken, most water beds these days are made with foam sides. However, I wouldn't recommend that on your bed without knowing the makeup of your mattress.

[Dave Zellers]

All these beautiful applications notwithstanding, I still like the idea of a 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" or 2" x 2" finger jointed frame with the fingers extending by 1/4", perfectly rounded over, sanded to perfection, and a 3'8" pin (bolt) inserted into a 13/32" hole.

Design the corner top finials the bolt will screw into and send the plans down to the shop for construction.

Then it's off to Barbados until they text you when it's done.

Or am I dreaming?

I think I'm dreaming.

But I still like it.

Oh, and water beds don't have legs. They sit on the floor where the purple velour sheets contrast the shag carpet.

Now-a-days the bong on the floor holds the water pic. Or the Sonic Care. :)

Take care in rejecting original thoughts. Not to say it shouldn't be done ...

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, I don't think there's as much outward pressure on the sides of water beds as you may think. If I'm not mistaken, most water beds these days are made with foam sides. However, I wouldn't recommend that on your bed without knowing the makeup of your mattress.

None of that modern stuff for me. I like the full flotation mattress - "A storm's a brewin' matey!" Years ago, I read an article in a sailing magazine where the author was talking about his family going through getting re-acclimated to sailing each season and his kids having to go through a time of seasickness before they got their sea legs. He and his wife never had that problem but they slept on a full flotation waterbed. So he bought waterbeds for all the kids and the next season none of the kids got seasick. Don't know if there's any real science to that but my experience has been the same. But personally, I've never found a mattress more comfortable.

Dave,

One of the things that make waterbeds look like 70s-ish furniture (to me) is the pine 2x10 box the mattress sits in, atop a legless raised platform. I wasn't thinking of making legs until I saw that Japanese joinery used on a Tatami bed. I will probably be committing a sin by making the changes I'll be making (I have yet to find any evidence the Japanese ever built waterbed frames) but if I do it right, it could be very pleasing to the eye, except maybe to the very traditional Japanese woodworkers. They might ask me to commit seppuku!

Since I can't find hinoki or tamo :rolleyes:, I'm leaning toward alder, if I can find the dimensions I need. If not, then I'll probably use rift sawn RO. I at least want to buy the wood before we move, because SE Florida seems to be a hardwood desert.

[Jon Nuckles]

Julie,
There are 3 pieces in each rail. One wide walnut for the outside face, and walnut above maple for the inside face. You only see walnut once the mattress is in place.