Shaper cutter- Euro Block or Corrugated cutterhead?

[Max Neu]

I mostly use carbide insert cutters for all my most often used profiles like doors,edge details etc.I also have quite a few brazed cutters for the less often used profiles,along with a 5" Weinig corrugated cutterhead for making some moldings in very short runs when i need a small amount of crown molding out of a species thet no one stocks.I was planning on getting a smaller corrugated cutterhead (somewhere in the 1 1/2"-2 1/2" range)for those times when I need to have a smaller profile matched,or just want a new profile that won't get used that often.I realise I could use my 5" cutterhead and add filler pieces for smaller knives,but I would rather not.
Not too long along I was reading a thread where some guy's mentioned using "Euro Blocks", (I think Peter Quinn, J.R. Rutter )so that got me thinking maybe that would be another option.I would like to here from some shaper guy's what the pro's/con's are between the 2 different cutterheads.Here are a few points I would like to point out for my situation;

I am not that concerned about the upfront cost,looking more at the long term investment.
I don't grind my own cutters,I will have them made and sharpened by others.
The shaper is a Martin ( 8 or 9hp),so size and weight of cutterhead doesn't matter.
Everything will be powerfed,so the safety features of the Euro block aren't that critical for my needs.

Also,I am not stuck on Wenig,(that's what the salesman that sold me my shaper got me)I am open to suggestions for other brands if I decide to get another corrugated cutterhead.I was also wondering if the quality of steel is as good or better with a Euro block? That's important to me since I don't sharpen my own cutters.Looking forward to any input and suggestions.

[Peter Quinn]

The euro block I run uses 4MM thick cutters, that limits the depth of cut to roughly 5/8". The euro block system has a few hundred stock profiles available very cheap relative to having custom knives ground for a corrugated head, so when one of those profiles suits my needs or I can be flexible it's a win. But otherwise I've never had knives ground for the euroblock, I enquired about it with each of the two grinding shops I've used and both basically said "why bother". The blank inserts are a little bit cheaper on a per inch of steel basis, but the grinding cost are the same, the corrugated knives are thicker, thus they dissipate heat better for longer life, and can be resharpened several times from the pattern, the euro block not so much. Many custom profiles I've needed are just out of the range of depth of the euro block anyway. I have a Schmidt corrugated head that accepts up to 3/8" knives (like WKW carbide insert Bak Pak system), so no limitation there.

The euro blocks come in a thicker format steel too, but I haven't seen stock inserts available here in US so there seems little point to adopt a system other than that which most grinding shops already use. That's my $.02. In a nutshell, stock euro block patterns are cheaper than router bits so earn a place in my work, for custom profiles it's corrugated.

As to brand of corrugated head, lots of good options. WKW, weinig, Schmidt, most of the euro's have corrugated heads too but many are set up for the double knife system (knife and chip limiter ground to match), which is safer but costs twice as much per pattern. If you regularly hand feed with corrugated inserts that may be an option worth considering. I remember doing some curved rails last year on a corrugated head and at the moment I'm hitting the down hill side of the curve was wishing I had a chip limiter head! I can still count to ten with shoes on but I have more gray hairs because of it.

[J.R. Rutter]

I think Peter hit everything. If euroblock type has stock patterns that you would use, then the convenience of buying off the shelf is tempting. But the corrugated is more versatile. If you get accurate knives and take the time to check knife alignment the results are better than carbide insert. I have some Schmidt heads that have given me good results. Weinig and WKW have excellent reputations as well.

Peter - for chip limiting slots, can you just use a square blank and adjust it with the corrugations to where it comes close to the major diameter of the pattern? I don't have any experience with this sort of head, but if you see yourself hand feeding larger patterns, then this might be the way to go.

[Peter Quinn]

I think Peter hit everything. If euroblock type has stock patterns that you would use, then the convenience of buying off the shelf is tempting. But the corrugated is more versatile. If you get accurate knives and take the time to check knife alignment the results are better than carbide insert. I have some Schmidt heads that have given me good results. Weinig and WKW have excellent reputations as well.

Peter - for chip limiting slots, can you just use a square blank and adjust it with the corrugations to where it comes close to the major diameter of the pattern? I don't have any experience with this sort of head, but if you see yourself hand feeding larger patterns, then this might be the way to go.


I suppose that might work, but I'm working with a 2 knife head, don't actually have the chip limiting pattern and negative head. I'm not really familiar enough with the chip limiter system to know how close to the pattern the limiters have to be ground to provide the effect. I'd guess the square stock would provide some of the benefits of the chip limiters? The boss doesn't seem quick to spend money on that particular accessory, so my present solution is...very large pattern!

[Joe Calhoon]

Max,
I have a couple Euro blocks with assorted cutters and a Bryd corrugated head we use for custom short runs. They both have their uses. The Euro blocks are easy to set up. I have found the steel for these is not very good and dulls quickly in hardwood. I have been told better steel is available and also carbide. We tried having these custom ground a couple times but I think corrugated is better for this. And as mentioned better cut quality and longer lasting.

Peter, I had a chance to use a Leitz corrugated head with limiters at the Martin factory. The cut was better than I have ever experienced with this type head. Hand feeding a large crown moulding profile was effortless. True, it will cost double for the knives but for certain cuts I am willing to go the extra. The limiters have to be ground close to the cutters. I think about .3mm less.

I have been trying t locate this head in the Leitz Lexicon but no luck. I found similar insert heads and a Garniga head that is similar.298237298238

[Joe Calhoon]

I found a picture of the Leitz head. It is like the picture above and not corrugated. I wonder if the corrugated with limiters work as good.
Joe

[Jeff Duncan]

I think it would be a mistake to look at it as an either or decision. They're really just 2 different tools both of which are good to have in the arsenal. Whether or not you can benefit from them depends a bit on the type of work you do. I do a lot of different types of projects, so having the flexibility to do different profiles is great. There are a lot of different situations that come up that don't justify the expense of custom ground knives. Having a small collection of simple profiles ready to go is incredibly handy.

And while you mentioned you don't intend to grind your own, with the thinner steel that goes with Euro blocks can be done pretty easily on your bench grinder in a pinch.

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

Max,
I have a couple Euro blocks with assorted cutters and a Bryd corrugated head we use for custom short runs. They both have their uses. The Euro blocks are easy to set up. I have found the steel for these is not very good and dulls quickly in hardwood. I have been told better steel is available and also carbide. We tried having these custom ground a couple times but I think corrugated is better for this. And as mentioned better cut quality and longer lasting.

Peter, I had a chance to use a Leitz corrugated head with limiters at the Martin factory. The cut was better than I have ever experienced with this type head. Hand feeding a large crown moulding profile was effortless. True, it will cost double for the knives but for certain cuts I am willing to go the extra. The limiters have to be ground close to the cutters. I think about .3mm less.

I have been trying t locate this head in the Leitz Lexicon but no luck. I found similar insert heads and a Garniga head that is similar.298237298238


Joe, are you saying that aside from increased safety the limiter heads offer increased surface quality as well? That might be a benefit I could sell to the superiors.

[Mel Fulks]

I have only used limiters in a couple of dedicated carbide heads. I've always thought of them as just a safety thing. I think
paying up charge for one set of high grade steel knives is always going to beat two sets of low grade. And without paying extra you are going to get low grade almost all of the time.

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, are you saying that aside from increased safety the limiter heads offer increased surface quality as well? That might be a benefit I could sell to the superiors.

Peter, I don't know. I thought it was a corrugated head until I went back through my pictures. It was a very easy cutting head, comparable to insert fine carbide heads. I have a lot of experience with corrugated and lock edge on the shaper and usually hand feed these a few inches setting up. You can normally feel a lot of back pressure with these. This one pushed so easy it was scary. The beauty of corrugated it is fast and inexpensive to get. I am sure the knives for the Leitz head are proprietary but I am going to check costs and lead time.

Joe

[Max Neu]

I appreciate all the info. everyone has given.Now I understand more about the Euro block.I was under the impression that getting custom profiles for them was as practical as getting them made for a corrugated head,but that doesn't appear to be the case.I will look into the profiles available for some of the Euro blocks,but I am leaning towards another corrugated head.Now that I have more of an understanding between the 2 styles,I will probably take Jeff D's advise and eventually have both.I do have a couple more questions,what would be the max. depth I could get out of a corrugated head?,can I get knives from anyone,regardless of which head I get? for example,if I had a bryd head,could I get the knives from Weinig?

[jack forsberg]

the most common pin knifes come 4mm thick but you can get 5.5mm in the 60mm head pin and i do believe that the 50mm that fit the 40mm heads come in 5.5mm . the limiters are 4 mm in all cases. Carbide can be had in a limited number of profiles to fit the standard EU heads.

Whitehill is the/ a world leader in pin knifes and are 6mm thick . you need a whitehill head as there not the EU standard pin spacing. Knifes come in 3 metel grades A/A1/A2 and widths of 30 /55/65/80/100mm with pin spacing of 12/24/30/40. Profile area on the knife is up to 24mm depth.

they have more than a dozen head type to pick from i think there combo heads are clever.

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they also offer corrugated heads and tooling with limiters if that's your bag.

http://www.whitehill-tools.com/documents/Whitehill2011BroLR.pdf

[Mel Fulks]

I think the widest steel sold is 3 inches, so that gives you an idea of max possible cut. Which (like anything else)might or
might not be safe. Some favor one brand of head over another ,beyond that you specify size of spindle and
sweep (cut angle) , and there are two or three diameter sizes. When you order knives you need to tell them angle of head or they might cut too long or too short.

[jack forsberg]

I think the widest steel sold is 3 inches, so that gives you an idea of max possible cut. Which (like anything else)might or
might not be safe. Some favor one brand of head over another ,beyond that you specify size of spindle and
sweep (cut angle) , and there are two or three diameter sizes. When you order knives you need to tell them angle of head or they might cut too long or too short.

max Projection is 3 times thickness as a general rule. but you have to take things like spikes in the profile into account. Most saw doctors/Saw sharping services will grind blanks for you in the head mel and that is the best way for pin knifes anyway so rake wont mater in that case. You need to tell your grinder if it for curve work to so you get proper side grind.

[Mel Fulks]

Jack, I know you don't pay any attention to specs written by lawyers! Good point though on the side clearance ,that needs
to be there whether or not the work piece is curved,very irritating to order knives to cut a half round and start to see some
burn after just a few pieces of work. Even when I have sent a detailed drawing with "must have 5 degree side clearance"
a few times it did not get done.

[jack forsberg]

Mel i grind my own pin knifes by eye and it takes about a hour to do a new profile. side clearance grind will increase with the tightness of the curve thickness of the knife and still maintain support for spikes. This is why i use pin knifes as a 40mm profile cost about $25 .if you have this service done for you when you order you need to tell them everything because it not done in the head. As to lawyers papers i find them useful as replacement pages in the sears catalog in the out house.

[Mel Fulks]

Not much to disagree with there. I have not even seen a pin knife. Still say that with the corg knives if they don't grind
them in a head of the same sweep angle they can be a little off. For years I've used a home made "sweep rule" to lay out
Slotted head shaper collar profiles to hand grind but everyone else I've ever worked with preferred trial and error and that works too.

[jack forsberg]

Not much to disagree with there. I have not even seen a pin knife. Still say that with the corg knives if they don't grind
them in a head of the same sweep angle they can be a little off. For years I've used a home made "sweep rule" to lay out
Slotted head shaper collar profiles to hand grind but everyone else I've ever worked with preferred trial and error and that works too.

when you say sweep rule do you mean one of theses
http://awwm.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/dscf1440.jpg?w=450&h=337

[jack forsberg]

there is always the one knife grind with a slug balance. Point is pin knifes are made to grind in house. A skill a mill man should have IMO

[Mel Fulks]

Haven't seen one like that. Mine is the DIY one shown in the old delta shaper manual and other sources. I draw the needed profile on a 1/8 inch grid and beside it draw grid with the vertical lines drawn by the sweep rule. Then it's just kinda "connect the dots " type thing. I've even drawn them on milk carton plastic at my kitchen table to take in ready for
next day grinding. It just makes sure you don't have to set up,test cut,grind some and test again. Made for 3 inch slotted
collars and totally useless for anything else.

[jack forsberg]

Haven't seen one like that.

Mel there a stickerman rule


The first step using a molder or stickerman's rule is to determine the cutting circle for the head you aresetting the rule to use. This will establish the surfacing line at the “0” of the rule scale. If you know the
circle to be a certain projection beyond the lips of the cutter head set the bottom of the rule to that
distance from the turned edge by loosening the three screws in the body of the rule.
Cutting circles can vary. A machine may have data that says one thing while the actual machine is
different. Some heads have been re-conditioned. The lips are dressed down and the knife surfaces are
trued.
When the rules were developed, they were primarily developed for those using square head babbitt
bearing machines and favoring combination or multiple knife set ups. The ability to adjust to a machine
condition was key to getting accurate use of the rule. For instance, if the pour in the bearings was not
perfect or if it has worn more one side than the other, an adjustment to the knives to make a flat board
may be required. It is a feature of the rule that this adjustment to the cutting circle can be made.
Molders also have elevated and lead set feed rolls which can affect the behavior of the material as it
passes under the top head. The weighted chip breaker will also factor in the true surfacing line location.
A good way to find the surfacing line is to place a planed board in the machine and crank the bed up
towards the head. Place card stock equal in thickness to the amount of material you want to remove at
the top head under the feed rolls and over the board. Bring the bed up to a firm and square engagement
with the rolls. Advance the rolls slightly by hand to see the imprint of the rolls in the card stock. It
should be even across the width of the material. Some molders have devices to keep rolls in parallel but
many older machines have back hinged rolls shafts. Once this looks good, see what the distance from
the head to the board looks like. If it is more than a quarter inch, the machine may not have the correct
heads. If you can bring the bed higher and retain the nice even engagement with the rolls, do so until
the head is about an 1/8 inch from the wood.
Now take the shorter of the knife bolts – the ones you will want to use for surfacing – and put them in a
slot in the head. Rotate the head so that they are upside down. If they strike the wood, you will need to
lower the bed, or, grind the bolts down. Just not too short to fully engage the nut when knives are
secured.
If the bolts are clear then finger tight install a head w

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=11145

if i am not matching and developing a new shape i have done at the drafting table a full scale drawing of the shape and than the rake angle of the head to the side of that . then i draw lines of the molding across with the drafting fence and were it intersects the rake angle I draw lines at 90 to give the projection shape to grind too. I guess computers do this now.

The thing i like about pin knifes is there easy to set up. I made a shoe for my Planer Head to hole pin knifes.
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/head006_zpse0a4ab9d.jpg

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/head009_zps9ee56735.jpg





http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/head014_zpsf7746612.jpg

These knifes are just free hand grind using a drafting maker size.05 to grind to but i just picked up a Viel for $200 so life is good.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/head016_zpsdfa059a6.jpg

here is how it cuts


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lB21cGbugY&list=UUI6jpIs2zjN9DmVvK2ZAWXA


http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/RMmoulder002_zps970c59d8.jpg

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/chips002_zps5de6cda8.jpg

[Mel Fulks]

That is different ,certainly interesting,have not seen that before. There is one other thing my rule can be used for.
If you need to cut something like a small ogee or cove that must match a sample provided by customer and the knives you have cut too small ,the sweep rule will show how much bigger you can make the cut by moving the knife farther out. IF the knives are long enough, and
IF you don't need the ball bearing. In other words you can squeeze ,maybe another sixteenth , by putting the part of the
knife in a different cutting circle. Much better than the mindless constant grinding often seen. And if you will be using a
knife that cuts a big profile you can tell how big by measuring with the sweep rule, yeah you can get an idea by holding
the knife on an angle but the sweep rule is exact. The pin knives are interesting and new to me.

[Joe Calhoon]

I appreciate all the info. everyone has given.Now I understand more about the Euro block.I was under the impression that getting custom profiles for them was as practical as getting them made for a corrugated head,but that doesn't appear to be the case.I will look into the profiles available for some of the Euro blocks,but I am leaning towards another corrugated head.Now that I have more of an understanding between the 2 styles,I will probably take Jeff D's advise and eventually have both.I do have a couple more questions,what would be the max. depth I could get out of a corrugated head?,can I get knives from anyone,regardless of which head I get? for example,if I had a bryd head,could I get the knives from Weinig?

Max, I have been looking at the latest profiles for the euro blocks and think the have improved a lot since I bought mine. If you are not doing your own grinding the corrugated will be easier. Several companies do this with fast turnaround on the common thicknesses and will be very precise and axial constant for easy setup. I usually do a quick cad drawing of the profile or send a wood sample if a restoration. I have had none of the issues Jack and Mel mention about outsourcing these. I have thought about grinding my own but in a busy 2 - 3 man shop we just do not have the time. Maybe in my retirement shop..

As Jack says recommended cutter projection is 3X knife thickness. We have gone 1 1/2" with 5/16 knives with no issues though. The good thing with your Martin tilting shaper you can have the knives ground at 45 or 22 1/2 degrees to get more depth of cut with less knife projection. See the picture of a deep raised panel cutter tilted and a large cove cutter on the corrugated head in the second picture made to be tilted. The tilting will save you money on knives also. You can tilt existing profiles to get different shapes. A lot of times for short run historic work we can match old profiles by tilting or a couple passes tilted with standard cove or bead knives.

I have a Byrd head. It was inexpensive but there are better. With standard corrugated heads you will be able to get the knives from several sources.

Joe
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[Joe Calhoon]

Haven't seen one like that. Mine is the DIY one shown in the old delta shaper manual and other sources. I draw the needed profile on a 1/8 inch grid and beside it draw grid with the vertical lines drawn by the sweep rule. Then it's just kinda "connect the dots " type thing. I've even drawn them on milk carton plastic at my kitchen table to take in ready for
next day grinding. It just makes sure you don't have to set up,test cut,grind some and test again. Made for 3 inch slotted
collars and totally useless for anything else.

Mel, the Delta shaper book brings back a lot of memories. I have a 1946 copy of the book. 36 years ago or so we had 2 Delta shapers with most of the accessories shown in the book. That book was my shaper bible for several years. At that time no dust collection or power feeders. I remember waist high piles of shavings when making cabinet doors.

I just spent some time looking through it again.

Joe

[jack forsberg]

Joe for those with out a tilting head Whitehill offers a 30 head.

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[Max Neu]

Max, I have been looking at the latest profiles for the euro blocks and think the have improved a lot since I bought mine. If you are not doing your own grinding the corrugated will be easier. Several companies do this with fast turnaround on the common thicknesses and will be very precise and axial constant for easy setup. I usually do a quick cad drawing of the profile or send a wood sample if a restoration. I have had none of the issues Jack and Mel mention about outsourcing these. I have thought about grinding my own but in a busy 2 - 3 man shop we just do not have the time. Maybe in my retirement shop..

As Jack says recommended cutter projection is 3X knife thickness. We have gone 1 1/2" with 5/16 knives with no issues though. The good thing with your Martin tilting shaper you can have the knives ground at 45 or 22 1/2 degrees to get more depth of cut with less knife projection. See the picture of a deep raised panel cutter tilted and a large cove cutter on the corrugated head in the second picture made to be tilted. The tilting will save you money on knives also. You can tilt existing profiles to get different shapes. A lot of times for short run historic work we can match old profiles by tilting or a couple passes tilted with standard cove or bead knives.

I have a Byrd head. It was inexpensive but there are better. With standard corrugated heads you will be able to get the knives from several sources.

Joe
298347298348

Joe,
That's a great idea to tilt the head to get larger profiles to save on tooling costs.I would prefer to keep the head at 90 degrees with a bigger cutter for cuts I do on a regular basis,but that would be a great option when I need a large cutter to match a profile for 1 job,which is why I will be buying another corrugated head.I do use the tilting feature fairly often on my shaper,mostly for creating bevel cuts with a straight cutter,and some pretty nice looking corner beads using bullnose cutters.

[jack forsberg]

Joe how come you ran that flat on the table and than got the knifes ground to 45 so there not hanging out a mile. Would it not have been better to run the panel on an out side fence and vertical? that a lot of field too on the panel was there a mould around it? i know you guys got no time to grind knifes not that its hard but what the cost of knifes like that? i sure would be nice to know what i am making a hour to grind my own.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Jack,
The flat on those small panels was about 3 1/2" square. We thought about running them vertical but quickly figured out that was not a good idea. We also thought about a large 3 wing custom carbide but ended up with this. It worked well for 80 + panels in a 12' high pair of southwest style doors. We had a enclosed sled and ran them with the power feed. Tedious but safe. We built these for a high end cabinet mfg that did not want to tackle custom doors. They had a moulder operation and ground the knives in-house. Yes, they did have applied moldings. This was all to the architects design.

When we order them in the cost is usually $60 to $100 for 2" to 3" knives. Per pair, precision ground and axial constant. This is 5/16 corrugated. The standard 4mm Euro block knives are not worth it to custom grind because they dull so fast. For any custom moldings the customer pays for the knives, set up and any drawing I have to do. We keep the knives. By now we have a pretty good collection.

Joe

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[jack forsberg]

Hi Jack,
The flat on those small panels was about 3 1/2" square. We thought about running them vertical but quickly figured out that was not a good idea. We also thought about a large 3 wing custom carbide but ended up with this. It worked well for 80 + panels in a 12' high pair of southwest style doors. We had a enclosed sled and ran them with the power feed. Tedious but safe. We built these for a high end cabinet mfg that did not want to tackle custom doors. They had a moulder operation and ground the knives in-house. Yes, they did have applied moldings. This was all to the architects design.

When we order them in the cost is usually $60 to $100 for 2" to 3" knives. Per pair, precision ground and axial constant. This is 5/16 corrugated. The standard 4mm Euro block knives are not worth it to custom grind because they dull so fast. For any custom moldings the customer pays for the knives, set up and any drawing I have to do. We keep the knives. By now we have a pretty good collection.

Joe

298415

i see now that you hogged off most of the cut first Joe. not that you like the pin knifes but there are more heads to pick from than the corrugated and really the reason its is taking the stage for custom in tool steel knifes of 6mm knifes. you might want to check out the panel heads(top or bottom) that cut up to 75mm deep that just shy of 3" and i am sure you could have spline the grove for the molding to take up the 1/2" anyway(good way for a molding to attach too). you could have used the cope head i showed if you were doing more than one pass to cut that profile with off the shelf knifes too if time was a problem and you were on a dead line. You must have scraped some of them ones with knots:D in them

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[Joe Calhoon]

i see now that you hogged off most of the cut first Joe. not that you like the pin knifes but there are more heads to pick from than the corrugated and really the reason its is taking the stage for custom in tool steel knifes of 6mm knifes. you might want to check out the panel heads(top or bottom) that cut up to 75mm deep that just shy of 3" and i am sure you could have spline the grove for the molding to take up the 1/2" anyway(good way for a molding to attach too). you could have used the cope head i showed if you were doing more than one pass to cut that profile with off the shelf knifes too if time was a problem and you were on a dead line.

298445
Jack,
Can you tell me something new?:) We did run 2 passes on those. Don't worry about it too much, it was a one time job and we were able to get it out the door quick. We do a lot of jobs like this and corrugated works well for this kind of work. I know about the 6mm pin knives and was about to invest in Whitehill gear but found out from a UK woodworker something better is coming from Italy soon. I have Garniga multi profile 230mm diameter panel raisers that make an exceptional cut and very deep if needed. I also have 10 or so 3 wing carbide panel raisers from years ago. Still architects will request something different and they have to buy knives.
We have done the panels for raised applied moldings both by burying the panel and with the spline used as a seat. Burying the panel is better except when you have IG mixed with the panels.

So, I have been considering grinding my own knives for a few years and acquiring the bits and pieces needed. We have had a Martin T90 for 14 years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA-BosQ06Ew
It is the workhorse of our shop. The 4mm moulding inserts have to come from Germany so it is not a quick turn around for custom jobs.
I picked up a Tersa head with a 1 13/16" bore that fits a Weinig grinder.
298490
These are 4 mm knives but really high quality compared to the Euroblock knives and insert into the Tersa Head. I have a source in Germany for the blanks.
298491
298492

It has to be precise grinding because the zero has to line up with the Tersa cutting circle. I am on the lookout for a used Weinig grinder. I would probably do most of my grinding for other items if we get set up and acquire the 6mm heads.
I would still order my blanks pre cut with a water jet to save grinding wheels and time.

Joe

[Joe Calhoon]

You must have scraped some of them ones with knots:D in them



Jack,
We know knotty walnut well. The problem we have with rustic timber is our shaping and planing is too precise.
We have to go back and hand plane everything everything to make it right.
Here is a 24' Lift Slide unit we did a while back. Hand planed and distressed.
298495298496298497

We just finished the front door for the job and ready to impregnate it in the morning.
298498
Joe

[Mel Fulks]

Joe, looks like that worked fine. Some of those things I find easier running wide short pieces on the end grain with a pc of plywood tacked under
then cutting them into squares , lining them up under a piece of plywood and stapling . Then feeder can run the assemblies on long grain. I find the actual machining time at shaper is greatly reduced. Some keep a box of uncoated
staples on hand to make removing from plywood easier. And sometimes a helper is available to do the stapling and removing.

[jack forsberg]

thanks Joe i would like to hear how the Italian cutters turn out. As you may not know Whitehill goes back more than 100 years and supplyed Wadkin as far back a the 50s so they are well known in England. I just wanted to point out that hanging the knife projection out that far can kill the quality of cut and be somewhat at risk of snapping a knife with to heavy a cut. It was a good idea to have hogged off most of the material in that cut. I think some may be are under the impression that your set up there is with in the tooling spec and some one that just drop one heads may get them safe into trouble. One thing that the Pin knife offer is the fact that they can't be ground beyond the spec projection.

here is how i run small panel




small panel i run in a box but Mel idea is a good one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqZkxEMuZYg&list=UUI6jpIs2zjN9DmVvK2ZAWXA

[Joe Calhoon]

. I just wanted to point out that hanging the knife projection out that far can kill the quality of cut and be somewhat at risk of snapping a knife with to heavy a cut. It was a good idea to have hogged off most of the material in that cut. I think some may be are under the impression that your set up there is with in the tooling spec and some one that just drop one heads may get them safe into trouble.

Jack those are strong words for someone who makes moldings on a jointer:D. Your methods provide good humor though.

Like I said don't get too hung up on that method. I can think of a dozen ways that could have been done. What made this challenging was not only the depth of cut from the edge but the depth from the face was 30mm plus. Normally the sliding table works well for small panels.

Sure, that is a extreme example but I just wanted to point out to Max the versatility of his tilting shaper. When we got ours I did not think the tilt would be used much but we keep finding ways to tackle odd and difficult jobs with it.

Joe

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, looks like that worked fine. Some of those things I find easier running wide short pieces on the end grain with a pc of plywood tacked under
then cutting them into squares , lining them up under a piece of plywood and stapling . Then feeder can run the assemblies on long grain. I find the actual machining time at shaper is greatly reduced. Some keep a box of uncoated
staples on hand to make removing from plywood easier. And sometimes a helper is available to do the stapling and removing.

Thanks Mel,
Great idea about the uncoated staples. I will look into picking up some of those. would be good for a lot of things.

Joe

[Mel Fulks]

You can still hog off first just by moving the fence, and using 3/8 thick steel adds a lot of strength.

[jack forsberg]

You can still hog off first just by moving the fence, and using 3/8 thick steel adds a lot of strength.


I agree this is where corrugated pays off as you can get thicker steel. was your head limited to 5/16" Joe?

[Mel Fulks]

Jack all the corg heads I've seen would take either thickness. I've been told by some tech people that the common
semi high speed steel is harder to break but I much prefer the finish of true high speed and just try to use it carefully.

[Joe Calhoon]

I agree this is where corrugated pays off as you can get thicker steel. was your head limited to 5/16" Joe?

Yes, 3/8 and 5/16 is what we use.

Mel, have you ever used the Black nitride knives. I am thinking about using it for longer runs.
joe

[Mel Fulks]

Haven't even heard of it 'till now, Joe. Retired and losing ground, I guess.

[Joe Calhoon]

Haven't even heard of it 'till now, Joe. Retired and losing ground, I guess.
I had not seen them either but helped a home shop guy set up a Corrigated head and he had them.
a description here
http://www.mouldingknives-quickly.com/
I tell people I am semi retired. Not sure that is working out though. 30 hrs a week is my goal.
Joe

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks for update Joe. Now I do remember seeing a description but beyond that nothing. I took a moment to read all the
steel desriptions in the link and noticed that they have M2 and M2+with the latter being cheaper than M2....WHAT!?.
I don't think there is any such thing,someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Most ads at least restrain themselves to
calling their cheapest steel "similar to.." or "same hardness as " M2. If your company is not using real M2 or T1 ,
THAT is what I would try first. I guarantee you will see improvement in surface and edge life.

[jack forsberg]

Thanks for update Joe. Now I do remember seeing a description but beyond that nothing. I took a moment to read all the
steel desriptions in the link and noticed that they have M2 and M2+with the latter being cheaper than M2....WHAT!?.
I don't think there is any such thing,someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Most ads at least restrain themselves to
calling their cheapest steel "similar to.." or "same hardness as " M2. If your company is not using real M2 or T1 ,
THAT is what I would try first. I guarantee you will see improvement in surface and edge life.


case harden M2:eek::eek::eek: it would be hard to say if the EDM cutting would not just take the hardness out of the .010 thickness in the Black M2?

I had always wounder why T alloy had not made it into the corrugated knife stock.
T-Alloy is a cast alloy comprised of cobalt, chromium, tungsten, columbium and carbon. It is melted in electric furnaces and cast in chill molds. Ideal for natural woods, T-Alloy is not to be used on man made materials. While not able to withstand as much heat as carbide, T-Alloy cutters can be made sharper and are highly resistant to shock and impact. T-Alloy is for use on natural woods where the feed rate can be kept high enough to allow the cutter to cut rather than rub the wood. Free born is the only maker i know of using it in the fill body brazed tipped cutters and have so for many years