Anti Kickback devices

[John Gregory]

With the MJ splitter discussion, I was thinking of other TS safety devices. I saw this (http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=96974) for the first time on a David Marks show and bought it a couple of years ago. I checked out the board buddies, but preferred this device. It is easy to use. I mostly use it for cutting sheet goods.

This is not a endorsement of the site sell this device. I just never found it anywhere else.

[Dan Stuewe]

John,

I really like the idea of these and the board buddies. Can you let us know why you prefered these over the board buddies?

Thanks

[Ken Garlock]

Now that looks like a real tool :) I assume that is all steel and should outlast the owner. I wonder if the "tires" can be angled a little toward the fence to assist in keeping the stock against the fence.

[John Gregory]

Yes Ken they can be angled, The first setting is 15*, help draw the the work towards the fence.

Dan, I have had these two years and I cannot remember why I liked them better. I almost bought the board buddies at Woodcraft, but then put them back on the shelf. "if" I recall correctly. It was because the board buddies had two models, bi-directional and clockwise. The one I bought can do both. And the one I bought is very easy to put on my fence and remove. Just seconds and the adjustment is easy and fast.

Here is what Woodcraft says about the board buddies
Board Buddies®
This is an amazing hold down and anti-kickback device. Each set of Board Buddies comes complete and ready to install on your fence or fixture. Yellow Buddies rotate in a clock-wise direction and will not rotate counter-clockwise preventing kickback on table saw and router tables. Green Buddies rotate in either direction so they are great for shapers where they act as a hold-down, not an anti-kickback device. Rather than permanently mounting them to your machinery, the 24" track allows you to move the Buddies from one machine to another.

[Tom Jones III]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but what about this disclaimer in the second bullet point " (no kickback protection provided)."

[Sam Blasco]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but what about this disclaimer in the second bullet point " (no kickback protection provided)."

Not sure about that, buy I have been using mine for years and have really liked them. I found them more adjustable and adaptable when compared to the boards buddies.

[Mark Carlson]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but what about this disclaimer in the second bullet point " (no kickback protection provided)."

If I'm ready this right, the 2nd bullet is for a hold down only mode where the wheels can rotate in both directions, thus nullify the anti kickback feature.

Can this thing be mounted directly to a B-meyer type fence or do you need to use an auxiliary fence?

[Bob Smalser]

This is where I really have a bone to pick with the power tool companies and their shills.

All this is a complete waste of dough on a 10" saw, fellas. You are being fed a bill of goods if you believe these to be anything but nice-to-have. But more importantly, the wrong thing is receiving emphasis here....gizmos instead of technique.

A 12" or 14" saw is a bit different and benefits from a splitter, and my comments here refer to 10" saws.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4959362/70035116.jpg

Between seasoning and evaluating the wood and jointing the stock before ripping...then using a properly adjusted saw, a good blade, the right push stick and blade height, there is no reason at all to have an uncontrollable kickback your push stick can't handle on a 10" saw. You don't need a fancy fence, either, if yours locks on the far end and is adjustable.

I use the TS daily, and the last incident of any kind I've had was a thrown offcut on a 14" saw in 1985 that was entirely my fault. Back in the '60's I once lost control of a bevel cut on a panel, let go of it, and watched it fly across my uncle's shop. Two incidents...both my, not the saw's/wood's fault... in 40+ years, using maybe 20 saws of all sizes.

What many don't tell you but should is that your fence needs to be adjusted an index card thickness away from the blade at its far end. Do that and the rest and it'll take warp in more board than your saw can handle to throw it.

It ain't blind luck, neither. And it ain't like TS's don't scare the heck outta me, because they still do every day. It's just that these gizmos are downright counterproductive if you believe that they and not technique are gonna prevent an accident.

[Chris Fite]

I am inclined to agree with Bob on this, but I like features that provide a margin of safety. One thing that I like about the Board Buddies is that I can reposition my hands when ripping a long piece without having to worry about the piece lying loose in the saw.

I have had only two kickbacks: one a cutoff that got pulled into the blade under the saw guard, the other was a sheet of plywood that got away from the fence. The anti-kickback pawls caught the plywood, I caught the cutoff.

Different strokes for different folks.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hi John,

I use a couple of Bench Dog plastic feather boards that I mount on my fence to act as a hold down. They work pretty well and don't get in the way too much. But that's one of the key things here I think. THEY CAN GET IN THE WAY WITH PUSH STICKS.

My Bench Dogs don't stick out too much so the only time they get in the way is with narrow rips. They do interfere some times. The gizzmo you're referring to sticks out a little more and will interfere a little more.

In summary I don't like to use anything that interferes too much with proper hold down techniques. Considering how much interference this product causes should be taken into account before buying it.

I'm surprised David Marks uses these because he never uses a splitter or blade guard or any other hold downs. But I'm guessing his technique is REAL good because it looks like all ten are still there. Alan in Md.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

"A 12" or 14" saw is a bit different and benefits from a splitter, and my comments here refer to 10" saws" Bob Smalser

Bob, Are you saying that a 10" saw does NOT benefit from a splitter?

[Jim Becker]

I also own the Lechtung "wheels". They work as advertized in the same manner as "Board Buddies". That said, there are a lot more parts on this version, so you need to check them more often for adjustment and tightness of fasteners. I've already mildly whacked one wheel with the blade when a nut worked itself loose. I rarely use these, but do find them useful to help me keep sheet goods against the fence...something I require less of these days since starting to work with a guided circular saw system (GCSS) for breaking down sheet goods.

[Bob Smalser]

"A 12" or 14" saw is a bit different and benefits from a splitter, and my comments here refer to 10" saws" Bob Smalser

Bob, Are you saying that a 10" saw does NOT benefit from a splitter?

Exactly.

Get one if that gives you some peace of mind.......but under no circumstances think that splitter and not your technique will prevent a kickback.

I'm not running out and buying them for 14" saws, either, unless I'm cutting green oak sawn frames.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Exactly.

Get one if that gives you some peace of mind.......but under no circumstances think that splitter and not your technique will prevent a kickback.

I'm not running out and buying them for 14" saws, either, unless I'm cutting green oak sawn frames.

Bob,

Under what conditions could a kickback occur using a splitter and proper hold down technique of the piece you're cutting? I use a splitter but still have a healthy respect for my saw and what it can do to me. Since a splitter won't let the piece rotate ( in theory) into the blade how does a kickback occur under these conditions? I'm always looking out for things to avoid in my technique. Thanks.

[Mark Singer]

I really like the Board Buddies on my tablesaw....Davi Marks uses a similar device. only the rear Board Buddy is needed for most operations. It adds safety and precison ....Technique and understanding of the saw is a key factor....however , Board Buddies and a splitter make certain operations safer and actually improve the cut. Wit 2 rollers there is a downward pressure which improves dados and rabbets. The Board Buddy also keeps the work piece against the fence. I can surely work without them..., but I really feel they improve safety and the performance of the saw.

[Bob Smalser]

Bob,

Under what conditions could a kickback occur using a splitter and proper hold down technique of the piece you're cutting? I use a splitter but still have a healthy respect for my saw and what it can do to me. Since a splitter won't let the piece rotate ( in theory) into the blade how does a kickback occur under these conditions? I'm always looking out for things to avoid in my technique. Thanks.



Have the fence adjusted wrong so the board pinches as it move forward and you have a potentially major problem. Add a dull blade to that equation, and you have a serious accident waiting to happen.

[Mike Cutler]

Bob. I'm going to play a little of the devil's advocate here, so please don't be offended.
I've been pushing wood through tablesaws of one sort or another since I was 11 years old (46 now).I've never had an incidence of kickback. I've had material bind, I've had blades stall and pop breakers. burned a board or two, been whacked in the face by the offcut piece more than once. I've had boards crack due to unseen void pockets and check lines. I'll agree with you that these devices will not stop the root cause of a kickback, but they do seem to be designed to arrest the result of a kickback scenario. If they performed no more than a placebo effect, that in itself could be worth the price.
I've never used one of these devices and my saw is a few thou' out at the end of the fence for clearance.

The point you made that I'm curious about is differentiating between a 10" a 12" and a 14" sawblade. I'll concede that the speed of the blade at the tooth is faster on the larger circumference blades, if RPM is constant, and if horsepower were too remain constant the larger blades would have more rotational mass than the 10". If the angle of the interception of the tooth to the material is capable of creating a kickback in the larger blades, why would it not be true of the smaller 10" blade?
I've read quite abit concerning the different schools of thought on optimal blade height. Some argue that the blade set high will create a down force on the material due to the angle, others argue that the blade should just clear the material, thus imparting less energy to the material during the cutting. The method I learned was that the Gullets should clear the material and be about 1/2' a gullet depth higher. I won't say that it's right, just what I learned in 1971.
I will agree with you completely that technique is the single most important variable, followed closely by setup, yet I still believe these devices offer value, even though I do not own or use them.
It's not my intent to cause offense. I replied to one of your posts and stated that 20 people might respond and a hundred would read and learn.
You've raised some important issues and points, and I'd like to hear you expound on them a bit more.

[Mark Singer]

If you picture in your mind and in slow motion kickback beggining to occur, The board aginst the fence is being lifted off the table by the blade. A propper push stick will hold the work down....if the front was held agaist the table by a roller, it adds to the safety of the push stick...there is a spring force keeping it against the table. In addition the roller only turns one way which does not allow the workpiece to move back toward you. Splitters are most effective on longer boards and especially where there is an internal stress in the lumber causing it to pinch the blade. An effective splitter stays in position and seperates the board reducing the frictional force on the side of the blade and the related kickback. This is unlikely in shorter boards. It is possible to use both Board Buddies and a splitter simultaneously. It is interseting to watch David Marks, who is completly comfortable on the tablesaw...he seems to use the rollers for most cuts....it is not for us, since like myself, he does not use a guard....its for him, why? It is safer and makes a better cut.

[Bob Smalser]

... designed to arrest the result of a kickback scenario. If they performed no more than a placebo effect, that in itself could be worth the price.

The point you made that I'm curious about is differentiating between a 10" a 12" and a 14" sawblade.

I've read quite abit concerning the different schools of thought on optimal blade height.

I will agree with you completely that technique is the single most important variable, followed closely by setup, yet I still believe these devices offer value, even though I do not own or use them.


You said it right there....placebo....so placebo the user doesn't check his saw as often. I want my woodworkers scared and careful on the TS, not happy and overconfident.

Larger saws simply take larger stock and have more power...both of which magnify the consequences of inattentive saw setup leading to a kickback. In my trade, the big saws are often used to cut the large, greenish stock most likely to move during the cut....much greater chance of kickback....greater power when it does...the splitter with a bar welded across it is a good idea when cuttin larger, partially-seasoned stock. When cutting the same (but smaller) stock in a 10" saw and it moves severely, I can overpower both the blade and the motor with the push stick long enuf to either regain control or get out of the way.

And if the fence is adjusted "out" as I describe above, the amount the wood has to move to impinge the blade against the fence is significantly greater than with a dead-parallel fence.

I have the gullets barely clear the stock....there is less blade buried...and what is buried flexes easier than if I had the blade raised to the max.

It's the wood impinging on the sides of the blade pinching it against the fence that throws the wood. Minimize the side contact ...especially the stiffer side contact close to the arbor....and maximize the flex of the blade.

[Roy Wall]

Have the fence adjusted wrong so the board pinches as it move forward and you have a potentially major problem. Add a dull blade to that equation, and you have a serious accident waiting to happen.

Bob,

I see those above as a flaw that will negate "perfect technique". Like you, I have my fence 1/64" spread wider at the back and always use a push stick that is closer to the blade than the fence; ensuring "pressure" towards the fence to keep stock tight. I don't have a splitter or blade guard and have never had problems. However, if the saw was setup wrong in the first place ( as mentioned above) my "perfect technique" may not prevent kickback?? Correct??

Mark Singer showed me those board buddies, and I see no fault in them. They especially look useful in cutting with a dado blade. Kelly Mehler, Lon Schleining, etc....usually show a "shop made" fence hold-down when executing cuts with a dado blade.

FWIW, those same guys did tests using either a splitter or a riving knife in attempting to get a "squarish" board to kick back.......they could not....but without them the boards went flying every time. It seems to be a proven winner???

Great thread:)

[Bob Smalser]

I'm about as low-speed as one can get in the writing game, yet I've received over half a dozen doodads and gizmos sent to me by vendors and manufacturers with the hope I'll say something nice about them or show them in a pic, which is human nature to do.

In fact, after recommending folks in another trade look at Brand "Y" machine in addition to the Brand "X" I use, the folks who make my brand have made a point of sending me all the gizmos they are tacking on in order to compete with the new machine who has those faults covered already. I'm not changing machines as I have all I need in mine....but I'm still telling folks to also look at Brand "Y", too.

There's no "fault" with any of that stuff at all. I just don't need it any of it...and unless you don't have any higher acquisition priorities for your shop...

...likely neither do you.

And when I see a lot of new gizmos on any old pro's machines...or shiny new machines, for that matter...I may give him the benefit of the doubt as being a gizmo lover, but always take all that with a big grain of salt.

Just more consumerism at work.

[Mark Singer]

Once you understand perfect technique it becomes almost automatic....you know what can happen and you are prepared...most of the time. Of course you are working on a project....you have dimensions in your head, details, your thinking about jointing, planning, or joinery ...it is natural and we all have lapses and are distracted from the tablesaw .....if just for an instant. We can all drive down the highhway and stay in our lane.....did you ever wander and hit the Botts dots....just for an instant? It is nice to have something besides just experience as a back up.... Good techniques muscle memory...stance ...propper tunning of the saw....it all helps.

I was on the phone with Alan Turner the other day and we talked a bit about tablesaws....he said between us we have over 60 to 70 years experience!....he is considering Saw Stop for his students....experince is knowledge and I have a great driving record.....I still use my seat belt what is the advantage of leaving it off?

[Bob Smalser]

experince is knowledge and I have a great driving record.....I still use my seat belt what is the advantage of leaving it off?


The only idiot I have to deal with behind the table saw is me. ;)

[Lee DeRaud]

I was on the phone with Alan Turner the other day and we talked a bit about tablesaws....he said between us we have over 60 to 70 years experience!....he is considering Saw Stop for his students....experince is knowledge and I have a great driving record.....I still use my seat belt what is the advantage of leaving it off?Don't know if you meant to, but you backed into the perfect analogy. The seat belt isn't there to handle the results of your screwups, it's there to handle the screwups of other people you have no control over. If I were in a shop full of being run by people of indeterminate skill levels, I'd have every safety widget known to mankind bolted onto them. (Partly for their safety, but mostly for [i]mine.)

I'm also hearing people (not necessarily you) talk about "machine setup/maintenance" and "technique" as if they are two separate things: they're not. If a tool isn't set up correctly and checked and maintained religiously, its owner just flunked the "perfect technique" test, big-time.

[Lee DeRaud]

The only idiot I have to deal with behind the table saw is me. ;)Well, there you go again: 14 words to sum up what I used a whole paragraph to say. :p

[Mark Singer]

I think you summed it up all right....so on a race track running a practice lap ....no other drivers....what the heck just leave the belt off....only one idiot...
Well, there you go again: 14 words to sum up what I used a whole paragraph to say. :p

[Lee DeRaud]

I think you summed it up all right....so on a race track running a practice lap ....no other drivers....what the heck just leave the belt off....only one idiot...If I ever start generating high lateral G-loads operating my table saw, I don't think a Board Buddy is going to help much. :eek: :D

[Mark Singer]

large Lateral forces is eactly what causes kickback...you are driving the board down the fence ...just like a car on the road....it is the lateral forces between the blade and te fence that causes kickback...
If I ever start generating high lateral G-loads operating my table saw, I don't think a Board Buddy is going to help much. :eek: :D

[Lee DeRaud]

large Lateral forces is eactly what causes kickback...you are driving the board down the fence ...just like a car on the road....it is the lateral forces between the blade and te fence that causes kickback...Ya know, there were smilies on that post for a reason...

[Mark Singer]

Lee,

I do like the smiles!

[John Gregory]

This discussion has been interesting. I cannot add anything to what has been said already. But I like Mark's analogy about the seat belts.

I am very careful but....
I am a hobbist, I do this a few hours a week, not 8-10 hours a day
I have been doing it for 3 years not 30-40 years.
Any gizmo (even a seatbelt) than can get me a margin of safety, prevent a trip to the ER, save me from losing a body part is worth it to me. Gizmos do not give me a false sense of safety. I can still get hurt if I do not "mind my P's and Q's" when operating dangerous machinery. I am respectful of the danger that is inherent in every power tool I use.

John

[Lee DeRaud]

Lee, I do like the smiles!No harm, no foul...

Seriously, I'm not sure your second analogy holds up:
"....so on a race track running a practice lap ....no other drivers....what the heck just leave the belt off....only one idiot..."
IMHO, in that situation the seat belt is not being used primarily as a safety device, but as a functional aid to achieving the goal at hand: a fast lap. As your David Marks quote pointed out, some devices are both functional and safety-related. But I seriously doubt his sled was designed primarily as a device to keep his hands clear of the blade while doing crosscuts: that's a side effect of how it works, as opposed to why he uses it in the first place.

I freely admit I have issues with "pure" safety devices, ie the ones that do not contribute directly to the functional goal, for two reasons. One, they can interfere with the function of the device they're attached to, and two, their "placebo effect" can interfere with the function of the only safety device I can actually rely on: the one between my ears. And even that assumes that the device actually works as intended, without introducing an additional failure mode into what is otherwise a rather simple system.

Thus endeth the sermon.:cool:

[Lee DeRaud]

I am very careful but....
I am a hobbist, I do this a few hours a week, not 8-10 hours a day
I have been doing it for 3 years not 30-40 years.You say that like it's a bad thing. :D

There's a tradeoff in effect here. A person in your (or my) situation may be less likely to put his brain in neutral and his hands on autopilot than someone who has been doing it for 8-10 hours a day for 30-40 years. Then again, the long-time pro has honed his instincts to a keen edge over those long hours.

Analogy to another dangerous hobby: there is a big bump in the probabilty curve for motorcycle accidents at about the 12-18 month experience level...long enough to be comfortable, not long enough to have all the skills and muscle memory.

[Mark Singer]

The very first accessory that was added to the tablesaw was the fence....I guess its a gizmo too. If you draw a line and really concentrate....I mean really concentrate....you don't need the fence. After all it is not typically used on a circular saw and if you concentrate you can rip with one.

The fence , just like rollers , Board Buddies or a feather board help guide the work piece....let you relax, still concentrating but at a reasonable level.
And like with the fence it not only adds safety, but you get a better cut....guided and controlled in both directions.

Are we all ready to give up the first gizmo?

[Bill White]

I have the "Buddies", yellow, green (neutral), and orange (counterclockwise). Been usin' 'em on the old RAS for years. They have been very handy, and would cvertainly but them again. But then the RAS is a different "animal" from the TS.

[Bill White]

Mark, I too have been using the "Buddies" for years on the old RAS. Yellow, green and orange. They, along with feather boards, really help. Still have all ten.

[Bill White]

Sorry, didn't think the first one went through.

[Roy Wall]

Mark -

The Fence gizmo, the CC sled gizmo, the featherboard gizmo, --NO WAY!!

I want them all:D :)

Also, didn't you mention to me that you "walk around the TS" quite often to "pull" thin (or narrow) pieces thru the cut??? Because this is safer - and the board buddies allow you to do this?? CORRECT?

[Dave Anderson NH]

You folks have raised a number of good points. My approach is what I feel is the safest. I rarely if ever do rip cuts on the tablesaw. I admit that I rarely use plywood and when I do, I do most of the rough cutting in the garage with a circular saw and then bring it down to my shop in the basement. When I rip solid lumber I use my bandsaw. All of the force is downward into the table and therefore there is no chance of a kickback. With proper setup, the right blade, and a careful steady feed, I can get very nice clean rip cuts which only need a couple of swipes with a jointer plane to clean them up. Try it, you'll like it.

[Chris Padilla]

Dave,

Toss a Lenox carbide blade on your BS and you won't even need a swipe from your jointer plane! However, that wouldn't be too fun, would it? :)

[Mark Singer]

Chris,

I have the Lennox on a great bandsaw and I still do most rippng on the tablesaw...it is more accurate.


Dave,

Toss a Lenox carbide blade on your BS and you won't even need a swipe from your jointer plane! However, that wouldn't be too fun, would it? :)

[Lee Schierer]

The best anti-kick back device resides between your shoulders. If you don't use your head and think about the cut being made and use the safety devices you have on hand you are going to have kick backs.

The best device is the one that gets used regularly, period.

I have tried several of the devices mentioned thus far, but found they were awkward to use or required as much time to set up as it took to make the cut.

I watched a demo at a wood show for Grip Tites and tried them. They install in less than 10 seconds and come off in 10 seconds. They work very well. And most importantly I use them because they are easy to use and rarely get in the way of what I'm doing. Grip Tite (http://grip-tite.com/) I have no affiliation with them just a very satisfied customer. You can also see them at my web site.

[Keith Hooks]

And it ain't like TS's don't scare the heck outta me, because they still do every day.
I'm glad I'm not the only one :D

[Don Baer]

I'm glad I'm not the only one :D

My 20 something year old son came over a few months ago and wanted me to rip some boards for him. He has used hand tools before but never used the table saw. I decided it was a good time for him to learn. After showing him how to set up the fence etc and showing him the proper way to handle the material and where to stand I stoodback and on the opposite side of the saw and told him to turn on the saw. I still remember the look on his face when the saw started and the blade came up to speed. It was a look of shear terror. "Thats is a good thing" I thought....;)

[Mark Singer]

Well,
I do agree! With the proper spring force you can "walk around" the saw. The Board Buddies will hold a work piece so that you can let go and pull it through. This is especially useful for narrow strips where the push stick is cramped between the blade and the fence.
What is interesting about this post is that there is no one correct way and as Dave said....what feels safer to the user is most important. We should remain open to using aids whether shop built or purchased to improve operation, accuracy and safety...it is not something new...it started with the fence and Masters such as Tage Frid used and demonstrate the use of such aids in their books and in years of teaching. In the end go with what works for you....but don't be afraid to try something new....you might just like it!

Mark -

The Fence gizmo, the CC sled gizmo, the featherboard gizmo, --NO WAY!!

I want them all:D :)

Also, didn't you mention to me that you "walk around the TS" quite often to "pull" thin (or narrow) pieces thru the cut??? Because this is safer - and the board buddies allow you to do this?? CORRECT?

[Sam Chambers]

In the video that came with my Jointech fence system, the host has a great line. "If it doesn't look safe, it probably isn't." I have a sign on the wall in my shop to remind me of that important point.

I would also add, "If you're uncomfortable with the process, don't do it." Like many here, I'm a weekend hobbyist, not a pro. There may be things a pro wouldn't flinch about, but they make me nervous, so I find another way. On the other hand, based on the accident survey at woodworking.org, it seems that many table saw accidents happen to pros and are the result of 1.) complacency, and/or 2.) failing to use safety equipment. In other words, pros aren't immune either.

I had a conversation with a professional cabinetmaker one day at my favorite lumberyard. He told me that, in his opinion, the planer was the most dangerous power tool in his shop. When I asked him why, he said, "Because you can't see the knives." I told him that the planer was the least my worries because all I have to do is remember not to stick my hands inside the machine. Turns out that he got tired of the pressure rollers making marks on his stock, and he adjusted them to have less downward pressure, so he has to help push the stock through.