Performax 22-44 ?

[Dave Dionne]

Hi All

Besides needing a good dust collector is there anything else I should know if I plan on buying one of these bad boys?

We have a small loan coming thru in a week or so and I think I am going to buy one for a home remodel I have coming up. All new cabinets in 2 baths and our kitchen. Seems like a good toy :D I mean tool for the job.

Thanks in advance Dave Dionne

[Chris Padilla]

Dave,

Can you pick me up a second one? :D This is one of the last major pieces of ww'ing equipment that I think I'll need.

Have you researched them a bit? I think there are 2-3 'models' of the 22-44 and they all come with various things from your basic model to one that has its own stand and storage area. Do a search on here...plenty of info for you to peruse.

[Joe Meazle]

I am still learning how to use mine best but i can tell you that it is heavey and it is not a planer;) :D .

Joe

[Dave Dionne]

Hey Chris

And for the record I have a digital camera so I can provide pictures for the picture police. I am going to buy a new Jet Dust collector with canister to go with it and I am trying not to get a new Exacta saw at the same time but woodcraft has 10% sale on all power tools, so far nobody can beat their sale price. I am twitching for a new saw also but I really should pick on or the other. I hate having to make a choice.:rolleyes:

Dave

[lou sansone]

dear dave

I did about a years research on all the the drum sanders and found that many I spoke with were somwhat disappointed with the performance. I am not trying to start a fight here or say "my tool is bigger than your tool". When I was doing my research on sanders I had a number of converstions with folks who owned them and many who were brutially honest said that it they had it to do again they would not have bought one. I am sure there are those out there at SMC who disagree with me tooth and claw. I respect them and believe that they have valid points. Some of it is simply a matter of $$ and cents.

My humble advise is if at all possible you either rent time on a local Wide belt sander of buy a good used one your self. I chose to buy one and have been extremely happy with it. I actually paid less then the performax unit goes for. A lot less.

Renting time on a Wide belt is not that expensive and for a single kitchen and 2 baths you are probably talking about less than 200 bucks for all the sanding of the face frames.

Please do not take this as putting water on your fire. It is just my humble opinion

respectfully
lou

[Glen Blanchard]

dear dave

for what it is worth, and I am sure there will be catterwalling and booing and hissing all over the creek, but I do think they are toys and in the end you will be disappointed. I did about a years research on all the the drum sanders and finally walked away from all of them.

respectfully
lou

No booing or hissing here Lou, but I feel a need to defend my little Performax 16-32. IMHO, the benefit that a drum sander will provide is greatly dependent upon exactly what kind of wood working is to be done in the shop in question. Additionally, I think whether one is a hobbyist or has a production shop also should be part of the equation.

I am only a hobbyist, but for making my little boxes, the Performax has been wonderful.

[Dave Dionne]

Thanks for everyones input. We do not have allot of money, but I think I can get allot of use out of this machine. I have had a couple of people ask if they can rent time on it already. Besides the cabinet job for our house I am starting to make a series of Blanket chests and knitting chest of my own design. I was feeling that a sander such as this would really help after glue up of multiple panels in the 20 to 24 inch width range before dovetailing.
Will this sander be good at that?

Thanks Dave

[Mike Cutler]

Dave.
I have a Performax 16-32 that I picked up last fall. it is a nice lite duty sander, by that I mean that if you plan to do a lot of sanding of long wide material (read as heavy) this is probably not the sander that you want.
The problems with the 16-32, I can't speak to the 22-44, are that the head is able to deflect upward if the material is too long and begins to act as a lever. This is not an insurmountable obstacle. It requires that you feed the material through in both directions without changing the height of the rollers and you have to kinda get a feel for keeping it "level" ( I listen to changes in pitch from the drum. In the interest of fairness to the sander. I have been working with a lot of wide brazillian cherry.
If the material is shorter 5', the sander actually performs pretty well, but I still have to send the material thru twice with out changing the drum height, once in each direction. It seems that the head deflects about a 1/64"-1/128" across the board. Running it thru twice seems to work best for me. I have not been able to stop this, and I know that the drum is parallel to the bed with absolute certainty.Still not impossible to overcome, it just takes longer.
It has a slight tendency tp snipe just a touch, again not insurmountable you just gotta place a sacrificial board in front or in back of the material if it's going to be critical.
I had considered the Grizzly 24' wide sander, but my shop just doesn't have the capability of running a 5hp motor without doing an electrical upgrade.
I have tried to run material thru it that was wider that 15", by putting it thru twice with the already sanded material sticking out the side, and it was a less than productive endeavor.
I can tell you that mine isn't fast by any means, but it will do the job. It's not a planer, so you can't try to sand a lot off at once, about a 1/64th at a time max.
I would still keep it even if I did eventually get a more powerful sander because I find that even with it's limitations I use it a lot more than I anticipated.
Once again, these are observation based on the 16-32. I know that Jim Becker has the 22-44, hopefully he'll be able to give a more model specific critique.

[Jim Becker]

If you look here at SMC, you'll find my previous commentary on the Performax 22-44 Plus, which is the more recent product in this size. Good machine.

[lou sansone]

No booing or hissing here Lou, but I feel a need to defend my little Performax 16-32. IMHO, the benefit that a drum sander will provide is greatly dependent upon exactly what kind of wood working is to be done in the shop in question. Additionally, I think whether one is a hobbyist or has a production shop also should be part of the equation.

I am only a hobbyist, but for making my little boxes, the Performax has been wonderful.

Hi glen and also Jim becker

I agree with your assessment on these units. I did not mean any disrespect. As I said earlier, they are nice sanders, but they were not for me, and some of the folks I talked to had bought them for "kitchens and such" and were disappointed. That does not mean that they are not suited for the right application. I definitly agree that for small boxes and such they are going to be fine, and I am sure even for bigger things, as long as you are reasonable and take your time.

I think that thing that we can definitly agree on is that this type of technology ( sanding drums & wide belts ) is a real help for those working with super thin stock and for figured stock. No questions there.
Again, please know that I did not want to "slam" these types of tools, just wanted to add the possibliity of either renting time on a wide belt, or if possible, getting a used one at a real good price. I know full well that widebelts are not within reach of many folks. In fact that is why I spent so much time looking at the drum type sanders, I didn't think I would end up with one either.

regards
lou

[Glen Blanchard]

Hi glen and also Jim becker

I agree with your assessment on these units. I did not mean any disrespect.

No disrespect taken Lou. I just felt a need to state that, although these units may not be the answer for everyone, they do have their niche. I don't think you put it in those terms originally and I did not want anyone to think that there are not satisfied Performax owners.

I find it invaluable for working with highly figured timber and for making incremental and very slight changes to stock thickness. I could not work without it. I am not a production shop owner and work on smaller scale stuff however.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, Lou...no issue. In a perfect world, a "real" wide belt would be anyone's choice and even though I have the 22-44 Plus, I'd still consider renting time for something "big". But the financial realities of buying what is essentially a tool that plays a supporting role in most shops will always bring most folks back to the 16-32 Plus, 22-44 plus or the Delta 18-36 machine. They are affordable and do a good job when used as designed.

[Mike Cutler]

Lou. You can't really argue the point that you brought up. I have a 15" Jet planer, and I consider that a "Lite" duty planer. Sometimes a machine can be too large, and sometimes a machine can be too small, either can be problematic depending on the situation.
Where are you renting time on a sander around here? I contacted a few places, and they would do the work for me, but they wouldn't rent me time on the sander per se.
Maybe we're all like Goldilocks, and we're looking for the "just right" size. :rolleyes: (Too many Tsing Tao's in Plainfield.)

[lou sansone]

hi jim and glen

thanks for the feedback. I was wondering about those who own drum sanders, did any of you look at the woodmaster line of sanders? they seemed pretty well made.



Hi Mike


From what I understand both G&K rent time on their sander ( although to tell you the truth, it may include them running the piece for you - remember they are right around the corner from you ) and general woodcraft in new london.


BTW I completly agree with you about having machines that are just to big for regular work. IMHO planers larger than 24 inch really start to become monsters. The same goes for wide belts over 38" wide. They are just to big for most shops and really start to kill the electric bill because of the "demand" charge.

lou

[Warren White]

Dave,
Largely on the recommendations of folks like Jim Becker, I bought a Performax 22-44. I really like it, and haven't been a bit disappointed in what it does. I had one minor issue when the new belt stretched and overlapped itself. I rewrapped and tightened the belt and haven't had a problem since. I really like what it does on figured wood. As has been said, it ain't a planer. With that in mind, I have never popped a breaker and I don't have it on a dedicated 20A line.

If I could live my life in a checkered shirt and a beard, I would have been born "Norm" and have that huge sander donated to my shop. Short of that, and back into my reality, the Performax is just what I need for the amount of space/money I can put into it. I am just a hobbyist who works out of a two-car garage that has to house one car. My tools need to be portable.

I bought a Jet 1100-RC Dust Collector to go with the Performax because i heard the same thigs you probably have; you need it to gather the dust out of the sander. I have flexible hose that I drag from machine to machine; works good for me, but would probably drive others crazy.

My advice...consider size, ability to move it, $, and useage. In my world it was just right.

Warren

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

dear dave

for what it is worth, and I am sure there will be catterwalling and booing and hissing all over the creek, but I do think they are toys and in the end you will be disappointed...

Hmmm. I have a 16/32, and this morning I sanded three parts of my dining table top approx 14 x 64 each and then glued 'em together. Was it tedious? Yes...I probably put each piece through the sander 12 times. Did it work? Yes it did. Would I rather have a 'real' sander? Yes I would. But I'm not sure 'toy' is appropriate.

KC

[lou sansone]

good morning fellow ww's

ok you have made your point about the drum sanders. No problem and I really did not want to start a fight. My survey when I had been looking into them was not positive at all. maybe it depends on who you talk to. So in the spirit of friendship I have edited my original post.
kind regards
lou

[David Duke]

hi jim and glen

thanks for the feedback. I was wondering about those who own drum sanders, did any of you look at the woodmaster line of sanders? they seemed pretty well made.

lou

Lou, I had been researching the 22-44 last year and was on the verge of buying even though I had concerns with the flex of the cantilevered drum. Right before I placed my order I found a "like new" 26" Woodmaster for 6 full rolls of paper and infeed/outfeed rollers for 800.00 and bought it on site:D , what a well made machine the 5hp Leeson motor gives it plenty of power, while you don't have the capacity as the 22-44 this machine will do just about all that I need. Although I haven't used it much I think I will be well satisfied.

[Dave Tinley]

Dave
I had a Performax 16/32 and was pleased with it. Yes it is slow, but to me it was faster then hand sanding. Since I have a 15 inch planer, I put 150 grit on the sander and left it there, never really changed grits. Now as I said I had a 16/32, I sold it and bought a 22/44, two reasons, first I wanted a wider sander and second I wanted a new toy, er tool :p
I bought the benchtop unit at Amazon.com, and the price with free shipping and discount was $924.00. I bought the infeed and outfeed tables (new) on ebay for $43 (saved $57) and I am building a base for it out of left over plywood.
BTW-there are some complete units on ebay that were just alittle under what Amazons price is, but I had a gift certificate for Amazon, so I went with their unit.
Dave

[Craig Zettle]

I think Lou is dead on right about this one. (regarding open end sanders) They flex-period. No question about it. I ran some glue-ups through my 16-32 that were 25" and just ever so slightly lifted up on the outfeed side and ruined the panel. Sure, this machine has its place, but not production kitchen cabinet work.

[Chuck Harris]

I wasw interested in one of these machines as well. (Delta 18/36 X5) Fourtunatly I have a local retailer who knows their stuff and gives good advice before you buy.

First thing he stated was "ITS NOT A PLANER" so don't expect to use it like one. You can't take large bites of materials and you have to go a little slower.

Grits matter. You have to use the right grit for what your doing.

He told me flat out that most complaints were due to poeple trying to remove too much too fast and with the wrong grit. After that warnning I bought the Delta.

So far I'm very happy. It took a little trial and error but It has been a real timesaver in the long run. I run grits from 80 up to 220 on my machine and have had good luck with it so far. Changing belts is quick once you get the hang of it. And if you run a long peice you will need to support it. Big plus for me is there is very little dust that escapes from it if any. You will need a belt cleaner also.

As a rule I true/clean up a peice with 80/100 grit. Once thats done I can progress quickly up to 220

[lou sansone]

BTW for what it is worth...

On my wide belt ( timesavers 37" - 20hp) I usually only run 120 grit and only take 0.020" per pass. I am sure you could take more, but I have not tried to. Most of the wood is tiger maple or cherry that I put through it and I like to take my time with it. I don't know how that compares with drum units, but I would guess that it might be about the same. I have other grits that I can put on the machine and sometimes do go to 180 grit. When I run 180, I only feel comfortable taking 0.010 per pass.


lou

[Larry Browning]

Since we are talking about drum sanders in general, I have been wondering about why these things cost SO much? Now I have never used one or really looked at one of these things up close, but for the ones I have looked at at Woodcraft and in photos, I don't see $1200. It looks more like $300-$400 to me. What makes these things SO EXPENSIVE?

Of course you must know that I think EVERYTHING is too expensive. But this thing seems more out of line than most.

Larry

[Chris Padilla]

One of my wood rags had a little ditty about how to best use these open-ended drum sanders.

They pretty much echo what everyone here has said:

(1) Take very small bites and pass it twice before adjusting the depth
(2) Learn to listen to it when it is under duress...back it off quick
(3) See Rule (1)
(4) Go slowly, go slowly, go slowly...this is not a machine for a production shop so take your time

John Weber added a cheap little ammeter to mesure the current draw of his 16/32 (I think he has this one but not sure) so he could monitor when the thing was being close to overloaded. Seems like a good idea.

These style of sanders are like any other tool...you gotta learn to use it correctly.

[Dave Dionne]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for there thoughts and opinions, this is a major investment for me but I do believe it is the right one. You all have given me a good head start to the learning curve of do's and don'ts forthis peice of equipment.


Thanks again Dave

[Mike Cutler]

Larry. it's kinda hard to justify the price of anything these days.
If I were more cycnical I would say that the price(s) are based on some kind of a market demographic, but you could say that for any product.
The Performax 16-32 that I have seems to be a fairly well made piece of machinery. The castings are uniform, the machine has enough mass to make it stable by itself, the sanding drum is a nice machined aluminum cylinder. It has good bearings, It's not obnoxously loud or whiny. The height adjustment screw has virtually no mechanical hysterisis, and seems to maintain the selected height with no creeping. It shipped with a nice stand, and all the bolt holes were machined and drilled properly so that it could be mounted easily.It also came with nice hardware that didn't have to replaced prior to assembly.
In short, it pretty much performs as advertised. It would probably be a poor choice for a commercial operation, where time was money, but for the hobbiest that is under no schedule pressure :rolleyes: it's a good fit.
I don't personally use it for the final sanding. I prefer to do that by hand but it is a time saver in the shop, all limitations aside, for all the initial sanding after planing operations.
Is it worth the money? For my situation I believe it was. It frees me up to do things I like a little bit more in the shop.
This probably wasn't a great answer to your question, but I'm not sure that there is a definitive answer.

[CPeter James]

I have a used Performax 25-2 that I picked up for $850 and spent another $100 to get going. I love it and it gets a lot of use in shop. It does a real good job and I can zero in on the thickness and keep the thicknesses constant =/- .005" or less. This makes the fit and finish better. I also do my panel glue ups at about .030" over thick and then sand them to the finish thickness. This gives dead flat panels. Real nice. If I was to buy new, I would look at the Powermatic 2 roll sander at about $2,500.

CPeter

[Dave Dionne]

CPeter

Would to look at the powermatic but I am afraid it is WAY out of my price range. I can get the 22-44 at Woodcraft for about $900 until the end of the month with the sale they have going.

Thanks for your input.

Dave

PS where in NH?