Planning the next build

[Derek Cohen]

I'm sure others also spend time between builds tuning up equipment, both power and hand. This time it has been with more caution in mind since I have a stack of rough sawn Makore to use - beautiful timber from West Africa .. but ...


http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/makore/


... some say that it can cause skin irritations. Although I have not experienced any reactions to timbers to date, I am being cautious and tuned up the dust collection for the jointer and thicknesser. Now I am waiting on a good dust mask with filtration down to .3 microns, and will not start any machining until they arrive.


I'd be interested to hear any experiences with this wood.


The next build is a lingerie chest for Lynndy. She's been asking for one for a while, one that will fit into an alcove in the bedroom. Ideas have been percolating ...


I have in mind a cabinet that tapers to each side. I am not decided on the drawers but have strongly entertained the idea of concave drawer fronts ...


http://walzcraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Curved-Drawer-Box-with-Concave-Front-360x244.png


... not sure (although I like the challenge of compound angled dovetails! :) ). They would be quite unusual - convex is more common. However straight may be a less busy look. Your thoughts?


I made up a mock-up with a few lengths of MDF clamped together.


The chest needs to be at a height that enables Lynndy to see into the top drawer. So this is established as 54". The width at the base is largely determined by the alcove into which it will go: Lynndy wants it as wide as possible, and I want it to be as wide as is aesthetic (she has little concern for the latter - she just wants a chest of drawers!).


This is what it looks like in the bedroom alcove (those pictures will be going). This is 16" wide at the top ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/3_zpsec46d87a.jpg


... and 20" at the top ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/4_zpsd8aa28a0.jpg


In the end we agreed on 17" at the top, 25" at the bottom, and a height of 53" ..


Today I drew this full size on 1/8" MDF sheet ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/7_zps1bcc87a9.jpg


There are two narrow drawers at the top that will be used for jewellery and be filled with trays and lined in suede. These will have locks. The remaining drawers I decided to keep the same height as I thought that graduated heights might accentuate the taper. Looking at this drawing, however, I have changed my mind. The problem is that the shorter drawers look "blocky" and clumsy.


Here is the cabinet redrawn with graduated drawers.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/8_zps18024528.jpg


The sizes of the drawers were decided by eyeballing them - no calculations, per se. The upper two are 2 3/4", the next two rows are 4 1/2", the next two are 5 1/2" and the bottom three rows are 6 1/2". They look right to me. Your thoughts?


The locks are going to move from the front to the side of the carcase. On the front they add a busier look. Now I need to find locks that work from the side. I recall one can get these for desk drawers. Any sources?


Comments and opinion gladly received.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Kees Heiden]

Comments? That's going to be a lot of lingerie!

[Derek Cohen]

You should see the shoes, Kees :rolleyes:

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

I built a rosewood cabinet for a client some years ago and her request was wide/shallow drawers that would closer resemble a flat file than a jewelry box. The top opened to reveal a row of watch pillows but if I did it again I would jettison the opening top since she ended up sitting many things on the box basically eliminating the function of the top.

So with that in mind if your wife collects watches/bangles/bracelets I would make an area for a bunch of individual watch pillows on one half and ring slots on the other half (which can also hold pins). The drawer immediately below it would be dedicated to necklaces and earrings.

Scarves do well in a wide flat drawer also.

I did plush suede liners in my client's jewelry box, and I found plush liners to use a ton of space without purpose. So for my wife's I wrapped plywood in leather then again in suede to get a soft surface which was not plush.

My wife dislikes my 'over-organization', so her jewelry box is a lacquered rosewood, suede lined, pirate's chest. Had I been comfortable with marquetry I would have put a skull and crossbones on it. Had I been able to design it in a manner which allowed it to let out a sinister laugh and spill out a waterfall of jewelry....that would have been preferred.

My own valet box is simply lined with wood.

[david charlesworth]

Derek,

It is possible that you may need twice as many jewellery drawers!

I'm sure you know that if you build bow front or concave, you laminate the drawer fronts first.

David Charlesworth

[Mark Kornell]

Derek,

I like the graduated drawer height approach, but why not make them all different (graduated) heights instead of pairing/tripling up sizes? To me, the drawers look as if they are all different heights as is, but top drawer of each pair/triple looks chunkier than the one below. Using fully graduated heights would (I think) eliminate that.

Unless the cabinet is going to sit under a mirror, consider having the top tilt up to show a mirror. She's going to want to do see what a necklace or earring looks like against the outfit she's wearing that day.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

It is possible that you may need twice as many jewellery drawers!

I'm sure you know that if you build bow front or concave, you laminate the drawer fronts first.

David Charlesworth

Hi David

I've done a bit of laminating curves before (such as for demilune tables), however I have no idea what it would be like dovetailing into the ends of laminated drawer front. Can this be done? Chiseling into glue does not seem kind on chisel steel. Would it be better shaping the curved drawer fronts from solid wood?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

I like the graduated drawer height approach, but why not make them all different (graduated) heights instead of pairing/tripling up sizes? To me, the drawers look as if they are all different heights as is, but top drawer of each pair/triple looks chunkier than the one below. Using fully graduated heights would (I think) eliminate that.

Unless the cabinet is going to sit under a mirror, consider having the top tilt up to show a mirror. She's going to want to do see what a necklace or earring looks like against the outfit she's wearing that day.

Hi Mark

I agree, a progressive graduation of drawer heights is my preference as well. I am looking into this at the moment.

A mirror is an idea. Perhaps not part of the chest, but above it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

I don't know anything about furniture, so this is only my preference from looking at the picture and wondering what would look good to me.

I like the straight front better than concave. Convex would be nice if you wanted to do that instead, but I'm not sure they would look good unless the curve carries over to the outside of the piece, and if it wasn't bold, it would just look studio furniture-ish. It would also have to be something other than straight lines in the vertical, too, or it might look like an odd mix of curved and straight.

I like the piece in general (I'd do all of it flat as you have laid it out and do nothing other than fiddle drawer sizes).

The drawers in the middle, to my eye, are too close to the size of the bottom drawers. I'd have them smaller sooner and probably divided at the top.

I have no idea what any of the implications of my wishes are, like I say, I know nothing about furniture and what makes good design.

[Mel Fulks]

Mark makes a good point ,the pairs actually make the bottom drawer look more shallow than the upper. An unusual refinement in graduation is the frize drawer,a top drawer often cross banded and having no pulls that is often taken to be
part of a thick top. I once had one and measured the graduation which used the "golden mean". The second drawer was
1.618 times the frize drawer and the third ,and ect. were 1.273 times the one immediately above.

[James Conrad]

Hi Derek,

The general design of the mockup is good, I've seen similar pieces all with flat or raised panel drawer fronts, so I would like to see you pull off the concave fronts. That could be done with a more shallow concave front - a subtle curve. Another option would be to switch the concave direction - top to bottom, more of a Danish modern look I suppose. I agree with the comments on the drawer proportions needing work, adding another small drawer to the top and adjusting from there. And, your drawer pull location proportions are off, you have it right at the top, think of each drawer as a two halves and center, might need to adjust slightly due to the slant sides. To get the proportions/look more refined you may need to adjust your height and width of the overall piece rather than trying to fit what you want into prescribed dimensions.

Looking forward to it taking shape!

James

[Rob Luter]

I'm sure others also spend time between builds tuning up equipment, both power and hand. This time it has been with more caution in mind since I have a stack of rough sawn Makore to use - beautiful timber from West Africa .. but ...


http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/makore/


... some say that it can cause skin irritations. Although I have not experienced any reactions to timbers to date, I am being cautious and tuned up the dust collection for the jointer and thicknesser. Now I am waiting on a good dust mask with filtration down to .3 microns, and will not start any machining until they arrive.


I'd be interested to hear any experiences with this wood.

I made this frame last fall from Makore. I just used a standard dust mask and didn't have any issues to speak of. I had never heard of it at the time. I was looking for some straight grained Mahogany at the time and about choked on what it was going to cost. This does the Mahogany thing pretty well and was inexpensive. It's a pretty hard wood so keep everything nice and sharp.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7152/6659684783_8c5850bfe1_b.jpg

[Jeff Ranck]

I'm sure others also spend time between builds tuning up equipment, both power and hand. This time it has been with more caution in mind since I have a stack of rough sawn Makore to use - beautiful timber from West Africa .. but ...


http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/makore/


... some say that it can cause skin irritations. Although I have not experienced any reactions to timbers to date, I am being cautious and tuned up the dust collection for the jointer and thicknesser. Now I am waiting on a good dust mask with filtration down to .3 microns, and will not start any machining until they arrive.


I'd be interested to hear any experiences with this wood.

Derek

I've worked with this wood on several occasions and it is really beautiful. I tend to use a finish that has little or no color to it (and no stain at all) to allow the dark red color to show through. You could probably use a dark glaze effectively to accentuate the grain pockets if you liked that look.

I tend to have a slight reaction to the wood, but not much of one. If I breath the dust, it is a bit of a reaction in the back of my throat. So I tend to use a lot of dust collection, and a standard dust mask, although sometimes I'd wish for a bit more if I was sanding. No skin reaction at all for me.

The wood seems to have a lot of silica or something in it that dulls tools quickly. So if you are machining using power tools, sharp carbide is recommended. Not sure how the hand tools will work as I've only done a bit of finish plaining on the projects I've worked. Of course, you're well used to working with tough, difficult woods so I suspect you'll have no problems.

Jeff.

[Frederick Skelly]

Derek,
I love the concave drawer, especially if you keep it so dramatically curved. But Im concerned about the combination of a vertical taper with concave drawers. I am by no means a design expert. So Im not certain, but in my mind's eye I keep visualizing a chest that looks like its collapsing in on itself in two dimensions. (Man, that sounds like something Antoni Gaudi would have done deliberately, doesnt it?) You might want to build it out in sketchup or some other 3D rendering tool just to make sure the combined effect suits you.

Look forward to watching your build.
Fred

[ian maybury]

Just thinking out loud. Not sure how it would work, but another possibility (which would complicate construction) might be to arch the drawers (as seen from in front) as the bottom edge. The top would end up arched too - but if something needs to sit on it some sort of drop on platen or even a circular flat bottomed recess cut into the top might be an option. For real punishment (but it might not work so well visually) make the drawer fronts concave viewed from above as well..

[john zulu]

Hmmm. A very wild design is in order :)

[Curt Putnam]

Might you want to consider hanging space for necklaces and such? My bride prefers that mode. Should that become a consideration, you'll want to devote some side space to the necklace function and that , in turn, could impact drawer design. Perhaps the potentially resulting asymmetry could be useful from a design perspective?

No experience with Makore.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Curt

Fortunately, hanging space is not on the agenda. That makes it a little simpler - and I do want to avoid too much complexity.

One idea that I will incorporate is a lid (that looks like moulding) that lifts up into a mirror. To do this I shall need to drop the height of the chest a few inches, which suits me as I thought it too high to start (Lynndy is only interested in how much she can get inside, not the aesthetics!).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Curt Putnam]

(Lynndy is only interested in how much she can get inside, not the aesthetics!).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Funny how the ladies often don't care about the interesting stuff. Still, she has her eye on the ball and I'm sure she won't you get too far astray with the overall aesthetics. This will be a nice project. Looking forward to the build-along.

[Prashun Patel]

If your wife is interested more in capacity, then concave drawers are a non-starter. That'd be strictly for aesthetics and would reduce the usable space. It's the kind of feature that other builders may be more impressed with than the user, IMHO. That being said, I selfishly want to read about how you'd do them ;)

I think the dimensions of the drawer heights would look best diminishing in a similar proportion as the width does.

[Derek Cohen]

I posted the same question over at WoodCentral about the drawers (I would only discuss design here and there). One member (Paul n NJ) had a little fun with drawings to show possible sizings. He also added in a cabinet with curved sides. The interesting - important - factor is that this was actually my original concept. I am cross-posting my reply since I would really appreciate advice here. My head has been hurting trying to figure this one out for a few months.

Paul, I love your drawings! What the last lot have made me recognise is that I should be discussing what I originally wanted to do, and not the compromise I posted earlier.


What I would like to build is a curved outline, not straight, tapering sides. Like this (I used one of your drawings and added a few mods) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/Linergrie%20Chest/Drawing4_zpsca19aa01.jpg
Edit to add: There should be a rail at the bottom of the lower drawer. I could not draw this in (using Photoshop Elements 12).

Why did I go for straight tapered sides instead? I was thinking about the complexity of dovetailed drawers (which I do not wish to change from at this stage). The issue is that a drawer that runs from carcase side-to-side, the drawer sides will need to be coopered to fit. I just do not know how to dovetail such a drawer.


It is possible to make the drawer with through dovetails, and add a fitted front. What I dislike about this method is that the result leaves a side that is not flush with the front. I would like to build drawers with half blind fronts.


In a parallel-sided carcase - the typical chest - it is a simple matter to fit a drawer front, and then dovetail into a square side. While a little more complicated, a tapering straight side is not too different. But where does one start with a curved side?


I assume that the drawer front must also be fitted first. Drawer sides will then need to be shaped to the curve. And then they need to be dovetailed on this curve. Aaaaaahhhhh!


Now add in a curved drawer front!?? I'm still thinking of a slight curve (now convex - curve to the outside), but it may look better flat. This ups the complexity yet again - not that this is a problem ... I look forward to the challenge. I just need to have a method to follow, and I cannot get my head around this one ... and hence I went straight sides .. shame on me!


Curved cabinet sides are easy enough. I have a plan for that - shape curved frame, with a thin rebated panel that runs flush at the outside.


Sooo .... guys and gals .... how do you do these drawers?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Good day Derek,

The drawing looks nice and I love the curved sides. It looks as if you left out the bottom rail in the drawing, or does the bottom drawer terminate at the bottom of the piece?

I vote for flat front. As for the dovetails, it should be straightforward- just divide and mark on the drawer sides and saw the same as if they were flat. Mark the pins as normal. As long as the cuts are parallel to the drawer face, it will slide right in.

I have decided that the true reason behind this build is that you got hold of some badly warped stock and you just designed a project to fit the raw materials. :D;)

Cheers,

Malcolm

[Prashun Patel]

If the question is how to make drawers accomodate the curved side, how about trickery? Is there a way to make rabbeted side rail that is curved to the viewer, but discretely faceted on the inside? Then you might make the drawer sides flat, and make the drawer fronts overhanging the sides only to accomodate the curve?

also, i wonder if even if all the drawer and fronts were flat, would the viewer even notice the difference between the analog curve of the rail and the digital one of the drawer edges.

[david charlesworth]

Derek,

We have done a few bow front drawers in the workshop. Dovetailing into laminates was not a problem. Perhaps urea formaldehyde best avoided, there are PVA types said not to creep these days.

Bow front drawers were done with either 3 or 5 layers, bandsawn from thick plank. A simple caul made by bandsawing a curve through softwood should do. The inside left thick and the outside fairly thin and flexible.

best wishes,
David

[Kees Heiden]

This looks a lot better then your first sketch on that piece of plywood!

If I had to make such drawers I would make them oversized and then plane to fit. It doesn't look like the sides are very concave, just a couple of mm's. The ones at the top and bottom could be made tapered and then the very little bit of concavenes planed into the side.

But I must confess, rather you then me!

[Sean Hughto]

Sooo .... guys and gals .... how do you do these drawers?

I would form a lattice of the dividers and runners etc, so that I would be making regular square drawers with the face - only - fitted to the curved sides. There are enough drawers that each piece of the curve is slight enough that you will lose barely any space.

[Daniel Rode]

I've not made a bow-sided dresser, so this is really just me thinking about how I might do it.

Looking at the drawing, fitting the drawers to the curve of the sides seems pretty straight forward. I see two options. first, simple make normal square side drawers with slightly thicker sides and then plane them to fit the curve. It's a subtle curve, so you'd be planning more of an angle then a curve. The drawer side will be slightly thicker at the top or bottom but this would be inside and even then, hard to detect. Making the fronts bow adds to the complexity but it's not mission impossible.

I'd have a hard time pulling it off but I've seen enough of your work to believe you can do it.

The second option would be to angle the side(s) to roughly match the angle of the curve and then plane to fit. Nearly identical to option 1 but the drawer sides would be equal thickness top and bottom (the middle would be thicker, though). For me, it's not enough of a difference to bother.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

We have done a few bow front drawers in the workshop. Dovetailing into laminates was not a problem. Perhaps urea formaldehyde best avoided, there are PVA types said not to creep these days.

Bow front drawers were done with either 3 or 5 layers, bandsawn from thick plank. A simple caul made by bandsawing a curve through softwood should do. The inside left thick and the outside fairly thin and flexible.

best wishes,
David

Thanks David.

I've only a limited experience with laminating curves - made a few demilune tables a few years back. I think that I used epoxy resin. Urea Formaldahyde is no longer available in Oz, even if one wanted to use it, and I do not. Gorilla Glue was recommended as it sets rigid and has minimal springback, but I would be concerned that it might leave laminate lines. In any event, the curve to the drawer front - if I use one (Lynndy says that the sides create enough curves and to leave the fronts straight - she has a point) - would be slight (about 1/4" deep) and this may as well come from solid boards.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I would form a lattice of the dividers and runners etc, so that I would be making regular square drawers with the face - only - fitted to the curved sides. There are enough drawers that each piece of the curve is slight enough that you will lose barely any space.


... simple make normal square side drawers with slightly thicker sides and then plane them to fit the curve. It's a subtle curve, so you'd be planning more of an angle then a curve. The drawer side will be slightly thicker at the top or bottom but this would be inside and even then, hard to detect. Making the fronts bow adds to the complexity but it's not mission impossible. ...

Thanks Sean and Daniel

Both of you are making essentially the same suggestion, which is one that also occurred to me - build the drawers slightly oversize and then basically cope them to fit. As you state, the curve is unlikely to require much waste is needed to be removed. Delicate shaping needed, but doable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

If I had to make such drawers I would make them oversized and then plane to fit. It doesn't look like the sides are very concave, just a couple of mm's. The ones at the top and bottom could be made tapered and then the very little bit of concavenes planed into the side.



This is exactly what I would do, too.

I'd try to make sure no part of the curve was wider at the top than the bottom of the piece, though (not that it has anything to do with the drawers)

[Sean Hughto]

Nope, we are not saying the same thing. Daniel wants you to plane the whole sides to fit the curve. I want you to hang normal boxes in a lattice with a front that follows the curved sides only where the drawer front meets the sides. You can make the front from a single piece by doing half blinds into a rabbet or with an applied front on a straightforward through DT box. The latter would like make side runners easier to make too.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2427/3575129018_e4d888a0cc_z.jpg

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3588/3574320125_64e644e103_z.jpg

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Sean

You are correct. I misunderstood your suggestion. I must not reply late at night when tired.

It was actually the post of Kees that I was thinking of ...


If I had to make such drawers I would make them oversized and then plane to fit. It doesn't look like the sides are very concave, just a couple of mm's. The ones at the top and bottom could be made tapered and then the very little bit of concavenes planed into the side.

This option was one that had occurred to me also, but I was hoping to hear of another way to fit the drawers to the carcase. As I mentioned earlier, I do not wish to use runners (yours looks better than good, but I am dedicated to creating drawers that fit an opening. The construction of the sides will help here. I envisage a frame-and-panel construction with a 3/16" - 1/4" thick panel that slides into a groove in a curved frame. Inside there will be braces that stiffen and deaden the panel and also are a base for the drawers to run along.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

I would think it easiest to set the curve of the sides and use that as a jig to laminate the drawer sides along that curve. That way they are as near to exact as possible.

Even with a slight curve I'd still use three pieces laminated together.

[Sean Hughto]

I am dedicated to creating drawers that fit an opening.


I typically aspire to that too. ;-) <chuckle>

As for no runners, I have made such drawers many times. With small drawers, a nice piston fit arrangement works out pretty well, but with larger drawers, the best action, by far, is with runners. Even small drawers are sweeter to use with runners.

I have a high end modern Stickley set of night stands with several drawers. They not only have side runners, but a center guide runner underneath. Top shelf action. Worth it for refined heirloom work.

YMMV

[Jim Matthews]

Will Mdme. Cohen be able to peer into the top drawer?

Thinking about a chest of drawers with so many complex angles
calls to mind commentary about homesteaders in Alaska.

"While I admire their tenacious spirit, I question their foresight."

[Matt Lau]

Well Said:
"While I admire their tenacious spirit, I question their foresight."[/QUOTE]

Regardless, I look forward to the build!

[Tom Vanzant]

If Derek is going to build it (anything), I will follow his build.