Hey Winton - V11 on a Washita Stone Only

[David Weaver]

Winton - have you used that iron yet where you used two stones?

I've been experimenting the last week or two with V11 and a washita, and i started by burnishing the wire edge (the wire edge is tough!!) off with a jasper. Washita to japser, and then ensure the wire edge is off with a bare strop.

Today, I figured I'd just work the wire edge back and forth for 20 or 30 seconds and skip the jasper, and then check and ensure the wire edge was off by running across the bare strop (if it's not, the wire edge will leave lines on the strop, not damage, but visible lines).

I have to grind every two times I hone (the washita is at it's absolute limit sharpening the stuff after there's already a bevel there), but.....

Here's what I ended up with.

297846297847

The camera makes the shaving look thicker than it does without the flash.

Are you ready to switch to freehand with the washita??

I can hook you up!

[george wilson]

WHAT are you trying to show,David????

[Tony Zaffuto]

I think he's been imbiding this afternoon and showing us how he is now using BLO as a honing oil?

On a serious note David, when you reach a wire edge, experiment with it to see if it crumbles off, instead of the entire edge peeling off as a traditionally wrought material would. I have four PMV-11 blades at this time and am finding excellent results. One had a bit of a chip on a corner, but it ground out fine, with no lingering problems. I'm curious how this material would compare with HSS regarding bluing while grinding (I haven't tried that yet), but my questions arise from the particle composition possibly acting to keep bluing more localized.

[David Weaver]

I'm not sure how it behaves when it's hot. I have a pink wheel on my grinder, and generally if I feel the need to cool something, I drag it across my palm - that gives an idea of the level of heat that I usually have when grinding. When I was using a brown aluminum oxide wheel (only a step up from the gray ones), things may have gotten slightly hotter, but not much. The only thing I've blued intentionally is the muji iron.

I recall rob mentioning to observe A-2-ish type temperature considerations when grinding it. It reminds me, when grinding and sharpening, of some of the japanese stainless knife steels.

When I first sharpened it, I just raised a wire edge off of a fresh grind, a fairly big one, and tried to alternate front and back of the bevel lightly, and the wire edge was like rake teeth on the leather strop, it was tough. The jasper removed it with no damage. Today's fiddling (while the youngest kid was taking a nap, thus the limitation to fiddling) was to flip it over something more like 10 or 12 times instead of 2 and then by the time I did that, there wasn't much of anything left to mark the strop.

In terms of getting an organized wire edge, I always work the bevel and back lightly alternating after rolling up a burr, so I never really have an organized wire edge by the time I get to the strop. In my pea sized brain, I figure that i'll end up with a better edge if the wire edge's strength has been taken away from it. (plus I don't like big pieces of wire edge on my strop).

I didn't use BLO as a honing oil!! :)

I was using WD 40. I had the BLO can out because I decided to add a bit more to the jointer in an effort to protect it from dirty hands. It doesn't seem to take me long to make a plane dirty.

[David Weaver]

WHAT are you trying to show,David????

I'm giving winton some friendly harassment. I know he likes to use only the modern stones, and partake in practically the entire product line while sharpening each time.

(plus, I remember something about "getting by" with compromised goods).

I think I can get him on bevel down planes and freehand by the end of the year :)

[Mel Fulks]

Winton,come back, we need you to pick up on those "advise" "advice" things that the computer spell check just can't get
right. And in a LUCID post those things are important!

[Brian Holcombe]

Please advise because I need some advice.

[Jim Matthews]

And in a LUCID post those things are important!

You mean impotent.
"This word you keep saying. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[David Weaver]

I think I need a vice.

[Kees Heiden]

On a more serious note (HA HA HA), yesterday I have sharpened for the first time a plane blade on my oilstones. I am into carving at the moment and oilstones work a lot better with carving tools then these vulnerable waterstones. So when my #4 was a bit too dull, I just used the Washita and a translucent Arkansas. Bit of stropping and the edge was razor sharp again. Works a treat!

[David Weaver]

It's all in what you get used to, I guess. There wouldn't be so many arguments about sharpening if they didn't all work!

I don't have any interest in trying to convince people that they should sharpen V11 or very hard A2 with oilstones, but I do have interest in seeing if I can do it well enough that I'm not enticed to pull waterstones out of my drawers. As I timed this, it takes an extra 45 seconds or so to sharpen the V11 vs. carbon steel, you have to grind twice as often, and you have to be pretty heavy handed on a settled in oilstone to do it.

Grinding twice as often isn't a big deal when the bevel is thin, the iron gets a bit less warm on a smaller grind, anyway. And 45 seconds extra I can tolerate. I couldn't get my stones in and out that fast.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm not enticed to pull waterstones out of my drawers.

I'm not enticed to put them there in the first place.

It sounds like it would be rather uncomfortable and could make it difficult to walk.

jtk

[ken hatch]

I agree with David, there isn't much need for the mess and hassle of waterstones for PM-V11. I have been grinding PM-V11 on diamond and then the Hard Black Arkansas makes a good set up stone before final polishing on the Spyderco.

Personal preference and of course YMMV but I try to avoid A2 when possible and prefer high carbon steel. The PM-V11 may change my preferences a little.

[Jim Belair]

A bit of an aside: I've been a waterstone guy and probably will remain so. But thanks to threads here on SMC, while clearing out the basement of my family's home I recently was able to recognize and retrieve a Lily White that I'd previously passed over. Maybe another slippery slope..... ;)

[Matthew N. Masail]

David, aren't you worried about the v11 dulling the abrasive on your washita more than carbon steel would? I have avoiding sharpening my a2 on the oil stones for fear of burnishing the stones. That happened when I sharpened a stainless knife on the soft ark. Not that I can't wake em up but I'd rather not have to.

[Bill White]

All you guys are "stoned". :D
Bill

[Matthew N. Masail]

All you guys are "stoned". :D
Bill

If by "stoned" you mean we are HONING OUR SKILLS, then yes, you are right :p

[Bill Moser]

I think I need a vice.

With my white-bread upbringing, I think I realize now what I missed out on: I think I needed vice.

But seriously, I don't find that my water stones (shapton pros) make more of a mess, or are more finicky than my DMT duo-sharps. OK, I guess they need flattening once in a while, but that takes about 30 seconds. I like them better, for both freehanding, and jig-based sharpening. It does seem, however, that we jig-users (or Jigolos, as we prefer to be called) seem to prefer water stones. I've never owned any oil stones though, so maybe I'm missing out.

[Moses Yoder]

This whole dad gum thread and nobody asked what plane was used to make the shaving, and how thick the shaving is in a mic.

[Bill Moser]

I could be mistaken, but think the David's point was that PM-V11 steel (it is steel, isn't it?) can be sharpened well and quickly on oil stones. And I was just getting used to A2, dammit.

[Winton Applegate]

WHAT are you trying to show,David????
George,
Don’t worry, David is OK (well relatively . . . about as OK as he and I get) . . . this is just sharpening dude crazy talk, I wouldn’t worry about it . . . sort of like Art for ART’s sake . . .
Sharpening for SHARPENING’S sake
can’t expect a dry stone guy to get into it, you’re too practical, tooooooo . . . “lets get to the woodworking“
some times a guy just has to sharpen . . .
well . . .
just to sharpen.

David,
Is that maple ?
Looks like maple.

Am I ready ?
Oh . . . no . . . no . . . it’s too soon.
I . . . I . . . I . . . dunnO . . . I need time . . . time to think . . . I need space . . .
Outer space . . .
what am I saying . . .
. . . that’s about it really.
I hope you understand. (If you do splain it to me.)

Maybe you could put up a photo of a proper washita . . . you know . . . to help get me used to the idea of considering thinking about the whole idea.

PS: I don't have any ""V-11 blades.
Those are for babies ! ! ! !
. . . I mean, I just haven't had the occasion to get one. I pretty much have what I need and like what I have.
I just haven't ordered one to try it out is all.
Call me old fashioned.
Ha, ha, ha.

[Winton Applegate]

#4 was a bit too dull, I just used the Washita and a translucent Arkansas. Bit of stropping and the edge was razor sharp again. Works a treat!

Yah . . . must have been a O1 or W or sum . . . I mean . . . some such.
try the ark on an A2. You will just hear sinister and maniacal laughter . . .
as the ark goes down in flames and the A2 adds another slash mark on the side of his cockpit.

PS: Or maybe you are just burnishing the blade with the ark. That tac has crossed my mind lately but seems to be just one of my sharpening "rituals" more than a practical final step.

Don't expect any metal to come off an A2 onto a trans ark.

[David Weaver]

With my white-bread upbringing, I think I realize now what I missed out on: I think I needed vice.

But seriously, I don't find that my water stones (shapton pros) make more of a mess, or are more finicky than my DMT duo-sharps. OK, I guess they need flattening once in a while, but that takes about 30 seconds. I like them better, for both freehanding, and jig-based sharpening. It does seem, however, that we jig-users (or Jigolos, as we prefer to be called) seem to prefer water stones. I've never owned any oil stones though, so maybe I'm missing out.

I think (my opinion, I've got a little of everything), that oilstones are not a really good choice for a guide. A guide is a good piece of a kit that include stones that abrade predictably and constantly, thus waterstones and maybe diamond stones. Oilstones and their narrow width start to make sense when you're working freehand (the narrow width keeps them from getting hollow across their width - they can still get hollow across their length if not used correctly.

I like shapton pros a lot, too. The only issue I ever had with them is that they cut so purely and release so little swarf that my hands were always black. I really didn't have too much quibbles with shapton pros...when you use them a lot, you can forget how messy the old waterstones, like the kings, were.

[David Weaver]

George,
Don’t worry, David is OK (well relatively . . . about as OK as he and I get) . . . this is just sharpening dude crazy talk, I wouldn’t worry about it . . . sort of like Art for ART’s sake . . .
Sharpening for SHARPENING’S sake
can’t expect a dry stone guy to get into it, you’re too practical, tooooooo . . . “lets get to the woodworking“
some times a guy just has to sharpen . . .
well . . .
just to sharpen.

David,
Is that maple ?
Looks like maple.

Am I ready ?
Oh . . . no . . . no . . . it’s too soon.
I . . . I . . . I . . . dunnO . . . I need time . . . time to think . . . I need space . . .
Outer space . . .
what am I saying . . .
. . . that’s about it really.
I hope you understand. (If you do splain it to me.)

Maybe you could put up a photo of a proper washita . . . you know . . . to help get me used to the idea of considering thinking about the whole idea.

PS: I don't have any ""V-11 blades.
Those are for babies ! ! ! !
. . . I mean, I just haven't had the occasion to get one. I pretty much have what I need and like what I have.
I just haven't ordered one to try it out is all.
Call me old fashioned.
Ha, ha, ha.

I'll get an ugly picture. It's not a road you want to go down, it's filled with self torture!

[Bill Moser]

I like shapton pros a lot, too. The only issue I ever had with them is that they cut so purely and release so little swarf that my hands were always black. I really didn't have too much quibbles with shapton pros...when you use them a lot, you can forget how messy the old waterstones, like the kings, were.

Yes, exactly. I moved from kings to the shaptons almost immediately. Give them a wipe with a piece of paper towel after each blade and they're good to go for the next one.

I do work freehand quite a bit with the shaptons. The only exception is for BD plane blades. Undoubtedly my lack of freehand skill, but I tend to dub them over if I freehand them.

[Winton Applegate]

I've never owned any oil stones though, so maybe I'm missing out.

Well my hard ark is pretty and you can hold it up to the light and see how the light glows through it. So that is fun.
Other than that you aren't missing out, that and the price is breath taking.

The photo of the results on the razors in that link from David a week or so ago was impressive. The results on my A2s as far as actually abrading them was absolutely non existent though so only get it for basic high carbon steel blades.

David, not that I need it but, I looked on line for the "Chinese" stone and did not find it for sale at Woodcraft or else where. I didn't look at Stew's / figured he wouldn't have that.

Ha, ha,
Are there agencies that go out and hand pick, (what was it ? wrinkly?) stones for hermits like me that pretty much just buy on line.
You don't have to answer that.

That reminds me (and shows how out of touch I am with brick and mortar stores) . . . my apologies to Bruce Mack for recommending he could try out a LN #3 at a Woodcraft. I had forgotten there was some falling out and LN dropped Woodcraft.

While looking for the Chinese stone I rediscovered that.

PS: I may as well include my old photo showing how the A2 POLISHED the hard ark. The whole surface is polished though it was difficult for me to photograph it as it really looks. A diamond plate restores the surface to its abrasive good looks but not worth it to use the ark on A2 all the time.

.http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=297933&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1402269334

[David Weaver]

The washita gets put to sleep a little bit by the V11, too, but not completely.

You want your hard ark to be a stone that does nothing but polish. it's not like waterstones where you want that final stone to cut a little bit of a bevel, they just work differently, and folks who use oilstones like they'd use waterstones are destined to be frustrated.

This is the washita that I've been using a lot lately. It really doesn't make any difference which washita as long as you stick with it until it's settled in. This must be an old one because when I got it, it was worn hollow in the middle about 1/2 inch, and it was almost as thick as it is wide, and the bottom has an irregular cut. I used the hard surface on the end of a cheap belt sander and beat on it for about a half hour and it was close enough to flat at that point to finish it off on a DMT. (this kind of thing is freehand, too, no guides...har har....actually, it's stinky work, it ruins a sanding belt and it smells like fire when it's being abraded...I guess that's the smell of silicosis)

This stone has a little bit of metal swarf dried onto it (despite the fact that I used it several times today). That's what happens with WD 40....and you know, I've had mineral oil on this stone left as a film and it does the same thing. It disappears. I know it's not going into the stone because when I obliterated the high bits off of this stone, the oil didn't penetrate that deep into it. Well, I don't know anything, I'm just guessing by that.

297934


And this is the jasper, though now I think it might be unnecessary to use. It's cheap, though!! It isn't as sexy as trans or black arkansas, and it doesn't really ever cut anything (trans and black arks will cut a soft pocket knife pretty convincingly - jasper polishes everything).

297935

The jasper will make a2 sharp like a synthetic stone if you're willing to lean on it. As in the results look similar to the shaving in the first post of this thread. Woe be to the person who leaves a foreign particle on the surface of a stone this hard, though.

[David Weaver]

Oh, and just a random bit of natural stone loveliness - here's a semi translucent (but very dense, more dense than some trans stones I have) finisher that I got off of ebay last year. I'm trying to pawn it off on a few razor users, but I do think it's pretty.

297937

[Winton Applegate]

You want your hard ark to be a stone that does nothing but polish. it's not like waterstones where you want that final stone to cut a little bit of a bevel, they just work differently, and folks who use oilstones like they'd use waterstones are destined to be frustrated.

I am beginning to get a glimmer of the truth / fact of that.

I think to be totally clear for the people trying to understand this though that we should emphasize the term "Burnish" rather than "polish". Burnishing moves the metal around to smooth scratches, fill them in or remove them as if one were smoothing clay . . .
without actually removing any metal / swarf.

Again . . . I am not so sure this will have any practical effect on the cutting of the wood. It just looks good under the microscope.

And speaking of looking good under the microscope . . .
what say to my findings on a source for said Chinese stone. Am I out of luck ?
Tell me it isn't so !?!?

[Winton Applegate]

Or visy versy. Yo ! That semi trans looks very cool; like it belongs in a sci fi movie.

And yah that is one ugly dog in the first photo. Gets the job done though obviously.

I don't know what to think about the jasper. That is so foreign. Does one flatten something like that ? and if it isn't then doesn't the lines/ crevasses beat on the edge ?
My head is swimming.

Thank you for putting those photos up by the way !

[Brian Holcombe]

Fetch the cat o' nine tails.

[David Weaver]

Or visy versy. Yo ! That semi trans looks very cool; like it belongs in a sci fi movie.

And yah that is one ugly dog in the first photo. Gets the job done though obviously.

I don't know what to think about the jasper. That is so foreign. Does one flatten something like that ? and if it isn't then doesn't the lines/ crevasses beat on the edge ?
My head is swimming.

Thank you for putting those photos up by the way !


Oh...forgot the chinese stone. I guess they don't call it the chinese stone.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/144950/Natural-Water-Stone-8-x-2-34-x-1-14.aspx

Guangxi hone is a way you'll find it. Much like coticules, the bulk of this type of stone is mined for architectural use.

Far as the burnishing vs. polishing, I'm not sure how much these stones move metal and how much they remove metal, but even when settled way in, they do remove metal. Maybe it's a combination of both. It takes a little bit of skill to use them (but mostly just the desire to get results out of them and figuring out how).

I wouldn't expect to get woodworking edges akin to what Zowada gets on the razor. I'll bet his picture has sold a lot of chinese stones, but I see two problems with that:
* guangxi hones are variable. 2/3rds of them aren't that great, and 1/3rd of that 2/3rds (that's 2/9ths for the uninitiated) are too soft to be of use. No natural stone has very small particles, so if they get loose, you've got something at least on the order of 3 microns rolling around. Now, I could get an edge off of a *good* chinese stone on a razor that you wouldn't be able to differentiated between a 0.5 micron chrome ox edge, but it involves that burnishing and polishing.
* even on a great stone, we never would sharpen our tools like you would do to maximize a razor.

(what I'm saying is that you shouldn't buy a chinese stone if you don't like your oilstones - it's like a slightly less good version of an oilstone and it works on water. If it's a good one, though, it's good for razors)

Jasper - comes flat if you get it in a slab. It'll have just a few tooling marks on it, and be about 1/4" thick if you get a slab. People cut it up and make jewelry, so the sellers have to get it in what is more or less lumber for jewelry makers. If you find a big slab, for about 10 bucks you get something that can be used flat with water or WD 40, as long as you put it on a strong base (wood is fine). No need to remove any tooling marks on it. No clue on the particle size, probably similar to oilstone particles, but it cuts a little different (sharper) until it burnishes. It's much harder to lap than an oilstone - slippery hard. Nothing needs to be done with the edges unless razor sharpening is in order. It can literally be used in place of a strop, as it will remove a wire edge and not create a new one.

Steep learning curve, though. It's one of those stones that does exactly what you want it to when you learn to use it, but it doesn't do much. To someone who doesn't take the time it figure out how to use it, you just say "it doesn't do much".

With all of this novelty, though, I only care how sharp and how fast. Synthetics, washitas, etc, all work well. The chinese stone works less well so I don't use one.

[David Weaver]

By the way, with the jasper, you try not to get any large cracks, voids or foreign bits and pieces in it. The cracks on the one in the picture are tight, it doesn't affect an edge.

[Steve Bates]

Allow me to halt your slipping on another slope. Just mail that Lily White to me. I'm here to help you. :D

[David Weaver]

I am thinking of dumping a lot of my stones. I do have a lilywhite, too, but the label fell off (and resides in the stone's box - no sense in putting it back on a stone that's actively used).

(similar edge from both stones, though - the lilywhite just guarantees a fairly coarse stone - unless otherwise labeled - and a stone with a clear surface)

[Winton Applegate]

David,
Thank you for the further education and clarification.
I did see that Guangxi / natural water stone and was drawn to it. I am used to thinking along the lines of $600 for a natural Japanese stone of similar ilk so I guess I will pass on the $40 pot luck stone.

I was thinking "the Chinese stone" was a man made stone.

[David Weaver]

Well, I guess if you think of the $40 stone as a way to learn natural stones, it's really not a bad deal. The only good one that I ever had was from woodcraft, and they sent it to me years ago because I asked about it. At the time, I didn't have the wherewithal to actually figure out a good use for it with tools. That'd be different today, but it's not that easy to communicate. There are a lot of razor users who go to woodcraft to get those stones, but I don't know of too many woodworkers who do.

That said, a "good" stone for tools (japanese waterstone) should be doable for about $200, and that can include the mine stamp (which is useful for value - a stone from a known mine will be worth more than a stone where the mine isn't known, unless the mine is undesirable or not a kyoto/mt. atago).

Anyway, I guess I've spent anywhere between $45 and $500 on japanese stones, and while the $500 stones are nice, the stones in the $200 range are pretty much just as nice. The $500 stones are not really better than the $200 stones that I have, but I had to learn to buy the $200 stones. $200 spent wrongly can also get you junk - I have a perfect example of that in my drawer from a dishonest seller.

[Derek Cohen]

David

I have had one of these Chinese waterstones for about 7 or 8 years. I purchased it from one of the local woodwork stores. At the time Lee Valley were selling them as well, and there were some interesting - controversial - comments on the forums. I did not use it long as I found it frustrating: very hard, little if any feedback, extremely slow cutting, and I was not sure where it fitted in grit-wise (it is reputed to be between 10-12K).

Badger & Blade tag it well:

Pro’s
1.) Amazing deal, as they are inexpensive, readily available, large and all natural. A Natural Japanese Waterstone of this efficacy would cost thousands of dollars.
2.) Slow cutting… very hard to over hone, and works great for razors that “microchip” with faster cutting hones.
3.) These hones work exceptionally well, and since they are so hard after an initial lapping, you might not need to lap it ever again.
4.) These hones do not need to be soaked prior to use.

Con’s
1.) Very slow cutting – can be time consuming.
2.) Very hard – can take a long time to lap.
3.) These hones offer very little “feedback” and feel as if you are running your razor across smooth glass.
4.) Somewhat boring to use.

Perhaps I will give it another go now that I am used to ceramic stones. Here is mine. It is a grey-green colour (more grey) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Guangxi%20waterstone%20-%20Chinese%2012K/2_zps466f4272.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Guangxi%20waterstone%20-%20Chinese%2012K/1_zpsef258898.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

That's fairly accurate, except for the comment about what a japanese hone of similar ilk would cost. The most similar set of japanese hones is ozukus, which are a bit harder yet. A large ozuku stone is about $300.

Anyway, I agree with your comments in principle. The issue with natural stones is adjusting technique to use the stones. I could get along fine with the stone now, it's probably easier to use than jasper or chinese agate, and it can be slurried. But what frustrated me back then was that I was just slapping my chisels and irons into a honing guide and trying to use the chinese stone the same way someone would use a synthetic stone. The big problem with that is that it doesn't cut fast enough to do that.

the other big problem with them is about 15 people sell them, and the stones are sometimes not consistent from one stone to the next. A self slurrying stone is problematic because the particles aren't necessarily that small when they're loose. I haven't heard of any natural stone to this point that has particles smaller than 3 microns, so when they get rolling around in a slurry, the result is something less than what we can get on tools from something like a shapton cream or sigma power 13k.

Oh...and one final issue, the stone is about the same color as metal swarf - you can't see anything that it's doing.

If you got a very hard one that doesn't self slurry, then that's pretty good luck. But with stuff like A2 and V11 and HSS (from terry gordon, presumably), that stone is going to be DOA. It's far better to create a gentle edge on a razor. Coincidentally, the razor universe also has a little bit of the disease of trying to use every stone the same and not learn how each stone likes to work. A chinese stone works well with a little bit of pressure, but too much is trouble on a razor. It goes back to the subtleties of everything discussion - the satisfaction is in using something new and learning the subtleties.

It sounds like it's a good time to get it back out, there is a lot of similarity with the finisher ceramics and a settled in chinese stone. Careful, though, you can gouge the chinese stones, even as hard as they seem, they are not as resistant to an errant push stroke with the corner of a chisel as a novaculite or ceramic stone is.

[Derek Cohen]

Oh...and one final issue, the stone is about the same color as metal swarf - you can't see anything that it's doing.

Yep, that's the one!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Voigt]

You want your hard ark to be a stone that does nothing but polish. it's not like waterstones where you want that final stone to cut a little bit of a bevel, they just work differently, and folks who use oilstones like they'd use waterstones are destined to be frustrated.



I'm late getting to this thread, but wanted to chime in.

It's worth pointing out that there is a range of opinions on the quote above. Larry Williams says you should abrade your stones every time you use them, so they'll cut with maximum speed. Other people go their whole lives without abrading their stones. I'm agnostic on this; I think either strategy can work just fine. For myself, I abrade them regularly, maybe once a month. More if I'm in the shop a lot of hours.

[David Weaver]

You can do it either way. You'll get a finer edge off of a stone that's not lapped.

The edge off of a translucent arkansas that is freshly lapped will be considerably less keen than the edge that I get off of a washita. But the translucent arkansas will cut quickly if it's lapped - it's got large particles floating around in a slurry on the surface, and sharp freshly exposed edges.

I prefer not to do it on my finishing stones especially. I keep a soft ark that is "awake" at all times if I need to do something that removes brisk honing....who am I kidding, I have a couple of dozen stones that are OK for that, and half a dozen of them are in oil.....but the finishers, no.

Larry also states that the stones go out of flat too quickly, but that's mostly because of the way he's using them. If he used 2" stones and overlapped the edges of his stones while he used them, he'd never need to lap due to flatness. (I know you know this already Steve, just making generalized comments). Of course, that wouldn't help the fact that he likes to have a freshly lapped stone to work with.

The closest I get to abrading any of my finer stones is to take two washitas and rub them together if one has gone completely asleep, but I haven't even done that in a while.

[Matthew N. Masail]

If someone wanted to try this idea the cheap way, a fine India stone for 20$ and compound on MDF will create a really nice edge for woodworking. I'd recommend the India over the soft or hard arks, because the ark are minutely capable in term of metal removal. the hard I got from Natural whetstone company cuts extremely well, but still it's boarder line unless your working a small bevel.

[Warren Mickley]

I'm late getting to this thread, but wanted to chime in.

It's worth pointing out that there is a range of opinions on the quote above. Larry Williams says you should abrade your stones every time you use them, so they'll cut with maximum speed. Other people go their whole lives without abrading their stones. I'm agnostic on this; I think either strategy can work just fine. For myself, I abrade them regularly, maybe once a month. More if I'm in the shop a lot of hours.

You might be happier with a soft Arkansas stone, Steve. I think you would get about the same action as an abraded Translucent stone without the trouble of having to abrade it. And you could save the translucent stone for special times when you wanted a high polish. If you cut channels into a #4 file, the file might cut like a #1 file, a lot faster, or you could just get a #1 file and save the fine file for its best use.

[william sympson]

Mathew I have been doing what you suggest. I bought a PMV11 iron to replace a W1 in my jointer back in late June and have been using the only stones I have. I freehand on a coarse/fine India, and a hard ark...it works just fine for me . I did use some HF green compound on MDF just to see if there was a noticeable difference...but I found no advantage.

I do abrade both sides of the india as needed, which hasn't been that often. FWIW, I bought the thin Stanley replacement version of the PMV11 and love it. I can get it just as sharp as the W1 but it lasts so much longer and doesn't chip out like the A2 i have!

[Steve Voigt]

You might be happier with a soft Arkansas stone, Steve. I think you would get about the same action as an abraded Translucent stone without the trouble of having to abrade it. And you could save the translucent stone for special times when you wanted a high polish. If you cut channels into a #4 file, the file might cut like a #1 file, a lot faster, or you could just get a #1 file and save the fine file for its best use.

Warren, I'm not sure the file analogy really works, because you can pretty quickly remove a lot of the "brashness" from a freshly abraded stone, just by working the back of an iron for a few minutes. I wouldn't go downstairs and abrade my hard black just before I was about to take a final pass on something; I would typically do it at the beginning of a project, when there's lots of rough work to do.

It is highly likely, as you and Dave have suggested, that I'm leaving the higher levels of sharpness on the table, so to speak. That's ok with me; I never wanted to win the sharpening competition, but rather to get my tools sharp enough to work with. But there are other factors besides particle size. Abrading the stones regularly makes it a lot easier (for me; ymmv) to keep the back of the tool in good shape. And a fast-cutting stone means fewer strokes, which speeds up sharpening and makes it less likely that I will introduce the sort of geometry errors that can crop up when I have to take too many strokes.

But as I said before, I'm agnostic; people can use their oil stones however they want.

[David Weaver]

Well, I've sharpened it about a half dozen times so far (and actually dulled it that many, too). The washita is still fine. My washita is fully settled in, so that might have something to do with it.

The more I use it, the more I get used to sharpening and I think I can get 3 hones on a grind out of it this time, no jasper crutch, just a little extra work on the wire edge. I remove less of it per hone than I would with carbon steel for the simple fact it's harder to hone....but while I thought it might put the stone to sleep, it hasn't.

I'm going to use it making a try plane to match my jointer.

I still have a soft spot in my heart for carbon steel, of course, it's all I need, but the V11 is an interesting diversion.

Anyway, one quick way to wake up a washita a little is to sharpen something with wrought iron on it. One of my chisel sets has wrought iron backing, and it scours the surface a little bit, but just a little (which is enough).

[Warren Mickley]

I may not have been clear earlier. I really do think you might like the soft Arkansas. I have used this stone side by side with the black Arkansas for the last 35 years. The big difference between the soft Arkansas and the black is that the soft has more crevices. A black stone with lots of scratches is very much like a soft Arkansas. I think there is some evidence that the early 19th century woodworkers preferred the soft Arkansas and the Washita.

[Steve Voigt]

Warren, I have a soft ark and like it very much, but I have owned it for approximately 1/100 of the time you have had yours!

I have never used it as a finishing stone, but perhaps I will let one side settle in all the way and give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Graham Haydon]

Nice to see the India combo stone getting some love.