Solid wood panels and tops - limits without big machinery

[Gene Davis]

I would like to do some projects that have larger solid panels, and by larger I mean something like 42 x 42 inches. Heck, maybe larger. Glued up boards. There are some Stickley pieces I want to tackle, one of them a table.

The tools to be used are pipe clamps, hand planes, scrapers, a belt sander, and a random orbit sander. I have what it takes for prepping boards for the glueups: a good 6" jointer and a 12" planer.

I attack a freshly glued up panel first with a big jack plane, running across at maybe a 45 degree angle, to get rid of lippage. Then I will turn and look for the hills and try to deal with them with the jack and then follow with bench-sized planes. Then comes some scraping. After that, it is belt-sanding time, and lastly some work with the ROS.

I would like to get better flatness and wonder if there is one tool I am missing. Would one of the larger Festool ROS units be the ticket? Like the Rotex RO 150?

[Peter Quinn]

Better Flatness? With a ROS? Not likely. Its a small diameter tool that follows the lay of the boards you have assembled. Maybe you can level the corners of a door frame with 2" stiles, but not a table top. Oh, you can keep sanding until the ridges are gone, but thats not really flat. Best approach is to flatten the boards before glue up, thickness them precisely, and use cauls to maintain the best alignment possible. This will reduce much of the surface prep of the larger top and give you a flatter final result. I'd rather flatten 5 boards with a hand plane than a single 40"+ wide table glued up from boards whose grain goes in various directions and whose center is much harder to reach. If you want flat from hand tools you may want a much larger plane than a jack, perhaps a fore plane or jointer.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Two words - - - router sled.

Check it out.

[glenn bradley]

I'm with Peter on this one. Mill your boards prior to glue up and follow good panel assembly practices to assure a flat panel (there's lots of stuff on this on the web or in the magazines). If alignment is a challenge even following best practices, splines or glue-profile routed edges may help. When I glue up panels (at ounce or in stages for larger panels), unless something goes very wrong, a few swipes with a card scraper brings everything into line for things of an Arts and Crafts nature.

If you are going for that mirror finish that some styles use, the approach is different. Still, a hand held power sander is not your friend when it comes to flattening anything. Smoothing, yes. flattening, no. Try some small panels using square milled stock and clamping methods shown here and there. I think you'll be encouraged.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/video/jointing-boards-for-dead-flat-panel-glue-ups.aspx
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/35878/clamping-cauls-the-secret-to-great-glue-ups
http://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/woodworking-projects/how-to-improve-your-solid-panel-glue-ups/

[David Weaver]

Finish your work with a jointer plane, and set the cap iron on it properly to remove tearout. It should leave a very vivid finish on the surface with no tearout. If it doesn't get completely tearout free, set a smoother plane with it very close and take a set or two of through strokes.

There should be no hills or valleys if you can work your way across the table top making continuous shavings with your smoothing plane. If you have trouble getting the setup so that there are no lines (camber should eliminate them), you can do some light scraping.

I would forget about the sanding and all of that stuff, it's taking the life right out of the finished surface and not saving you any time (it's costing you a lot of time). Use a straight edge with your jack plane to eliminate creating large valleys where it's unnecessary. That should make the jointer and smoother step just somewhat routine work.

[Gene Davis]

Thanks to all. Yes, I know the importance of stock prep in the pre-glueup stage, and I try my best. Begin with rough lumber, joint one face flat, check with winding sticks, joint more if required to gain flatness. Then through the surface planer, working all the boards for the glueup as a batch, zeroing in on the final thickness with very light passes. I have always used a digital caliper when doing this stock prep.

Then edge jointing, doing all that is needed to joint to 90. Then biscuits to hold alignment when gluing. Clamps, cauls, all that stuff.

That Festool ROS cost would buy two or three very nice hand planes, wouldn't it?

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks to all. Yes, I know the importance of stock prep in the pre-glueup stage, and I try my best. Begin with rough lumber, joint one face flat, check with winding sticks, joint more if required to gain flatness. Then through the surface planer, working all the boards for the glueup as a batch, zeroing in on the final thickness with very light passes. I have always used a digital caliper when doing this stock prep.

Then edge jointing, doing all that is needed to joint to 90. Then biscuits to hold alignment when gluing. Clamps, cauls, all that stuff.

Hi Gene, my first suggestion would be to stop using the biscuit joiner.

They add no strength to the glue up, and reduce accuracy in the glue up compared to setting all the boards level using your finger to feel differences.

Another trick is to joint adjacent pieces using the opposit face so that if your jointer is 89.87 degrees, it balances out in the glue ep.

I only use a scaping plane for final flattening, if anything more than a cabinet scraper by hand won't suffice............Rod.

That Festool ROS cost would buy two or three very nice hand planes, wouldn't it?


That Festool ROS cost would buy two or three very nice hand planes, wouldn't it?[/QUOTE

Hi Gene, my first suggestion would be to stop using the biscuit joiner.

They add no strength to the glue up, and reduce accuracy in the glue up compared to setting all the boards level using your finger to feel differences.

Another trick is to joint adjacent pieces using the opposit face so that if your jointer is 89.87 degrees, it balances out in the glue ep.

I only use a scaping plane for final flattening, if anything more than a cabinet scraper by hand won't suffice............Rod.

[Steve Voigt]

I attack a freshly glued up panel first with a big jack plane, running across at maybe a 45 degree angle, to get rid of lippage. Then I will turn and look for the hills and try to deal with them with the jack and then follow with bench-sized planes. Then comes some scraping. After that, it is belt-sanding time, and lastly some work with the ROS.


If you need to follow your hand planes with a belt sander, something is seriously wrong with your planing setup. A properly tuned and sharpened plane will give you a finish that no ROS can match.

[John TenEyck]

Life is easy with a wide belt sander. Find a local shop that has one and pay them to flatten your glued up table tops. Sure you can do it by hand, but I have better things to do with my time. If you want to be cheap, use a router sled, as mentioned. And it's hogwash that you can't get the same clarity with a sanded surface as you get with one that's been hand planed. Actually, it's true - until you apply the finish.

John

[John T Barker]

A simple but costly answer to your issue is to match the width of your jointer and planer. Properly flattened and planed boards will be easy to glue up with only a little clean up necessary after. If you keep a straight edge handy when gluing up you can check often to see you've got the boards even and level. A good thing to remember in a lot of what you will do in woodworking there is a time and place for precision. Try to learn when and where it is needed.

[Steve Voigt]

Life is easy with a wide belt sander. Find a local shop that has one and pay them to flatten your glued up table tops. Sure you can do it by hand, but I have better things to do with my time. If you want to be cheap, use a router sled, as mentioned. And it's hogwash that you can't get the same clarity with a sanded surface as you get with one that's been hand planed. Actually, it's true - until you apply the finish.

John

If I glue up a large panel and do a decent job of aligning the edges, it will take me half an hour to flatten it with a jointer plane. Maybe 45 minutes on a bad day. So, in the time it takes you to pack that slab in your truck, haul it to the cabinet shop, pay them your hard earned money, pack it carefully back in the truck and drive home, I'm already done and drinking a beer.
Same problem with a router sled. It's painfully slow, takes time to set up, and leaves a wretched finish that is going to need to be planed or sanded. You would only do it that way if you lacked the skill to use a plane.
And no, it's not hogwash that a planed surface can, if done well, have superior clarity to a sanded surface.

[Frank Martin]

If you have good hand planes and skills to do it, I bet you will get there quickly through that option. If not and you are not willing to invest the time to develop the skills I don't think there is anything wrong with taking it to a cabinet shop with a wide belt sander. I have never done that, but don't see anything wrong with the idea.

[bill tindall]

The most simple solution to your need is to become skilled at gluing up the panels. If there is anything you need it would be better clamps. Pipe clamps are too flexible for the task. The aluminum ones that Lee Valley now sells are dandy for the task. I know the family that originally made them and they sold them into furniture factories. They are that robust. Anyway, I digress.......

With a bit of practice it is not hard to make one joint at a time near perfect. Until you get better at it, just glue one joint at a time rather than the whole panel. Strive for near perfect alignment along the joint by carefully coaxing the joint into alignment as you tighten the clamps. Some start at the middle and work out while others start at one end and work to the other. Practice

[ian maybury]

I guess good support arrangements for working a large solid top are advisable as well….

[scott vroom]

That Festool ROS cost would buy two or three very nice hand planes, wouldn't it?[/QUOTE

Hi Gene, my first suggestion would be to stop using the biscuit joiner.

They add no strength to the glue up, and reduce accuracy in the glue up compared to setting all the boards level using your finger to feel differences.

Rod.

Rod, that's exactly the conclusion I've come to as well.....using fingers to feel differences while slowly tightening clamps. I've found that tapping a slightly-out-of-alignment joint with a rubber dead hammer works well too if there's too much glue surface tension to squeeze flat with fingers.

[Mel Fulks]

The hammering IMO is only ok in an point that has not had the glue squeezed out. That's one of the good things about
hollow jointing ,you can put spring clamps on the ends, put a little pressure on the ends with bar clamps and move the
middle flush while tightening a bar clamp. Hollow jointing has a long successful history in spite of some like Ian Kirby who
flatly deny it. For decades I offered a bounty of $20 to any one who could show me a panel I glued that had opened on the ends. Interior or exterior and I've done thousands of them. I've seen hammered panels fall apart the same day the clamps
were removed.

[scott vroom]

The hammering IMO is only ok in an point that has not had the glue squeezed out.

I agree and to take it a step further, once the glue is squeezed out from clamping it's impossible to hammer flat. On my recent 10' glue up I painted the edges with a copious amount of TBII to allow some workability prior to clamping. Once clamped, game over.

[John TenEyck]

If I glue up a large panel and do a decent job of aligning the edges, it will take me half an hour to flatten it with a jointer plane. Maybe 45 minutes on a bad day. So, in the time it takes you to pack that slab in your truck, haul it to the cabinet shop, pay them your hard earned money, pack it carefully back in the truck and drive home, I'm already done and drinking a beer.
Same problem with a router sled. It's painfully slow, takes time to set up, and leaves a wretched finish that is going to need to be planed or sanded. You would only do it that way if you lacked the skill to use a plane.
And no, it's not hogwash that a planed surface can, if done well, have superior clarity to a sanded surface.

Good on you; I'm just not that good with hand planes. I've made more work for myself with them than I ever saved. And believe what you want about the superior clarity of a hand planed surface to a sanded one. Comparative results by FWW says there is no difference under a film finish. I certainly can't tell any difference. I guess I'm just not that good at a lot of things.

John

[Mel Fulks]

I see a difference between raised panels and table tops. Most today want table tops perfectly flat even though there are
fine antique tables that clearly show some undulation . Which can really look pleasing in candle light. Raised panels made
of mdf , especially if they are large,don't look quite right in a "colonial" type interior simply because they are TOO flat.
When making modern real wood panels there will be some variation in panel surface even when machines are used. Even
if it is only subliminally noticed . An architect designing a modern bank lobby might require plywood or mdf panels simply
because he wants a modern perfectly even surface. This is a good place to acknowledge that there is an expert level of flattening by hand than can exceed the flatness of a product like mdf. I once worked with a guy who made several dining
tables with multiple leaves using only hand tools simply because we didn't have a planer wide enough to machine them.
Even though the leaf order was carefully marked they could be used in any order and fit much better than anything in a
store. Even with gloss varnish you could not see any distortion in any type of light.

[Jim Matthews]

Good on you; I'm just not that good with hand planes. I've made more work for myself with them than I ever saved. John

I'm pretty good with handplanes and have done the same; made more work for myself.
It happens, and can derail a project quickly.

The point here is that if you move the tool over the wood, instead of feed the wood through the tool
you can make a panel of any size you like.

A properly set plane MUST travel in a plane defined by the furthest coplanar points in contact with the surface.
Really long planes can make for very flat surfaces, over great distances.

That said, I think you can get really close to flat with a properly built router sled.
I just don't like the noise and dust, and get to the same result pretty quickly
with a few handplanes.

FWIW - If you MUST sand a large flat surface, it pays to set up a large sanding "screed"
using a cut roll of sandpaper for a belt sander. Mine is made from a straight section
of hand rail from a stair project.

In my opinion, flattening with a ROS can be done, but it takes off material so quickly that
I return to my first imprecation - check often, with a known straight reference.

[John TenEyck]

This is a good place to acknowledge that there is an expert level of flattening by hand than can exceed the flatness of a product like mdf..

With all due respect, I would like to see an example of that.

John

[Mel Fulks]

Well, John the last time I saw that was about 1968. The 4/4 genuine mahogany we were getting then was not the soft stuff of today's 4/4 but was of a quality equal to ,or better than the 16/4 available today. Widths were routinely 30 inches
wide or more. The cabinetmaker was from Lithuwania , I wrote about him once before in a discussion about "secret dovetails" and his integrity in pretty forcefully refusing to remove some unusually clever secret compartments in a secretary
desk that had just been sold. The buyers wanted the cubbies removed and replaced with bookshelves. He gave the shop owner and couple buying the piece a demonstration of its hidden features
that was akin to a defense attorney's closing argument in a death penalty case. In working on those tables he relied mainly on a jointer plane and scrapers. No sanding coarser than 100 grit and all done by hand with a sanding block. I
think I did make a error in referring to "table leaves", maybe "extensions" is the correct word. Anyway the fits on top and ends was so good that finger tips could hardly discern them.

[David Weaver]

With all due respect, I would like to see an example of that.

John

I could easily do it. Easily. But I work only with hand tools.

It takes only a straight edge and proper use of a jointer.

I don't put much stake in FWW or anyone of the other publications doing a test or two and trying to make a definitive claim that the wood looks no different sanded or planed. It looks different even under finish unless your sanding goes to an extreme level, and nobody does that on a day to day basis (it would be stupid, anyway, because it would take several times longer than just learning to use a plane and plane the wood).

I hear this "there's no difference" so often that I'm inclined to take a piece of wood and plane it, finish it, photo it and then sand it and finish it and photo it (same piece of wood) to show the difference in its looks. Sanding takes away depth.

Whether or not a customer would care is different - they likely wouldn't ever notice.

[Jim Matthews]

Pine fence post material makes for excellent clamping cauls.

They must be uniformly flattened, first - but that's easier than
flattening large panels. Once arranged to define a plane,
the cauls become the assembly point for panels.

My mentor covers these with packing tape, to shed excess glue.

The ends are notched to accept all thread rod.

Panels are glued up and assembled on the cauls, and clamped snug.
Pipe clamps pull the panels together.

Minor adjustments made, the cauls are cinced tight and shims inserted where
gaps may appear.

This was developed for making multiple table tops.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Same problem with a router sled. It's painfully slow, takes time to set up, and leaves a wretched finish that is going to need to be planed or sanded. You would only do it that way if you lacked the skill to use a plane.
Granted - it's slow, but, use the right bit (a bottom cleanout bit) and the end result is more than satisfactory. It only takes a few passes with a ROS to finish it off.

[John TenEyck]

I could easily do it. Easily. But I work only with hand tools.

It takes only a straight edge and proper use of a jointer.

I didn't say you couldn't get it flat, only that I've never seen a large hand planed surface as flat as MDF, which is what Mel claimed.

I don't put much stake in FWW or anyone of the other publications doing a test or two and trying to make a definitive claim that the wood looks no different sanded or planed. It looks different even under finish unless your sanding goes to an extreme level, and nobody does that on a day to day basis (it would be stupid, anyway, because it would take several times longer than just learning to use a plane and plane the wood).

I hear this "there's no difference" so often that I'm inclined to take a piece of wood and plane it, finish it, photo it and then sand it and finish it and photo it (same piece of wood) to show the difference in its looks. Sanding takes away depth.

Please do. I'd love to see the difference of which you speak.

Whether or not a customer would care is different - they likely wouldn't ever notice.


I'd love to see examples that prove your statements. Opinions are fine, but data and photos are proof.

John

[John TenEyck]

Granted - it's slow, but, use the right bit (a bottom cleanout bit) and the end result is more than satisfactory. It only takes a few passes with a ROS to finish it off.

I'm not sure how others define slow. I did a 2' x 6' slab with a router sled in about 30 minutes per side, plus another 15 or 20 minutes with a ROS. No way I would have gotten it that flat, that quickly with hand planes, although I know others will say they can, have, could, etc.

John