What finish to make figured cherry pop!?!?

[George Farra]

Hi Everyone

I made a small table from cherry and the legs have a nice figured grain to them. After sanding, I wiped the peice with denatured alcohol and the grain just popped. The piece will be used to hold a small 5 gallon fish tank.....so I do want to put a coat or 2 of poly as a last step for better water protection.

What can I use under the poly to make the grain pop like it did when I wiped it down?

Thanks

George

[Jim Becker]

If the "poly" you are using is oil-based, that's all you need. If are using a water borne "poly", then you may want to use a very thin application of BLO with a barrier coat of de-waxed shellac for your "pop".

[George Farra]

Thanks Jim

Yes my poly is water based. Thought I'm thinking for this project an oil based poly may be the way to go. probably would give me better protection against moisture in the long run since a fish tank is going to sit on this table

George

[Prashun Patel]

Are you planning to build up a film? If yes, then I'd suggest a different finish from poly; use an alkyd or phenolic oil-based varnish instead. I just think it looks less like plastic when built up.

If you are not planning to make the film thick, then the benefit of this 'clarity' is less - um - clear.

[George Farra]

Thanks Prashun. I did build up a film then I made plant stands for my wife and I agree with the plastic appearance. I would like to avoid that. I've never worked with varnish. Would you suggest anything under it or will the varnish make the grain pop while adding the needed protection? Does it work similar to poly...meaning applied by brush, or can it be wiped on?

Thanks

George

[Prashun Patel]

Poly is a type of varnish. The other varnishes apply similarly. They can be brushed thick or thinned and wiped.

[George Farra]

thank you very much. Appreciate the help

[Jim Becker]

George, "poly" just refers to polyurethane resins in the finish. Polyurethane finishes were originally developed for abrasion resistance...such as for floors. They are quite durable in that respect. But they sometimes lack the clarity that other types of resins used to make "clear" finishes...hence, the reality that sometimes they have a more "plasticy" look. (They also don't like to even stick to themselves, but that's a whole 'nuther subject) Oil based varnishes that have other types of resins in their formula are often preferred for furniture products. The challenge is that they are harder to source because a large percentage of the clear finishes marketed by retailers are all polyurethane based. But "real" paint stores, such as Sherwin Williams stores will have alternative products available if you want a non-poly finish. Oil based varnishes are best applied with a brush, pad and/or roller because they dry slowly. They can also be thinned considerably with mineral spirits and wiped on in very thin coats. (about three wiped on per equivalent one brushed on) While they can be sprayed, most folks avoid that because the overspray tends to be a sticky mess because of the slow dry time. (Spraying is best for fast drying/curing finishes in that respect) I will mention that oil based finishes have some natural "warmth" in them because of the oils and resins...it varies by product, but these qualities are what makes it possible to skip some of the extra "popping" steps that were at the root of this thread.

Water borne finishes are kind of a different animal than oil based products. In most cases the "water" is just the carrier; the finish is suspended in the water for application and after a coat is on the project, the water evaporates and the finish cures. You really cannot thin water borne finishes very much at all. Why? Because the water is, as mentioned, just the carrier. Thinning by adding additional water means you're spreading out the actual finish molecules which after a point makes for a horrible result. That all said, most water borne finishes do not impart the "warmth" that is natural to oil based 'clear' finishes so we either add a little amber dye to add color or do the BLO and de-waxed shellac step to add both "pop" and color to wood. Most water borne finishes are great for spraying. They can also be applied with a brush, pad or roller, but one has to remember that you have very little time to "work" the finish, unlike with oil based products.

[Jim Matthews]

I like Waterlox (http://waterlox.blogspot.com/) on Cherry.

[Bob Wingard]

+1 on the WATERLOX ... I still thin it a LOT and wipe it on in several coats. The thin/wipe works great for any oil-based varnish. It just gives the surface a nice look, and I never get that plastic look.

[Prashun Patel]

George, I echo these guys on Waterlox. It's a phenolic varnish. here's what you need to know about buying waterlox though:

There is an Original Sealer Finish which is pre-thinned to be wiped on (you can brush it, but it'll take more than the full strength product). The OSF is also darker in color than the full-strength versions. There are also 2 versions of the OSF, the ORIGINAL, and the VOC Compliant version. You want the Original OSF formulation. It's cheaper and easier to apply than the VOC version. But you can only get it in quarts shipped to most states - not gallons. The OSF goes on very glossy, but cures over weeks to a semigloss.

If you want high gloss, you need to get the Waterlox Original Gloss Finish. It's in a green can. This product brushes very well, but in my limited experience doesn't thin very well with mineral spirits. For some reason I get streaks when wiping it thinned in MS.

If I were to go with Waterlox, I'd go with the OSF Original formulation. A quart will be plenty for your stand. Wipe it on. You may have to do more coats than if you brushed, but it's quite easy. It imparts great color to cherry.

[Jim Becker]

I sure wish there was a "like" button I could use on Prashun's post. (#11) :D

[George Farra]

Thank you all. I definitely want a warm look to the piece so I am going to find Waterlox's Original formula. Last night I made a design change and the top now features figured wood with a filled knot. So I definitely want the piece to have a rich warm glow to it versus a plasticy coating. Now with this wood as the top....I probably wont be covering it up with a fish tank!! Looks like a have a new project to start once this is done :)

Again. thank you so much for your help

George

[Kent A Bathurst]

Pix, please, when done.

[Jim Rimmer]

Pix, please, when done.

Yep, gotta have the pix, otherwise it didn't happen. :D

[George Farra]

I will definitely post a pic when I'm done, thanks

[Jerry Olexa]

BLO will do the grain popping..Be sure to let it dry thoroughly before next coat.

[Bob Wingard]

Yeah ... give it at least 30-40 years before calling it dry ... (it still won't be dry though)

[ron david]

Yeah ... give it at least 30-40 years before calling it dry ... (it still won't be dry though)
your more than likely taking about RLO. you can overcoat BLO after an overnight sit
most polys will not give you the pop that BLO will give , but use poly overtop the blo
ron
a little knowledge is dangerous

[Bob Wingard]

Nope .. not at all referring to raw linseed oil ... in fact, I don't even think you can buy it easily anymore. I'm talking about the same old crap you get at the home stores ... BLO. It never really dries ... in fact ... put some on a piece of wood ... let it attempt to dry for your standard 24 hours ... then, warm it with a heat gun ... it IS dry, right ??? Odds are it will liquify, and come running out of the pores at the surface. All it does is migrate deeper into the wood and sit there ... it never really dries/cures/hardens or whatever you want to call it. I've stripped antiques and left them sitting on the bench ... afternoon sun came around through the window, and the piece got so warm that the oil was dripping from it ! Nasty stuff that has NO place in a modern shop. Exactly WHAT does this crap do for you that can't be accomplished in a safer & more sane technique ??

[Prashun Patel]

I'm sure you're right, Bob, in many cases; and I defer to your experience. But in my short experience, if you wipe it off (as if you are applying an oil/varnish finish) it dries 'enough' to be a perfectly obedient substrate to most hard finishes, including polyurethene. I agree that the benefits of BLO are debatable, but so too is the magnitude of its negatives.

[ron david]

Nope .. not at all referring to raw linseed oil ... in fact, I don't even think you can buy it easily anymore. I'm talking about the same old crap you get at the home stores ... BLO. It never really dries ... in fact ... put some on a piece of wood ... let it attempt to dry for your standard 24 hours ... then, warm it with a heat gun ... it IS dry, right ??? Odds are it will liquify, and come running out of the pores at the surface. All it does is migrate deeper into the wood and sit there ... it never really dries/cures/hardens or whatever you want to call it. I've stripped antiques and left them sitting on the bench ... afternoon sun came around through the window, and the piece got so warm that the oil was dripping from it ! Nasty stuff that has NO place in a modern shop. Exactly WHAT does this crap do for you that can't be accomplished in a safer & more sane technique ??
you must be pretty good at this to know what was dripping out of an old piece of furniture. how long have you been in business doing this?
ron

[Jim Becker]

I've used BLO since I first started woodworking for "grain popping" and have never had an issue with it...very thin coating to just do the job and then on to the next steps the next day. I've even used Jewitt's method of BLO, shellac and top coat in the same day with zero issues. One of the candle stands in my great room was finished that way. Modern BLO has either metallic dryers (non lead) or some other method for promoting drying, such as the polymerization that T&T uses with it's metallic dryer free formula.

The bottom line is use the method you prefer and that works for you...

[Bob Wingard]

Been doing various phases of woodworking/finishing/refinishing for 55 years ... old nasty linseed oil is like marijuana ... once you know the smell, you will always recognize it. And, before you ask ... I know the smell of weed because of a career in law enforcement.

Think about BLO this way ... ANY liquid, when in contact with a dry substrate, will always try to migrate from an area of high concentration to an area of less concentration. That is the ONLY reason you are able to topcoat blo successfully. It migrates deep into the body of the wood, and then, just sits there. Years later, if you strip the finish and give it a clear path to the outside, along with some heat to reduce it's viscosity, IT WILL MOVE and try to go towards the heat and it's escape path. That is what I experienced while refinishing some antiques ... the blo got warm from the sunlight and moved towards the surface. You would not believe how much acetone and paper towels it takes to dry up the surface of something like that.

[Scott T Smith]

I sure wish there was a "like" button I could use on Prashun's post. (#11) :D


Me too, except that I would be using it on your post #8 along with Prashun's post :D Great info guys!

[David Ragan]

So the Waterlox OSF would be better than Danish Oil? For the cherry blanket chest?

My finishing experience is very limited. What has turned out well has been just dumb luck.

Pretty much everything looks better with Danish Oil, but it has to cure a long time to not get into blankets, etc, right?

[ron david]

So the Waterlox OSF would be better than Danish Oil? For the cherry blanket chest?

My finishing experience is very limited. What has turned out well has been just dumb luck.

Pretty much everything looks better with Danish Oil, but it has to cure a long time to not get into blankets, etc, right?
do not use an oil or oil based varnish on the inside of anything as that smell will not leave.
ron

[Kevin Andrist]

George, "poly" just refers to polyurethane resins in the finish....

True, but to put a finer point on it.. 'poly' just refers to "more than one". Mono-mers (monomers, with mono meaning "one", "mer" would be a "unit") are the raw materials to synthesize into poly-mers (polymers, = "many mers", "many units"). Then comes the various polymeric chemistries. Polyurethane, polystyrene, polyacrylic, polyurethane-acrylic, polystyrene-acrylics, polycarbonate, polysulfide..........etc.

Coatings formulations can then be solvent based or water based, with 'based' indicating the carrier. Solvents reduce the viscosity of solvent based resins (polymers), among other things. Water based polymers exist as basically very tiny (nanometer range) billard balls stabilized in water by surfactants (soaps). Solvents (coalescing agents) are added to water based finish formulations to help in film formation. You lay down a coating of a water based finish, the water evaporates prior to the solvents, the remaining liquid increasingly becomes richer in solvents, the billard-balls start to dissolve, a film forms, solvents evaporate and your done.

All that is a simple description of how it all works..there are many finer points, exceptions, hybrids..... beyond this..

I'm an old polymer chemist..habits die hard. Someone refers to a coat of 'poly' and it always throws me..poly(what)?

[Jim Becker]

Kevin, in context, "poly" generally refers to finish with polyurethane resins here, but you are absolutely correct that there are more detailed meanings in chemistry!