Black Painted Acrylic "Art" Plaques ... Caution

[Bill Stearns]

Hi All -
I got my first order 'other day for one of those black-painted acrylic "art plaques". Not to be engraved with text - but instead, with a baby's picture. I was a nervous wreck 'cause of the $34 wholesale price. Figured I only had one-go at it, 'else I'd loose my shirt! ONE WORD OF CAUTION for anyone planning to use these for the first time: A peel off brown paper protects the front surface. But, you DO NOT peel off the back protective paper; you engrave thru it! I picked at the backing; wouldn't tear off - called JDS to ask 'bout this. I suggested they somehow let people know when ordering; said they would. (I've peeled off the backing on other regular black-painted acrylics.) I'm a terrible photographer - but, here's how the plaque turned out. Also: Would like to know if any of you are experiencing success marketing these; how well they sell for you?

Have 'great day everybody!
Bill
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[Dan Hintz]

Overall it looks like you nailed the picture, but it looks like you have an issue with banding... may want to track down the source and eliminate it before the next plaque.

[Glen Monaghan]

Like Dan said, unless that banding across the face is an artifact of your photograph, I'd want to address that before doing more because, as a customer, I wouldn't be very happy getting a picture with that flaw.

As for losing your shirt if you wrecked the substrate, my take on the matter is, since that is an issue for you, you aren't charging enough for the job. I look at my material cost and try to make sure that I'm covered for a replacement if something goes horribly wrong and I have to scrap the original. May not make much or anything from a job in that case, but don't go into the hole either.

For frequently used substrates where you have more experience and less chance of ruining one, you might only have to add enough to cover 1 replacement in 10 or 100 or whatever your experience and comfort zone dictates. But, for custom work with infrequently used and/or expensive substrates, that might mean factoring at least double the wholesale cost into your price. Could be that you find this makes it too expensive for your clientele, in which case you either need to move toward higher-end clientele, switch to lower cost substrates, turn down that sort of work in the future, or bite the bullet and hope it doesn't go off in your mouth (so to speak).

[Art Mann]

That advice sounds like raising the price to compensate for one's lack of experience. That is a losing proposition in a competitive market.

[Ross Moshinsky]

The awards industry's standard markup for many many many years has been 2-3x markup on the material + engraving/setup. Also plenty of people charge because it's a new process for them. It's the consumer's choice whether they want to pay it or shop around. An example of this is if you know your mechanic well but they don't have a lot of experience with your vehicle. Do you bring it to some new guy or pay the guy you trust a bit more?

[Joe Pelonio]

I have done a lot of memento photos on tiles which can be mounted or used as a kitchen trivet, and they only cost a dollar each. The difference is that the photos come out brown/gray on white, and are 12"x12" but if I had any problems I was only out $1 and some time. I always ran a test of a new photo on card stock before the actual substrate. You do appear to have a banding issue, which can have several causes. One is a resolution set too high, another is the bearings having a little slop that is not enough to show up with normal engraving. Sometimes it helps to make the head go beyond both edges of the work. In other words, add a vertical line at least an inch to the right and to the left of the image in the photo file. That way the return to the other direction on each pass is not firing on your substrate, and by the time it gets there it's at the correct speed again.

[Bill Stearns]

Thanks for your input guys! - as always. "Banding" - think the "lines" - above the baby's eyes (if that what you mean by "banding" - may be due to my lousy snap-shot. Don't remember seeing 'em on the piece itself. At any rate, my customer was ecstatic! - loved her plaque! Even tipped me $10! Which, yeah, probably tells me I wasn't charging what I could've, or should've, right? (2-1/2 X cost; no set-up.) I do tend to underprice what I do. Think my anxiety was as much to do with my customer's immediate need for the plaque, as much as replacement cost. (JOE: that business you mention 'bout making the head go beyond both edges - I'll see. - 'little beyond me.) Also: have been thinking I should maybe install new lenses 'n mirrors - being 8-1/2 years 'n all - would dirty lenses cause "banding"? Thanks again - all.

Bill

[Glen Monaghan]

I suppose you could look at it as compensating for your lack of experience, but most people see it as a fact of life that sometimes things don't work out and you should plan for that. As Ross said, such markups have long been a common practice in related industries. If your market is so competitive that you can't ensure you'll make a profit (or at least not lose money) if something goes wrong on a job, then it sounds to me like you're in a race to the bottom...

[Bill Stearns]

Morning All -
One more post, then that's probably enough on this subject, uh? Your posts alerting me to "banding" in my baby photo (shown above) were very helpful: possible causes 'n how to eliminate, etc. - thank you! Went back 'n looked at the original photo; showed no cause for "banding". (will grease my bearings/slide rails, today, as a start.) Somehow, my sharing with you my anxiety over engraving a $35 (cost) plaque (no time to replace it, if an error) lead to a discussion of "industry mark-up practices". (?) By "loosing my shirt" I meant: had it been necessary for me to use a second plaque 'n failed. I didn't have to. 'Couple of posts suggested: I charge enough to cover, not just the one item, but the cost of two (or, more?) - if I were to mess up. Good that some can; this hasn't been my practice. I simply "eat" errors and re-dos. Errors, or not, it's still based upon the retail I quoted my customer. The idea of charging for possibly messing up is foreign to me. 'Though I sometimes decide not to offer that particular product anymore - if it presents a costly risk. That's why I was asking earlier if anyone is doing real well selling these acrylic art plaques. ? To GLEN who apparently feels I am in a "race to the bottom" cause of my pricing practices, I can only say: I am not!

'Great Day, guys!
Bill

[Ross Moshinsky]

Pricing: http://www.drjds.com/flipbooks/ACRYL1P/ Use it. Also google the item number and you'll find other retailers selling the item. Use the information. You should be doubling your money + engraving/setup on a one off item like this. If you were in a retail setting in a different part of the country, the pricing should probably be more.

As for the product: I like the way they look but I feel they are too expensive to be easily profitable. I also think Victory's quality control is garbage. So much of their stuff has issues it's ridiculous. My last issue with those plaques is I've always found I needed to crank up the power to get through the unnecessarily thick black coating and often need to make two passes which really makes it hard to be profitable. With a higher power laser, it's probably not a concern, but for me, it is.

On a side note, I do not market engraving photos. Even in this day in age of digital photography and high quality smart phone cameras, it's always such a task to get photos of decent quality.

[Bill Stearns]

[QUOTE=Ross Moshinsky;2315712]Pricing: http://www.drjds.com/flipbooks/ACRYL1P/ Use it. Also google the item number and you'll find other retailers selling the item. Use the information. You should be doubling your money + engraving/setup on a one off item like this. If you were in a retail setting in a different part of the country, the pricing should probably be more.

ROSS -
Thanks for providing that site - I'll try it. For sure, lots goes into establishing a retail price for an item; always good to have some idea what others charge. Although I typically don't allow competitions' pricing to influence mine. Always someone out there priced for less. I do use recommended MU's - it's the "set up fees" where I probably am missing the boat. Have 'great weekend!


Bill

[Glen Monaghan]

Bill,

I wasn't addressing my "race to the bottom" comment specifically to you. That was a reply to Art, who said, "[Glen's] advice sounds like raising the price to compensate for one's lack of experience. That is a losing proposition in a competitive market." You have to set your price to be viably profitable or your business will eventually fail. Realistically, a lot of businesses do fail because they didn't set their prices to compensate for their lack of experience, whether that lack is in knowing how to estimate sufficient time to complete the job, determining how much material would be needed or how much waste to expect. If you don't factor in all your expenses and you try to compete solely on price, by definition you are in a race to the bottom so, while I wasn't directing that remark to you, only you know if it applies to your situation...

As for your expression "losing my shirt", that implies (to me) a significant loss, something that is decidedly detrimental to the business. That interpretation led me to suggest you should re-evaluate how you set prices, and to think about alternatives such as moving toward higher-end clientele (where you could sustain higher pricing/margins), using lower cost substrates (that allow you to serve your current clientele with current pricing but less financial risk), or turning down similar work in the future if one failure would truly be a hardship. Even in Art's "competitive market", you still have to do your best to ensure profitability or you indeed are in a "race to the bottom." There are many ways to set your pricing for profitability while remaining competitive, but do remember that being competitive is NOT the same thing as having the lowest price! Some of the most successful businesses get that way by positioning themselves to address a market that values factors such as quality, service, timeliness, innovation, and/or other aspects (could be something as simple as a "brand" name) more than low price. Sometimes, you compete most successfully in a market by redefining your market place!

However, if you don't factor in all the pricing variables somehow, you risk slowly "bleeding to death" in a financial sense, no matter what your market. You say the idea of charging for something that might possibly happen is foreign to you, but I bet that isn't really true. Do you pay for insurance on your car? Do you plan for the day when your laser tube dies and needs recharging or replacing? Do you expect to ever have need or desire to upgrade or replace equipment you currently have? You have to factor those expenses into your pricing just the way you factor in expected expenses such as your utilities, raw materials, shipping and handling costs (both charged to you for materials you buy and charged by you for finished product that you sell), equipment maintenance or repairs, automotive expenses, and yes, the occasional ruined substrates (whether because you made some mistake with laser settings or positioning the substrate in the engraver, or a power failure ruins a run, a part doesn't cut cleanly and has to be re-done, or whatever the cause). If you don't factor those possibilities into your pricing, how can you sustain your business and prosper? At best, you may have reduced profitability while, at worst, your business could become unsustainable.

You don't have to charge enough to cover the cost of two (or, more) substrates, just (as I said) enough to cover your expected wastage without "losing your shirt". Only you can determine whether that means allowing for 1 re-do per order, 1 in 10, or 1 in 1,000,000, and it's probably more important when talking about a $30 plaque than a $1 piece of baltic birch. You say that it hasn't been your practice to account for wastage, and I'm just suggesting that you should consider changing your practice if you want your business to prosper. Even an experienced guy like Art is going to have a re-do now and again and can't afford to lose money on very many jobs because of it.

(Please don't take my commentary as negative or harsh criticism. It just so happens that I've been deep in the throes of examining my own practices recently and the whole topic is looming large in my mind just now.)

[Ross Moshinsky]

ROSS -
Thanks for providing that site - I'll try it. For sure, lots goes into establishing a retail price for an item; always good to have some idea what others charge. Although I typically don't allow competitions' pricing to influence mine. Always someone out there priced for less. I do use recommended MU's - it's the "set up fees" where I probably am missing the boat. Have 'great weekend!


Bill

I should be clear, I don't use the pricing verbatim but I will pull out a retail catalog at the counter and use it as a guide. I have a completely different pricing structure but it's good to pull out a catalog sometimes and say "MSRP says it should be $90+ engraving but I'll do........". It's no different than going to Macy's and buying something "on sale" when in fact, it was the same price 3 days ago.

[Bill Stearns]

GLEN & ROSS -
Thanks 'gain for your input: advice on setting retail pricing, etc. (Plus, I learned 'bout "banding" earlier 'n that was helpful.) I obviously shouldn't have used the phrase "losing my shirt"; painted an ugly picture. Was referring only to that one worrisome (plaque) project; not to my over-all pricing practices or the health of my business in general. Still, yours was a good reminder - all of us are wise to review 'n maybe revamp our pricing strategies from time to time; to ensure those key points you mentioned are covered. (S&H, mess-ups, future equipment replacement costs ... ) You were right to point-out: It can prove deadly, if we don't! For me, this is done, not product-by-product, but by keeping an eye on my "net profit margin percent" - my bottom/bottom-line. I know the topic of "hot to price" has been posted 'fore - still, always a topic of interest, always something to learn - maybe, one of you would like to start a fresh post on the topic? How 'bout you GLEN - as it's apparently on your mind? Please do!

Bill

[Chuck Stone]

Even in this day in age of digital photography and high quality smart phone cameras, it's always such a task to get photos of decent quality.

That's because even the best high quality smart phones still don't have the resolution of
a 35mm camera yet .. and that was never a high benchmark anyway. The technology is
out there to do it, but people don't want to pay for it. So resolution and quality have
been going down in favor of smaller size and more images stored. (as if carrying extra
memory cards was such a chore..)

[Joe Pelonio]

My decent phone takes pictures that run about 2 MB at the highest resolution. With my digital camera set at the highest resolution in RAW mode, it may be 200MB, and that's needed when converting to a tif for large format printing. I have used such high resolution files to engrave on anodized aluminum for a job and it takes forever to run, but the image is amazingly clear.

[Bill Stearns]

My decent phone takes pictures that run about 2 MB at the highest resolution. With my digital camera set at the highest resolution in RAW mode, it may be 200MB, and that's needed when converting to a tif for large format printing. I have used such high resolution files to engrave on anodized aluminum for a job and it takes forever to run, but the image is amazingly clear.

JOE -
My original post - this thread - sure took off running in different directions! From my learning 'bout "banding", to an analyst of my anxiety over engraving on a costly acrylic plaque - to discussing our retail pricing practices - and back (I guess) to photography. It's evident I don't know much 'bout cameras - 'though I do engrave plenty of photographs into wood, black granite tiles 'n LaserBlak. Always asking my customers for 300 dpi, or higher; rarely getting it. Feel bad, sometimes: once-in-a-lifetime photos taken on cell phone cameras (i.e. hunting & fishing) taken at dawn, or dusk. Still, at times, I've done wonders using Photoshop - that's why I was caught off guard 'bout the "banding" issue. (attaching the original baby's photo 'n the black-acrylic engraving.) With baby's skin so pure 'n white, sometimes, I did do 'little "shading" - may have caused the "banding" effect - don't know.


Bill
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[Joe Pelonio]

I don't think so, that definitely looks like the typical laser banding that comes with the large lighter/whiter areas. Horizontal in the same path as the head takes when engraving.

[Chuck Stone]

My decent phone takes pictures that run about 2 MB at the highest resolution. With my digital camera set at the highest resolution in RAW mode, it may be 200MB, and that's needed when converting to a tif for large format printing. I have used such high resolution files to engrave on anodized aluminum for a job and it takes forever to run, but the image is amazingly clear.

Interesting.. I don't know what you have for a digital camera...
But I'm not aware of a digital camera that has a sensor that large.
I'm guessing that the software may be interpolating (basically, inventing
the extra data) to get the larger file size. Personally, I'd opt for storing
more images and use my own software to do the same thing, but giving
me the control.

[Martin Boekers]

Bill, sometimes these threads go on a wild coaster ride... :)

Banding can be caused by a variety of things. If you have a file at 300DPI try to engrave at multiples IE 600, 1200 etc
If you want to engrave at 400 save the file to that.

When I use PhotoGrav for the conversion the image needs to be to size and position that it will engrave when I process
it for the best engraving. Check with that. Same when scanning, you can get a "Moire" affect if the image has lines and not
scanned at the right resolution.

A final word on pricing.... :) There will always be an amount of unsalable product for a variety of reasons. I have a area
that I feel is reasonable percentage and go from there. Through the years I know what products have a higher chance of engraving flaws
or set ups, those I adjust my pricing curve. There are some products that I just quit carrying as what I would have to charge puts clients
out of the ballpark. It's a tightrope walk to establish inventory and stay away from one ups as shipping cost would kill me.

Enough for that! :)

Let us know when you resolve the banding issue!