#4 smoother compared to 4 1/2

[Bruce Mack]

A few years ago I bought a LN 4 1/2 at a hand tool event. I love it and use it for my present small scale work of boxes, edge jointing and flattening relatively small panels. It is heavy at 5 1/2 pounds. I'm thinking I should have gotten the #4 cast iron. At 4 pounds it sounds more manageable.
I was going to go to the Oct. 10-11 tool event here to try it, but will not be able to attend. Has anyone personally addressed this question? (I recall the woman demonstrator expressing her preference for the 4 1/2 over the 4. I probably outweighed her by 50 + pounds. So much for equating strength and size).

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Bruce,

I use all three of what are considered smoother size planes. Sometimes a #3 feels more suited for a piece than either the #4 or a #4-1/2.

Of course mine are old Stanley/Bailey planes. They are a little lighter than the LN versions, but are progressive through the range.

jtk

[David Weaver]

It sounds like LN had a preference for what I'd call wood show planing, which is using a heavy plane to take thin shavings.

Someone told me a year or two ago that the demonstrator recommended using the #8 for smoothing a particular board because it made the planing smoother. I can't imagine doing day to day work doing that. They were mortified when the person who mentioned that tried to take a heavy shaving with an 8 to see how it would work in a realistic scenario. (Recall Bill Tindall also told us that one of the professional cabinetmakers around CW was told by them that he was using the saw improperly when he picked up a dovetail saw to try it out, and he put it down and walked away rather than informing them that they had some due diligence to do before they made the comment to him).

When it comes down to smoothing, though, it's entirely personal preference. I like smoothers that are 2" wide and 3 pounds or so for most stuff. Used to love huge heavy smoothers, but I just don't as much any longer. Stanley's 4 is in the range of 3 pounds, and the bedrock 604 1/2 that I got off of a junk shelf is about 5 pounds. I don't know why so much difference in their offerings. Heavy is nice if wood is really hard, though. not necessary, but nice (by hard, I mean like harder than hard maple hard).

I would rely on your own preferences more than those of the demonstrators traveling with tool shows, etc. We don't know how much they work, how they work, or why they think what they think. If you think the 4 1/2 feels like playing ping pong with a cast iron pan (as Warren once described heavy smoothers), then try one of the lighter planes. Years ago, I assumed that I'd always work faster with a wider plane, and that a narrower plane would produce inferior results, but that didn't turn out to be true. I work at least as fast with a 4, probably faster.

Not to confuse what I think is odd advice as anything to do with their tools, though. LN's tools are really excellent, and their service is really excellent.

[Prashun Patel]

Based on the price and popularity and speed of resale of 4 1/2's, I conclude that most people opt for a 4 and a 5 instead of a 4 1/2.

Your situation may be different.

If you are looking to add instead of replace, you might consider a 3 instead. That will be very light and nimble. You can then use your 4 1/2 for final passes only - where the you'll appreciate but won't be fatigued by the mass.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I have a bronze #4 and am considering getting a 4 1/2 due to the fact that it is slightly wider, and I also like a heavy plane- as David said, personal preference. I think Prashun has good advice- since you have a 4 1/2, get a 3 as an addition. The difference between a 4 and a 4 1/2 isn't huge.

My situation is a little different because I build boats and wood surfboards where often I have a slightly curved surface, so for those I actually prefer a 2. When building smaller items like boxes I like a 3. For a table, door, cabinet, etc, I personally prefer a big, wide, heavy plane. I got the 4 because I live in the tropics and wanted a bronze plane that I have less to worry about rusting, but I really have my eye on getting a 4 1/2. Ultimately it comes more down to personal preference, although in the obove examples, there are some other factors like the size of the item, and whether you are planing it flat or a curved surface.

Just my input. I say keep buying until you have every single one, and then get more. :-)

[Bruce Mack]

[QUOTE=Malcolm Schweizer;2314989] I think Prashun has good advice- since you have a 4 1/2, get a 3 as an addition. The difference between a 4 and a 4 1/2 isn't huge.


Thank you everyone. It's hard for me to sell something I use and like, even though in hindsight the #4 would have been better. Adding a #3 will enlarge the family with no near replication. I'll do it :)

[David Weaver]

It's money in suspense as you hold it. I'd keep it. I've sold a lot of planes I didn't have to for money reasons (I have had to sell some for space reasons), but as I look back, would I be just as well off if I had kept those other planes - money wise? I think so. None of them have declined in value since I've sold them. The only thing that has that I can think of is infill planes.

Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley's best designs are so stable that they could practically be traded as currency on the international market (they'd often fare better than the dollar).

Of course, if you want to sell it just because it bothers you to have tools you don't use that much or because you have to chase rust where you are, that's entirely reasonable, too.

[Prashun Patel]

Wait a sec! A #3 isn't for everyone - just as a 4 1/2 isn't for everyone. In some hands a #3 feels like a too-big block and too-toy-like smoother.

I like mine, but am probably in the minority and don't want to guide you wrong; I'd hate to see you regret another purchase before you got to try it.

I'd hold off until you can try it for yourself.

[lowell holmes]

I have a #3 Bailey. I don't use it often, but when I need it, I'm really glad I have it. It is like a large block plane, but it performs like it should, being a full size plane.

Having said that, I had a 4 1/2 LN and sold it. I bought a LV BU smoother. I now use the LV BU or more often than not, My 604 Bedrock. With the LV iron and chip breaker in it, it does a great job, and is not too large.

[Adam Cruea]

I've grabbed almost every plane between a #2 and a #8.

As Mr. Weaver has stated, it's all personal preference. I'm sure what I use my #8's for, some people would have a heart attack about. I'm sure what I use my #2 for, some people would tell me is a completely stupid use.

My LN #4 1/2 is my final go-to smoothing plane because it's at 50* pitch, heavy, and wide. I appreciate it's heft and the thinner-than-paper shavings it takes and the tear-out it eliminates. However, my 604, 603 and #2 are all used for only spot smoothing; I take a straight-edge, pull it along a board, and look for high spots. Depending on size of high spot, I pick the size of smoother that best handles it.

[Bruce Mack]

Wait a sec! A #3 isn't for everyone - just as a 4 1/2 isn't for everyone. In some hands a #3 feels like a too-big block and too-toy-like smoother.

I like mine, but am probably in the minority and don't want to guide you wrong; I'd hate to see you regret another purchase before you got to try it.

I'd hold off until you can try it for yourself.

Point taken though it will be a year before the event returns. I do have a LV low angle smooth plane of 3 1/2 pounds which I like, about the same weight as the #3. Maybe hide my credit card and hope for enlightenment.

[Jim Matthews]

The 4 1/2 is an excellent plane, suitable to about 3/4 of most planing tasks.

I would be asking myself what it cannot do, that still needs to be managed by hand.


I would recommend the LN 62 over a #3.
Less money, and more versatile.

Do any mitering, using a shooting board?

You can do more, different procedures with this than a smaller
version of the Bedrock design.

[Winton Applegate]

If the wood you are planing is easily plane able then wider is better. The harder the wood and the more problematic the narrower is better. The first plane I made (ta dahhhhh a double iron) I made to take the LN 4-1/2 blade and chip breaker. She works well but is a handful when the wood is hard.

My latest wood body plane is the Old Street shown and it has a blade similar in width to the #3.
More all around versatile (width wise).

I know these aren't exactly what you asked about.
As far as LN goes I really liked my #3 but the handle didn't work for me at all and I had to go with a #4 I never really considered getting a #4-1/2 though. I have a LN #7 so had a pretty good idea of what the #4-1/2 would have been like. I tried that width in the woody and it isn't really for me.

What I am saying , in short , is GO FOR THE NARROWER PLANE YOU MIGHT LIKE IT. I do.

[Winton Applegate]

a bronze plane that I have less to worry about rusting

Now that's an interesting tac. I never considered that one before. Hmmmmm
I have the LN #4 in bronze (takes more waxing to cut down on the inherent extra drag of the bonze but it is a good looker as well). I got the #1 in white bronze also.
No rust on them like you said:D but then I live in the desert so what do I know.:o

[Winton Applegate]

you can try it for yourself
Just walk into any WoodCraft and ask to try the #3.
At least my WC will let you plane a board with one of their display planes. I walk in with my own board put it on a bench on display and ask for the planes I want to try.
They sold me a lot of planes by playing ball like that. Including my LN #7

PS: You might sweep up when you are done. My guys won't let me but I always offer.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Now that's an interesting tac. I never considered that one before. Hmmmmm
I have the LN #4 in bronze (takes more waxing to cut down on the inherent extra drag of the bonze but it is a good looker as well). I got the #1 in white bronze also.
No rust on them like you said:D but then I live in the desert so what do I know.:o

I have to hermetically seal my workshop and wear this http://www.wolfhazmat.de/interspiro/Trellchem_SUPER.jpg to prevent rust where I live. Let's not do another rust thread, but I do love that the bronze plane doesn't have to be oiled, except the iron, and never needs to be sanded of rust spots.

[Jim Matthews]

I would think the hardest part is hanging up your jacket after the commute.

297374

Similar conditions here, cast iron practically evaporates.

[Jim Matthews]

My latest wood body plane is the Old Street shown and it has a blade similar in width to the #3.
More all around versatile (width wise).

Just when I was warming up to you.
May all your teeth fall out, save one -
so you can still have a toothache.

* you suck *

[Derek Cohen]

Just when I was warming up to you.
May all your teeth fall out, save one -
so you can still have a toothache.

:D:D:D


A few years ago I bought a LN 4 1/2 at a hand tool event. I love it and use it for my present small scale work of boxes, edge jointing and flattening relatively small panels. It is heavy at 5 1/2 pounds. I'm thinking I should have gotten the #4 cast iron. At 4 pounds it sounds more manageable.
I was going to go to the Oct. 10-11 tool event here to try it, but will not be able to attend. Has anyone personally addressed this question? (I recall the woman demonstrator expressing her preference for the 4 1/2 over the 4. I probably outweighed her by 50 + pounds. So much for equating strength and size).

Hi Bruce

As David mentioned, a heavy plane is very helpful on very hard woods. If you want a really heavy smoother, you try my Marcou S15, which weighs in at 7 lbs 11 oz! There is nothing ... nothing that this plane cannot smooth!

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Philip3.jpg

By contrast a Bronze LN 4 1/2 Anniversary is not that heavy. I use both, but not that often. Frankly, they are a bit much, although they work very well. They will come out when needed for large panels.

I like heavy, but in small planes ... the LN #3 (55 degree frog) is my preferred LN. It has heft in a small package (for those who find the handle small, I have a #4 handle on mine) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Lie%20Nielsen/LN2.jpg

If you prefer lighter planes, which feel nimble and tend to offer more feedback, the LV BU planes are excellent. Have you tried one?

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LV%20planes/Small%20BU%20Smoother/BUand3-1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bruce Mack]

Derek, I've looked at your review of the Marcou and at the maker's website with admiration. His planes are beauties.
I have a LV low angle smoother with both 25 and 38 degree blades. It had been my go-to plane for most tasks. With your suggestion of waxing the bed of the blade support, I can adjust it without releasing the lever cap and have better control of the shaving. I think I have buyer's itch, for in truth my tools are better at woodworking than I. Thank you.

[Jim Koepke]

in truth my tools are better at woodworking than I.

Mine have more experience. There aren't many tools in my shop who haven't been at it longer than me.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

"...for in truth my tools are better at woodworking than I"

That's great. Noted for future plagarism.

[Mike Allen1010]

If the wood you are planing is easily plane able then wider is better. The harder the wood and the more problematic the narrower is better. The first plane I made (ta dahhhhh a double iron) I made to take the LN 4-1/2 blade and chip breaker. She works well but is a handful when the wood is hard.

What I am saying , in short , is GO FOR THE NARROWER PLANE YOU MIGHT LIKE IT. I do.

+1 to what Winton said

[Frederick Skelly]

I've grabbed almost every plane between a #2 and a #8.

As Mr. Weaver has stated, it's all personal preference. I'm sure what I use my #8's for, some people would have a heart attack about. I'm sure what I use my #2 for, some people would tell me is a completely stupid use.

My LN #4 1/2 is my final go-to smoothing plane because it's at 50* pitch, heavy, and wide. I appreciate it's heft and the thinner-than-paper shavings it takes and the tear-out it eliminates. However, my 604, 603 and #2 are all used for only spot smoothing; I take a straight-edge, pull it along a board, and look for high spots. Depending on size of high spot, I pick the size of smoother that best handles it.

Tonight I used all 3 - my #3 took the first shot at smoothing, my #2 worked out a low spot that the #3 couldnt and I finished with my #4. I dont know if thats normal or sensible, but it works for my current skill level -I take a slightly thicker cut with the #3 and reserve the #4 for that very fine (0.002) final smoothing. I tried a 4 1/2 recently and found it too heavy for my taste. (I really wanted to like that tool - Ive heard so many good things about 'em.) But I use the #3 and #4 a lot.

[Winton Applegate]

Just when I get the prize for sucketude . . .
Derek comes along and blasts me off the map.

I won't ever catch up there.
+ 1 on the LV BU
I sure wish I had thought to get a # 4 handle for my #3.
Back then I was a wide eyed newbie, I had no idea how to make a decent handle (still don't).
You know . . . thinking back I may have looked at that and decided the stock # 4 handle would over lap into the blade.
Or did I just dream that up just now ?

Derek,
Did you have to modify the larger handle to get it to work out ?

PS: Oooohhh . . . the high angle frog . . . there was no HAF when I had my #3 . . that came years later.

[Frederick Skelly]

Just when I get the prize for sucketude . . .
Derek comes along and blasts me off the map.

Naaah, you still get one of the sucketude prizes for that magnificent workworkbench, Win. Nobody can take that from ya. (Ok, maybe if someone sells their house, buys a bunch of ebony and builds a bench from it. ;) ) Your bench is nicer than some (most?) of my living room furniture!

Loved the Marcou, Derek!

Fred