Recommendations for extracting to air.

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hiya all,

I have a Laser pro X252 that I currently use with a BOFA Oracle. I cut MDF pretty much exclusively and I'm going through pre filters every few weeks.

I have the option of extracting to air but I have had no success in finding a suitable extractor. I brought an Axminster AWDE 5002 and the push and pull seemed good but the unit isn't air tight and soon my workshop is full of fumes. I also tried an extractor recommended by HPC lasers here in the UK but the draw was very low and didn't even pull all the smoke from the cabinet and smoke was escaping from the air vents on the laser.

Does anyone have recommendations for an extractor that's quiet, mdf fume proof and preferably under £250.00

If not as an alternative is there an extractor that either has cheap or long lasting filters??

Many thanks,

Nige

[Kevin Gregerson]

Hiya all,

I have a Laser pro X252 that I currently use with a BOFA Oracle. I cut MDF pretty much exclusively and I'm going through pre filters every few weeks.

I have the option of extracting to air but I have had no success in finding a suitable extractor. I brought an Axminster AWDE 5002 and the push and pull seemed good but the unit isn't air tight and soon my workshop is full of fumes. I also tried an extractor recommended by HPC lasers here in the UK but the draw was very low and didn't even pull all the smoke from the cabinet and smoke was escaping from the air vents on the laser.

Does anyone have recommendations for an extractor that's quiet, mdf fume proof and preferably under £250.00

If not as an alternative is there an extractor that either has cheap or long lasting filters??

Many thanks,

Nige


You might want to consider getting a inline filter box from BOFA. Model number ILF 300 I think and run 95% bag servapak filters which can be found from Purlator for a lot less than BOFA pricing. Should lengthen the life of your pre filters on that oracle by quite a bit and the bag filters can be had for less than 45 bucks a filter.

-Kevin

[Dave Sheldrake]

The AWDE 5002 will suck a golf ball through a garden hose suggesting you aren't getting enough input air. Seal the edges of the face plate on the unit with silicon sealer and that machine will perform very well (I run them on open bed lasers)

cheers

Dave

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hi,

Thanks for the quick responses! I'll look into those options thanks.

Nige

[Kevin Gregerson]

You might want to consider getting a inline filter box from BOFA. Model number ILF 300 I think and run 95% bag servapak filters which can be found from Purlator for a lot less than BOFA pricing. Should lengthen the life of your pre filters on that oracle by quite a bit and the bag filters can be had for less than 45 bucks a filter.

-Kevin


Here is the link to the Inline filter from BOFA

http://www.bofa.co.uk/cm/dynamic/large/23012014102642.pdf

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hiya,

I looked into the BOFA units, they are quite expensive and the filter bags themselves are £100.00 ($160) each so I looks like going from 2 expensive filters to 3, not sure how long the inline filter would last? Are there any more makes of inline filter? I couldn't find any.

Thanks,

Nigel.

www.timelineminiatures.co.uk

[Dave Sheldrake]

Nature of the beast Nige, anything that filters (traps) MDF will clog up quickly

cheers

Dave

[Kevin Gregerson]

Hiya,

I looked into the BOFA units, they are quite expensive and the filter bags themselves are £100.00 ($160) each so I looks like going from 2 expensive filters to 3, not sure how long the inline filter would last? Are there any more makes of inline filter? I couldn't find any.

Thanks,

Nigel.

www.timelineminiatures.co.uk (http://www.timelineminiatures.co.uk)


Get the aftermarket bag filters from AirRaid or Purlator. It's basically the same thing at 1/3 the price. The BOFA fume extractors have patented filters in them. But the inline ones aren't all that unique as the Aftermarket provides you equivalents. They are simply 24x12x22 nominal size.

http://www.globalindustrial.com/g/hvac/filters/air-filters-purolator/purolator-serva-pak-s-synthetic-bag-filters

The above is just one place you can get them. This is what I sell my customers instead of the BOFA filters.

[Keith Colson]

"anything that filters (traps) MDF will clog up quickly"

Dave, you are right. I was thinking to add a bypass for my outside filter. Maybe servo or cable control. I could engage the filter for the nasty stuff and disengage the filter for mdf, plywood and acrylic etc

Cheers
Keith

[Dave Sheldrake]

That will work Keith without spending BUCKS$$$$ on electrostatic and mist filters, I run mine through the Mitsu filter system and that removes all the sticky sludge but the filtration unit is bigger than most small rooms (it's intended for use on the metal cutting machines) as Yet I haven't found a sensible priced filter unit that has both long life AND efficiency when working with MDF :(

cheers

Dave

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hi

Thanks all.

Dave - I took a look at my axminster unit today and it does 'leak' quite a bit. The actual housing of the centrifugal fan seems fine but if you put your hands over the ally heat sink of the motor there is a tremendous amount of air blowing. It's hard to see where the air is coming from. I sealed the black flange that joins the motor to the main body and I'll give it a try tomorrow.

Thanks

Nige.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hi Nige, there is a fan mounted on the end of the motor that pulls air over the heatsink, a draft there is quite normal (and required for cooling)

Remember for every cubic foot of air you pull out the same has to be getting in to the cabinet or you have no flow - ergo no extraction.

cheers

Dave

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hiya dave,

Yes, I did notice that and it does pull in a fair amount! I don't think the airflow I noticed was anything to do with this as it was it defiantly seemed to flowing away from the unit. I'll check gain tomorrow as the sealant I used should be dry.

I'm also going to try and use my Bofa unit as an extractor by taking the filters out and fitting an adapted plate on the back to take the out hose. I'm hoping I can seal the unit (doors etc), with gafa tape!

Thanks,

Nige.

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hiya,

Well, I tried using the BOFA to extract to air but I couldn't completely seal the unit and it leaked quite a bit of fume into the workshop.

I set up my AWDE 5002 again but it didn't pull any smoke from out of the laser cabinet - this has always happened when I use it. The 5002 is placed nearer the outdoor vent point than the laser so its pulling more than it's pushing. There are no kinks are anything in the flexible hose that I use so I don't understand why it under performs so dramatically?

I got an extraction company in today to quote for an extractor but they said they can't quote until they know the pressure that generated for the recommended air flow. I'm sure Graphitype (here in the UK), quote me something like 800m3 hr for the flow but I don't know anything about the pressure - any one have any ideas?

Thanks again,

Nigel.

[Kevin Gregerson]

Hiya,

Well, I tried using the BOFA to extract to air but I couldn't completely seal the unit and it leaked quite a bit of fume into the workshop.

I set up my AWDE 5002 again but it didn't pull any smoke from out of the laser cabinet - this has always happened when I use it. The 5002 is placed nearer the outdoor vent point than the laser so its pulling more than it's pushing. There are no kinks are anything in the flexible hose that I use so I don't understand why it under performs so dramatically?

I got an extraction company in today to quote for an extractor but they said they can't quote until they know the pressure that generated for the recommended air flow. I'm sure Graphitype (here in the UK), quote me something like 800m3 hr for the flow but I don't know anything about the pressure - any one have any ideas?

Thanks again,

Nigel.




Typical Laser setup requires 6 inches of Static pressure. To be on the safe side this is the number I would use 500 CFM @ 6 in static pressure (850 m3/hr at 1.5 kPa) and tell them this is the minimum and not to use an expansion valve. Also you might want to add in blast gates if you ever decide to use lighter materials they don't cost much for the install and they work well.

I'm surprised your Laser pro guy didn't help you out with this problem.

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hiya Kevin,

Thanks for the info. The laser pro distributers I got the unit from don't recommend their clients extracting to air and only sell BOFA units as an extraction solution.

Thanks,

Nige.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Understandable Nige, we have the Clean Air Act here making atmospheric extraction potentially "troublesome" depending on location.

Sounds like the AK fan may be faulty, they normally suck like a jet intake (I use them on two big open bed lasers) not quite sure what's going on with that.

cheers

Dave

[Kevin Gregerson]

Hiya,

Well, I tried using the BOFA to extract to air but I couldn't completely seal the unit and it leaked quite a bit of fume into the workshop.

I set up my AWDE 5002 again but it didn't pull any smoke from out of the laser cabinet - this has always happened when I use it. The 5002 is placed nearer the outdoor vent point than the laser so its pulling more than it's pushing. There are no kinks are anything in the flexible hose that I use so I don't understand why it under performs so dramatically?

I got an extraction company in today to quote for an extractor but they said they can't quote until they know the pressure that generated for the recommended air flow. I'm sure Graphitype (here in the UK), quote me something like 800m3 hr for the flow but I don't know anything about the pressure - any one have any ideas?

Thanks again,

Nigel.




Based on the size of your machine, I'd say a healthy number would be 500 CFM @ 6 in static pressure (850 m3/hr at 1.5 kPa)

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hiya Kevin,

I quoted those specs to my 'expert' and he said they were quite hight and the only extractor he could find would have to be built specially in Germany and shipped over to the UK!!!!

I can't believe that there isn't an off the shelf solution to this issue, there must be quite a few laser companies extracting to air.

I'm getting pretty desperate, I have a trade show booked for the following weekend and no stock :(

Thanks

Nige.

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hi again!

I just revived the full quote for an extractor and a little bit of ducting and its coming out at £2000.00!! The extractor quoted is an Econ Kemper M series?

I also got a quote on an Sodeca CMA 528 2M 1, with 1250 m3/r but at 82 db i think it will be too noisy for my small workshop.

Dave - i'm still keen on getting the axminster to work. When i run it without it being plumbed in it does seem to pull in quite a bit of air and it certainly pushes it out. The guy I had in was talking about the right pressure in the 'system', could i be doing something wrong in the set up?? Would it help to have to unit as close to the laser out port as possible??

Thanks

Nige.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hey Nige, my gut feeling is enough air isn't getting in to the cabinet, the AX unit is plenty powerful for sure.

You can put them close but keep the ducting as short as possible (long duct sucks flow) and keep bends as slow as possible 130 degrees if possible, smooth tube sure helps compared to the ribbed wall stuff.

82dBa is above factory limits for noise, you may have neighbour problems with that :(

cheers

Dave

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hi Dave,

Thanks , when you say not enough air is getting into the cabinet I'm not sure what you mean?

Also, i'm using ducting I got from B&Q, its very flimsy and from the axminster to the laser outlet it does collapse a little, would it be better to have rigid ducting. Sorry for all the questions!

Thanks,

Nige.

[Kevin Gregerson]

Hiya Kevin,

I quoted those specs to my 'expert' and he said they were quite hight and the only extractor he could find would have to be built specially in Germany and shipped over to the UK!!!!

I can't believe that there isn't an off the shelf solution to this issue, there must be quite a few laser companies extracting to air.

I'm getting pretty desperate, I have a trade show booked for the following weekend and no stock :(

Thanks

Nige.

No way, see this below.

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/DC250SEMB.html


Easy solution and cheap enough. At most you pay shipping overseas.

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks, I will try and find a UK equivelent as I'm in a bit of a hurry.

Thank you,

Nige.

[Dave Sheldrake]

The fact it's collapsing suggests you have a negative pressure situation, hard wall tube tends to be much much more efficient in most cases if a little more awkward to move about.

What it comes down to is the amount of air being sucked into the cabinet, if effect if you have a 6 inch exit hole at the back then the area of any vents in the machine must be the same as the 6 inch exit, even a tiny amount of negative pressure will mess up the flow characteristics of the entire set up and cause smoke to build up. The fact the tube is partially collapsing suggests there is not enough air getting into the cabinet to replace the air being sucked out.

Easy way to test this,

Lift the door of the machine leaving about an inch gap, process a bit of wood and see if the airflow is any better (the gap will allow more air in) I think it's Bill on here is an HVAC specialist and may have some exact numbers for you.

If you get really stuck and want to talk through a solution my number is 07429149371 (Mike / mods etc, hope it's ok to post this as I'm not trying to sell Nige anything just help him out as I'm in the same country)

cheers

Dave

[Kevin Gregerson]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks, I will try and find a UK equivelent as I'm in a bit of a hurry.

Thank you,

Nige.

Look at the Grainger catalog they have a few there you can order. Costs a little more but they have them.

[Bill George]

Static pressure is the resistance to air flow in a duct system. CFM is Cubic Feet per Minute of air being moved. All you really care about is the CFM and the side effect FPM (feet per minute or velocity) . Whatever air is being removed from your cabinet has to be let in, usually slots or openings placed in the front or side. Just purchase a fan capable of the 500 CFM needed and someone said 6 inches of static pressure which sounds like a reasonable number. If the intake duct is collapsing then either go to a hard pipe or reduce the fan speed.

Sounds like your "experts" really don't know about air flow or fans.

The Penn State link seems to be overkill but if it works.... It would be nice to have a variable speed motor so you could just dial in the CFM you need.

Heck if you need it ASAP hook up a large shop Vac (duct tape and reducer) and vent the blowing side outside as a temp solution.

[Graham Taylor]

Hey Nige, my gut feeling is enough air isn't getting in to the cabinet, the AX unit is plenty powerful for sure.

You can put them close but keep the ducting as short as possible (long duct sucks flow) and keep bends as slow as possible 130 degrees if possible, smooth tube sure helps compared to the ribbed wall stuff.

cheers

Dave

Is there a max duct length when venting to outside?

The location I had in mind for the Speedy 300 in my new unit may not be suitable so I was wondering if I could place the extractor fan near the wall (the laser would be as close to the wall as practical but still allowing access to the rear) put a hole through the wall and then a 90 degree bend just outside and then extend the rigid (was thinking of drain pipe) pipe to the back of the unit.

Do you think this would be efficient and a workable solution?

hopefully I have explained it well enough that you understand what I mean

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hi Graham,

It goes on total duct length that is connected to both sides of the blower. The position of the blower relative to the machine helps but not as much as having a short duct does.

cheers

Dave

[Bill George]

Straight pipe adds little to the static pressure loss in a system. Flex pipe is not the best but if kept reasonably straight with long gentle curves is ok but not as good as hard pipe. A 90 degree elbow adds 20 ft (EL or equivalent length of pipe) Source ACCA Manual D.

They do make inexpensive, less than $200 VFD that can use a single phase 230 volt input and it generates three phase variable frequency output that drive a small 1 or 2 Hp 3 phase motor. That would give you control over the fan speed/CFM for just about any situation.
Example on Ebay> HITACHI NES1-015SB, 2 HP, 230 VAC, 1 PHASE INPUT, VFD, W/ OPERATOR Listed at $195 with Free Shipping.

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hiya All,

New ducting in place (no sharp bends!), and my axminster whirling away sucking small animals and any other passing objects through the grating on the front of my laser!!

Thanks to all who helped, especially Dave who went above and beyond!

Regards,

Nige.

[Graham Taylor]

Nigel,

What ducting did you settle on in the end as I am starting to plan my set up.

Do you ave any pics as you seem very proud of your new setup :D



Hiya All,

New ducting in place (no sharp bends!), and my axminster whirling away sucking small animals and any other passing objects through the grating on the front of my laser!!

Thanks to all who helped, especially Dave who went above and beyond!

Regards,

Nige.

[Nigel Gilbert]

Hiya,

I can take some pics Monday as I'm back from my workshop atm. It's not a pretty set up but it works!! I used this type of ducting:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/clear-medium-weight-pvc-extraction-hose

Hope that helps,

Nige.

[Graham Taylor]

Nice one - with the added advantage of seeing which small animals have been sucked through so maybe it will be a new type of reality show.

Thanks mate

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hiya All,

New ducting in place (no sharp bends!), and my axminster whirling away sucking small animals and any other passing objects through the grating on the front of my laser!!

Thanks to all who helped, especially Dave who went above and beyond!

Regards,

Nige.


Your most welcome Nige, just make sure you count visitors in and out...if any are missing check the pipes ;)

[Michael Reilly]

I wouldn't use a filter system unless you're doing metal marking or something else fairly clean. You want an exhaust fan sized appropriate to your laser. Something that looks like this should work for your machine, just remove the bag and vent outside. You can use silicone or foil tape to seal the fan assembly and all hoses.