Large BS users: How do you stabilize the saw?

[Susumu Mori]

Hi all,

I have a question for users of >400lb bandsaws.
Bandsaws are top heavy. No question about it. When the huge wheels turn, some vibration is inevitable.
I wonder if you do anything special to anchor the saw to the floor to minimize the vibration.
My 20-inch saw has two rubber feet and two wheels. It is reasonably stable but if I push the top part of the saw, it wobbles. I can't figure out what exactly gives the room for the wobble but I suspect the shaft of the wheels is the culprit because it is not secured to the body in any way.

So, I guess my question is, if any of you use wood, rubber, or any materials underneath the saw to dampen the vibration successfully. My saw pass the nickel test, so it's not that the saw is suffering from excessive vibration but, of course, the less is the better, when it comes to noise and vibration. I'm asking to users of large saws because my 14-inch saw doesn't have noise and vibration to talk about.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

thanks,

[jack forsberg]

400lbs is very light for a large saw!!!!!! my 16" bursgreen is 900lbs and the wadkin DR is 1800lbs. band saws are bottom heavy with the motor and table down low not top heavy IMO. Vibration is caused by unbalanced wheels and untrue rubber tires . and some saw like my wadkin DR run high speed at 7800 sfpm (SURFACE FEET PER MINUTE)both mine can cut with coins balanced on the table if the bearings are good in the machine and motor, and pulleys and belts are tuned and of good quality / the wheels should be dynamically balanced (I use motorcycle tires wights) and the rubber trued concentric by milling in a number of way with a crown on the tire for the blade to track well. of all the 5 band saws over 400 lbs in the shop this is what i do to tune them.

my 30"wadkin tuned up that is running at 2 times the speed of most saws but not all


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYVqoiWFeBg&list=UUI6jpIs2zjN9DmVvK2ZAWXA

[Matt Day]

My 20" Powermatic weighs 1000# and is on a mobile base, and I pass the nickel test easily simply because of the weight.

You might have something else going on as Jack said.

[Myk Rian]

I deleted my original response after re-reading your question.
Is it possible the rubber feet are the culprit?

[Susumu Mori]

Jack, I'm totally impressed.
OK, this is what a well-tuned (and heavy) BS can do. There seems a room for improvement in my BS.
With just the motor, my BS is supremely quiet and no vibration.
If I connect the bottom wheel, the sound level goes up considerably and I can feel slight vibration. I think the noise is mainly from the multi-V groove belt and there is nothing I can do (can't I?). For the vibration, I'll try the balancing with tire weights. I read an article about how to find a heavy side of a wheel by observing the position where a free wheel stops. Is it how you do the balancing?

[Rod Sheridan]

I suspect that unless you're using rigid wheels like steel wheels, the wheels and the rubber feet are compressing when you push on the saw, which causes it to wobble.

Now, that has nothing to do with wobbling when running, if it's doing that it's an out of balance issue agravated by the compressible wheels/feet.

Regards, Rod.

[Myk Rian]

I read an article about how to find a heavy side of a wheel by observing the position where a free wheel stops. Is it how you do the balancing?
Yes. I used paper clips opposite the heavy side to balance a wheel.

297169

[Mikail Khan]

Before you balance use a straight edge to ensure that the pulleys are aligned reasonably well.

MK

[Susumu Mori]

I see. That makes sense, Rod.
It is not really wobbling during the saw is running but I thought the small amount of the vibration was caused by the feet.
So, I should shoot for the source of the vibration before thinking about the feet.

[Susumu Mori]

This is a great idea, Myk.

[Edward Oleen]

... and some saw like my wadkin DR run high speed at 7800 sfpm (SURFACE FEET PER MINUTE)
my 30"wadkin tuned up that is running at 2 times the speed of most saws but not all

Why do I doubt that you mean 7800 SFPM????? I mean, does the saw some how know that you just swapped your1/2" blade for a 1" blade, and, to maintain the same SWFP, cut the rpms in half to maintain the same SFPM???

I don't think so...

I think you might mean that the drive wheel turns at 7800 RPM, which would be twice a motor speed of 3400 RPM. Remember: the surface area (as in SFPM) is the product of the width times the length, and with band saw blades the width varies - in my case, with the 14" DeWalt, my "smallest" blade is 1/8", and my "biggest" is 3/4", which is a 6:1 SFPM difference...

[Keith Weber]

Edward,

Wow! I think that you're a little confused, mate! SFPM has nothing to do with surface area. It's got everything to do with the linear feet that the blade is traveling in a minute. It doesn't make a difference if you're using a 1/2" blade, or a 1" blade. SFPM is used to give the speed of the outside of a wheel. It is a more meaningful measure than RPM for things that cut or grind on the outside of a wheel. A 4" diameter grinding wheel will have half the SFPM of an 8" diameter grinding wheel for a given RPM. On a bandsaw, the wheels are a fixed diameter, so the SFPM will only change if you change the RPMs of the wheels (via either a faster motor, or a larger motor pulley.

Keith

[Max Neu]

297212My 24" Laguna was vibrating quite a bit,but I noticed if I used the mobile dolly and took the weight off the end,the vibration went away.So I bought these pads http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002I9RVIA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ,it now runs very smoothly.

[Myk Rian]

Edward. Everything you said is wrong. This is blade speed, not surface area.

[Prashun Patel]

I built a mobile base for my 19" saw. The 2x3 tube steel base is wider than the base and serves as a (however mild) outrigger.

I have seen also that some have lanyards from the top of the saw to the ceiling. I suppose for a strictly stationary saw, that would be good. I prefer the mobility - even at the expense of a slightly increased footprint.

[Chuck Saunders]

And here I was questioning what 7800 sfpm was an appropriate cutting speed for. I don't think I have seen anything recommended much more than ~3000 sfpm. Granted Edwards' 7800 rpm 36" (I'm assuming the Wadkin is a 36" saw) wheel speed gives a numbing 73,000 sfpm. That's probably a bit high.

[glenn bradley]

My 17" saw is on a mobile base for no reason I can think of since I never move it. I did however make sure the saw is setting level to mother earth and have no vibration problems. Being a smaller saw and on a base with at least two wheels touching the floor it definitely moves if I push on the upper housing. It does not move when resawing 12" material and I can slice my own veneers no problem. Chase down the vibration (I got great improvement with link belts [I happen to have some around] but, any quality belt would probably do as much). Everything is well aligned during setup and the saw seems happy.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I use a 36" Oliver, it weighs a lot and sits on a very uneven concrete floor. As others said before, you might have another problem going on, address that first, but I did have to shim my machine to get it to set properly. I just used door shims to get all four points of contact carrying load.

[David Kumm]

I slowly spin the wheels and mark them to see if they stop in a consistent spot. Then add a little weight until they stop in random positions. That gets me close. Then I hook everything up and set a dial indicator on a machine with wheels and put it next to the bandsaw. The tip rests on the edge of the table so I can measure the vibration when running and then experiment some more with weights. My Olivers run at 6700 fpm. Tannys at 8400 so they need to be in balance. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

I have a 20" meber, bought it 10 years old but never used , never even spin a blade. All I've ever done is turn it on, smooth as can be, and with soft starting 220v motor it's noticeably smoother at start up than the 14" it replaced, but thAt was pretty smooth to. I out it on Great Lakes locking swivel casters, it's in the 500# range and I can roll it around with two fingers, for lite cuts I don't bother locking the wheels, just chock them, for resaw I lower the rubber posts, it's like it's glued to the floor. If you are getting shaking and vibration, address that first. My wheels came balanced, your may need work as described above. If the mobility system is not stable address that issue as required. It should be very smooth when operating. What is the brand?

[Susumu Mori]

Thank you all.
This discussion gets very interesting and I want to continue.

Peter, mine is Felder FB510. I want to stress that this saw has been working quite well, delivering all the functions as I expected including thin veneers up to 10 inches (haven't tried wider boards). So, I think my questions should be in the category of "fine tuning." As I mentioned, it passed a nickel test but still nowhere close to what Jack showed. Granted that his saw is a behemoth compared to my 550lb saw, but I want to continue my quest for less vibration and less noise.

My situation seems very similar to what Glenn said; if I push the top of the saw, I can shake it without much force. Also, by adding moving parts one-by-one, the biggest sound source seems the v-belt. I didn't know that there are high-quality and low-quality v-belts. If anybody knows sources of high-quality silent v-belts, I would definitely try it. Any information would be much appreciated. Also, as Mikail said, I should check the pulley-wheel alignment. I hope I can figure out how to do it.

Max, your situation also seems similar to mine. I would try this anti-vibration pads. You are using only for the two corners and the other two corners in the wheel-side are not padded?

In any case, one thing I clearly need to do is to check the wheel balance.

I'll keep you updated.

[Erik Loza]

Just my thoughts...

1.) You cannot really compare the vibration level of a solid cast iron saw to a modern (hollow chassis) unit, regardless of how much you spend, how big it is, or what brand it is. Hollow chassis machines generate their own harmonic. This is exaggerated by the contemporary designs that put a lot of blade length between the flyweels. That's not usually a problem but if someone is expecting their modern bandsaw to have "no vibration", they will probably be disappointed.

2.) As Jack and others said, get rid of the rubber feet. They may not be the cause of the issue but they certainly could contribute to it. I have watched 100% normal bandsaws practically walk across an uneven concrete floor because they were not leveled correctly. You always want as much steel or other non-compliant material on the ground with a vertical bandsaw.

3.) I would just try a new V-belt. Or even one of the link-type belts if they make one for your pulley width.

Best of luck with it.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Susumu Mori]

Thank Erik,

Many good points. As for the V-belt, do you have any suggestions for the source of high-quality belts?

[John Sanford]

With regards to the V-belts, make sure that the pulleys and belt are clean. It's not unheard of for a belt to have "boogers" of rubber left from production, and similar grunge can be on the pulleys. Either will introduce vibration, and both are simple to resolve.

[Jim Becker]

My MM16 (older version circa 2004) is solid as a rock...I'd need my whole weight to make it "rock". That said, the mobility wheels do not touch the floor when it's stationary...you need the base to be solid on the floor in some way. A quick solution is a piece of 3/4" plywood that lifts everything just enough to insure nothing that isn't solid is ever engaged with the floor except when moving the machine.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thank Erik,

Many good points. As for the V-belt, do you have any suggestions for the source of high-quality belts?

Is it a V belt or a poly rib type?

Regards, Rod.

[Mike Wilkins]

A machine sitting on an unlevel floor could possibly cause it to rock to and fro. As other have stated, check for wheel balance and alignment, fresh (not dry rotted) belts and tires, and pulley alignment.
You can get machine feet/pads to mount the machine on and that may help any vibes (anti-vibration pads).

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Rod,

It is about a half-inch wide with 4-5 grooves along the belt. Do you call it a poly rib?
I don't think it causes vibration but sure it generates a lot of noise.

[Erik Loza]

Susumu, the belt should have the length, width, etc. printed on it. Can you spin the wheel and read it?

Regarding belts, folks would be surprised how many brand-new "bad ones" I have run across.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Max Neu]

Susumu,
I have put pads on all corners,but it didn't make any difference on my machine,because the problem was all coming from the right side.Sometimes I put the wheel side up on 3/4" plywood just to level it,since the right side is lifted from the pads,but most of the time I don't even bother doing that,truthfully,I can't tell a difference one way or the other when I am running it.If my machine was staionary,or very seldom moved,I may have used a different setup.But since it gets moved fairly often because of where it sits (we have to move it to run long pieces through the widebelt sander,or hauling in alot of sheet goods),it's important that it can be moved quickly and easily without hassle.I will say,I was quite surprised at how well those pads worked!

[Pat Barry]

You cannot really compare the vibration level of a solid cast iron saw to a modern (hollow chassis) unit, regardless of how much you spend, how big it is, or what brand it is. Hollow chassis machines generate their own harmonic. This is exaggerated by the contemporary designs that put a lot of blade length between the flyweels. That's not usually a problem but if someone is expecting their modern bandsaw to have "no vibration", they will probably be disappointed.
Erik, Offhand I find this to be unacceptable so I must misunderstand what you are trying to say. I know everything has a resonant frequency. What would a modern bandsaw manufacturer actually target for the resonant frequency?

[Erik Loza]

Erik, Offhand I find this to be unacceptable so I must misunderstand what you are trying to say. I know everything has a resonant frequency. What would a modern bandsaw manufacturer actually target for the resonant frequency?

Pat, they wouldn't. I can 100% guarantee that no modern BS mfr. considers "resonant frequency" during any aspect of the design process. "Vibration level" and "the nickel test" are criteria that we (hobby woodworkers) invented and use to judge machines by, not anything mfrs. take into consideration. Now, that being said, a harmonic does not mean that machine will give you a poor cut or that the machine won't perform not the way you want. At least not on an Euro-built machine. It just means that you cannot expect a hollow-chassis'ed machine (bandsaw or otherwise) to run as smoothly as a giant cast iron machine. Apples to oranges. I hope this makes sense.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Mikail Khan]

Guide to pulley alignment with a straight edge can be found here:


http://www.flowcontrolnetwork.com/articles/the-importance-of-shaft-alignment

I have never checked alignment on any of my machines.

Here is a source of v belts with good reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-T21992-V-Belt-2-Inch-4-Foot/dp/B001BQDS8I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411578269&sr=8-1&keywords=link+belt

These can be kept as a spare for any v belt driven woodworking machine.

The movement of the saw when you push it may be normal. If it cuts well I would forget about it and spent that effort on making sawdust.

MK

[Rod Sheridan]

Susumu, the belt should have the length, width, etc. printed on it. Can you spin the wheel and read it?

Regarding belts, folks would be surprised how many brand-new "bad ones" I have run across.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Hi Erik, the OP has a poly rib flat belt.

Have you experienced any issues with them?

regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Rod,

It is about a half-inch wide with 4-5 grooves along the belt. Do you call it a poly rib?
I don't think it causes vibration but sure it generates a lot of noise.

Hi, the belt should be extremely quiet in use.

Is it properly tensioned?

Regards, Rod.

P.S. Belt problems are normally caused by cheap, or old V belts, not normally an issue with poly rib belts...........Rod.

[Susumu Mori]

Make sense to me. The hollow chassis of the spine and arms seem good resonators.
I can't imagine both my 14 and 20-inch can achieve what Jack showed. It is completely another league.
I still want to chase the best I can achieve with my saw, though.

[Susumu Mori]

Thanks Mikail,

I may have some misalignment issue because I can see the side of the belt is worn.

>The movement of the saw when you push it may be normal. If it cuts well I would forget about it and spent that effort on making sawdust.

Hahaha, you are right. I'm too obsessed. I guess I just like to poke around a new toy.

[Erik Loza]

Hi Erik, the OP has a poly rib flat belt.

Have you experienced any issues with them?

regards, Rod.

Ah, must've missed that. No, never had a bad Poly-V, just the regular V's.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Jim Matthews]

I'm late to this party.

I put a couple shop made wedges under the low side of
my MM20. They're oak, and not what I would call compressible.

My saw may not be so large as Jack's, but I can balance a half-dollar on edge
when the blade is running.

Modern saws are pretty stable, right out of the box.

I would suggest you start with simple, inexpensive fixes.

If you must use rubber pads, use something dense like truck tire treads.

[Bruce Page]

I put my MM16 into a Delta mobile base. I made spacers to create a tight fit between the saw’s base and the inside of the MB. I match drilled through the MB and saw base and bolter the two together. The MB gives the MM a larger footprint that is rock solid.
Details here: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?10507-I-ve-gone-Mobile!