Laser for Marquetry?

[Stephen Musial]

Hi,

A little background - I do a mix of aquatics CAD design, marquetry, rehab work and building furniture. Due to a recent accident (that I can't give any specifics on due to pending litigation) I can't do any actual work right now and CAD time is limited because my hand will ache for hours afterwards. Hopefully in time, the majority of it will resolve itself and I'll be back to being a productive member of society.

At some point in time there's going to be a settlement and I'd like to get something that will allow me to do the sort of marquetry patterns I've designed but couldn't cut out with a knife (I have yet to try packet cutting on the scroll saw) so I'm looking at either a CNC with a Donek drag knife or a laser.

If I go the laser route, can I just tape the veneer to the table, and let it go to town or do I need some sort of vacuum table to hold the veneer in place?
What am I looking at as far as getting into a laser? I don't want to build my own stuff - something that I unpack, hook up, translate my AutoCAD drawings and then start cutting. Nothing against Chinese stuff, but if I drop a wad of cash, I want to be sure that there's support and parts if/when needed.

Does anyone use their laser for cutting veneer and if so are you happy with the route you chose? If you have both CNC and laser, would you recommend one over the other? I have a ton of veneer - all cut and flitched, none paper backed.

Size wise, I don't see myself needing anything bigger than 18" x 24" or 36" (depending on what size the workable area is) Something bigger than a tabloid sheet of paper but smaller than a half sheet of plywood.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

[Dan Hintz]

Considering the thinness of veneer, I would highly suggest a laser vs. a CNC. A vacuum table will solve problems that you didn't know you would have... such as veneer that doesn't lie perfectly flat.

[John Noell]

The Epilogs come with a tablet which has a lot of holes in it, and the exhaust gets pulled fro under the table - so while I would not call it a vacuum table, it does put flexible materials somewhat flat. Some(!) softer veneers will lay flat like that.

[Mike Null]

You'll probably need to buy CorelDraw to convert your autocad drawings. You probably won't need a vacuum table but the veneer will have to be flat and in focus for cutting. You may be able to use weights or tape though most of what I've cut has been flat enough without using any clamps or presses, etc.

I believe the laser will do a superior job to any other method of cutting. I do cut from the back. I call the attached inlay but I used 1/64" veneer.



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[Dave Sheldrake]

Save as AutoCAD 2000 DXF format and you have cross platform ability for just about any laser on the planet from tiny Chinese K40's up to industrial multi million $$$ death rays :)

cheers

Dave

[Jeff Belany]

I agree that cutting veneer with the laser works great! My question to anyone doing Marquetry is this -- do you use your laser to route the recess also? My experience is that the bottom of the recess is not very smooth and if you are using very thin veneer it doesn't lay in the routed area too well. With thicker veneer you can afford to let it sit 'proud' and sand it level. Just curious what others experiences are with this.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin

[John Noell]

Hi Jeff, that's exactly my experience. But you can get some real detail with that method that those of us with 10 thumbs cannot do otherwise.
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[Mike Null]

I do use the laser to rout the recess. The glue tends to smooth the surface but i have smoothed a rough spot or two with a chisel. Generally, the glue is adequate.

[Stephen Musial]

All of my marquetry is cut, taped together with veneer tape and then glued to a board (usually baltic birch) with a bottle jack press or vacuum press and then set into the piece or if it's a chess/cribbage/backgammon board, framed with solid wood.

So, the hopefully not $20,000 question - how much is it to get into a laser?

[Dennis Perry]

Hi Stephen I think you will love doing marquetry. I use a ULS X2-660 100 watt laser. Most of my work is a 1/4" thick glued to 1/2" ply. Using thinner wood you could get buy with much less power. good luck and have fun. Here is a piece I did for the memory of 9-11.

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[Bert Kemp]

How much getting a laser, that all depends on what brand and size and power of laser I think you mentioned 18 x 24 for what you want to do I think 60 or 80 watts will suffice, if your going to do engraving as well as cutting I wouldn't go over 80 watts.
If you go with a Chinese brand laser from Rabbit, or import one direct from china your looking at 7 to 10 range. If your need support and parts rabbit USA is the better choice for the Chinese brand lasers, there are a couple other here also that sell them but research here and elsewhere will most likely lead you back to Rabbit for the best support of the Chinese brand lasers. If you want to go with a Epilog, Trotec or Universal laser your going to get good support a good machine and spend a lot of money for it.
I'm sure other will chim in on this also this is just MHO:)

[Nicolas Silva]

Considering the thinness of veneer, I would highly suggest a laser vs. a CNC. A vacuum table will solve problems that you didn't know you would have... such as veneer that doesn't lie perfectly flat.

Ditto on that. Laser cutting it will be a breeze. Just take the beam thickness into account. i usually use 0.004" as the kerf to get inlays to fit tight.

[George M. Perzel]

Stephan;
I've done a lot of marquetry and inlays- a breeze with the laser. Try to use thicker veneers-used to be 1/28" was standard but now see 1/42" and thinner.
If you have a bandsaw its easy to cut your own thicker veneers, but there are a ton of inexpensive veneers available on ebay. Get some wood fillers to match various woods and the rest of the process is self explanatory. Also use mirror technique to inlay very minute pieces with great reaults.
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Kevin Gregerson]

Based on the thickness of what you are doing you won't need a laser with a lot of power 30-50 watts is really the most you'll need. But, you will want a laser with low banding as the higher detail stuff like what you might be doing will show up. Make sure when you put in your order to tell your sales rep that you are planning on doing flexi-brass(sets a higher expectation) and you want a tube with low banding(they can test for this in the break in stage of the laser tube).

As for holding it down, I recommend using small weights for most folks so you don't get residue on the material.

As for which machine, there are a lot of options out there. I recommend a process put together a list of vendors you are thinking of gather some materials and have each company test your application and provide you with settings and speeds required to consistently achieve the same results. Be clear with your expectations of tolerances, measurements etc. Take your time, and be diligent in waiting for each company to provide results. Normally this takes 2-3 weeks. They should all be able to provide you a detailed explanation of how they achieved result including speed and setting as well as how long it took to achieve that result. Then go through the quote process, you can either make them compete with each other and offer to buy that month if you get a price about 20-25 percent below the list price. Usually the latter works 8 times out of 10.

Good luck on your hunt,

-Kevin

[Lee DeRaud]

I agree that cutting veneer with the laser works great! My question to anyone doing Marquetry is this -- do you use your laser to route the recess also? My experience is that the bottom of the recess is not very smooth and if you are using very thin veneer it doesn't lay in the routed area too well. With thicker veneer you can afford to let it sit 'proud' and sand it level. Just curious what others experiences are with this.Well, the easiest way is to cheat: use the laser to cut one or more "background" pieces of veneer and then glue the whole thing to a suitable substrate.

[Mike Audleman]

Well, the easiest way is to cheat: use the laser to cut one or more "background" pieces of veneer and then glue the whole thing to a suitable substrate.

I don't have a vacuum table. Sometimes I wish I did but I get around it using lead weights.

I melted scrap lead using a propane torch in a cast iron ladle. I then pour the lead into the bottom of soda cans turned upside down. The cans all have a neat domed recess in the bottom that makes a perfect mold. The lead pops out easily after it cools. I pour it in the bottom of the can up to about a 1/4" deep in the center. This makes a nice round disk thats domed and easily fits under the laser air assist tube so there is no risk in the laser head hitting the lead weights. I made about two dozen of these weights in an hour so the process is pretty fast and simple. All you need for tools is a cast iron ladle (garage sales or camping store), propane torch, leather gloves and some empty soda cans.

I use them all over the material I am cutting. It spreads out the weight evenly and they can be positioned around whats being cut fairly simply. Best of all, they were free (just asked my auto guy for some old wheel weights).

[Lee DeRaud]

I don't have a vacuum table. Sometimes I wish I did but I get around it using lead weights.
...
I use them all over the material I am cutting. It spreads out the weight evenly and they can be positioned around whats being cut fairly simply. Best of all, they were free (just asked my auto guy for some old wheel weights).At some point I scored a box of twenty or so stone tile samples, 3"x3"x3/8", no idea where they came from.
They're heavy enough to hold down anything I'm comfortable calling "veneer".

[Roy Nielsen]

Ditto on that. Laser cutting it will be a breeze. Just take the beam thickness into account. i usually use 0.004" as the kerf to get inlays to fit tight.

Nicolas,

I've not yet tried inlay, but this has been a question of mine. How do you compensate for the beam size?

Thanks, Roy

[Mike Null]

First try cutting from the back. If that isn't enough enlarge the drawing very slightly.

[David Somers]

Mike....I am designing a set of Beam calipers for measuring the outside diameter of a laser beam. Think the Creek would like to carry it as a fund raiser? I am also designing steam buckets for cleaning, and smoke shifters for bbq's.

Dave
(can you tell its been a long week already?)

[Mike Null]

I'll take 3!

[John Noell]

Nicolas,

I've not yet tried inlay, but this has been a question of mine. How do you compensate for the beam size?

Thanks, Roy By trial and error. :) I did a series of tests and found that I could make the inserted pieces mate perfectly by using a standard "contour" in Corel. The contour tool makes it easy to add just the right amount for the kerf of the beam. The value depends on the type of wood and depth of the inlay.

[Roy Nielsen]

By trial and error. :) I did a series of tests and found that I could make the inserted pieces mate perfectly by using a standard "contour" in Corel. The contour tool makes it easy to add just the right amount for the kerf of the beam. The value depends on the type of wood and depth of the inlay.

Thanks, John. I may play with this a bit this weekend.

Roy

[Stephen Musial]

Thanks for all of the info! My wife is in purchasing and does RFPs and could probably get me a really good price but then she'd also know how much I spent on a laser...

Now I have to sit back, wait for the bones to heal and the legal process to do whatever it does but in the mean time, I have plenty to research and figure out.

So I can send files directly as an AutoCAD 2000 .dfx? That would be awesome, as I'm on 2010 but saving as a 2000 dfx is still a save option.

[Scott Woodson]

EPILOG's website has a section called "Sample Club". If you look under the wood tab and go down a bit you'll see a tutorial on a simple marquetry like project. This may give you some ideas of the basic steps to use with a laser engraver. I used this when I first had questions and then as other's said, trial and error will eventually give you a great starting spot. Good luck.

Scott

[Myron Benware]

As always, you only get what you pay for.

[Mike DeRegnaucourt]

Stephan;
Also use mirror technique to inlay very minute pieces with great reaults.

Hi George,

Can you further explain the mirror technique you mentioned for dealing with very tiny pieces?

Thanks

[John Noell]

I think George means the technique where you engrave out where the inlay goes, then, for the inlay, you make a mirror image of the inlay and engrave away all but the inlay. Press the two pieces face-to-face together (with glue), sand away the backside (base) of the inlay, and there you have your perfect inlay.

[Martin James]

"because my hand will ache for hours afterwards"

I recommend you ditch the mouse band get a Wacom, I get almost zero carpel tunnel with the pen tablet. I keep the pen in my hand while I type. Also My keyboard is at 45 to 90 degrees for non typing apps.
My stand is a flexible monitor stand with the wacom and a logitec unifying $20 keyboard velcroed onto the stand. I can sit or stand..


cheers M

[Raphael Weil]

Lots of threads I could bump for this question, but I'll use this one since it's the most recent.

Do you guys recommend something like Vectric 2D for auto-inlay tool paths? I found the price point for it fairly reasonable, and I'm not making terribly complex shapes (mostly polygones). For how much I'll use the software I'd like to stay away from the $1000+ things out there.

[Mike Null]

I thought you had Corel. If so you don't really need anything else.