Help me decide on Dovetail Jig

[Bob Noles]

As with every tool purchase I anticipate it seems like I wrestle to the earth's end with the frustration of decision and this one is not coming any easier. And on the same note I usually come here for advice and help in trying to arrive at what would work best for me. The membershipship of this forum is the best there is and I have the higest respect for the knowledge and friendship of you good folks.

I have one last tool I would like to add to my shop before feeling I have a fairly complete realm of WW tools. That tool is a router dovetail jig. Yes, I know I need to cut a few by hand as well and I will do that and soon. I have a medical condition that fatigues muscles with repetitive motion and so I must budget my physical spending wisely, the condition is know as Myasthenia Gravis if any of you are familiar with it. Mine is under good control, but I still have to be careful and it forces me to rely more on power tools than neander although I wish it were the other way around. Back to the real question.

I would like to do casual dovetails on drawers and possibly a few small boxes and other items as I venture into some "real" projects soon. WW in my case is pure hobby and I anticipate no heavy production use of this machine. I have tried to stay around mid-point in the $ I have invested in my tools and I am very satisified with that level. I have been looking and researching dovetail jigs for some time now and have about decided on the PC4212. I would like to make both half blind and through dovetails on a medimum to small scale. The price is right and it seems to get good reviews from what I have read.

What is the genereal concensous among you in the know. Would this machine work well in my case. Does anyone here have one and if so, how do you like it? I know it is not a D-4 which would be overkill for my needs and ability. I just need a nice, simple and easy to use jig that will make good quality dovetails on a casual basis. Is there a better choice in this price range that I have not explored?

Any help and advice you can offer will be very greatly appreciated.

[Cecil Arnold]

I had a PC jig, not sure if it was the 4212 since I have since sold it, but it would not do through DTs. Perhaps they have made changes to enable this operation. Other than that, it is a good jig within its limits, among those being the ability to get a half tail at the top and bottom since they are set in 1/4-1/2 incriments. I have a D-4, but would certinly consider the Akida as it seems to be easire to set up. For the bucks you may have found the best buy.

[Allen Bookout]

Bob, I have been watching post on the same subject as I am also interested. I do not have any dovetail experience but have seen some good reports on the PC 4212 as a midprice alternative. You may have seen it but the April issue of Workbench magazine had a review on the unit and they sounded positive. It seem to me that the cost of the 4212 is low enough that a guy could use it untill he found out that he needed a more versitile unit. Then just keep it for simpler projects and purchase a D4 or Akida for the more complicated projects. Or just get rid of it if it comes to that. I have been looking at a video (Mastering Your Bandsaw) showing how to cut them on a bandsaw. It does not look too complicated as long as you are willing to take the time, including practice, to be very accurate. I think that the combination of a bandsaw and the PC 4212 would last a fellow a good while as long as he is not doing production work. However, as one guy said to one of my post, just remember what you paid for this advice. A very interested bystander. Allen

[Robby Phelps]

Hi Bob,

I understand your delima. When I set out to research a dovetail jig it took me forever to finally come up with a decision. I decided on the Keller dovetail jig and I am more then pleased with its simplicity, performance, and value. I love that I do not have to make any practice cuts and the joints come out great. I just finished a casket that I made for an elderly client and it had 80 dovetails. With the Keller I had it done in no time and the joinery looks fantastic. (pictures of the finished casket soon to come) I did look really hard at the D4 and the Akeda. They are both great jigs and have a very loyal following. Hope this helps.

Best of luck and if I can help anymore do not hesitate to ask.

[Bob Noles]

Thanks for the input guys. I have looked at the Keller,Akeda and others and like what I hear also. They both boast ease of use and are certainly within the price range I prefer to stay within. I guess the drawback that stood out to me was the fact that many names did not do both styles of dovetails, but as Allen was so kind to point out, the bandsaw is a great way to get around that.

I don't know if anyone has reviewed the videos on the PC4212, but they sure make it look easy as well as versatile. Here is the link if you would like to view them.

http://www.porter-cable.com/jigs/


You have given me even more to think about :eek: That is not a good thing :p

[lou sansone]

just a thought.


I have a dove tail jig and never use it. Unless you are doing kitchens and pieces with tons of DT, I find it easier to simply cut them by hand, and a lot less riskey.
enjoy
lou

[Allen Bookout]

Thanks for the link to the PC dovetail videos. I had seen them before but was having a hard time finding them again. It is difficult for me to see why the other jigs are worth an extra $250 or so. May be some one can enlighten me. Allen

Hey Bob, Check this out: http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/reviews.htm

There are some other links in the simlar threads below "Dovetail Jig".

[Mark Valsi]

AKEDA


The best of them all !

[Mark Riegsecker]

Bob, if you have more time than money, Woodsmith mag has plans for one that works quite well. Don't ask me the # of the issue it's been a long time though.

I made that according to their specks and have been using it ever since. I've used it for most every drawer I've made. It's only good for half blind dovetails though but like Lou, if your not in a big hurry there's nothing like spending time with a chisel on the bench. I hand cut all my large projects.

It does take time but like most everything, the more it's done the more efficient one becomes.

[Bob Noles]

Allen,

Thanks for the link on reviews albiet more material for indecision. I don't know why I am having such a hard time with tool purchases lately. Guess I need to close my eyes and just point to one :) I am still leaning toward the PC4212.... sure looks like bang for the $ for a casual user.

Still open for any other suggestions and input either for or against. What am I missing?

[Robby Phelps]

[QUOTE=Bob Noles]Thanks for the input guys. I have looked at the Keller and the Akida and like what I hear also. They both boast ease of use and are certainly within the price range I prefer to stay within. I guess the drawback that stood out to me was the fact that they did not do through dovetails,


Hi again Bob,

The Keller actually does do through dovetails. Just FYI

[Bob Noles]

Robby,

Thanks for the info. I do like the Keller, but for some reason I was under the impression it did one but not the other. I'll go back and research the Keller further as it certainly has an excellent reputation and looks the easiest of all to use.

Thanks again Robby.

Robby,

I went back and researched the Keller issue just now and I see that it does do the through dovetails and not the half blind. One thing I did see that I missed before was the ability to flip the jig and use it on the router table for making through dovetails. That is a nice feature in my opinion and I'm not sure I saw that capability in the PC4212.

In looking at the reviews on dovetail jigs, it is mentioned that no one jig does it all and there is no "best" jig for all jobs. I guess this is what bugs me in trying to come to terms in trade offs for which jig would serve my all around needs over time. Perhaps I need to revisit what I believe to be my future "needs" before pulling this particular trigger.

Thanks so much for the kind and helpful advice from everyone.

[Carl Eyman]

I think I have that issue of Woodsmith. Get in touch if you want me to look for it.

[Ron Teti]

I have the 12" PC and love it. It does all I want and the set is quite easy. t dont do through DT but for ddrawers and boxes ect ,its the bomb

[Allen Bookout]

Well Bob,

What did you decide to do? I had decided to look into the Akeda after looking at the compairson link so I went to the Woodcraft web site and guess what - it is on sale for $259.99 (reg $329 or so they say). I though to myself "not too bad of a deal" until I looked a little closer. It appears that that is only the jig. To do anything with it you have to spend another $249.99 for the accessory kit but they are going to give you a break and let you buy both for $499,99. Then to add insult to injury you have to spend another $19.99 for instructions on how to use the thing.

May be it is just me but that seems like a lot of money for what you get. I realize that the D4 is just as much so no bargain there either. The Keller is much cheaper untill you look at the cost of their bits. Makes the PC 4212 seem like a better deal but then you are really limited in what you can do. Hand cut - slow and takes a lot of expertise. Bandsaw or bandsaw/tablesaw combination - may be but somewhat slow and tedious and requires careful attention to detail not to mention the practice to get perfect joints. Home made jigs? On and on.

What's my answer? The way I see it is spend a bundle or do with less. Well at least that is an answer - not a good solution but still an answer.

Can anyone come up with something better?

Allen

[Bob Noles]

Well Allen,

I have about researched this thing to death and gathered advice from as many sources and reviews as I could find. Here is my conclusion for "my" particular needs.

PC4212.... On order from Coastal Tools as of this hour.

It looks like it will do anything "I" need to do on a "hobby" scale. After watching the videos I am convinced this is the machine for me for the $ invested. I believe PC got it right on this one. Yes, Keller looks like the absolute easiest but is limitied to through dovetails only as well as size and spacing. While this is not a bad thing, I would like more flexibility if I am going to spend that kind of money on it. They should at least offer the same features as the PC for the higher price. And yes, the bits are pricey, but aren't they all to some degree? My conclusion is based on not wanting or needing to spend big $ on a high end jig that I simply won't use that often or take advantage of all the extra little features they are capable of.

All of the name jigs out there appear to be good in their own realm of design and intent of use. I am not going to claim one is "better" than the other because that would be a most false statement. We simply have to explore our intended use and look for the machine that would come closest to filling that bill. Oh yes, there is some real krud "low end" jigs that looked like a real pain to even attempt to use and I immediately dropped them from my list of possibilities very quickly after researching them. I believe my choice came down between the Keller and the PC. I simply chose the PC for price and flexibility over the Keller. I believe both machines are an excellent choice, it just depends on what you plan to do with each and I did not want to limit myself to only one method and style. I also did not want to have to take night classes to learn to use one of the more complex and capable high end machines ;)

This is one decision I am glad to have off my plate as it has nearly driven me nuts.

I thank those who contributed to this thread with input and advice. All were excellent replies and I thought there for a while I was going to end up with 2 or more jigs :eek:

[Robert Mayer]

I am in the same boat as you. I only heard about 5% of people complain about the 4212. I heard a lot of good reviews and very few bad ones. Im ordering mine this weekend. I would really like to have the 24" capacity of the D4, but its a lot of bucks. I think eventually i would like to learn to do them by hand.

Let us know how your first cut goes!

[Jerry Bittner]

Someone mentioned the Akeda does not do through dovetails-- but it does. Just bought the machine this weekend and I must say with no expereince ever before making dovetails, my first half blind was PERFECT. My first attempt at through dovetails was not as good but after getting more precise with the settings of the straight and dovetail cutter bits, they are getting much better.

As for the Woodcraft price, the basic Akeda DC 16 does give you everthing you need to get started except the bits. It comes with a sufficinet number of template fingers for halfblind and through dovetails, a 7/16" bushing (PC style)for your router.

Check it out at woodcraft
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=4406

The bits range in the area of 15 - 20 bucks.

I did buy the accessory kit which includes all the bits as also described on the woodcraft site plus a coupon good for two other bits.

Again I am not expereinced with joinery but this Akeda makes it easy and the dust collection system is excellent.

Even had the occasion to e-mail the president and inventor of the jig and he personally responded. Can't get much better personalised assistance than that.

[Bob Noles]

Jerry,

It was I that made the erroroneous comment about the Akeda not doing through dovetails. I have since edited and corrected my post. I looked and studied so many names I believe I got thouroughly confused as I eluded to in my initial post.

The Akeda is an excellent choice for HD production work and will serve you well. I just needed something a little less complex for casual use and saved a few $ by going with the PC4212.

I apologize for the confusion.

[Andy London]

I have three Incra fences as I find them to be an amazing bang for the dollar, very easy to use, they do multiple types of joints that are bang on accurate. Two are on router tables and one is on a bandsaw....

When I did cabinetry full time for two years I almost bought a leigh but the price seems desperate high. If I was doing cabinetry again full time, based on what I have read, I would buy the Akeda. I have a couple of neighbour woodworkers that have this jig and they rave about it a lot.

Andy

[Charlie Plesums]

I used the Porter Cable 12 inch for a couple years, but finally graduated to the Leigh D4 to have more options and flexibility. The D4 is sophisticated (some people are turned off by the thick manual) but it is really not hard to use. I predict that most people who start with a fixed spacing jig will eventually upgrade to the D4 or one like it, as I did. (By the way, someone can make me an offer for the 12 inch Porter Cable... it is complete with manuals and original box, and sitting on the shelf collecting dust).

[CPeter James]

I bought the Akeda for $259. I also bought 3 bits at $17.00 and the dust collector at $29.00, a total of $339.00. (Actually you can do half blinds with only one bit.) That's all you need and you don't even need the dust collector. It is great. I love it. The repeatability is amazing. The variable spacing is a feature I wanted. The very first dovetail I cut fit perfectly ( a test cut) so I went on to make 2 drawers and the fit was right on. I can't say enough good about it (sort of like the Festool owners).

BTW the dust collector get 95%+ of the dust.

CPeter

[Allen Bookout]

You Akeda guys sure are persistent and loyal to your product. You are about to break me down. Who do I send the bill to?

By the way, is the $259 really a good deal or can I pick it up later for the same price? I have not been looking at prices very long.

Allen

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bob....I have IIRC the PC 4112. Once set up I found it very easy to use. Would I like to have a Leigh D4? You betcha. Will I have one in the future.....maybe. But.....I was able to buy the PC for about $100 at the time I needed it....it was there on the shelf ....in front of me.......I may upgrade in the future but it was a good machine to use to cut my first dovetails. I don't think you'll regret your purchase.

[Bob Noles]

Thanks again guys for all of your valuable input. I believe once my PC4212 arrives and I have time to give it a try, I will be very satisfied with the machine for my "limited" needs. I have stressed that I had "hobby only" interest and on a casual basis at that, so I believe (hope) I have made the right decision for now. If I am wrong and realize it down the road I know I can always sell the PC4212 and upgrade from there. Hey... we have to start somewhere and learn from there :p


I cannot begin to tell how much I appreciate the real life responses and help and opinions from the fine membership at SMC. Y'all at the GREATEST!

[CPeter James]

The $259 is a special price only at Woodcraft. I don't know for how long, but I think only July. It is $329 everywhere else as far as I can see.

CPeter

[Robert Mayer]

Well thanks for confusing me guys. I was all set to get the PC and now im thinking about the akeda....

[Jerry Bittner]

Well thanks for confusing me guys. I was all set to get the PC and now im thinking about the akeda....

Did a lot of research before I purchased the Akeda this weekend. I have to say the PC manual is more informative than the Akeda. As to the difference in operations, just let me say as one who never before made dovetails, I showed my first test half blind to one of mentors, and he was amazed.

One of the web sites I visited, can't remember which, had a side by side comparison of price and features, and by the time you bought all the extras with the PC, the price difference between that and the Akeda was nominal.

And if you go for the Akeda, grab ahold tight when you pull it off the shelf -- the weight of that thing is surprising. Guess what I'm saying is you'll be impressed with the quality and the heft of the construction.

[Robert Mayer]

Did a lot of research before I purchased the Akeda this weekend. I have to say the PC manual is more informative than the Akeda. As to the difference in operations, just let me say as one who never before made dovetails, I showed my first test half blind to one of mentors, and he was amazed.

One of the web sites I visited, can't remember which, had a side by side comparison of price and features, and by the time you bought all the extras with the PC, the price difference between that and the Akeda was nominal.

And if you go for the Akeda, grab ahold tight when you pull it off the shelf -- the weight of that thing is surprising. Guess what I'm saying is you'll be impressed with the quality and the heft of the construction.

The adjustable pins on the akeda is a big thing i just thought of. I would definitely want to make different spaced dovetails from project to project. That price at woodcraft is really tempting. Anyone know how long the sale is good for?

[Sam O. Raymond]

Hi,

This is my first post on the website, kind of nice here. Why not consider a woodrat, for just a little more this thing really does a nice job, plus you can mortise and tenon with it, profile, dovetail, etc. It may be worth looking into. I just purchased one and am very impressed. www.woodrat.com (http://www.woodrat.com) They seem to be very helpful. Anyhow just a thought
Sam

[Robert Mayer]

Hi,

This is my first post on the website, kind of nice here. Why not consider a woodrat, for just a little more this thing really does a nice job, plus you can mortise and tenon with it, profile, dovetail, etc. It may be worth looking into. I just purchased one and am very impressed. www.woodrat.com (http://www.woodrat.com) They seem to be very helpful. Anyhow just a thought
Sam

cost is definitely an issue with that one. looks like the ultimate one to get though.

[Allen Bookout]

Sam,

I am still thinking about what I am going to do. I did go to the Woodrat web site and they list the price as $695 which is starting to get up there. However I did order the DVD and will take a look.

Thanks! Allen

[Thomas Becknell]

hi bob,

a little late with this post. been away for a while. i got the rockler jig last week & love it. it will do three types of dt's half blind through & box [or] finger joints. easy to setup & fit my budget.:D

[Craig Zettle]

Just a note on the woodrat, as I was seriously interested in it. My porter cable router does not fit the rat, model 690, you know, the one everyone has, so to buy the rat, their prefered router (dewalt), and a eliminator chuck, I was looking at over 1000 dollars. No real deals going on, a few bucks, but as they just raised the price of the rat, knocking a few bucks off is not a real deal to me. Also, the little rat is discontinued, so they are phasing it out.

BTW, I bought the Akeda.

[Allen Bookout]

Craig,

You are right. Way to much money for just a dovetail machine.

Just a note on the Woodcraft Akeda sale. The sale price of the DC-16 jig is $259.99 marked down from $329.99. On the surface that seems pretty good ($70 off) but it does not have any cutters or through dovetail pin guides other than 7 degrees. So to make it do anything to various thicknesses of wood you really need the universal accessory kit at $249.99 for a total of $509.99 or if you buy both together the total is $499.99. I did not check on shipping.

Then I went to the Woodland Tool Company and the cost of the jig is $329.99 plus $249.99 of the accessory kit for a total of $579.99 but if you buy both at the same time the total is $499.99.

So in reality the sale at Woodcraft is not a sale at all but just a sales gimic.

If there is something wrong with my logic let me know. Allen

[Craig Zettle]

Allen,

You are correct about the "package". Not a good deal. I bought the jig, which includes blind and through guides and a guide bushing that fits my porter, and the router bit set that has 5 different sizes of dovetail bits and three straight bits for undersize, oversize and regular, for 89.95. I believe the whole thing ran me 360 and change. To get started with the Akeda I don't think you will beat that.
And one more thing, Woodcraft got me the jig in 3 days with standard shipping.
Things like that are important to me.
They even threw in a couple of pieces of candy.

Craig

[Allen Bookout]

Hi,

This is my first post on the website, kind of nice here. Why not consider a woodrat, for just a little more this thing really does a nice job, plus you can mortise and tenon with it, profile, dovetail, etc. It may be worth looking into. I just purchased one and am very impressed. www.woodrat.com (http://www.woodrat.com) They seem to be very helpful. Anyhow just a thought
Sam

I just received the woodrat video today and just finished watching it. To me it is a great concept that even allows me to understand what is going on including the dovetail logic. I was really impressed. I have spent too much lately to pick one up now ($695 plus bits and add ons - somewhat expensive) but will consider it again when I get ready to buy a dovetail jig. I must be going crazy as the dollars just keep adding up. Does anyone else have any input? Allen

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bob.....has that PC 4212 delivered yet? Have you used it yet? What's the latest BOB?

[Bob Noles]

Bob.....has that PC 4212 delivered yet? Have you used it yet? What's the latest BOB?

Hi Ken,

See this thread http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=22485

I have been swamped with things that have pulled me away from the shop for the past week and it looks like I will continue to be for a few more days yet and then a weekend trip to the cabin this coming Friday. Looks like it will be next week before I get to use it, besides it being hotter than the blazes out there right now. I have been monitoring the shop AC threads real close lately :cool:

Thanks for checking on me.

[Dave Richards]

I just received the woodrat video today and just finished watching it. To me it is a great concept that even allows me to understand what is going on including the dovetail logic. I was really impressed. I have spent too much lately to pick one up now ($695 plus bits and add ons - somewhat expensive) but will consider it again when I get ready to buy a dovetail jig. I must be going crazy as the dollars just keep adding up. Does anyone else have any input? Allen

Allen, I understand the thing about spending too much lately to add another large purchase. I've had my Rat for about 4 years. It's a very good investment in my opinion. As a comparison, if you were to buy a Leigh D4 with the F1 Finger Joint template and MMT Multiple Mortise and Tenon template, you would have about $930 tied up (Woodcraft prices from their online store). The D4 gives you only a 24" capacity while the Rat can handle 36 or more inches. That's not important unless you do larger things like cabinet or chest carcases.

I like the Rat, too because it is always ready to use. I don't have to clear a spot on the bench to use it and I don't have to put it away when I finished with it.

It also sure is handy for things like making dowels and other quick things. I use the Rat for stuff I never imagined I would.

[Allen Bookout]

Dave,

Thanks for the reply. It appears that the learning curve is not too steep for the basic operations. Is this really the case? I know that the guy demonstrating it is an expert and they can make things that are difficult look really easy.

Allen

[Dave Richards]

Allen, the guy demonstrating it is the inventor so he would make it look easy.

Really the learning curve is pretty shallow and short. I think people who say it is too hard to use either haven't used one or haven't thought much about what they're doing. Dovetails are quite simple as are all the other operations. And since you can see what you're cutting, it provides more control in a lot of those operations.

As you saw in the video, the Rat also lets you do climb milling without risking your fingers or having your work pitched across the shop. That makes for tearout-free tenons.