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Gabe Gat
09-10-2014, 5:44 PM
ULS-P50
50W. Laser

I'm in need of new mirrors for my laser, both the mirrors are pretty much worn and flaked away around the outter edges, where's the most econimical place to find them? It's a pretty old machine, maybe there's somewhere to get used ones?
Any advice would be great.

Kevin Gregerson
09-10-2014, 6:10 PM
ULS-P50
50W. Laser

I'm in need of new mirrors for my laser, both the mirrors are pretty much worn and flaked away around the outter edges, where's the most econimical place to find them? It's a pretty old machine, maybe there's somewhere to get used ones?
Any advice would be great.

I really recommend you stay away from used as they will no longer have the coating on them that helps reflective on the laser. I've seen people lose 10%-20% power through a mirror that had been cleaned so much the coat was removed.

The mirrors alone are 75 each plus ship from any ULS channel partner, dealer or direct from universal and its an in-stock item.

620-0001-00-A is the part number.

Dan Hintz
09-10-2014, 9:34 PM
I'm in need of new mirrors for my laser, both the mirrors are pretty much worn and flaked away around the outter edges

If it's just the edges, there's no reason to not continue using them...

Kevin Gregerson
09-11-2014, 1:39 AM
If it's just the edges, there's no reason to not continue using them...

In my experience, if the edges are flaking then most of the reflective coating has already been removed and the power loss rather than being 20% is closer to 50-75%. One guy I worked with ordered a laser and everything else but the optics to get micro improvements. Once the optics were replaced, max cut depth went from struggling .25 to easily doing .5 inches.

Really, clean new optics make a difference. The 50 watts should be able to do half inch acrylic cuts. Older 50 watt more like 3/8s easy and .5 tuned well.

Dan Hintz
09-11-2014, 6:08 AM
In my experience, if the edges are flaking then most of the reflective coating has already been removed and the power loss rather than being 20% is closer to 50-75%.

You do realize how insane those numbers are, right Kevin? At those kind of losses, the mirror would bake itself in a few minutes of use. It's like the local oil change guys who tell me I'm losing 10% of my power due to an old air filter, another 10% for old oil, etc. By the time they're finished, my car would supposedly gain back 50% of its stock horsepower if I just let them change everything. It's amazing the car even made it to the shop, if I listen to them.

Flaking edges mean the optic may have been roughly handled while putting it in the holder, moisture may have become trapped along the edges, etc. But none of that necessarily effects the center portion that carries the main load. I'm a big proponent of taking care of your optics properly and keeping them clean in the first place, but in many cases there's little need for wholesale swap.

Mike Lysov
09-11-2014, 6:53 AM
You can measure your mirrors and find the same on ebay or alliexpress. Just make sure that you are buying the same specs mirrors as the ones you are using in Universal. I would check with sellers mirror thickness and diameter to make sure they match with your current mirrors.
From the other hand their exact size and thickness may not be relevant at all if they are supposed to be glued and do not sit in some mirror holders.

Bill George
09-11-2014, 8:22 AM
You can measure your mirrors and find the same on ebay or alliexpress. Just make sure that you are buying the same specs mirrors as the ones you are using in Universal. I would check with sellers mirror thickness and diameter to make sure they match with your current mirrors.
From the other hand their exact size and thickness may not be relevant at all if they are supposed to be glued and do not sit in some mirror holders.
Lightobject dot com has replacement mirrors. Measure and replace that way you will know, save the old for spares . Most digital if not all digital calipers have Metric readout available.

Gabe Gat
09-11-2014, 4:39 PM
296493296494Thanks for all the replies, here are the mirrors in question. Would I be power loss based on this wear? It's a pretty old tube so I'm not getting near 50w in the first place. I assume based on the conversations here I can just find a cheapish .75" x 1/8" mirror, pop these ones off the bracket, re-glue on be on my way?

George M. Perzel
09-11-2014, 5:46 PM
Hi gang;
I am curious-who out there is cleanly cutting 1/2" acrylic in one pass with 50 watts Co2 laser?
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

Scott Shepherd
09-11-2014, 6:06 PM
Hi gang;
I am curious-who out there is cleanly cutting 1/2" acrylic in one pass with 50 watts Co2 laser?
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

In the past, when all we had was 45w, I cut a lot of 1/2" clear acrylic. Not in a hurry, but I cut it.

Gabe Gat
09-11-2014, 6:07 PM
Hi gang;
I am curious-who out there is cleanly cutting 1/2" acrylic in one pass with 50 watts Co2 laser?
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

I used to be able to get a clean cut through .5" acrylic no problem with my 50W.

Dave Sheldrake
09-11-2014, 7:09 PM
Hiya George,

It's the difference between RF and DC excited tubes brother ;) An RF unit will punch at *roughly* twice the DC weight :)

cheers

Dave

Paul Phillips
09-11-2014, 8:04 PM
Would I be power loss based on this wear?
Gabe, you might not get 50% back but based on those pictures I would say it couldn't hurt to go ahead and replace them!

Gary Hair
09-11-2014, 8:36 PM
George,
Believe it or not, I have cut 1/2" acrylic in one pass with my 30 watt laser. Granted, it was at 100% power and 1% speed - nothing I'd ever do for money, it took ffffoooorrrrreeeevvvveeeeerrrr, but it did it none the less.

Dan Hintz
09-12-2014, 6:58 AM
296493296494Thanks for all the replies, here are the mirrors in question. Would I be power loss based on this wear? It's a pretty old tube so I'm not getting near 50w in the first place. I assume based on the conversations here I can just find a cheapish .75" x 1/8" mirror, pop these ones off the bracket, re-glue on be on my way?

Those are hardly worn "at the outer edges"... those things are entirely trashed. I wouldn't even fire the beam against those. Replace immediately.

Kevin Gregerson
09-12-2014, 11:14 AM
296493296494Thanks for all the replies, here are the mirrors in question. Would I be power loss based on this wear? It's a pretty old tube so I'm not getting near 50w in the first place. I assume based on the conversations here I can just find a cheapish .75" x 1/8" mirror, pop these ones off the bracket, re-glue on be on my way?

Those mirrors are done, and yes, you are losing a ton of power. I'd bet your lens and beam window are done as well based on the look of the mirrors. I had one client with a machine in similar condition to yours. Started at 26.2 watts ended up at 53.6 after replacing all the optics. Check around with optics suppliers that do ZNSE they should be able to get you older optics for your laser.

Also, you can go aftermarket mirrors, but remember universal Quality checks the crap out of their suppliers and will not carry them if they don't meet spec. If you want aftermarket mirrors and lenses most of us dealers can get them to you cheaper by 10-20 percent. But the power coming out of them that I've tested has been a 3-5% difference in power at the cutting table. Reliability has been about the same though.

Also, old universal tubes really don't mean you've lost anything for power. I've seen a number of 10 year old 50 watt universal tubes still putting out 53-58 watts. Though, your model has tubes that aren't made by Universal rather they are made by Synrad who have similar reliability ratings.

Neil Pabia
09-12-2014, 11:18 AM
I just bought a mirror from Epilog, .75 x .120 and it cost $40 with shipping. It may be worth using their mirrors instead of the more expensive ones.

Martin Boekers
09-12-2014, 5:11 PM
I'd say you got your money's worth out of those mirrors!

Mirrors on one of the cheapest investments on a laser. How long have these been used?
Are they cleaned regularly? Are you rastering or engraving something different than recommended?

You should see great improvement when replaced, which could pay for those mirrors in a short time...

Lee DeRaud
09-12-2014, 6:30 PM
Are they cleaned regularly?Looks like they were scrubbed with steel wool once a week, whether they needed it or not. :eek:

Dan Hintz
09-12-2014, 7:24 PM
Looks like they were scrubbed with steel wool once a week, whether they needed it or not. :eek:

;)

Optics should never be allowed to get even within a football field of that level of abuse. I expected some slightly chipping or foxing around the edges, but the entire piece was obviously abused in another life.

Kevin Gregerson
09-12-2014, 9:06 PM
;)

Optics should never be allowed to get even within a football field of that level of abuse. I expected some slightly chipping or foxing around the edges, but the entire piece was obviously abused in another life.

They get like that when put into storage in the middle of the country for some reason. I think it has something to do with a combination of heat and cold with all the chemicals in the machine becoming corrosive fumes or something to that nature. If you plan to store the machine for long periods of time it's best to pull the optics and store them in their own container in a ziplock. They last longer that way.

Lee DeRaud
09-12-2014, 10:34 PM
Vaguely related question: mirrors/lenses are easy to replace, but how hard is it to remove/replace the beam window in a VL200?
From the front it looks like it's in some kind of rubber/plastic grommet...I hate those things.

Howard Garner
09-13-2014, 7:02 AM
Easy,
You do need access to the back side, but it just has a "nut" holding it together.
So take off some covers and have at it.

Howard Garner
VL300 & VLS350 both 30 Watt

Dan Hintz
09-13-2014, 8:34 AM
They get like that when put into storage in the middle of the country for some reason. I think it has something to do with a combination of heat and cold with all the chemicals in the machine becoming corrosive fumes or something to that nature. If you plan to store the machine for long periods of time it's best to pull the optics and store them in their own container in a ziplock. They last longer that way.

it's the moisture I mentioned earlier... but that optic had to have been practically sitting in water ;) Just like with a bathroom mirror, once moisture gets under the edge of the coating, it will continue to wick in and destroy from the edges inward. That's also why I said a mirror can be perfectly usable if it's just the edges that are flaking... but that piece was well beyond "just the edges".

Lee DeRaud
09-13-2014, 10:17 AM
Easy,
You do need access to the back side, but it just has a "nut" holding it together.
So take off some covers and have at it.Ah, good to know, thanks.
I left those PITA rear cover screws off (a tip from the tech when I replaced the tube a couple years ago), so that shouldn't be too bad.

Neil Pabia
09-13-2014, 12:44 PM
296596
Those mirrors are a bit worse than mine was, I was able to just turn my mirror and restore full power.
Anyone have an idea of what caused this?

Howard Garner
09-13-2014, 3:12 PM
Do you have a copy of the service manual?
I have a zip file if you need it. Covers VL200 and VL300

Howard Garner

Chuck Stone
09-13-2014, 10:05 PM
296596
Those mirrors are a bit worse than mine was, I was able to just turn my mirror and restore full power.
Anyone have an idea of what caused this?

I wonder if it was just not cleaned completely? If you get residue on it and
leave it there, the beam can heat the residue and cook the coating.

Kev Williams
09-13-2014, 11:38 PM
I can't even fathom how mirrors can get that bad? The original mirrors in my 18 year old ULS and 10 year old LS900 look like brand new. Every once in awhile they get a Q-tip wiped over them. Pics are of the lens head mirror on my ULS. The gantry mirror looks no worse--


296693296694

Kevin Gregerson
09-14-2014, 12:26 AM
I can't even fathom how mirrors can get that bad? The original mirrors in my 18 year old ULS and 10 year old LS900 look like brand new. Every once in awhile they get a Q-tip wiped over them. Pics are of the lens head mirror on my ULS. The gantry mirror looks no worse--


296693296694

Depends on the user and what they are used for. Converters who are running 3m materials tend to go through at least a set of optics every year. Schools, seem to be on two extremes either once a quarter or once every several years. Really depends on the usage. I find the ones in labs tend to need a lot more work. Where the ones dedicated to a department tend to be better as the training gets passed down correctly. Military is probably the most random when it comes to maintenance needs. It seems to be timed more towards military activity than materials or anything else.

Lee DeRaud
09-14-2014, 9:46 AM
Do you have a copy of the service manual?
I have a zip file if you need it. Covers VL200 and VL300

Howard GarnerThanks, that would be great. The only one I have is marked "Safety, Installation, Operation, and Basic Maintenance", certainly not to the level I'd expect from a service manual. (That said, except for a tube replacement in '09, it's been running like a clock going on ten years now.)
lee.deraud@roadrunner.com

Dave Sheldrake
09-14-2014, 5:21 PM
it's the moisture I mentioned earlier... but that optic had to have been practically sitting in water ;) Just like with a bathroom mirror, once moisture gets under the edge of the coating, it will continue to wick in and destroy from the edges inward. That's also why I said a mirror can be perfectly usable if it's just the edges that are flaking... but that piece was well beyond "just the edges".

Bond between PVD and substrate Dan? looks that way, hence reason I don't use PVD mirrors these days only Molys (IOR is about 0.4% lower but more resilient for sure) I'd guess the OP wasn't long away from punching a hole in his ;)

cheers

Dave

Neil Pabia
09-15-2014, 12:14 PM
I wonder if it was just not cleaned completely? If you get residue on it and
leave it there, the beam can heat the residue and cook the coating.

Possible, except that this mirror was in a sealed area.