Yet another help me decide on a machine post...

[Kit Dumph]

The more I research it seems the more murky things seem to get.
I was really considering just going with one of the big three until I started reading on here and doing some more research.
Now I'm really liking the Shenhui lasers, and importing doesn't bother me since I already do it for a different business.
Rabbit isn't off the board, but it seems they offer a Shenhui laser, but with some quality USA tech support?

I'm a complete newbie at this, and though I won't rely on it for direct income I'd like to make money with the laser and perhaps see if it could become a direct source of income for me in the future.

So my questions are as follows,
Is there a measurable difference in say an epilog machine to a comparable Shenhui machine? Minus of course the customer service and tec support I would get from Epilog.

Should I go with the larger and more powerful Shenhui machine since they all will be well under 10k?

What kind of learning curve should I expect? I'm comfortable with learning new software such as coral draw. So it would be more on using the laser and settings? 1 year, 2 years?

Is there anyone on this board here in Colorado, USA I could get in touch with and perhaps meet up with to learn from?

I'll stop there for now:)

Thank you for all the support and information you guys put out there.

[Kevin Gregerson]

The more I research it seems the more murky things seem to get.
I was really considering just going with one of the big three until I started reading on here and doing some more research.
Now I'm really liking the Shenhui lasers, and importing doesn't bother me since I already do it for a different business.
Rabbit isn't off the board, but it seems they offer a Shenhui laser, but with some quality USA tech support?

I'm a complete newbie at this, and though I won't rely on it for direct income I'd like to make money with the laser and perhaps see if it could become a direct source of income for me in the future.

So my questions are as follows,
Is there a measurable difference in say an epilog machine to a comparable Shenhui machine? Minus of course the customer service and tec support I would get from Epilog.

Should I go with the larger and more powerful Shenhui machine since they all will be well under 10k?

What kind of learning curve should I expect? I'm comfortable with learning new software such as coral draw. So it would be more on using the laser and settings? 1 year, 2 years?

Is there anyone on this board here in Colorado, USA I could get in touch with and perhaps meet up with to learn from?

I'll stop there for now:)

Thank you for all the support and information you guys put out there.

It isn't just support, it's also material databases, time saved hunting for settings, consistency, job control and logs, speed, availability of parts, resale value, modular design, and ability to rebuild the machine. I doubt you could find the parts to rebuild machines made in the mid to late 90s by very few companies let alone a chinese one. Even more recent ones around 2008 i've found lurking in shops unable to be rebuilt due to vendors going out of business etc.

Ask around, ask for references to customers who bought machines 10-15 years ago. See how happy those customers are, and that will give you a better idea of the stability of your product choice.

[Mike Null]

And perhaps most important--quality of components and assembly vs. Chinese made machines.

I can certainly understand the cost consideration but the required "hands on" repair, adjusting and tuning which seems to be necessary with almost all Chinese built machines would be a stopper for me.

[Ernest Martin]

It probably comes down to quality, parts, and tech support. If I was doing just a hobby thing I would probably consider a Chinese laser but if my business depended on it I would probably be a little hesitant.
As far as parts I have ordered things from China and had it air freighted to my business faster than I could get things from a west coast business (I'm on the East coast).

[Scott Shepherd]

So my questions are as follows,
Is there a measurable difference in say an epilog machine to a comparable Shenhui machine? Minus of course the customer service and tec support I would get from Epilog.


Yes, there most certainly is a measurable difference in Western machines and a Shenhui machine. Does the areas where they are different matter to you? I have no idea. Both systems have their places.

[Kit Dumph]

Yes, there most certainly is a measurable difference in Western machines and a Shenhui machine. Does the areas where they are different matter to you? I have no idea. Both systems have their places.

In simliar speced machines, is the detail and ability of the machines going to be that much different? What are the areas that typically matter to most people, that the Shenhui machine would fall short?

[Kit Dumph]

And perhaps most important--quality of components and assembly vs. Chinese made machines.

I can certainly understand the cost consideration but the required "hands on" repair, adjusting and tuning which seems to be necessary with almost all Chinese built machines would be a stopper for me.

This might be a stopper for me as well, I don't mind some initial set up with the machine but If I'm constantly having to repair a machine I know nothing about that might be problem.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I've looked at the machines, thought about them, evaluated them and my conclusion is pretty simple.

If you want to raster engrave; buy a mainstream laser. If you want to vector cut; seriously consider a Chinese machine.

[Scott Shepherd]

This might be a stopper for me as well, I don't mind some initial set up with the machine but If I'm constantly having to repair a machine I know nothing about that might be problem.

If you aren't up to troubleshooting and fixing things, then I suggest you spend some time looking at this forum in detail. Take a look at what is asked on a daily basis. On any given day, probably 60% of the posts on this forum are people asking for help with their Chinese laser. There's 15 pages on a sticky topic that is full of people asking for help. If that is something that you can deal with, then it's probably a good choice. If that's not something you can deal with, then it's probably not a good choice.

Like I said, each has their place and only you know if it's something you can handle. Some people are handy and like to jump in and fix things, some people don't know which end of a screwdriver to hold. Depending where you are on that spectrum, will help decide on which direction to go.

It's your money, I can't help you spend it, but please educate yourself based on this forum and make an informed decision. There is no "right" answer, there's only a "right answer for you" and you have to make that call.

[Martin Boekers]

9 times out of 10 any purchase I have ever made due to pricing had been a wrong decision... Do the research, attend a trade show where you can actually see machines in action.
Talk with the reps, watch machines perform at high speed settings to see how smooth they run. Many here have Chinese Lasers and are happy with them, many do by spare parts with their initial order, just in case. If you don't use it daily you may run into more tube issues with glass tubes.

You location matters for getting parts, if your not in the USA then parts for Western Lasers can be expensive... Good Luck with your decision!

Welcome to SMC..... soooo much info here!

[David Somers]

Kit,

It might help folks if you could describe what you want to do with the machine? Is this for a serious business? A hobby business? A plain old hobby?

Are you OK with technology? I am not talking about having to assemble a circuit board or do assembly language coding, but are you able to maneuver your way around the inside of a computer nowadays if needed or are you totally reliant on a product's tech support people for help? Sounds like you deal with importing other things. Are you comfortable deciphering manuals that have been poorly translated from Chinese to English? I can send you an example of one if you have not looked before. The company I am going to be purchasing from kindly sent me both the manual and the software so I could see if I can deal with it OK.

I am about to order a machine myself. I am going to retire soon. I hope to have a semi paying business in my loved hobby of woodturning and will use a laser, and perhaps a CNC in conjunction with that and for other uses. But it is not a prime component of a business that I will rely on to fund my food and shelter. So it is far out of my league to consider a western machine. And as much as I respect and like the folks at Rabbit, and as reasonable as their prices are their pricing is also beyond what I was really prepared to put into this. For comparison....a western machine in the size and power I was looking for was about $30k. A Rabbit was around $10k. A directly ordered Chinese machine was around $3.6k with shipping and enough spare parts to choke a horse. The hidden costs of course are...no local support, some degree of language barrier when I do need support. A translated chinese manual, and some degree of fussing with the machine over its life. Though that seems to be wildly variable machine to machine. I am in IT, and am used to dealing with techy stuff everyday in a wide variety of equipment, and used to dealing with tech support staff all over the world and am not too phased by language barriers. Patience and friendliness will overcome some pretty major language differences in my experiences. Just don't drink too much coffee before making a foreign tech support call. (I am talking about patience as it relates to caffeine BTW, not bladder control <grin>)

So it made sense for me to pursue the chinese purchase route. Although I honestly wish I could have justified going with Rabbit. I do like Ray and Carole a bunch and can see they have built their business on the care they give their customers.

So that is my story in a nutshell. Hope that helps give you a little perspective on the choices.

Dave

[Kit Dumph]

Thank you for all the support thus far! I would like this to be a hobby business, with a possibility to grow into something larger. I have about 8 years of woodworking experience and while I don't have much in terms of technology background I feel I'm pretty savvy being part of a much younger generation. I'm only 26 and though I've never soldered on a circuit board I have taken apart iPhones and computers and replaced parts before (with youtube help of course).

So in a nutshell, if I go with a western machine... which will be Epilog since they are out of Colorado I will be mostly hassle free.
If I go with a Chinese machine and import, I can get a machine that through a western provider would cost me 30k, but only 3500 through china. Yet, will not be hassle free.
Or I can go somewhere in the middle with a Rabbit machine...

[Mike Null]

You might also browse the classifieds here for used equipment.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?221371-Universal-Laser-X2-600-Near-Chicago-IL

[Scott Shepherd]

I can get a machine that through a western provider would cost me 30k, but only 3500 through china. Yet, will not be hassle free.
Or I can go somewhere in the middle with a Rabbit machine...

You don't have to spend $30,000 on a laser for a mainstream model. We've bought 3 and we've never come close to spending $30,000 on one yet. Epilog makes models that are less than $10K. Contact an Epilog sales rep and see what they offer before you go believing you have to spend $30,000 on a machine.

[Paul Phillips]

Epilog makes models that are less than $10K. Contact an Epilog sales rep and see what they offer before you go believing you have to spend $30,000 on a machine.
I agree with Steve, but better yet, if you are close enough to Golden I would recommend you go see their showroom and ask to see a demo, they may even have slightly used demo models for sale! Also, check out their Facebook page, they are having an Engravers show this weekend that may be worth checking out, Epilog is known for being probably the friendliest company in terms of customer support and resources available. Whatever you decide, good luck!

[Kit Dumph]

I agree with Steve, but better yet, if you are close enough to Golden I would recommend you go see their showroom and ask to see a demo, they may even have slightly used demo models for sale! Also, check out their Facebook page, they are having an Engravers show this weekend that may be worth checking out, Epilog is known for being probably the friendliest company in terms of customer support and resources available. Whatever you decide, good luck! Awesome, will be going to that expo this weekend. Can't believe all the help you guys are willing to dish out. Thank you again, I have lots more to ponder now.

[Scott Shepherd]

Awesome, will be going to that expo this weekend. Can't believe all the help you guys are willing to dish out. Thank you again, I have lots more to ponder now.

Wait until you get our bill ;) Good luck in your shopping, whichever direction you go.

[Kevin Gregerson]

Thank you for all the support thus far! I would like this to be a hobby business, with a possibility to grow into something larger. I have about 8 years of woodworking experience and while I don't have much in terms of technology background I feel I'm pretty savvy being part of a much younger generation. I'm only 26 and though I've never soldered on a circuit board I have taken apart iPhones and computers and replaced parts before (with youtube help of course).

So in a nutshell, if I go with a western machine... which will be Epilog since they are out of Colorado I will be mostly hassle free.
If I go with a Chinese machine and import, I can get a machine that through a western provider would cost me 30k, but only 3500 through china. Yet, will not be hassle free.
Or I can go somewhere in the middle with a Rabbit machine...

All of them have something in the 10-15k range. It's really all on how you configure the system setup. The same system can range from 10k to 20k depending on the configuration adds etc. You'd be surprised how fast the price goes up as you either A) add power normally runs about 100-160 a watt , B) Add lens kits(range from 300 to 1600 dollars each size)

[Kit Dumph]

Well the expo was informative, but I was hoping for a bit more of a discount that what was offered. I think the mini 24 in 40 watt would be perfect for me, but was only offered 500 off the advertised price and an extra year on the warranty. Might see if I can get a more personalized demo at the factory and perhaps some better pricing this coming week. I did fire off a email to Ray over at RabbitUSA today though. Only real thing I'm worried about is the software the machine uses. Seems the rabbits aren't able to use new versions of coral draw such as X7 which I have and I really like the print function on the epilogs.

One other question, does anyone run these in colder environments? I originally wanted to put this thing in my garage which isn't heated. I'm in Colorado and temps get into the negatives on occasion. Would the machine be fine to just sit there? Only used when temps are above freezing?

[Kevin Gregerson]

These are air cooled systems, below about 50 degrees if you attempt to fire them many times they won't work and firing them when this cold will eventually cause premature laser tube failure that no one covers. I can't speak for Epilog or rabbit but on Universal my general advice is to keep a heater near the laser tube intake and run it for at least 10 minutes before you fire up the laser Tube. The ideal temperature for air cooled lasers is between 70-80 degrees. When you get up and over 80 the laser tube starts to saturate with heat and basically starts losing power. Liquid cooled systems can get around the heat portion with a cooler. But the cold side is kind of like PVC, just be aware of what the issue is and work around it.

[Kit Dumph]

Thank you for the info, I thought that might be the case. I can certainly heat up the area the machine would be in before use. Going to have to do a little more research I guess if I go with a Rabbit which isn't air cooled if my understanding is correct.

[Dan Hintz]

I can certainly heat up the area the machine would be in before use.

Note that the area and the machine should come up to temp before use... this means getting the room up to temp, followed by waiting a good half hour or more before use. That can put a real damper on use if you have a quick one-off to do.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Thank you for the info, I thought that might be the case. I can certainly heat up the area the machine would be in before use. Going to have to do a little more research I guess if I go with a Rabbit which isn't air cooled if my understanding is correct.

They are indeed, Glass tubes with water fed cooling. I've used glass tubes from -9 degrees C up to ambient of 30 degrees C and so long as you have good anti freeze and let the machine settle you will have no problems with glass tubes.

The problem with water cooled machines isn't the machine running temperature (ideally the water should be between 15 and 19 degrees) it's running them so cold that condensation becomes an issue. In theory the colder the laser resonator the more efficient it is, getting them cold is easy, dealing with the problems that sub zero coolants cause isn't.

Rabbit Machines are made on the whole by HX King Rabbit over in China and I've had a few of them rebranded for UK sale, never really had any downtime as I don't use direct import machines (they are more trouble than I can accept).

In general there is no "Best machine", I often here about "My western made Universal/epilog/trotech beats any of your far eastern junk" to which my response is usually.. "Ok how about I stick your toy laser inside my far eastern made Mitsubishi and cut it up just for fun" On the whole 99.9% of the machines that are discussed here are small business/hobby lasers and don't have the capability of industrial machines for both reliability and price.(Yes an $80,000 Trotech is a hobby machine competitively)

All comes down to what you want the machine for, a new business may be able to swallow failure if the machine costs $10,000 but may fall if the same machine needs to earn back $30,000 before it makes a running profit.

cheers

Dave

[Mike Null]

Dave

i have higher regard for your expertise than any of the other members but this is ridiculous: (Yes an $80,000 Trotech is a hobby machine competitively).

A half ton pick up truck is equally "industrial" with Kenilworth Semi-trailer truck. That a school teacher drives it makes it no less industrial, just versatile.

[Dan Hintz]

Dave

i have higher regard for your expertise than any of the other members but this is absurd: (Yes an $80,000 Trotech is a hobby machine competitively).

I think he's comparing it to machines that are easily in the quarter- to half-mil range. It's not what you or I would consider "hobby", but then again, we're not used to standing next to a laser processing cell that could dwarf a small home, either. To us, an $80k machine seems quite tasty, but it's small potatoes to what's used in industry. It's all perspective.

[Mike Null]

Dan

My point is that "industry" has been using lower power CO2 lasers for years as a reliable and productive tools. That hobbyists are able to afford them does not make them less "industrial". As an engineer you know that you never buy a 400 watt machine if an 80 watt will do the job. The ROI just doesn't justify it.

[mariano peña ascanio]

I think what you pay for a good brand, I buy two Chinese machines. and I doubled the producion. I also believe that all components are easy to change or modify.

[Mike Null]

Mariano

Welcome to Sawmill Creek.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hiya Mike,

It's all about comparison, for industrial use it's all about throughput and accuracy, I have Chinese made, Western made and Japanese lasers and of all of them the by far most powerful and accurate is the Mitsu, then again at several times the cost of an average house it better be or I'm going to be on the phone to my supplier pretty quick.

I think all lasers have a place in the market and most certainly have uses specific to their ability (I'm not going to be using a Chinese cutter to try and gas out steel for example no matter what the Chinese companies claims are)

Much of my contention is that while the mid priced Western stuff is better made, in general quite a lot faster and in many cases more accurate that in itself isn't a prime reason for buying one to me if the job I want to do only requires roughing out shapes that have a +/- 0.2mm accuracy requirement. (ROI as you mentioned my friend). Compared to Chinese machines Western made, are for 99% of the common reasons better, but they should be, they cost more. In some ways though it's a false comparison as if I'm going to cut 15mm steel at any speed then comparing the 400 watt Kern to a 7.5Kw Mitsu is going to solicit the same kind of comparison even though the Kern is a fine piece of kit for what it does. The Mitsu should beat it hands down, it costs 20x as much.

All about horses for courses my friend or the right tool for the job irrespective of the actual machines costs or functions.

cheers

Dave

[Mike Null]

Dave

Sorry if I used the wrong choice of words. My contention is that calling the western made machines hobby machines isn't accurate considering the number of industries here in the US and I would imagine in the UK which use them daily to perform important operations in their production. The fact that these machines can be relied upon to perform year after year with a minimum of downtime separates them from hobby machines.

[Martin Boekers]

There is nothing wrong with a Chinese laser. Even better if you are hands on and easily work with things. Each has it's place.

For the business I'm in, a Trotec, Epilog or ULS makes sense (for me) For the first couple years they are covered under warranty.
I have 2 Epilogs, (could easily be Trotecs or ULS) Say my cost was $30,000 ea with 260 work days a year ( just for fun say no weekends... ;) )
Over a 5 year payoff, that's roughly $25 a day each (not counting depreciation.) In the nine years I have had them I have replace tubes in both(
4 total) Two there was no charge. A few motors here and there, encoder strips, a mother board and an amplifier board. So yes there is operating
expense with any piece of equipment. For me, even though the investment was quite a bit more than Non-Western Lasers, I new if one went down
I would be up and running within 24hrs, parts would be shipped overnight and someone would walk me through replacement. Only once was I
down 48hrs. I run the machine about 6 hours a day, so when one is down, I'm not making money, plus I am noted for quick turns so not making
a deadline could hurt the business... So that's why I chose what I chose.

When making a purchase decision explore your needs, what is important, price? customer service? speed? consistency? maintenance etc. Weight each
of these with contingencies and you'll find the right machine that fits your business/hobby model.

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree, each machine has it's place. I know for a fact that we couldn't have done a fair amount of work we have done over the years on a Chinese C02 laser. I would estimate that we have done well over $100,000 worth of work that wouldn't work on a Chinese C02 laser. What's the cost of that lost work? Well, clearly over $100,000. Would I have saved anything by buying one? Sure, I would have saved money up front, but it would have lost me all that work.

Does that mean you'll experience the same thing? I have no idea or no way of knowing. For what we do, the $3,000 laser simply won't work. It will work on a percentage of the stuff we do, but I'm not fond of leaving the rest of the money on the table for someone else to take, unchallenged. I'm not looking for a machine that will handle 60% of my needs, I need a machine that will handle 100% (or close) of my needs.

One can spout "I could buy 10 machines vs. 1 machine" all day long, but when you have a customer with a large order walk in the door and you can't service them on any of the 10 lasers you have stacked up in the new building you had to build to house them all, the value of them quickly becomes zero for that job.

It's all relative to what you do and what you want to do. What works fantastic for one person doesn't work at all for another person. It really is that individual of a decision.

[Kevin Gregerson]

Dan

My point is that "industry" has been using lower power CO2 lasers for years as a reliable and productive tools. That hobbyists are able to afford them does not make them less "industrial". As an engineer you know that you never buy a 400 watt machine if an 80 watt will do the job. The ROI just doesn't justify it.

Also, a 400 watt machine doesn't always to the job that a 75 or a 150 watt machine does.

400 watts with a small 1.5 lens could create a bit too much power density for some materials and it could render the kiss cut impossible. A 4000, 400 watt has it's place just as much as a 50 or 150 watt laser do in industry. It's just a mater of materials and your goals with those materials.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Predominantly the big names in lasers (Yamazaki(Mazak) Mitsubishi, Bystronic, Amada etc tend to be cutting lasers but the speed and acceleration figures for gantry based are astounding. I thought I had the best with the Mitsu and it's 5G accl but Primo-Syncrono are claiming 16G (and having seen one running I have few if any doubts they are being truthful).(5G doesn't sound like much but on running gear that weighs more than the average small machine it is)

As to focal lengths Kevin and power density, the big names usually have auto cartridge change so selecting focal lengths isn't a problem or they more usually use adaptive optics so making focal length of a lens moot. Power can be dialled down to practically zero BUT wavelength is always going to be an issue, we are still stuck with very small ranges for the resonators, sure I'm not going to be engraving on plywood at 4Kw or suchlike but that's a limitation of the wavelength more so than the actual machines.

The technology used on mid priced (sub $80k) machines is good...in some cases very good but still streets behind the facilities available on the main manufacturers boxes and years ahead of the Chinese cutters. One thing you can be sure of though, China will catch up VERY quickly, the one thing they are good at is taking other peoples developments and making them cheaper (for a number of financial reasons). An example is the SLC 200 watt GSI tube, that's a £22,000 pipe here (they are made in the UK) but I have just picked up a Chinese copy that performs within fractions of what my genuine tube does but at 1/4 the price!
They will do the same with everything else (Copyright in China is almost not heard of, they like it, they copy it) with just this week I've heard one of the bigger Chinese names has decided to get into the SLS Resin based 3D printer market.

Hopefully our Western manufacturers will respond and adapt or I very much fear they will go the same way the UK Motorcycle industry did.

In the West it is very much "We have a great product, lets sell lots of them for the next 5 years"

In the Far East it is "We have a great product, what can we change and how many should we plan to sell 30 years from now"

I agree with the guys though, (Scotty, Mike etc) if a 50 watt does it, buy a 50 watt just don't expect it to cut armour plate if that is what you need to do.

cheers

Dave