Buying of Japanese saws. Need advice

[Jonathan Gennaro]

Hey all,

I'm looking to purchase my first Japanese saw set. I've been trying to research it somewhat but I'm kinda lost of what to really get. I've decided I would like one saw with a double side for rip/crosscuts, and another saw dedicated to dovetails. I've got that far ;). I have a woodcraft fairly close to be but from what I've seen they're kinda over priced with what they offer. I mostly do small work, but would like this big enough. Mostly work with hardwoods, and would like to be able to cut tenons.

Can anyone recommend a good deal online?

thanks

[Jim Koepke]

I think my last one or two came from Hida Tools in Berkeley, CA. They were not far from home back then.

They seem to not work for me as well as western saws. They do leave a nicer finish but I never was able to master the art of sawing straight with one. They also seem a lot more delicate than the western saws.

jtk

[Pat Barry]

I bought an inexpensive one from HD. It has a plastic handle and replaceable double sided blade. I use it occasionally, mostly when I want a fine cut on small parts. The blade seems pretty whippy but actually works nicely due to the tension from the cutting motion. I do not have the dovetail saw. I would rather use the western style saw for that purpose.

[David Weaver]

In my opinion, and I've tried a bunch of japanese saws except the most expensive fully hand made...well, thanks to stan covington, I got to try a serious fully handmade saw, but they are generally out of my price range given the woods we work and their ability to break teeth (stans saw was a different animal entirely, equivalent in toughness to a western saw but a little harder).

Anyway, here's what I think:
* the saws that the borg carries are OK, but they're floppy. You could use them to see if you hate the saws or like them OK, and if you think they're a bit floppy, know that the machine made saws by gyochuko are a bit stiffer. The semi hand made and hand made saws are hollow ground usually and stiffer yet, some to the point that they're not suitable for a beginner (a bind can lead to a broken plate or toe).
* The z saws are decent, their crosscut saw is good. I broke the teeth off of the dozuki. Woodcraft shows some of the Z saws. I think other than the 240 crosscut (that's marked with an 8) and maybe an @330 saw or something coarse, I'd go gyochuko all the way
* woodcrafts prices, in my opinion, are unacceptable and you can do a lot better. That's a running theme there, it's probably just a consequence of franchising and having to have prices high enough to pay franchising and brick and mortar
* Gyochuko and z saws can be had all over the place on ebay, online other places (toolsfromjapan.com, hida tool, tashirohardware.com)
* the more expensive machine made saws that aren't gyochuko or Z, in my opinion, are sold by retailers who don't want to compete with people who can price low. I have used a couple (one from rockler, and a few from other places - though rockler does carry some Z)....anyway, in my opinion, you go gyochuko, then Z if gyochuko doesn't have what you want and if you can't find what you want there, then go to semi-handmade and handmade. In my opinion, the saws that are $70 or $100 and machine made don't offer you much and are often less durable than gyochuko. The only exception could be a rip dozuki if you want something with true rip teeth, but you are pleasing yourself with a saw like that - in the flow of a project, a saw that cuts a dovetail in 3 strokes instead of 4 doesn't really save you time - that's not where the time really is in cutting dovetails. You'll be pissed when those saws have chipped teeth.

If you don't have anything at all, in my opinion, you want a good combination dozuki, a decent crosscut kataba (a kataba doesn't sand the backside of a cut like a ryoba) and a coarse (270-300mm) and medium or small ryoba (210-240mm)

If the teeth have too much set, lightly stone them with a diamond hone or a sharpening stone, but with care, you can't move them back because they are impulse hardened.

I have broken teeth on every type of saw I've used except gyochuko, they just seem to be a little tougher. That includes the $100 rip dozuki from LV, the Z combination dozuki, some semi-handmade saws, and I could find others if I went downstairs and looked at my pile. I tended to use my japanese saws only in stuff that works in the vise, when it comes to work bigger than that, they can't hang with my western saws (ripping and breaking down hardwoods). For big work where you're breaking down lumber, unless you are a japanese saw fanatic, you'll work faster with inexpensive western saws. The only rip saw that I've tried that could come close was a custom saw that stan covington sent me, and it was close to 4 figures. It was a fabulous saw (really a work of art), but not an everyman device, and I'd have needed two to carry out my ripping and probably still lagged behind western saw speed.

I have never abused a japanese saw, though. You'll find that once you get into swift work in hard wood, if the saw isn't of stan covington's saw's quality, you'll eventually break teeth, and you won't even know it when you do it.

(brisk work, I'd consider ripping medium hardwoods at two feet a minute for 4/4 to 5/4, and pretty much laying the wood to crosscutting lumber when you're breaking it down - something you can do with one of those 12 tpi 26 inch stanley saws sold at the borg)

[Martin Peek]

I'd recommend a Gyokucho model 372. It's 240mm, which is a useful size for a lot of joinery.
If you want to rip and crosscut boards, I'd recommend a 270mm ryoba, although I don't know which model would be best. Perhaps someone here has experience with the Gyokucho.
I agree with a lot of David's comments. I have many handmade saws, but I never take them into the woods or to a place where I don't have a good work surface or a vise.
N.B.: Similar to American saws, if you hear whipping sounds in the backstroke, the alignment of the cut is off.

[David Weaver]

I'd recommend a Gyokucho model 372. It's 240mm, which is a useful size for a lot of joinery.
If you want to rip and crosscut boards, I'd recommend a 270mm ryoba, although I don't know which model would be best. Perhaps someone here has experience with the Gyokucho.
I agree with a lot of David's comments. I have many handmade saws, but I never take them into the woods or to a place where I don't have a good work surface or a vise.
N.B.: Similar to American saws, if you hear whipping sounds in the backstroke, the alignment of the cut is off.

i have a 270 mm gyochuko - it's a good tough coarse saw that's pretty fast. Lots of set on the rip side, but that can be rectified (or kept as is if preferred).

[Jonathan Gennaro]

In my opinion, and I've tried a bunch of japanese saws except the most expensive fully hand made...well, thanks to stan covington, I got to try a serious fully handmade saw, but they are generally out of my price range given the woods we work and their ability to break teeth (stans saw was a different animal entirely, equivalent in toughness to a western saw but a little harder).

Anyway, here's what I think:
* the saws that the borg carries are OK, but they're floppy. You could use them to see if you hate the saws or like them OK, and if you think they're a bit floppy, know that the machine made saws by gyochuko are a bit stiffer. The semi hand made and hand made saws are hollow ground usually and stiffer yet, some to the point that they're not suitable for a beginner (a bind can lead to a broken plate or toe).
* The z saws are decent, their crosscut saw is good. I broke the teeth off of the dozuki. Woodcraft shows some of the Z saws. I think other than the 240 crosscut (that's marked with an 8) and maybe an @330 saw or something coarse, I'd go gyochuko all the way
* woodcrafts prices, in my opinion, are unacceptable and you can do a lot better. That's a running theme there, it's probably just a consequence of franchising and having to have prices high enough to pay franchising and brick and mortar
* Gyochuko and z saws can be had all over the place on ebay, online other places (toolsfromjapan.com, hida tool, tashirohardware.com)
* the more expensive machine made saws that aren't gyochuko or Z, in my opinion, are sold by retailers who don't want to compete with people who can price low. I have used a couple (one from rockler, and a few from other places - though rockler does carry some Z)....anyway, in my opinion, you go gyochuko, then Z if gyochuko doesn't have what you want and if you can't find what you want there, then go to semi-handmade and handmade. In my opinion, the saws that are $70 or $100 and machine made don't offer you much and are often less durable than gyochuko. The only exception could be a rip dozuki if you want something with true rip teeth, but you are pleasing yourself with a saw like that - in the flow of a project, a saw that cuts a dovetail in 3 strokes instead of 4 doesn't really save you time - that's not where the time really is in cutting dovetails. You'll be pissed when those saws have chipped teeth.

If you don't have anything at all, in my opinion, you want a good combination dozuki, a decent crosscut kataba (a kataba doesn't sand the backside of a cut like a ryoba) and a coarse (270-300mm) and medium or small ryoba (210-240mm)

If the teeth have too much set, lightly stone them with a diamond hone or a sharpening stone, but with care, you can't move them back because they are impulse hardened.

I have broken teeth on every type of saw I've used except gyochuko, they just seem to be a little tougher. That includes the $100 rip dozuki from LV, the Z combination dozuki, some semi-handmade saws, and I could find others if I went downstairs and looked at my pile. I tended to use my japanese saws only in stuff that works in the vise, when it comes to work bigger than that, they can't hang with my western saws (ripping and breaking down hardwoods). For big work where you're breaking down lumber, unless you are a japanese saw fanatic, you'll work faster with inexpensive western saws. The only rip saw that I've tried that could come close was a custom saw that stan covington sent me, and it was close to 4 figures. It was a fabulous saw (really a work of art), but not an everyman device, and I'd have needed two to carry out my ripping and probably still lagged behind western saw speed.

I have never abused a japanese saw, though. You'll find that once you get into swift work in hard wood, if the saw isn't of stan covington's saw's quality, you'll eventually break teeth, and you won't even know it when you do it.

(brisk work, I'd consider ripping medium hardwoods at two feet a minute for 4/4 to 5/4, and pretty much laying the wood to crosscutting lumber when you're breaking it down - something you can do with one of those 12 tpi 26 inch stanley saws sold at the borg)

Wow, thanks for taking the time to write all that out. It helps alot. First, I'm new to handtools. I started with planes, and now I'm moving onto saws. If you saw what I was using now, you'd cringe. I always had my eye on the LN dovetail saw, but from what I've read it seems the Japanese saws was the way to go. I only have one woodworker friend, and he uses these...
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=69152&cat=1,42884,42898&ap=1


From doing alittle research online, and from what Martin said below it seems the 372 is the way to go for fine dovetails..
http://www.hidatool.com/Gyokucho?page=2&product_id=1540

and what about this for the ryoba
http://www.hidatool.com/gyokucho-651-blue-hard-ryoba-double-sided-saw-240mm-8-25

[Jim Matthews]

I read a recommendation from the inestimable David Charlesworth (who may chime in, yet)
and bought the Gyukucho #311 "Sun Child" as an all-around saw.

It's the only Japanese saw I own that still has all its teeth.
(I work mainly in Cherry and Teak.)

http://www.hidatool.com/gyokucho-311-sun-child-saw-all-purpose-240mm-9-5

[Brian Holcombe]

Don't buy a masterpiece until you are very experienced with working with japanese saws.

I use a lot of japanese tools for Bonsai, and I think they are truly masters of shears, blades and chisels. However, I most certainly prefer western saws.

I have a mitsukawa handmade flush cut saw that's nice to use, but I found their ryoba to be a little too precious. Might be ok for cutting paulownia, but it was certainly not happy cutting 10/4 white ash.

[Jonathan Gennaro]

What about these saws Allan recommends?
askwoodman.com/2010/11/25/best-japanese-hand-saws/

Now I'm more confused of just getting a nice set of western saws, or the Japanese style. :confused:

[David Weaver]

Wow, thanks for taking the time to write all that out. It helps alot. First, I'm new to handtools. I started with planes, and now I'm moving onto saws. If you saw what I was using now, you'd cringe. I always had my eye on the LN dovetail saw, but from what I've read it seems the Japanese saws was the way to go. I only have one woodworker friend, and he uses these...
http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=69152&cat=1,42884,42898&ap=1


From doing alittle research online, and from what Martin said below it seems the 372 is the way to go for fine dovetails..
http://www.hidatool.com/Gyokucho?page=2&product_id=1540

and what about this for the ryoba
http://www.hidatool.com/gyokucho-651-blue-hard-ryoba-double-sided-saw-240mm-8-25

Stu's price for a 372 is 2/3rds of hidas.

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=316_333_389&products_id=1116

And yes, the 651 is a good choice for general use.

You can cut dovetails and small tenons (including shoulders) no problem with the 372. Choose 650 (larger teeth) or 651 based on tooth size.

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the details, just get a reasonable start of saws and start sawing wood. Any of them will saw wood no problem.

[Mike Holbrook]

I like Silky folding Japanese saws available at Highland Woodworking and many other places. I originally started using them for tree work but Silky has added a number of saws for woodworking over the years. Silky saws cut extremely fast and are very hard. After many years of use I did finally break the end off one saw, but I really had to work hard to do it. The blades are easily replaced so breaking one is not a big deal. The folding saws are nice if you want to take a saw somewhere and the teeth are out of the way and safe when not in use.

Another way to get Japanese saw teeth is to put a Japanese Turbo Cut saw blade in a bowsaw. Glenn at Wood Joy Tools makes excellent bowsaws at a great price and supplies them with Turbo Cut Japanese blades. There are cross cut, rip and universal tooth patterns available. I love my 400mm WoodJoy saw and use it a great deal. One day I will get the 600 too. These saws can be acquired with both turning and straight cutting blades adding to their versatility. The original bowsaw I bought many years ago was a PITA to use and I hated it. The saws Glenn makes are a whole different animal, easy and fun to use. A bowsaw with a selection of turning, crosscutting and ripping blades may be the most versatile saw available.

[Stanley Covington]

Gyokucho don't feel right to me. For the average guy, the Z saws work well in my experience. Good balance of cost, performance and longevity. The Z saw dozuki are too delicate for quick cutting hardwoods, sadly. With practice, they can be made to work, but you gotta be careful with hardwoods like oak and ash or you will lose or bend teeth. The Z saw rip saw works very well for crosscutting hardwoods. Practice, and careful attention to the saw's motion until you build up muscle memory, is essential. Once you have that, Japanese saws are often superior (but not always).

Western saws are easier to use in hardwoods, and almost never break teeth, but you must learn to sharpen them skillfully to get clean, precise cuts.

I had Nakaya Takijiro make a dozuki for me with teeth designed specifically for cutting tenon shoulders in hardwood. Sweet as a mother's smile for her babe at her breast, but pricey.

Stan

[Brian Holcombe]

They're too precious for me, I find using saws designed for hardwoods in hardwood to be touch and go. I use a delicate hand with my Masakawa saw after having one of them loose teeth in hard maple.

[Brian Ashton]

I'd start with a cheaper variety to begin with. Their teeth can be a bit fragile in inexperienced hands. I.e. not hard to break teeth off when starting a cut in oak and the likes. Lee Valley sells a HSS version that can take a bit more of a beating than the more traditional saws.

Story time:

Years ago I remember a boss who bought his first jap saw after I brought mine in and let him try it... He walked in all proud and we all gathered around and ogled over his new toy... One of the other guys in the shop was all keen to give it a go... At that time we were working mostly in recycled fir from old buildings and so that's what the guy grabbed off the floor and stuck in the vice... Wouldn't ya know it, 5 or so pulls on the saw and he hit a nail. Took 2/3 of the teeth off it before the boss even got to have a go himself. He was spitting venom. It was hard for me not to laugh, I think I would've got belted if I had.

[Frank Drew]

I like them; I don't know what maker's saws I have (I bought them from some carpenters who hand carried them from Japan, and don't read Japanese), but I've mostly been lucky with the teeth and they've given me good service for fine work such as dovetailing, but I only occasionally used the largest of them for rough sawing.

A master carpenter I worked with, who was in his mid-sixties at the time, broke a huge chunk out of one of his very high quality saws one time -- I guess it could have been a flaw in the plate -- so it's not just newbies who have that happen!

[Terry Beadle]

I use the Ikedame Dozuki Saw

from Highland Hardware. The original blade lasted several years before I lost teeth. I bought a replacement blade and it's still going strong after
two years of use with no teeth loss. It's very sharp. I use it for dovetails and tenon work. It's especially good in pine, even in pine with knots but I'm careful
around the knots to go slower. It eats Cherry and Maple no problem.

Just my opinion, but if you practice with it and cut several boards up whilst doing so you should not have any problems.
I like my 18th century reconditioned english dovetail saw but it doesn't cut nearly as quick. Of course, if you go slower with the English dovetail, you have more
chances of taking a sip now and then more often...hoot! If you have a difficult board with grain twisty etc, use the English saw no question. It will plow through the
really tough stuff but then I'd be using a less quality and more tougher saw for that purpose, such as the bow saws used by Tage Frid.

That said, I also have a hand made ryoba and a bargain ryoba. The bargain ryoba cost $35 from Japan Woodworker on a special clearance sale (They no longer carry it.). It works great. Even as good as
the hand made ryoba. It's a blue type blade with rip on one edge and crosscut on the other. I use the crosscut as the rip is really rough rip. There was a break in period with the
bargain ryoba which I'm still going through with the hand made ryoba. That is to say, start slow and keep a steady slower pace until the teeth break in. I guess I could try stoning
the teeth a bit but I'm shy of doing that to a $85 saw with out good reason to push it.

So my recommendation is to start with that Highland Hardware Ikedame Dozuki saw for both dove tailing and precise narrow kurf jointing work as a learner saw. Once you master using that
saw, you may have several years of use before you just get an undeniable itch to buy a Stan Covington selection.

This advice is free and priced right....hoot!

[Matt Lau]

I'd definitely recommend something like a 210 or 240 mm Gyokuchu ryoba as a first saw.
I have the Lee valley Steel Dozuki, and it's also quite nice.
The Silky folding saws are in the trunk for random acts of cutting--not as nice as the LV or Gyokuchu, but not bad.

With Japanese saws, I like to envision a silk line from the very tip of the handle to the blade.
I recommend cutting with a very loose grasp--like handling a violin bow.

While I'm not as experienced as David or Stan, I've never had a Japanese saw break on me (of course, I don't do a ton of breaking down hardwoods).
No problem on ebony fretboards or plywood. My friend chipped couple teeth off my dozuki by hacking at plexiglass however...