Quarter sawn or plain sawn Maple?

[Pat Barry]

I have a silver maple tree in my yard thats going to be taken down. The main trunk is approx 18-22" diameter and is about 8 - 9 ft from the base to the first branch. I have contacted a tree service and they can take it down and leave the main trunk intact as a log and move that to my driveway. I have found a local sawyer who can slab or quarter saw cut it for me in my driveway. The question is, is it going to be the type of wood that is worth the added expense of quarter sawing as opposed to plain sawn. I do want to get a single slab (~ 2" thick) from the center thinking it might make a nice table top. Does anyone have experience with quarter sawn silver maple? Is it the type of wood that has any merit to being quartersawn due to grain patterns? Is this the type of wood better suited to being plainsawn? I'd like to get some help on this decision. Does anyone have any pictures to share that illustrate one approach compared to the other with silver maple?

[Mel Fulks]

It is one of the maples that is sold in the industry as "soft maple".

[Prashun Patel]

Personally, I wouldn't rely on a flatsawn slab through or near the pith. I think you'd do better to cut adjacent qs sections on one side of the pith and then glue them up as a bookmatch.

[Ed Labadie]

IME, Soft Maple is best flatsawn, curly grain is fairly common, shows up best flatsawn.

As has been said, the slab with the pith in it will be a problem child, it'll crack and split for sure.

Ed

[Chris M Pyle]

I prefer riftsawn, then quartersawn then flatsawn for all woods and always in that order.

But if you are just wanting the maximum amount of wood, flatsawn takes the cake.

I'm finding greater dimensional stability in woods riftsawn/quartersawn than any of my flatsawn stock.

If you haven't already, read "Understanding Wood".

[Jim Matthews]

I prefer riftsawn, then quartersawn then flatsawn for all woods and always in that order.

+1 on riftsawn.

Nicest figure I've seen in Soft maples is riftsawn.
Less waste, too.

Pictures, please!

[Pat Barry]

Help me understand. Here is the example image for riftsawn. It looks to be fairly complicated. I didn't ask about this method. How do they line up a log to cut it like that?
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[Pat Barry]

Here is my tree:
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[Chris Padilla]

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A little more information.

[Pat Barry]

So I did some reading, now I feel like I'd hate to mess this up if there is a chance there is nice figure in this wood. Here is what the Wood Database says: "Quilted maple is so named for its resemblance to patchwork patterns seen on fabric quilts. Much like birdseye maple, the figure on quilted maple becomes most pronounced when the board has been flatsawn, which is the opposite of curley maple, which becomes most prominent when quartersawn." Trouble is, they don't give me a clue on whether you can predict which figure, if either, you might find. http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/quilted-maple/

[Pat Barry]

296010

A little more information.
Chris, the descriptions don't match between the figure on the left and the ones on the right. It seems there isn't a standard for describing rift sawn and quarter sawn. Many places seem to interchange them

[Jim Matthews]

It's easy enough to test; flatsaw the first half.

If you're happy with the results, keep going.
If not, you can quarter the second half and have them
either rift or quartersawn.

What does your sawyer say?

They likely know more than any ten of us kibbitzing from the sidelines...

[Pat Barry]

That might be a very good solution Jim. That first cut might also show enough figure to make a decision. I'll have to ask the sawyer. When I last talked to him he was trying to steer me to plain sawn. I thought that was because it was just easier and it was a small job for him

[Yonak Hawkins]

It's really too bad when you have to take down a yard tree like that.

[Mark Kornell]

Help me understand. Here is the example image for riftsawn. It looks to be fairly complicated. I didn't ask about this method. How do they line up a log to cut it like that?
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Pat, this image shows boards all cut quartersawn, not riftsawn. it is a fairly inefficient use of the log.

[Mel Fulks]

The silver maples ,at least around here, tend to put down a web of roots on the surface and then constantly send up rapidly growing forest of shoots. I think lumber is the right use for it.

[Jim Matthews]

I thought that was because it was just easier and it was a small job for him

If he knows your intention, and you're willing to pay a little more for extra time - he may come around.
Half the challenge with something like this is in getting someone to just show up.

I'm keen to see the results of this,
out of pure, voyeur curiosity.

[Pat Barry]

Pat, this image shows boards all cut quartersawn, not riftsawn. it is a fairly inefficient use of the log.
I agree its inefficient and produces lots of wasted wood to boot, but its confusing because the terminology doesn't seem to be standardized or the meanings have changed over the years. See this image:
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or this one for a different perspective
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[Chris Fournier]

If this tree has any figure it will be apparent right under the bark, easy to look for. As far as quarter, slab rift, unless you want musical instrument wood or drawer sides I'd suggest live sawing the log and you'll ge a mix of every thing nice and quickly. An 18" to 22" log turns into very narrow quarters once bark, heart and process are taken into account. Enjoy the process, it's fun.

[Scott T Smith]

Pat, I do this for a living. A few comments.

Usually you can detect highly figured maple by looking at the outside of the log under the bark, or slice through one of the major lower limbs at an angle.

There are several different industry recognized organizations that provide information about quarter and rift sawn lumber. These include the USDA Forestry Products Lab (FPL), the National Hardwood Lumber Association (NHLA), the National Hardwood Flooring Manufacturers Association (NHFMA), and the Architectural Woodworking Institute (AWI).

All of these organizations agree that quartersawn lumber is determined by the angle that the annular growth rings intersect the face of the board. Unfortunately, they don't all agree on exactly what that angle is. Some define it as between 60 - 90 degrees, others define it as between 75 - 90 degrees, and still others define it as 45 - 90 degrees.

In Bruce Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood", he defines quartersawn lumber as that where the growth rings form angles of anywhere from 45 degrees to 90 degrees with the surface, with "rift grain" indicating surfaces intermediate between 45 degrees to 90 degrees. Hoadley also refers to rift sawn lumber as "bastard grain" too. Unfortunately, Hoadley does not provide references to any FLP, NHLA or AWI standards in his book.

The current industry recognized definition of quarter and rift sawn lumber recognized by architects and professional cabinet shops nationwide is published by the AWI. AWI defines quartersawn lumber as having annual growth ring orientation between 60 - 90 degrees relative to the face of the board. AWI defines rift sawn lumber as measured by annular growth ring orientation between 30 - 60 degrees to the face of the board, with 45 degrees being "optimum" (page 449, Appendix B, section 3 Lumber of the 2009 1st edition of Architectural Woodwork Standards with drawing from same posted below).

The best that I have been able to determine is that earliest version of the drawing shared earlier in this thread of rift sawn lumber dates back to a mistake that was made by a manuscript editor of a FPL publication back in the 1930's. FPL corrected the mistake in subsequent versions of the document, but numerous copies of the document had already been released and the misinformation exists to this day.

Pretty much the entire woodworking manufacturers industry adheres to the AWI standard regarding rift and quarter sawn lumber, but there are a few holdouts that still follow the mislabled drawing from the FPL.

fyi Plain sawn lumber is also called "flat sawn".

Maple is typically flat sawn, although QS maple can have some nice ray fleck (although small). Curl does show up well on QS and RS lumber, and quilted shows best on FS. Usually the best spot for a slab is about 1/3 to 2/5 of the way through the log - close to the center but far enough away so that the juvenile wood cells in the pith wood are not incorporated into the slab.

Scott

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[Pat Barry]

Pat, I do this for a living. A few comments.

Usually you can detect highly figured maple by looking at the outside of the log under the bark, or slice through one of the major lower limbs at an angle.

There are several different industry recognized organizations that provide information about quarter and rift sawn lumber. These include the USDA Forestry Products Lab (FPL), the National Hardwood Lumber Association (NHLA), the National Hardwood Flooring Manufacturers Association (NHFMA), and the Architectural Woodworking Institute (AWI).

All of these organizations agree that quartersawn lumber is determined by the angle that the annular growth rings intersect the face of the board. Unfortunately, they don't all agree on exactly what that angle is. Some define it as between 60 - 90 degrees, others define it as between 75 - 90 degrees, and still others define it as 45 - 90 degrees.

In Bruce Hoadley's book "Understanding Wood", he defines quartersawn lumber as that where the growth rings form angles of anywhere from 45 degrees to 90 degrees with the surface, with "rift grain" indicating surfaces intermediate between 45 degrees to 90 degrees. Hoadley also refers to rift sawn lumber as "bastard grain" too. Unfortunately, Hoadley does not provide references to any FLP, NHLA or AWI standards in his book.

The current industry recognized definition of quarter and rift sawn lumber recognized by architects and professional cabinet shops nationwide is published by the AWI. AWI defines quartersawn lumber as having annual growth ring orientation between 60 - 90 degrees relative to the face of the board. AWI defines rift sawn lumber as measured by annular growth ring orientation between 30 - 60 degrees to the face of the board, with 45 degrees being "optimum" (page 449, Appendix B, section 3 Lumber of the 2009 1st edition of Architectural Woodwork Standards with drawing from same posted below).

The best that I have been able to determine is that earliest version of the drawing shared earlier in this thread of rift sawn lumber dates back to a mistake that was made by a manuscript editor of a FPL publication back in the 1930's. FPL corrected the mistake in subsequent versions of the document, but numerous copies of the document had already been released and the misinformation exists to this day.

Pretty much the entire woodworking manufacturers industry adheres to the AWI standard regarding rift and quarter sawn lumber, but there are a few holdouts that still follow the mislabled drawing from the FPL.

fyi Plain sawn lumber is also called "flat sawn".

Maple is typically flat sawn, although QS maple can have some nice ray fleck (although small). Curl does show up well on QS and RS lumber, and quilted shows best on FS. Usually the best spot for a slab is about 1/3 to 2/5 of the way through the log - close to the center but far enough away so that the juvenile wood cells in the pith wood are not incorporated into the slab.

Scott

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Thanks Scott - this is excellent information. It just goes to show again that you can't believe everything you see out there in a google search. I trust your sources of information far more and it makes sense to boot. Thanks again

[Al Launier]

Chris, the descriptions don't match between the figure on the left and the ones on the right. It seems there isn't a standard for describing rift sawn and quarter sawn. Many places seem to interchange them

Observed the same description error. No wonder there is confusion.

[Pat Barry]

Today was the day to get my maple log sliced up finally. I ended up going with the plain slicing method and I think that will be good. I had it cut at 1 1/4 and 2 1/4 inch thick slices (boy those 2 1/4 by 2 ft wide by 7 1/2 ft long boards are heavy. The tree was cut down about a month ago. I now have it all stacked and stickered in my garage. How long will this take to dry? Here is a pic of the slicing process.
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[Jim Becker]

Congrats!

Those slabs are going to take a lot longer to dry in your garage than they would out where there is better airflow to wick away moisture. Figure about a year per inch, but that's not consistent across all species and is also affected by environmentals, such as the air flow I mentioned.

[Prashun Patel]

Congratulations. A rule of thumb is roughly a year per inch. Roughly. I would get a pin moisture meter. They are cheap insurance and a good investment. I am glad i got mine.

[Jon Nuckles]

If you haven't put some kind of sealer on the end grain, I would do so as soon as possible. Paraffin, Anchorseal, or even paint will help minimize loss to end checking.

[Kevin Jenness]

One point for anyone considering this process; yard trees like this often contain foreign objects, from porcelain insulators to bolts to maple taps, so be prepared to pay the sawyer for damaged blades at $25 or so per encounter.

[Pat Barry]

One point for anyone considering this process; yard trees like this often contain foreign objects, from porcelain insulators to bolts to maple taps, so be prepared to pay the sawyer for damaged blades at $25 or so per encounter.
Yeah, the sawyer ran into two nails totally embedded about 3 inches deep and had to sharpen his blade twice, once for each nail.

[Danny Hamsley]

Soft maple dries fast. In my climate, it will air dry to 15% in 90 to 120 days, especially if you use a couple off fans on the stack. You need a lot of air flow on the stack in the first two weeks of drying or you might get sticker stain, which is a big problem in drying maple.

[Pat Barry]

Thanks for the tips guys. What I was thinking that here in Minnesota, 8 deg F this morning, that by stacking it in the garage it would dry some over the winter, then in the summer my garage which is unheated and uninsulated gets pretty warm. Outside the boards will freeze and I won't get much drying if any. I'll look into setting up a fan though, maybe on a timer. Maybe I should tent it and then blow air in and across?