Height of Finial

[Steve Doerr]

I'm going to be making a finial for a HF that is approximately 5 1/2" tall and 9" wide. This will be my first finial and was wondering--Is there a formula that anyone knows of that gives the ratio between the turned item and the finial? Any input or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Steve

[Alan Trout]

The general rule of thumb is no more the than one 3rd the height of the vessel in reality it is 1 to 1.618. The is called the golden mean. Here is a quick definition. http://arthistory.about.com/cs/glossaries/g/g_golden_ratio.htm theory. This is a starting point and all rules are mean to be broken. :)

[Scott Brandstetter]

I am sure there are "rules" as the above poster states. As Alan also states, rules are meant to be broken. I have seen a lot of stunning pieces that break the rules in a lot of ways, the finial included. I would think that if its meant to be a functional piece I may stay closer to the "rules" as opposed to a piece of art, go ahead and break the rules.

Good luck with your turning and by all means show us pictures when finished

[Steve Schlumpf]

I agree with Alan in that the general rule is 1/3 the height of the vessel but what really needs to be taken into consideration is balance. You want the piece to look balanced no matter what size the finial is.

Check out some of John Keeton's work as an example of the 1/3 rule and then check out some of Scott Hackler's work to see how breaking that rule can still work for you!

[Steve Doerr]

Thanks for the replies. I was thinking that it probably would be the golden rule ratio but just wanted to check. I have been looking at different pictures of finials. Steve, I'll definitely checkout John's and Scott's turnings.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Steve - here are the links to their websites.

Scott Hackler (http://www.scotthackler.com/)

John Keeton (http://www.johnkeeton.com/)

Should give you some good ideas about finial size ratios as well as some designs to play with.

[John Keeton]

Just noticed this thread and thought I would chime in. While I am a HUGE proponent of the Fibonacci principles and their application to turning, there are many things that impact the visual appearance of a finial - mass of the form vs. mass of the finial, color, width of the form compared to height, whether the finial is the focal point vs. the form (Drozda's finial box), just to name a few. I do scale drawings of my turnings prior to beginning, and it is much easier to work all of this out on paper. I would encourage you to try that.

Generally, however, I think 2/3 the height of a smaller, horizontal form works well as a starting point to consider, but on a taller vase form, I normally end up with something closer to 1/2 the height as that produces a finial that is one-third the overall size of the turning, including the finial. But, as I noted, there are a lot of factors to consider, not the least of which is what looks good to YOU! I can assure you we will not all agree on design features, and what appeals to one may not appeal to others. An example is Scott's signature finial. It is outside the norm for "rules", and while it doesn't necessarily appeal to me, it looks great on his work. Additionally, Scott does a wonderful job on the execution of the finial - great curves, good proportions and a delicate appearance.

[Wally Dickerman]

The rule of thirds is a good place to start when deciding on proportions in turning. As has been stated there are several ways to use that rule when turning finials. There are other things to consider also. The style and shape of your piece should be part of the planning. The final shouldn't overpower the vessel. My suggestion is to turn several finials (good practice and the rejects can be used in the future) and try them all to see what works best. Some time ago I turned a piece and did several finials. I posted pics (on another site) and asked for opinions. One of the finials came out well ahead of the others. I agreed and used that one.

Most people tend to make their first attempts at doing finials too thick and heavy and often use too many details, Slim, graceful and simple is what you want.

[Steve Doerr]

Steve--thanks for the connections to Scott & John's websites. They have some amazing work and great examples of finials.

John--I first tried a mock up of a finial that was 1/3 the height of the HF and it was just too short. Your suggestion of having the finial height 1/2 the size of the HF was a great suggestion and I think that fits this one much better. I also have really enjoyed your website. What great work. A real inspiration.

Thanks again everyone.
Steve

[Russell Neyman]

I'm an advocate of the Golden Mean ( 1:1.612) too and I don't think you can go wrong with it. But, to clarify, shouldn't this be described as one-third the OVERALL height? So, an 8-inch vessel would have a 4-inch finial, creating a 12-inch piece?

[John Keeton]

Russell, as I indicated, with a taller vase form as you have described I think that works well. On lower forms, sometimes other factors play in.

[Russell Neyman]

I complete agree, John. Discussing bowl design is like eating jello with a single chopstick; almost impossible, but in general terms the Golden Mean is as good a place to start as any. Mostly, my comment was an attempt toclarify the apparent contradiction between the "one third the vessel height" statement and the 1:162 factor.

I really don't think design can be taught, but when a question like "how tall should a finial be" we can offer clues as to where the answer might be found.

[Scott Hackler]

As mentioned, the general rule of thumb is a good "guide"...but I lost my guide at some point! It is good to question the starting point. I printed off a drawing a long time ago that had the outline of a hollow form and a finial. Along with that where dimension guidelines. My drawing (I am pretty certain) says that the finial should not exceed 60% of the vessel width. At least that is what I always used when I started with the Drozda type finials. When I started developing my finial design I moved towards making the finial height the same as the width of the vessel. Usually, because of the bulk of the finial features, this height would not be visually appealing (to most) but by thinning the thing down to 1/16" stem and narrow features.... it just seems to be OK.

So I would say to start at the 1/2 to 2/3 width to height and see what that brings you. And mostly remember that any of us finial makers have "forests" of finials that didn't make the grade. It's good to practice! :)

[Thom Sturgill]

An important point here the Scott alludes to- 'visual weight' affects how the item is perceived.

For example consider two turning of identical size and shape - a bright white finial on a bland turning would stand out more than a dark finial on a visually stunning turning. The white finial would be said to have more 'visual weight' than the dark one even though the physical forms are identical.

Proportions can be shifted to 'compensate' for visual weight. Scott's turning (at least that I've seen) tend to be have more dramatic wood and the finial, being understated, can be larger without the visual weight of the tall finial being an issue. The 'rule of thirds' has an unstated assumption that the visual weights of the components are of equal value. The fact that the rules are not 'fixed' is why this is called 'art' and not 'engineering' or 'science'.

[Dirk Hoogendoorn]

I read these threads and I am blown away by the technical side of this hobby I have. The contribution of some of the posters is amazing and in a way reminds me of John Daley, Tiger Woods, Ernie Ells, some friends of mine and me talking about the golf swing. I would be standing there with my ears buzzing and here now my head is spinning with the depth of insight and detail. In fact so much so that I think I'll just go to my shop and "practice" turning, but I will stop once I like the look of the piece regardless of the "Golden Mean" length relations or any other rule of thumb. Thanks for all your expertise, it makes thought provoking reading.