Decent square

[Sean Troy]

I have two squares I've had around for a long time. I went to square up the fence on the new cross cut sled I'm trying to finish and one square says dead on the other shows 1/16th" off. I guess I could use a decent square around the shop anyway so are there any suggestions for a new one? Thanks, Sean

[Bill Orbine]

The squares are carpenter's square? You can adjust it if you know how to use a ball peen hammer. You do know ho to check a square for accuracy, too? Do You?

[Cary Falk]

Large drafting squares for something like you are doing because hey lay flat. For everything else anything from Woodpecker or a precision square from Incra.
http://www.woodpeck.com/media/capt_0_1281.jpg
http://incra.com/images/measur_square_pic1_zoom.jpghttp://www.woodpeck.com/media/capt_both-in-case.jpghttp://www.woodpeck.com/media/caption_pct18_with_case.jpg

[Art Mann]

It is surprising to me just how bad out of square the framing squares sometimes are at the big box stores. You can hold two of the same model together and they will be different. They are not trustworthy as you have seen. To get a really good and large square, you have to pay a relatively high price (see above). A really good way to check for squareness with a sled is using a set of calipers and the "Five Cut" method. This link offers simple instructions.

http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/five_cut_method_swf.htm

[Dave Kirby]

The squares are carpenter's square? You can adjust it if you know how to use a ball peen hammer. You do know ho to check a square for accuracy, too? Do You?

I'll bite! I would like to hear more on these topics please!

[Sean Troy]

The squares are carpenter's square? You can adjust it if you know how to use a ball peen hammer. You do know ho to check a square for accuracy, too? Do You?

One was a carpenter square and the other an L shaped piece of crap.

[Sean Troy]

It is surprising to me just how bad out of square the framing squares sometimes are at the big box stores. You can hold two of the same model together and they will be different. They are not trustworthy as you have seen. To get a really good and large square, you have to pay a relatively high price (see above). A really good way to check for squareness with a sled is using a set of calipers and the "Five Cut" method. This link offers simple instructions.

http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/five_cut_method_swf.htm

I haven't even got to the Five Cut method which I will do. I'm just trying to square it up as close as I can before hand to temporarily lock it down to do the five cut method.

[Myk Rian]

I'll bite! I would like to hear more on these topics please!
You use a center punch to stretch the metal/corner one way or the other.
If the angle is too small, several punches to the inside, on both sides of the square.
If it is too large of an angle, punches to the outside.

[Bill Orbine]

You use a center punch to stretch the metal/corner one way or the other.
If the angle is too small, several punches to the inside, on both sides of the square.
If it is too large of an angle, punches to the outside.

I've never used the punches before in adjusting my square, but it does seem to be the more common consensus. I've however was taught by old timers years ago (I'm almost an old timer) to peen the corner of the square to adjust "in" or "out" . To adjust "in"... peen outside corner of square. To adjust "out"...peen the inside corner.

[Moses Yoder]

I bought a good quality machinists square, 10 inch, at some place like MSC I think. It was Chinese. I checked it to make sure it is square and use it to check the other squares I use. If you have the money Inca is great but it is not really necessary to spend that much money. If I remember right mine cost about $25.

[Mel Fulks]

It's easy to find the old tapered steel squares at yard sales. Some are pretty accurate as found, when they are off I file them. They used to be sold in more sizes than they are today, I have one 24x 17 and one 24 x18.

[Sean Troy]

If you adjust a square that is off, how do you know your adjusting it to be spot on?

[lowell holmes]

I have a Starrett combination square and also a Lee Valley prevision square. They both are dead on accurate.

[Bill Orbine]

If you adjust a square that is off, how do you know your adjusting it to be spot on?

You keep trying till you have it. Sneak it in. Alternate sides. Give her a moderate blow and check. When you got it, stop it! Now, I suppose you gonna wanna know how to tell is a square is square!?! Drum rollllllllll!

[Peter Quinn]

I have this (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32587&cat=1,42936,42944) one for shop use, I'm pretty happy with it. A few years after I bough it I was clearing out my FIL's house for sale, his father had a friend who worked for Stanley way back when, used to bring him lots of toys. I found three old steel squares in pretty decent condition, one had a full 3/16" plate thickness, all were as accurate as my eyes are capable of recognizing. So look out for those at estate sales. This one is shinier though! To test them you take a piece of plywood with a straight edge, put the short leg to the left parallel to the straight edge, draw a perpendicular line to the reference edge. Then flip the square 180 degrees, start it in the same location relative to the straight edge, draw another line. If these two lines are on top of each other, its square. If they diverge.....not so square. The more they diverge the more out of square it is. Remember most carpenter squares are made to measure square accurately along their outside edge, the inside is more for angles and pitches, to check outside corners you need another square. I can't count how many guys I've seen trying to check an outside corner with a carpenters square. You can try that ball peen hammer thing, I've yet find that a very precise way of adjusting anything. Maybe close enough for framers?

[Andrew Hughes]

One way to check a framing square at the Borg, is grab several or more and take them over to the sheet goods.Check them up to the mdf or plywood stacks.Soon you will find the bad ones and several that agree with each other.Thats how I found mine and it's not perfect but good enough for me.Aj

[Rich Greinert]

Here is one method.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tricks/truing-your-squares

[Bradley Gray]

All you need is a straight edged piece of wood or ply make a mark- reverse the square and check. Cymbal crash.

[Sean Troy]

I will certainly try the truing up method(s). Sounds like another fun project fixing a tool. Thanks all for the great information. Where else could one go and get so much usable information?

[Keith Westfall]

Hard to believe it took 18 post for someone to say: Lay it on a board and draw a line, and then flip it over and see if it lines up. :D

Let us know how you make out...

[Jack Jackson]

I second the Woodpeckers advice - the 1218 I think is probably the most popular size - http://www.woodpeck.com/1281.html

I've got a larger one but they're really nice to use and if they aren't square Woodpeckers will make it right (unless it's one that you can adjust yourself with screws)

[Sean Troy]

Hard to believe it took 18 post for someone to say: Lay it on a board and draw a line, and then flip it over and see if it lines up. :D

Let us know how you make out...

I did that last night after talking to my next door neighbor. Off a 1/16th over 18 inches to the outside it seems. I'm hoping for better.

[Al Launier]

Hard to believe it took 18 post for someone to say: Lay it on a board and draw a line, and then flip it over and see if it lines up. :D

Let us know how you make out...

Ditto! Keep it simple (KISS).

[Sean Troy]

I just went back out to the shop and actually wore my reading glasses this time. The square is 22x16. Doing the method of drawing a line and flipping it over, drawing another line with the start point the same, the long side is actually just under 3/16 off at 22" and the short side seems pretty darn close. That sure seems like a lot to off ?

[Al Launier]

I just went back out to the shop and actually wore my reading glasses this time. The square is 22x16. Doing the method of drawing a line and flipping it over, drawing another line with the start point the same, the long side is actually just under 3/16 off at 22" and the short side seems pretty darn close. That sure seems like a lot to off ?

Flipping the square doubles the error. If the "gap" at 22" is ~3/16", then the square is actually off only 3/32" at 22" as the error is doubled when checked this way. Back to your measurements, if it's off ~3/16" at 22", then it should be off a proportional amount at 16", i.e. ~9/64. So, the square is off ~3/32" @ 22 and, therefore ~ 1/16" @ 16".

[Matthew Hills]

I just went back out to the shop and actually wore my reading glasses this time. The square is 22x16. Doing the method of drawing a line and flipping it over, drawing another line with the start point the same, the long side is actually just under 3/16 off at 22" and the short side seems pretty darn close. That sure seems like a lot to off ?

Weird to have one leg be accurate and the other off, unless there is an angular error and the leg widths taper.

Are the inner edges of the square flat? (i.e., is it stable or does it rock when you reference it against your sheet good?)


Matt

[ken masoumi]

The most accurate and inexpensive square in my opinion is a drafting square, (http://www.modulor.de/en/Drafting-Graphic-Office/Drafting-and-Graphic-Supply/Drafting-Set-squares/Drafting-and-cutting-set-square-Plexiglas.html)I bought one for under$20 from office depot and have used it for squaring up my table saw blade,or check other squares with it ,to my surprise 3 out 7 were out .




http://www.modulor.de/out/pictures/generated/product/1/800_600_85/khdo_1_zeichen-und-schneidedreieck-plexiglas.jpg

[Rod Sheridan]

I haven't even got to the Five Cut method which I will do. I'm just trying to square it up as close as I can before hand to temporarily lock it down to do the five cut method.

Then close is good enough, use whatever square you want, then use the 5 cut method.......Rod.

[Sean Troy]

I tried the truing method mentioned with very little movement towards square. I'm starting to think an 8.00 square just ain't worth it...:confused:

[Art Mann]

All you need is a straight edged piece of wood or ply make a mark- reverse the square and check. Cymbal crash.

To do that, you need to find a flat surface that truly has a straight edge. To determine that, you need a reference straight edge. It is not a good idea to assume a table edge or factory fresh sheet of plywood is all that straight. I bought a precision straight edge and started checking things with a feeler gauge some years ago and it is surprising what looks straight but isn't. It is also surprising to discover that table saw tops are typically not very flat.

[Mark W Pugh]

Can anyone vouch for the accuracy of these? I just need a cheaper version.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32599&cat=1,42936,42941

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32601&cat=1,42936,42941

[Keith Westfall]

I just went back out to the shop and actually wore my reading glasses this time. The square is 22x16. Doing the method of drawing a line and flipping it over, drawing another line with the start point the same, the long side is actually just under 3/16 off at 22" and the short side seems pretty darn close. That sure seems like a lot to off ?

You have to remember that the longer leg will show more error because it's farther from the corner. I would think if you checked the log leg at the same length as the short leg, it would be the same...

But sometimes I'm not allowed to think on my own! :eek:

[Sean Troy]

You have to remember that the longer leg will show more error because it's farther from the corner. I would think if you checked the log leg at the same length as the short leg, it would be the same...

But sometimes I'm not allowed to think on my own! :eek:

It's a moot point now. I tried the ball peen hammer method and had very little luck and now the outside corner an inch up on the short and long leg are not flat any more. It wouldn't move so I kept hammering a little harder each time. For a cheapie square, I sure spent more time on it than I would have thought. I suppose it's still good for drywall.

[Jamie Schmitz]

So I think a better fix is to add a piece of wood to one side. To me this makes a framing square more useful in a wood shop. It is adjustable and it hooks on the edge.
295935

[John Schweikert]

Instead of beating a square with a hammer, try it this way with a hammer and nail punch or center punch: http://www.americanwoodworker.com/blogs/tips/archive/2013/01/29/q-amp-a-truing-a-framing-square.aspx

This method works perfectly. I've trued several squares with success. But banging a hammer directly on the square isn't going to work.

[Curt Harms]

One way to check a framing square at the Borg, is grab several or more and take them over to the sheet goods.Check them up to the mdf or plywood stacks.Soon you will find the bad ones and several that agree with each other.Thats how I found mine and it's not perfect but good enough for me.Aj

That's what I did. Go to a borg with lotsa framer's squares. Grab a handful and find a flat surface. Stand 'em back to back. Keep checking 'til you find two that sit flat with no gaps or overlaps on the vertical surfaces. For them to be off, they'd have to off exactly the same amount and in opposite directions which seem unlikely to me. Something else to consider would be a large plastic drafting triangle to use as a standard to check metal squares. I've had pretty good luck with Empire brand at Home Depot for affordable squares. Lee Valley has a large stainless steel square from Japan that is supposed to be quite accurate.

[Sean Troy]

Instead of beating a square with a hammer, try it this way with a hammer and nail punch or center punch: http://www.americanwoodworker.com/blogs/tips/archive/2013/01/29/q-amp-a-truing-a-framing-square.aspx

This method works perfectly. I've trued several squares with success. But banging a hammer directly on the square isn't going to work.

Tried that way and it did not move at all. I'm telling you, this is the square from He#l.

[Sean Troy]

That's what I did. Go to a borg with lotsa framer's squares. Grab a handful and find a flat surface. Stand 'em back to back. Keep checking 'til you find two that sit flat with no gaps or overlaps on the vertical surfaces. For them to be off, they'd have to off exactly the same amount and in opposite directions which seem unlikely to me. Something else to consider would be a large plastic drafting triangle to use as a standard to check metal squares. I've had pretty good luck with Empire brand at Home Depot for affordable squares. Lee Valley has a large stainless steel square from Japan that is supposed to be quite accurate.

I'll do that when I go to the borg. Thanks, Sean

[Rod Sheridan]

Can anyone vouch for the accuracy of these? I just need a cheaper version.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32599&cat=1,42936,42941

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32601&cat=1,42936,42941

I have the 8 inch steel square, as the description indicates it can be up to 8 thousands of an inch out on the 8 inch model.

It's a great square for woodworking...........Rod.

[lowell holmes]

I have the same square. It is my favorite. I use it more often than my Starret square.

[Dave Cullen]

Can anyone vouch for the accuracy of these? I just need a cheaper version.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32599&cat=1,42936,42941

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32601&cat=1,42936,42941

Specs say .001" per inch, as compared to .001" over the full length for the Woodpeckers version.

[Mike Olson]

Tried that way and it did not move at all. I'm telling you, this is the square from He#l.

Do you perhaps have an aluminum framing square? I have an aluminum and Steel. I gave up on adjusting the aluminum, it seems that the aluminum is too soft so when I made a divot it pooled the metal around the divot without pushing arms one way or another.

[Sean Troy]

Do you perhaps have an aluminum framing square? I have an aluminum and Steel. I gave up on adjusting the aluminum, it seems that the aluminum is too soft so when I made a divot it pooled the metal around the divot without pushing arms one way or another.
No, this one is steel

[Dennis Aspö]

I trust the one piece squares most, speed squares mostly because they are thick and unlikely to bend. I have a framing square I verified against the speed square.

All two piece try squares I have had have gone out of square eventually, now I just consider them junk. I'd rather make my own try-square from wood.

I must keep on and say how much I really like my speed square, I got the metric version and had to order it from the USA because we don't get them over here. It was worth the freight to have it shipped over.

[Jim Matthews]

The plastic drafting triangles get a favorable mention, from time to time.

The Staedler Mars 965 10-45 comes up often.
You could keep it to verify the set up tools.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?184217-Plastic-Triangles

[Sean Troy]

I got the sled's fence to .02 over 88 inches. I purchased a new framers square after checking against others on a flat surface. It got me a lot closer than my original square. The sled is only 24x30 so it will probably only be used to cut 10-12 inch boards so I should be pretty close I'm thinking.

[rick carpenter]

I've trued my framing squares with ball peen hammers and it works. Be careful though if you have to hit too close to an edge that you don't generate a hump. If so, file it down. I also trued my Johnson 8" square inside and out. I made sure the inside and outside of the blade and the tongue were parallel with careful draw filing, then I trued them to 90 degrees and rechecked the parallels. If you file anywhere for adjusting the angles, you don't want to file any more than you can accurately cut, say 1/64". More than that you need the ball peen and center punch and start over.

Check them regularly, and square them again when (not if) necessary.