How to reduce suction on waterstones?

[ian maybury]

I've had lots of airtime and help recently, but here goes again.

It's becoming clear that wider flat backed blades (plane blades, wide western chisels) develop quite a lot of suction on waterstones once they truly are flat (on Shapton professionals in this case) - far more so than hollow backed Japanese chisels. To the point where a double sided tape attached block of wood as a handle is advisable, and even then it's pretty hard work.

Especially on the finer grits, and a bit more so on the 2,000 and 5,000 which seems to have a much harder matrix. The 1,000 and 12,000 for some reason less so. Adding more water makes quite a difference with japanese chisels, but flat backed blades seem to more or less instantly squeegee it off the stone. The problem is not sharpness, the edges produced seem fine.

Guess I'm wondering if there's a fix, or a cause. For example might it be related to the grit of flattening stone? (400g Atoma diamond in this case) Might a nagura help for example, or some detergent in the water? (think i saw something about not using a detergent with Shaptons)

[Winton Applegate]

A bit less downward pressure.
I drag the blade from one end to the other, pivot it about ninety degrees and "drag" it back the length of the stone. Drag rather than keep it in the same position and try to push it back. Maybe that will help. You can do it quite rapidly though it sounds too slow to bother with when explaining.


Nagura
Nope. The ONLY use I have for a nagura, a natural nagura, is as an eraser to remove stubborn black areas from the stone (then rinse) that won't come off / out with just rinsing. I try to avoid constant dressing on the flattening stone to just clean the black stuff off when ever I can.

The nagura slurry wil tend to negate the high polish we are trying to achieve for the fun of it.

I would not use detergent. I find no need for it. May be good when using ark oil stones with water because they are not susceptible to the detergent.

As far as the flattening grit size verses stiction while sharpening. I use my diamond plate 220 diamond or the huge pink ceramic flattening stone with the big slots in it for the coarser stones and leave them at that. For the fine stones, 5000, 8000, 15000 if the stone needs a fair amount of flattening I use the diamond plate to get almost perfect then rub the two closest stones together, say, the 8000 on the15,000 to refine the surfaces. Of course they are BOTH flat when I do this.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I recall David W. commenting many times about the Shapton pro's that the issue can be overcome by technique. Something about faster shorter strokes but I'm sure he'll respond. I have never had the joy of using Shaptons, this issue is not something all water stones have, but it seems to be related to the use of water. When I tried to get away with using my new black ark with water, it had mad suction I mean forget about putting the blade back on it because it ain't gonna work. Then I caved and used oil, not even a hint of stickiness. I'm not saying use oil on the Shapton g-d forbid, just giving an opening for someone to teach us about the properties of water and do the customary highjacking toa SMC sharpening thread...! Yeah! (It's late..)

[Winton Applegate]

Mathew,

Any luck with detergent with the water on the black Ark?
What kind of "oil" ? Would kerosene be enough ? I am thinking it would. I could easily imagine using a bit thicker oil and negating the cutting ability of the stone.

Talking strictly large blade backs now.

[ian maybury]

Ran the search just now that i should have done before posting - this fairly recent thread here seems to cover just about all the bases with contributions from the main men :): http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?218831-Water-stone-stiction-question Thanks gents.

I've been using the Charlesworth/Lie Nielsen type movement (forward and back at right angles to the long dim of the stone, allowing the blade to off by about 1in, then back about 1in in.), and it seems to develop the real grab in the second half of the stroke. Sounds like less pressure and shortening the stroke some more may help… Backing off the pressure could be a big part of it - i've been finding that the water squeegees out in a few strokes.

So far out of fear of loss of flatness i've been flattening and rinsing the the stones under a tap pretty frequently too - maybe letting some more slurry build up will help.

The Lee Valley blade backs are incredibly flat - all four so far have cleaned up all over with only a few minutes on the 1,000 stone.

I got caught tonight with a 50 deg 2 1/4in wide A2 i ordered by accident with the large smoother - the bevel took a lot of grinding to get it back down to 25 deg. Working on the top of the WorkSharp does a nice job when altering chisel bevels, and when only a small amount of material needs to come off a plane bevel. It definitely doesn't have the grunt for this sort of work though - even with an 80 grit diamond disc. It required switching to the belt sander to shift most of the metal, then back to the WS for a clean up. Wasn't sure how it might work out, but the heavier blades fortunately don't build up heat quite so fast and so are not too hard to handle..



ian

[David Weaver]

I recall David W. commenting many times about the Shapton pro's that the issue can be overcome by technique. Something about faster shorter strokes but I'm sure he'll respond.

Yep, shorter strokes. Push the water up the stone with short strokes, each stroke maybe an inch or two long advancing up the stone a quarter inch a stroke and then back. That also helps the iron stay contacted with the stone instead of ending up suspended on water.

The longer you use the stone, the better you'll use them, too. It's like anything, you'll subconsciously gravitate toward what works well.

[David Weaver]

I've been using the Charlesworth/Lie Nielsen type movement (forward and back at right angles to the long dim of the stone, allowing the blade to off by about 1in, then back about 1in in.), and it seems to develop the real grab in the second half of the stroke. Sounds like less pressure and shortening the stroke some more may help… Backing off the pressure could be a big part of it - i've been finding that the water squeegees out in a few strokes.


ian

I don't love having the whole width of the stone overlapped with shaptons. The reason to do that with kings is because they wear hollow so quickly, but shaptons not so much so. Just work the irons with the iron 1 inch or so onto the stone on one side, and then work the other side of the stone. Once you've done a fair bit, lap the stone and check that everything is in flatness.

You'll drive yourself nuts using charlesworth's method without a slurry on a shapton.

[Winton Applegate]

The Lee Valley blade backs are incredibly flat - all four so far have cleaned up all over with only a few minutes on the 1,000 stone.

You said it brother.
I can't tell you how thankful I am that they take the time to get it right.

[Winton Applegate]

This is my first video ever on YouTube. It was a spur of the minute thing. Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer was about to go to bed (she was to be "camera man"), I had decided not to do it yet because I did not know how and besides my woodworking tux had not come back from the cleaners . . .
by the way it looks like I am not wearing pants in the video. I am. Black running shorts.
Then I realized she would be gone all day at work and I had the day off and would be chomping to get this done so here we go . . . no edits . . . no woodworking tux . . . at the end you can see her legs wearing her "jimjams" as they say in England . . . all ready for bed.

The video may take for ever to load or run. I don’t know. I couldn’t figure out how to make it a smaller file on my end. It took thirty minutes to upload to YouTube so that isn’t a good sign. Then I left it for a couple of hours waiting for it to "process". I gave up but decided to click on the address and it played.
All I can say is good luck.

Notes on my technique of dragging the blade the length of the stone, pivoting about 90° and dragging it back up the stone:


Most all of my blade back polishing had been done on Norton USA stones up to 8000 grit. There seems to be more sticktion on a Norton than on this 8000 Shapton I am using in the video.



Besides the higher sticktion that back and forth short movements seems to cause I don’t like pushing the blade up the stone edge first. I prefer dragging the blade along the stone edge trailing. Why ? Pushing the blade edge first is pushing the edge INTO AND AGAINST a pile of grit and so would seem to round and dull the edge. Dragging the blade with the edge trailing would tend to draw the metal to the finest possible nothingness of an edge.



Getting all super into it I would even go so far as to say that even while dragging the blade edge trailing if we have a bunch of slurry squirting out from under the edge even this can round and dub the edge. This is part of my reason for not wanting anything to do with intentional generation of slurry.



In the vid I say “ here we have a polished stone” I meant to say a polished blade.



The majority of the back is not polished. In fact there is another blade sitting there off camera. I could not make it generate enough sticktion to make a realistic video so I had to go get another blade with polish further up the blade.



Finally the rag I wipe the neoprene with is wet and well rung out. There is a trace of dampness all over under that mat to make it stick to the counter.


Here is the video (http://youtu.be/MGutUxC4HiI)

[Derek Cohen]

I've had lots of airtime and help recently, but here goes again.

It's becoming clear that wider flat backed blades (plane blades, wide western chisels) develop quite a lot of suction on waterstones once they truly are flat (on Shapton professionals in this case) - far more so than hollow backed Japanese chisels. To the point where a double sided tape attached block of wood as a handle is advisable, and even then it's pretty hard work.

Especially on the finer grits, and a bit more so on the 2,000 and 5,000 which seems to have a much harder matrix. The 1,000 and 12,000 for some reason less so. Adding more water makes quite a difference with japanese chisels, but flat backed blades seem to more or less instantly squeegee it off the stone. The problem is not sharpness, the edges produced seem fine.

Guess I'm wondering if there's a fix, or a cause. For example might it be related to the grit of flattening stone? (400g Atoma diamond in this case) Might a nagura help for example, or some detergent in the water? (think i saw something about not using a detergent with Shaptons)

Hi Ian

Just add a little liquid soap to the water, and you will be fine. I've used Shapton Pros for many years and never experienced a problem doing so. Without this, stiction is a constant problem, especially with the higher grits, and this is in spite of short strokes, or whatever.

I fine this useful also with the Sigma stones since they load up terrible easily.

The alternative is to use LOTS and LOTS of water. Let them soak for 5 minutes before use. Although Shapton Pros are said to be low-water stones, it was very revealing just how much water Harrison Stanley (the Shapton agent in the USA) uses in his video on side sharpening.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian maybury]

Thank you very much Derek, will try some liquid soap in the water too. Soap rather than detergent (Fairy Liquid is the one we get here) is very mild.

The stones are all being soaked for about 10 minutes before use - without it they seemed to dry quickly no matter how much extra water was sprayed on.

I wouldn't want to paint the wrong picture of the stones - they do an incredible job. I've a feeling that in this situation there's a triple whammy in play, and that my relatively high downward pressure isn't helping either. That's the incredibly flat backs of the Lee Valley BU plane blades, frequent use of the diamond plate which means that the stones themselves are staying really flat, and the relatively hard and non porous nature of the matrix/binder. Everything is fine for a short while until the blade starts to polish. I even had one stick bevel down while still in the honing guide. (it's not strictly necessary, but polishing the bevels is pretty quick, and it tidies up the wire edge after grinding the primary)

The other 'out' is presumably David Charlesworth's ruler trick. I've so far been resisting manfully and holding it in reserve for use if a blade turned out to be badly out of flat - it'd seem a pity otherwise given how good the blade backs are...

ian

[david charlesworth]

Why resist? Stiction on the polishing stone was one of the main reasons for employing the ruler trick in the first place. (for all blades except chisels).

There are many other powerful reasons which I won't bore you with now, but why polish all that metal which is doing no cutting?

Best wishes,
David

[ian maybury]

:) Get thee behind me David! (reaches for the cloves of garlic...)

Only in this case because of a certain cussedness - and the irrational caution that it might throw up some unexpected issue on a bevel up plane. Plus the backs are polishing very easily. Aginst that there's been a few pro/con threads about the ruler trick over the years, but so far nobody seems to have landed a solid punch on it.

The ruler even seems to bring extra benefits in the form of requiring honing of less of the bevel away when re-sharpening to cut away the rounded/worn edge/wear bevel and get back to intersecting facets/planes: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/the_ruler_trick

[Derek Cohen]

The other 'out' is presumably David Charlesworth's ruler trick. I've so far been resisting manfully and holding it in reserve for use if a blade turned out to be badly out of flat - it'd seem a pity otherwise given how good the blade backs are...

Hi Ian

The Ruler Trick (I think David has renamed this) is a much maligned technique - one either loves or hates it. I think it is BRILLIANT! So there!

Having said that, I only use it in specific situations. Unlike Rob Cosman or Chris Schwarz (who are they again..?), I do not use it on bevel down planes. But Rob and Chris love it, there must be something in it for them. On the other hand, I can name others who froth at the mouth at the mention of The Ruler Trick .. it just goes to show that there are many ways to sharpen and just as many arguments for and against.

For me, the RT is terrific for aged blades with unflat backs. I think that David first conceived this technique as a shortcut for such blades.

But most of all, the Ruler Trick is useful for bevel up planes. The micro back bevel removes the wear bevel most effectively, and makes it easy to keep at bay. In the past the wear bevel was the main criticism of these planes, and the RT puts paid to that. Well done David.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matthew N. Masail]

Mathew,

Any luck with detergent with the water on the black Ark?
What kind of "oil" ? Would kerosene be enough ? I am thinking it would. I could easily imagine using a bit thicker oil and negating the cutting ability of the stone.

Talking strictly large blade backs now.

Strictly blade backs - forget about it. no soupy water or window cleaner was even remotely good enough. they were fine with my 'hard' ark but that stone is rather porous.
I quickly understood why they are called oil stones. saying that, I THINK (still in debate) I like a thin non sticky oil better than water anyway. I didn't try kerosene or anything like that, but my impression was that it needed something that lubricates, as water felt kinda 'dry' if that makes sense.

[David Weaver]

Hi Ian
On the other hand, I can name others who froth at the mouth at the mention of The Ruler Trick ..



I can think of only one, but the frothing occurs in copious amounts!

EDIT: I can think of another now, recalling who was offended when I mentioned that most people would get a better edge. Japanese planes for one...lots of dogma in the sharpening of the tools, but performance and speed, a ruler tricked edge with a 2 degree microbevel off of the primary would perform better and sharpen in a third of the time. It's one of the things that keeps me on the western tools (how long does it take to sharpen an iron in the middle of work, accurately, 2 minutes?). Makes me a little nutty to spend 5 minutes refreshing a japanese iron that's taken a lot of wear.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I can think of only one, but the frothing occurs in copious amounts!

EDIT: I can think of another now, recalling who was offended when I mentioned that most people would get a better edge. Japanese planes for one...lots of dogma in the sharpening of the tools, but performance and speed, a ruler tricked edge with a 2 degree microbevel off of the primary would perform better and sharpen in a third of the time. It's one of the things that keeps me on the western tools (how long does it take to sharpen an iron in the middle of work, accurately, 2 minutes?). Makes me a little nutty to spend 5 minutes refreshing a japanese iron that's taken a lot of wear.

I think that is really the point. a craftsman needs a system that they feel comfortable enough with that they will not hesitate at all about sharpening in the middle of work when needed, any hesitation hurts the enjoyment and work flow. I couldn't find it but that there is a post by Konrad Sauer about this very point and why he now uses O1 in his personal planes despite having used just about everything else. he also likes the PMV-11 so far, that's a new post easy to find.

[ian maybury]

Thanks again guys. Just to be clear - i've no ideological hang ups whatsoever, and have found David C's writings always to be thoroughly thought through and spot on. Exceptionally so...

The ruler trick because it's such a labour saver probably triggers the 'there's got to be a catch'/ 'no such thing as a free lunch' perspective we're so often programmed with. For my own edification i'm going to try the various alternatives we've discussed, but will walk on the dark side if needed….

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks again guys. Just to be clear - i've no ideological hang ups whatsoever, and have found David C's writings always to be thoroughly thought through and spot on. Exceptionally so...

The ruler trick because it's such a labour saver probably triggers the 'there's got to be a catch'/ 'no such thing as a free lunch' perspective we're so often programmed with. For my own edification i'm going to try the various alternatives we've discussed, but will walk on the dark side if needed….

It might very well be that I was not using it right, that is only a smidgen on your last stone, but for me the ruler trick produced more work in the long run, it was like purposefully dubbing my blade.

[Evan Patton]

by the way it looks like I am not wearing pants in the video. I am.You have no idea how grateful I for one am for that!


Dragging the blade with the edge trailing would tend to draw the metal to the finest possible nothingness of an edge.
Do you think that the reason for the difference in stiction in the two techniques may be that you're lifting the back of the blade very slightly with your figure-eight-ish movement, ala the ruler trick?

P.S. Great video. Thanks!

[Matthew N. Masail]

This is my first video ever on YouTube. It was a spur of the minute thing. Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer was about to go to bed (she was to be "camera man"), I had decided not to do it yet because I did not know how and besides my woodworking tux had not come back from the cleaners . . .
by the way it looks like I am not wearing pants in the video. I am. Black running shorts.
Then I realized she would be gone all day at work and I had the day off and would be chomping to get this done so here we go . . . no edits . . . no woodworking tux . . . at the end you can see her legs wearing her "jimjams" as they say in England . . . all ready for bed.

The video may take for ever to load or run. I don’t know. I couldn’t figure out how to make it a smaller file on my end. It took thirty minutes to upload to YouTube so that isn’t a good sign. Then I left it for a couple of hours waiting for it to "process". I gave up but decided to click on the address and it played.
All I can say is good luck.

Notes on my technique of dragging the blade the length of the stone, pivoting about 90° and dragging it back up the stone:


Most all of my blade back polishing had been done on Norton USA stones up to 8000 grit. There seems to be more sticktion on a Norton than on this 8000 Shapton I am using in the video.



Besides the higher sticktion that back and forth short movements seems to cause I don’t like pushing the blade up the stone edge first. I prefer dragging the blade along the stone edge trailing. Why ? Pushing the blade edge first is pushing the edge INTO AND AGAINST a pile of grit and so would seem to round and dull the edge. Dragging the blade with the edge trailing would tend to draw the metal to the finest possible nothingness of an edge.



Getting all super into it I would even go so far as to say that even while dragging the blade edge trailing if we have a bunch of slurry squirting out from under the edge even this can round and dub the edge. This is part of my reason for not wanting anything to do with intentional generation of slurry.



In the vid I say “ here we have a polished stone” I meant to say a polished blade.



The majority of the back is not polished. In fact there is another blade sitting there off camera. I could not make it generate enough sticktion to make a realistic video so I had to go get another blade with polish further up the blade.



Finally the rag I wipe the neoprene with is wet and well rung out. There is a trace of dampness all over under that mat to make it stick to the counter.


Here is the video (http://youtu.be/MGutUxC4HiI)

Very well done video Winton! I like your stone holding method, it didn't move at all despite the suction which is pretty awesome (again, the water thing... ). Your method obviously work nicely, I wonder how much pressure you apply? My only other comment is that I think your trying the short stroke method wrong, that is, your moving the blade forward and back instead of sideways, and your working wayyy too much back area for how I would try it.

[ian maybury]

Just found the link to your video now Winton. +1 on how effective the neoprene sheet is. Think I'll try that - I have PVC drawer lining sheet from IKEA which is nice and robust, but it doesn't give much grip and the surface water gets under it and on to the (fortunately stainless steel clad) bench top.

The 'grab' you demonstrated coming on within a few strokes on the stone is very similar to what I've been experiencing. Dead interesting that the different movement changes the situation. I haven't been allowing it to get anything like as dry as the extreme example you demoed - unless very occasionally by accident.

I've a sneaking feeling that it's a lot about relative flatness of the surfaces, and the shape of the leading edge. That when they are dead flat and polished, and when the sharp edge leads that it more or less instantly as earlier shears/squeegees the water out from under the blade. It ends up being a bit of a struggle to maintain a wter film under the blade. I wonder if slightly rounding over the edge/corner of the blade at right angles to the cutting edge on the back face/side that's in contact with the stone so that it didn't shear the water so effectively would/would not mess up the cutting action of blade?.

Lots to play with…

ian

[David Weaver]

I think that is really the point. a craftsman needs a system that they feel comfortable enough with that they will not hesitate at all about sharpening in the middle of work when needed, any hesitation hurts the enjoyment and work flow. I couldn't find it but that there is a post by Konrad Sauer about this very point and why he now uses O1 in his personal planes despite having used just about everything else. he also likes the PMV-11 so far, that's a new post easy to find.

He must be attached to oilstones. You can do the tougher steels (tougher than PM V11) with a diamond plate and 1 micron diamonds as fast as anything else can be honed, but I don't love the way that it fails as it wears. Even though diamonds hone it fast, though, it's slow to grind.

[Matthew N. Masail]

He must be attached to oilstones. You can do the tougher steels (tougher than PM V11) with a diamond plate and 1 micron diamonds as fast as anything else can be honed, but I don't love the way that it fails as it wears. Even though diamonds hone it fast, though, it's slow to grind.

He talks about that too, the way the blade wears. He actually uses Shapton stones. I don't have much experience with that yet, but I've been using a shop made plane with a hock iron today to dimension a block of eucalyptus wood, it was sharpened with oil stones a few days ago and had already seen a little work. I did the whole block from crudly sawn to smooth and the edge just keeps going and going and going and going... I'm sure if I take it out of the plane I'd be surprised just how dull it is, be it still cuts really well a-n-d smooth for an edge that's been used so much.

[Winton Applegate]

Mathew,

From Eratosthenes 300 B.C (http://astronavigationdemystified.com/eratosthenes-proved-that-the-earth-is-not-flat/). to Magellan and Elcano in 1522 A.D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Magellan)
Some times it takes a while for things to sink in.
I wouldn't wait around for the flock to get it together.
Could be a long and tedious ordeal.
I suggest we go to the stones and let these guys . . . well . . . do what ever this is called.

[Winton Applegate]

Things were getting all "Ruler is the only way"
I just hate it when it turns into such a dead horse being beaten once again.
I do not want to start offending Derek or David Charlesworth again. That is AWFUL, AWFUL, AWFUL !

I guess that is what I am trying to say. I am just done with all the unfriendlyness.
and yet I like arguing.

OK so I didn't run the edge parallel to the long dimension of the stone. I see how that would change things. I still won't be using the ruler trick again because of the uneven wear (in the past I would call them trenches but in the sprite of detan(sp) we will call it wear . . .
that the small strokes, near the edge , here and there causes to my flat stones.

Trying to gip the blade and move it with the edge parallel to the long dimension of the stone and travel the long direction of the stone while very little of the blade overlaps the stone is even more tedious and tenuous a purchase than before.

Back in the old days when I first heard of the ruler trick I am sure the idea was to move perpendicular to the ruler across the short dimension of the stone and that is what I am particularly railing against. In fact I looked it up incase I have have been, shame for shame, wrong all these many years,. See photos.

(to the people here from the old posts doesn't it seams like centuries that we have been refighting this battle ?).

Enjoy the new version if you must.

Now I think I am conflabergasting two techniques. I think the ruler trick, sorry, The Ruler Trick, could be better at producing a flat facet if run the length of the ruler rather than perpendicular to it. But again I don't need to use it in any form.

Trying to keep slurry off the stone rather than use it to stick the ruler down with, and putting enough water on the stone, thus floating the ruler all lead to

FOR ME

a senario where the ruler slips around and off the stone. Which ever direction I choose to flail the blade.

I think David really has a great handle on this sharpening fast thing.

How ever Ha, ha,
then I read something that is the opposite of what I have found to be true. Like the short strokes is less stiction. There are a few others that don't come immediately to mind.

As we keep saying over and over YMMV.
But I don't see why they should.

PS: how much pressure am I applying. Medium. My fingers are crunched up pretty good but I ain't farting. The pop off valve signifies maximum torque setting or in this case downward force.

[ian maybury]

I suspect that when experienced people that are clearly getting good results report differing findings it's because (as David has said before) potentially small variations in technique are making a difference.

It's a perennial problem when trying to get control of processes in manufacturing. There's inevitably some magician who has evolved a ritual that works, and he'll always have an explanation why it does - but when push comes to shove it inevitably turns out that he was wrong on the rationale. Probably also that there are lots of unmentioned variables that make a big difference, but that are assumed/not discussed in the ritual. It can take a lot of experimentation to figure out what the story really is, and convert it into a form capable of transmission to others so that they can do it.

It gets quite mystical. There clearly are people that have a 'knack' for finding these routines, that are drawn straight to solutions...

On using Shapton professionals with a dash of soap in the water. This is an instruction sheet apparently translated from the Japanese from a German distributor (Dieter Schmid Tools) http://www.fine-tools.com/G-shapton.html - it suggests right down at the bottom that detergents (which may not have the same effect as a soap) can do damage (soften the matrix?) as can soaking for too long in water. In practice they may not be quite as sensitive as that - but it's definitely one to bear in mind and to go cautiously ...

ian

[Kees Heiden]

Hey I find myself in complete agreement with Winton! No use for a ruler trick in my shop either. Stiction isn't much of an issue on my Naniwa 8000. I have no trouble removing the wear with the blade flat on the stone. And finding the ruler and trying to stick it down without slipping is just one extra manipulation I could do without. It doesn't even help on vintage tools because the rustpits are too deep anyway.

I could envision how the RT would be usefull on bevelups but I don't use it for my blockplanes either.

[Adam Cruea]

I always just felt that once you got the surfaces fairly flat, they'd stick, so there's really no further point in pounding on the dead horse of flatness there. *shrug*

All I do when I sharpen in run my blade parallel to the long edge maybe for about 1/2". Just enough to knock the burr off the back. Thus far, I've had no issues with sharpness.

[david charlesworth]

Diabolical influence, floating ruler, uneven wear, can't keep track of a ruler.

This list of objections is truly inspired!

David

[Matthew N. Masail]

Diabolical influence, floating ruler, uneven wear, can't keep track of a ruler.

This list of objections is truly inspired!

David

People are different. I doubt the old timers cared what someone else thought or did, as long as it worked for them. anyone who has a system DOWN that works for them long term, I'd call them a master, period.

[Adam Cruea]

Diabolical influence, floating ruler, uneven wear, can't keep track of a ruler.

This list of objections is truly inspired!

David

I can barely keep track of my car keys. I think losing a ruler is an acceptable excuse! :D

[edit]I also seem to have a hard time spelling things correctly these days, too.

[Kees Heiden]

Diabolical influence, floating ruler, uneven wear, can't keep track of a ruler.

This list of objections is truly inspired!

David

Yes, and all that for something I don't need! And it's only for plane blades, not for chisels, so it's half a solution anyway.

[Daniel Rode]

For me, the ruler trick is too easy not to use. The ruler is always laying in the same place, so it's fast, easy and it works.

I have one plane iron that doesn't have a back bevel because I use it for marking. However, I still completely flatten 1/2" of the backs on all my irons. So I *could* skip the ruler trick.

[Winton Applegate]

I guess I am aiming this one over David's bow but toward all the free handers here swearing by the "RT".
Thank you for the acronym by the way; perhaps it will not invoke an appearance of the terrifying apparition such as a full verbalizing of the name of the beast will most surely do.

Just having fun
anyway
I was amused to realize that the freehanders with rulers and the girly man jig users who insist on going ruler free ( I include my self in the latter proud few) . . .
well the two groups are exactly the same
but
at the same time are like matter and antimatter.
so
all is right with the world and in perfect balance.

Ha, ha
the jig dudes insist on no jig ( ruler) when working the back
and
the freehanders insist on using a jig (the ruler) when working the back.

That's Beautiful !
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,

[Kees Heiden]

Huh? I think I start to deviate from you again Wilton. No jig, no ruler overhere.

That's a pitty. It felt so good to be on the same side for once.

[Winton Applegate]

No jig, no ruler overhere.

Can't be done. I would have to SEE that !
Walking without crutches ?
Next you are going to tell me you can swim with out water wings.
or ride a bicycle without training wheels.
Well
I have heard of such things but . . .:eek: :)

[Winton Applegate]

Kees,


That's a pitty. It felt so good to be on the same side for once.

We can rekindle that feeling Kees !
All you have to do is pick up that jig Kees. Just pick it up Kees.
Kees, you know you feel more secure with it than without it. Load that blade in there and feel the precision !

Come on . . . there is no shame in using an air plane to soar with the eagles.

Kees, it is time to let go of good enough and embrace the pinnacle of precision and perfection.
Just pick up that jig
just pick it up . . .

[Kees Heiden]

Learning to fly,that would be something! I've always dreamed about parapenting, soaring up on the winds and convection. But allas, never got around to learn it.

[ian maybury]

Just to report on the methods suggested by Winton and Derek to overcome suction when polishing very flat plane blade backs (such as Lee Valley/Veritas) on finer grit Shapton professionals. (especially the 5000 for some reason, but its been problematical on anything finer than 1000 grit) That's without using the ruler trick. (which clearly works very well - but it just seems a pity not to take advantage of such beautifully flat blade backs) Chisels with their smaller area present no real problem, especially the hollow backed Japanese variety.

I'd been finding that I simply could not push the blade over the stones even with a wood block handle taped on the back - they were locking down almost solid after three or so strokes. With frequent flattening and their low rate of wear the Shaptons stay very flat - which is a major advantage, but possibly also a contributing factor. No amount of water solved the problem.

The likelihood is that there's some minor variation in technique or situation that means that not everybody has been experiencing this. e.g. a not quite perfectly flat blade back, or something else. It may or may not be an issue on other brands of waterstone.

I've been getting really good results using the movements David Charlesworth recommends - what he calls movment 1, and movement 2 in his writing. Both entail progressively working the edge of blade out over the side of the stone, and then back on again. The logic is that they tend to reduce both central hollowing of the stone, and to remove any consequent slight dubbing from the back of the blade. Especially over repeated sharpenings. Which seems a very good idea. But...

Three blades later 'Winton's Weave' ( :) see the video he posted at the start of the thread) definitely works reliably - at least in my scenario. Derek C's advice to use a spritz of liquid soap (not detergent) in the water sprayed on the stones helps greatly too - it reduces the force required to overcome the 'grab' by about one half for me. (actually soaking the stones in slightly soapy water may not be a good idea as there could be some risk of damage - see earlier in the thread)

Using both methods and playing around the key seems to be to keep the leading edge/side of the blade tilted at 30 - 40 deg to its direction of travel. Much like skewing a plane, although movement 1 involves the blade moving side first. My guess is that it results in a bit less less water being sheared off the surface of the stone/drives a film of water under the blade that keeps it lubricated/stops it running dry.

It's possible to still utilise the Charlesworth movements, but with the blade skewed as above and still get the benefit of the reduced suction/stiction.

Thanks guys, that's a nice step forward for me...




Using both fixes

[Stanley Covington]

Mix washing soda or laundry borax (not detergent) in distilled water and use this to wet the stone (tap water contains corrosive chlorine, which accumulates in the pores of the stone). I keep a dishwashing soap bottle containing this solution handy. You need slurry, and if working the the blade doesn't create it, use a nagura to get things started. Continue to drip water on the stone to maintain the slurry at the right consistency so it cuts the blade without developing too much friction. If this doesn't work, get a different stone, because too much suction, if it cannot be controlled, is intolerable. Depending on your blades and sharpening style, some stones will work better than others.

Stan

[ian maybury]

Thanks Stanley - will try both. I have a nagura to try too...