Japanese Stool

[Alan Turner]

These are photographs of a stool I made last weekend. I have been working on the new shop building, and a bit depressed with no interesting commissions on the books at the moment, so my solution was to design and build a piece of furniture which could be produced in multiples without a huge investment of time. Were I to do a show, I wanted a piece that could be sold off the floor, as an impulse type of buy. This stool, and my hearth benches, would fill at least a part of this bill.

The stool is meant to invoke a feeling of a Japanese design. It is 23"t, with the top at 11" by 13" . The legs are 1.75" square at the top and bottom, with a narrow dimension of 7/8", 9" down from the top. The curved legs were pattern shaped with a 3 x 3 Byrd Shelix head. A pix of the setup and pattern is at the bottom. Clean up was with a Boggs spokeshave. The through round tenons on the legs are wedged. The stretchers are half lapped, hand cut. The center stretcher is open doweled with shop made cherry dowels. The angle of the leg splay is 6* off of a 45* angle, in from each top corner.

Walnut and cherry. Shellac to seal, Waterlox Original to finish. Needs 2 more coats. 2 hours of sun on the cherry, but no colors added.

I began this project as a mock up, intending to modify the design as needed, but I ended up spending enough time on the design that I was happy with it, and so went ahead and made it as a final.

Comments are invited. I intend to offer this stool for sale, and would be pleased to learn the thoughts of the members of SMC as to a fair price.

Thanks for looking.

[John Hart]

I really like your design and choice of wood Alan. Beautiful piece indeed. I'm a sucker for Japanese style. Price? I think that would depend on the venue. $125-$200 is my guess.

[Gord Graff]

Hi Alan,

I’ve always strayed away from offering suggestions on the pieces that others have made simply because my opinions could be taken the wrong way. With that said, I’d like to suggest to you that you “lighten” the seat by means of relieving the underside of the seat or by scooping out the top side of the seat. Just a suggestion.

As far as a selling price is concerned, it really depends on where the piece will be sold but I think you have a winner there.

All the best
Gord

[Jim Becker]

You're welcome to "accidentally" leave that at my house, Alan... ;)

Seriously, that's a really nice design. I like it a lot.

[Mark Singer]

Alan,

Very nice piece! Nice joinery as well.

[Sam Blasco]

Nice lines, Alan. For pricing, that is so subjective, but a good place to start is price ot (materials x 15%) + your man hours (what's your time worth?). See what happens.

[Earl Kelly]

Alan, Stool looks good. The only thing that bothers me is the flat and square seat on top of the nice curvy legs. I don't know exactly what I would do, I like Gord's suggestion of shaping the seat, but that raises the time expenditure quite a bit. I know you'll do fine with whatever you develop and produce.

I would think, in your neck of the woods you could get $200-$350 retail.

[Alan Turner]

Gord,

I gave thought to that concept of putting a radius on the seat, and if so, I think I would do it on the top side. It would lighten it visually, which is not a bad thing. I also may norrow the seat a bit, perhpas bringing it to 9" x 13".

When I first built this, the seal was a full 1 7/8" thick. That was really heavy, and so when I resawed it down to about 1 3/16", which I think is where it is now, the difference was so striking that I thought I had it about right. But your comment makes me want to rethink that.

I note that this particular unit will not be for sale as the legs are not rift cut, which is a feature that I think is required for leg stock of this character. Also, the joinery on the half laps is a bit sloppy, which I will cure in a multiples run by jigging a router for the main stock removal on the legs to be sure that the stretcher does not have to twist when fitted, and that the joint is tight.

Jim,
You are close enough that if you would like to come down and shape a couple of legs, let me know and I let you test drive the set up. Pattern shaping is a piece of cake if the pattern is correct. The Byrd head goes against the grain pretty well if you are not taking more than an eighth off. On this Cherry I got zero tear out, and did not have to flip the head to reverse direction, which would be a huge PITA unless I were doing about 100 legs or so, but when I say a multiples run, I have in mind 5 or 10 stools.

In terms of pricing, I will wait for more feedback. On a commission piece, it is a T&M calculation, based upon an estimate, which would include design time, but on this guy, I will write off the design time by amortizing it over a large number of pieces. I am guessing that I have made over 40 of the hearth benches.
I think in weekend of 2 long days, I could make 10 of these if the material were on hand by Sat. at about 4 a.m. Should be about $35 or so of materials. Other materials would change that equation. An olive seat with Bolivian Rosewood legs would push it to about $70 or so. I have a bunch of both on hand. Another possability wold be birch base with a padauk top, at maybe aobut $45 or so, and both of these are on hand also. Did I mention I am a wood collector? Just love estate sales.

I don't think that curving the seat would add a lot of time. I would execute this with a resaw cut since I don't happen to have a 20" circular saw. I would then smooth with the Boggs shave, and finish with a foam backed ROS, or possibly a right angle grinder, both of which I have, although I have never used the grinder (another estate sale item, which is why I have it but have not yet used it).

[Rick de Roque]

love the stool.
rick

[Jon Olson]

Nice project, I agree with Gord...needs the seat lightened with a sweeping curve. I love the through tenons with the wedges. VEry nice touch. I'd probably buy one on impulse.

Jon

[Bob Marino]

Alan,

Wonderfull looking piece, but I also think scooping out the seat a bit would work out visually as well as ergonomically.

Bob

[Mark Singer]

Alan if you are going to cove the seat here are some barstools I coved using the tablesaw

[Roy Wall]

Alan - $295 each, set of 4 -$999 A fair price for craftsmanship. Nice.

Mark - those were comfortable stools...:)

[Jamie Buxton]

Alan --
Try sitting on the stool to see whether it is comfortable. Here's my guess, based on making a bunch of stools....
Because the seat is 24" high, you won't be able to sit flat on the seat with your feet touching the floor. That is, you'll either sit near the edge of the seat so your feet can touch the floor, or you'll sit squarely on the seat with your feet sitting on the rungs. If you sit on the edge of the seat, the square edge on it will will an uncomfortable pressure line across the backs of your thighs. If you sit squarely on the seat top, the rungs may be a bit too low for comfort.
How's my guess?

Jamie

[Pete Lamberty]

HI Allen, this is a very nice piece. I would be tempted to buy one on an impulse. I have no idea on pricing other than what the others have said. I do like the suggestion that Gord gave. I think scooping out the top like in Marks stools would help the look. One thing that visually bothers me is the through round tenons. I think that they should be through SQUARE tenons. I think that square ones would be more in keeping with the look of the rest of the stool. But this might add more time to the making of this piece.

[Jim Becker]

Alan, I will certainly take you up on your offer to do some pattern shaping at your place...I'd like to make one or two of these stools. I also plan on making the other table with the "Turner" cabriole legs with the pattern you gave me on my recent visit. I'm not big on the more traditional style, but would feel very comfortable with your design coexisting with my Shaker and Nakashima style stuff I've already built.

Oh, the radiusing that Mark shows is what I was thinking too...and it ties into the leg design beautifully for a unified look...and more seating comfort.

[Mark Singer]

The rungs should be lower is my guess

Alan --
Try sitting on the stool to see whether it is comfortable. Here's my guess, based on making a bunch of stools....
Because the seat is 24" high, you won't be able to sit flat on the seat with your feet touching the floor. That is, you'll either sit near the edge of the seat so your feet can touch the floor, or you'll sit squarely on the seat with your feet sitting on the rungs. If you sit on the edge of the seat, the square edge on it will will an uncomfortable pressure line across the backs of your thighs. If you sit squarely on the seat top, the rungs may be a bit too low for comfort.
How's my guess?

Jamie

[Russ Filtz]

Nice! I agree that something may need to be done to the seat. I think some simple curves to the sides (looking from the top, plan view) would work. The curves would accent the leg curves. You could curve just the two long sides, or do all four. To help with the side view "heaviness", perhaps a simple chamfer cut top and/or bottom with a router would do. These additions would stay with the simple/elegant lines of Japanese style. I think carving out a "butt print" into the seat wouldn't stay with the style, and as stated would be more costly to produce.

[Jason Tuinstra]

Alan, I'm indifferent on the seat. Either way, would be fine with me. As is, it's a nice clean look. But that's just my eyes talking, not my gluteus maximus. The wood choice is very pleasing as well - nothing better to me than walnut and cherry.

Price: Just put "Thos. Moser" underneath and charge a grand :p Kidding, just kidding!

[lou sansone]

Hi alan

great work and nice design as well. How is the comfort level of the stool? As far as price goes, I would think that you should be able to get at least 150 each. That should net you about 70 per hour of your time if you can really crank out 10 in 16 hours.

best wishes
lou

[Richard Wolf]

Nice stool Alan, I agree with most about craving out the seat. I think a couple of passes with a scorp while not over doing it and maybe even leaving ridges from the scorp on the seat. It will add a rustic look (hand made)and add some individualality to each piece.
I agree with Lou about keeping the price low while still making money, with your name and # burned in the bottom of the seat you will never be far from your customers mind. If you could knock them out for $200 you may not be able to keep up with demand.

Richard

[Mark Singer]

Moser is cutting their seats on a CNC machine!
Alan, I'm indifferent on the seat. Either way, would be fine with me. As is, it's a nice clean look. But that's just my eyes talking, not my gluteus maximus. The wood choice is very pleasing as well - nothing better to me than walnut and cherry.

Price: Just put "Thos. Moser" underneath and charge a grand :p Kidding, just kidding!

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Alan, I'm indifferent on the seat. Either way, would be fine with me. As is, it's a nice clean look. But that's just my eyes talking, not my gluteus maximus. The wood choice is very pleasing as well - nothing better to me than walnut and cherry.

Price: Just put "Thos. Moser" underneath and charge a grand :p Kidding, just kidding!

Hey Jason, I didn't know a gluteus maximus could talk unless you're Jim Carrey in disguise. :) Any other GM talking I'm reluctant to discuss on this forum.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Alan, I really like the overall look of the stool and the joinery. Very nice curves and design. How did you make the round tenons on the top of the legs? The other Alan

[John Shuk]

Nice Alan. I have to say I'd like to see the seat shaped as well. I like the cove Mark did on his. I think it would work nicely. Great design.
John

[Jason Tuinstra]

Hey Jason, I didn't know a gluteus maximus could talk unless you're Jim Carrey in disguise. :) Any other GM talking I'm reluctant to discuss on this forum.

Hey now... :D :p You knew what I meant. :)

[Greg Torok]

I think the stools look great. I like the leg design, plenty of mass - but still retains a light look....I do have a couple of ergonomic suggestions.

I built the stools in the link below (a take of a David Marks design) several months ago (I had some chunks of oak to use up, the seat faces are QS):
http://www.gregtorok.com/images/stool.jpg

They are about 24-25" tall with the seat being about 16" x 13". The seat is 1 3/4" thick, as are the base of the legs. The legs and footrests are 1" at the narrow points. After sitting on them for the last few months, I like the rounded edge around the seat for leg comfort (this point was already mentioned). Also, I'd try to incorporate the foot rest around the perimeter. Sometimes you sit across the corner, or maybe don't want to your legs that close together. (although that would change the look quite a bit).

[Alan Turner]

Alan,
That tenon is cut with the drill press table flipped to a vertical orientation. Use a jig to square the leg stock to the quill travel and cut it with a tenon cutter on a slow speed. these were 1" dia. Sort of like a giant plug cutter. The shoulder line is then scored by hand, cut with a hand saw, and the tenon carved with an incanel carving gouge. Pretty quick operation, all in all. Make sure your forstner bit is well matched to your tenon cutter for a snug fit. The mortise for the wedge is marked at assembly, cut with a rip saw by hand. Use a 5* wedge, driven hime solidly. Move quick if you use yellow glue.

-- I am still thinking about seat modifications.

-- The stretcher height is 9", and with my fee on it, mu knees still fit under the workbench quite nicely. Thus, a good height.

-- Perhaps there should be two more side stretchers, but here I will yield to appearance, and I think the center stretcher is more attractive.

-- When I built this stool, another theought I had was to pad the seat, and cover with deerskin. We have a bit of a supply of it, although I don't know its availability or price generally. I could do a dozen or so with what is on hand.

-- As to the sales price, I am thinking about $300 or so, and a bit more if exotics are used. taht would be w/o leather, which would add ot the time/cost.

-- The seat edges need to be more rounded. It is not a look I like, but here I will need to yield to comfort, or put on a bit of padding.

I appreciate the comments of all who posted. This is a great sounding board filled with people of experience and good judgment. Thanks much to those who posted.

[Jim W. White]

And I really like the contrasting woods. The splined through-tenons look very sharp!

...Jim W