A Bad Beer Thread

[Stephen Tashiro]

It's easy to think of beers that I like, but, thinking about beers that I don't like, there are many..

Beers that I don't want to drink:

There's Panda beer, the sweet (yeech!) beer from China.
There are all sorts of Belgian beers that have fruit flavors in them.t
There is the horrible Shiner beer that has the "hint of red grapefruit" in it.

Beers that I wouldn't refuse to drink, but don't buy:

The wheat based beers.
The beer that comes in a bottle that looks like a Red Strip Ale bottle, but it isn't Red Stripe Ale. It's ofen on sale cheap.
Pasteurized-for-export versions of Guinness.

[David Helm]

My small town has five microbreweries. I essentially only drink beers from them. Currently my favorite is IPA, but I also love stouts, and scotch ales and bitters. Can't abide any of the national beer brands with artificial carbonation.

[Jason Roehl]

Of all the beers I've drunk over the years (and it's been many), I've had exactly one that I couldn't finish because it was just awful. It was a blueberry beer.

For a long time, I was a beer snob--I wouldn't touch any of the big-batch U.S. beers, especially the Light/Lite versions. But, I have a couple friends who only drink those things for the most part, so if I'm hanging out with them and there's nothing darker available, I'll drink their canned water.

FYI, David, even microbrews are usually "artificially carbonated", unless they're cask-conditioned, which means they're aged in a sealed barrel with no airlock. Most beer that's produced is fermented in tanks that allow the carbon dioxide to vent, then when it's kegged, the headspace is pressurized with carbon dioxide gas. It's not the carbonation that makes mass-produced U.S. beers low quality, it's all the adjuncts--rice, gelatin and the like to clarify it or boost the alcohol content without raising the calorie count.

[Shawn Pixley]

Beers i tried and will not drink:

Pyramid Scotch Ale
Hair of the Dog (incredibly strong)
any big brand American Lager
most IPA's (I just don't like the style)
Russian Ales

what I do like:

Northern English Brown ales (preferably Samuel Smith's Nut Brown Ale)
Irish Ales
Trappist Ales
Wit's
German or Czech Pilsners
Martzen's
Guinness!!!!!!
Boddingtons
Fullers
Bass
Dark english porters
Japanese Lagers (Kirin)
many styles of the microbrew genre
I could go on...

I've been homebrewing since 1984. I can do other styles, but usually make a Czech Lager, a Stout, a Wit, and a Northern english Brown Ale. All whole grain.

[Jason Roehl]

Shawn, you just need the right gateway IPA. I used to dislike IPAs as well, but then I had just the right one...now I'll drink just about any.

I will say that I don't care for the bourbon-barrel aged beers. I like bourbon, but the two together just doesn't do it for me.

I'm real close to making the jump to all-grain brewing, and I'll probably just do the brew-in-a-bag method, at least to start. Been doing kits for 10+ years, but have started to do more since I installed a dual-tap kegerator almost 2 years ago and ditched bottling. I hated bottling (specifically, washing and sanitizing the bottles), so I didn't brew much.

[Matt Day]

I really like wheat beers/hefeweizens. I got over the whole stereotype that only girls drink lighter and wheat beers. I like it, therefore I drink it.

I really don't like hoppy beers and Beers served in Chinese food places. And blueberry beers - terrible idea!

[curtis rosche]

I get to try a bunch of local beers on the east coast when I go out for work. I had a Mango beer somewhere in Pittsburg that was pretty gross

[David Weaver]

If any beer has the word light (in any spelling) or any fruit in it, I'm out.

I pretty much drink yuengling lager, guinness and sam adams if neither of the first two are available.

[John Coloccia]

In my humble opinion, IPA is a pox on the beer market. There are some liquor stores these days that have practically nothing but Bud, Miller and various IPAs. Meh.

I prefer a good, dark, meaty beer.

[Judson Green]

Yep those blueberry beer are just plain awful. Generally I don't care much for any flavored beers, haven't drunk a coriander flavored beer in a while either like Blue Moon.

Had a smoked beer (I think the hops or wort was smoke dried) that while being a interesting and complex beer was not IMO a drinking beer, I shared the 16oz bottle and didn't go back for more.

Edit: And coffee beers. What's up with that? Is it for drinking in the morning? A hair of the dog thing?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

What makes a good beer is merely subjective.

For years, I drank what ever my wife brought home and I am sure it was what ever was cheapest.

5 years ago, we were gifted with a 10 day trip to New Zealand. A friend and coworker in Christchurch introduced me to Speight's Gold Medal Ale. I am convinced it's a scotch ale. It's not exported to the USA. Then I became a beer snob of sorts even to the point of driving 150 miles to a small microbrewery to fill a case of 6 half gallon growlers with scotch ale and peach hefeweizen. The peach hefeweizen is a favorite of a neighbor's wife.

Now days I drink what ever the wife brings home but make occasional trips to a local microbrewery or my favorite nearby beer bar for a local scotch ale.... River Rat Red brewed by Riverport Brewing, Clarkston, WA.....just across the Snake River.

[David G Baker]

Dos Equis is now my favorite beer. I spent two years in Germany back in the early 60's and learned to love some of their beers. The thing I liked the most about it was the higher alcohol content and the very low carbonation.

[Shawn Pixley]

I'm real close to making the jump to all-grain brewing, and I'll probably just do the brew-in-a-bag method, at least to start. Been doing kits for 10+ years, but have started to do more since I installed a dual-tap kegerator almost 2 years ago and ditched bottling. I hated bottling (specifically, washing and sanitizing the bottles), so I didn't brew much.

Jason,

Stop with the kits and bags!!! Even if you stay with Malt extract, you can make far better beer on your own with a simple grain bill added to the extract in the wort. I hope you are keeping a good log of what you make. PM me and I'll send off some recipes if you like.

[Jim Matthews]

Pilsner derivatives once dominated American breweries.

I'm in Sam Adams country, where "craft" beers get a Disneyfied sheen.
Real craft beers; lagers, ales and stouts may be a little ragged compared to your familiar brews.

I grew up on Schoenling, Hudepohl and Yuengling - it was well into the 1980's before I realized that Pabst wasn't the pinnacle of beer.

Even Molson's seemed exotic to me...

[Jason Roehl]

Yep those blueberry beer are just plain awful. Generally I don't care much for any flavored beers, haven't drunk a coriander flavored beer in a while either like Blue Moon.

Had a smoked beer (I think the hops or wort was smoke dried) that while being a interesting and complex beer was not IMO a drinking beer, I shared the 16oz bottle and didn't go back for more.

Edit: And coffee beers. What's up with that? Is it for drinking in the morning? A hair of the dog thing?

Coffee goes very well with dark beers--some dark beers even have hints of a coffee flavor without any added, which is how I suspect the practice started. In fact, just yesterday I added some freshly ground coffee to a dark porter I was brewing.


Jason,

Stop with the kits and bags!!! Even if you stay with Malt extract, you can make far better beer on your own with a simple grain bill added to the extract in the wort. I hope you are keeping a good log of what you make. PM me and I'll send off some recipes if you like.

Shawn, I think you're a bit confused on the terms. The kits I've been using come with unhopped Liquid Malt Extract and typically a pound or two of crushed grains, then a few ounces of hops. Heat water, steep the grains, dissolve the LME, boil, add hops, boil, add more hops, cool, pitch the yeast, etc. I'm wanting to switch to all grain, using the brew-in-a-bag method, which skips the sparging/mash tun setup, and uses a nylon mesh bag for the grains. I have a friend who swears by the method. Google it. The BIAB method will keep me alive, since I just ordered a new, heavy-duty, 10-gallon brew pot last night (~$175). I don't think I could get the rest of a sparging setup past my wife at this point and live to tell about it.

[David Weaver]

In my humble opinion, IPA is a pox on the beer market. There are some liquor stores these days that have practically nothing but Bud, Miller and various IPAs. Meh.

I prefer a good, dark, meaty beer.

Ditto that. I also don't drink IPAs. It is almost as if they became like a viral beer about what...10 or 15 years ago? Every trendy household my wife and I went to around here had "IPA" in the coolers, and it was impossible to get a decent beer at a picnic otherwise.

[Justin Ludwig]

Shawn, you just need the right gateway IPA. I used to dislike IPAs as well, but then I had just the right one...now I'll drink just about any.

I will say that I don't care for the bourbon-barrel aged beers. I like bourbon, but the two together just doesn't do it for me.

I'm real close to making the jump to all-grain brewing, and I'll probably just do the brew-in-a-bag method, at least to start. Been doing kits for 10+ years, but have started to do more since I installed a dual-tap kegerator almost 2 years ago and ditched bottling. I hated bottling (specifically, washing and sanitizing the bottles), so I didn't brew much.

Bottling does suck. It's my biggest deterrent in brewing. Have you tasted a wine-barrel aged beer? Prairie Artisan (2 hours from me) the maker of the "Prairie Bomb (http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/30356/94350/)" (which is starting to get national attention) makes a fabulous Wine Barrel Noir (http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/30356/95382/).

I almost became a beer snob when I started to brew, and then I met a couple of guys that were quite "snobbish." I'll drink anything my tongue allows down my gullet.

[Jason Roehl]

I'll drink anything my tongue allows down my gullet.

Yep. That's why I can now drink all those light beers (I don't buy them for myself) when my buddies offer me some. There's just no flavor to be offensive that I can taste.

[George Bokros]

I drink mainly Moosehead, Labatts Blue and Molson Canadian

[John Coloccia]

Ditto that. I also don't drink IPAs. It is almost as if they became like a viral beer about what...10 or 15 years ago? Every trendy household my wife and I went to around here had "IPA" in the coolers, and it was impossible to get a decent beer at a picnic otherwise.

The thing is, I don't even mind a good IPA. It's not my favorite by any means, but it's drinkable. I'm just taken aback that sometimes it's nearly impossible to find anything but IPAs in the cooler. Fortunately, I also have stores nearby that are AMAZING. For example:

http://www.manchesterwineandliquors.com/Beers.html

Here's a list of beers they carry. They're not all in stock all the time, but believe me the selection is better than anything I've ever seen:
http://www.manchesterwineandliquors.com/BEERSAVAILABLE.pdf

[Phil Thien]

I'm actually plenty happy with American lagers.

I really can't stand anything with weird flavoring. Don't want blueberry or pumpkin spice or anything like that in my beer.

I also don't like anything with a real high alcohol content. I recently got something at Whole Foods (wife and I were having a bite to eat) and was startled at the alcohol content. Had to be 15%. I could not drink it.

The people I know that are really into the craft beer scene seem to be on the road to alcoholism, at least from where I'm sitting. I've seen friends stock up on previously-unheard-of-to-me products only to blast through three six-packs over the weekend. Can't see how what they're doing is any different than the guy buying a 24-pack of Milwaukee's Best on Saturday and finishing it off on Sunday (except they're spending a lot more money).

[Jason Roehl]

Yeah, that's a lot of beer, Phil. I can't say I'm on the craft beer "scene", but I just like good beer with lots of flavor. Most days, I'll have a pint, occasionally 2-3, sometimes none.

It's actually pretty tough to get a beer much over about 11%, as the brewing yeast die from the alcohol unless they're specifically bred to handle higher alcohol content. If you're used to American lagers, even a 7% beer would likely taste "boozy" to you.

Beers can be paired with food just like wine. American lagers are so neutral they go with just about anything. But if you have a strong-flavored beer, it's going to go better with a food that is also strong-tasting, but with complementary flavors.

[Judson Green]

Doesn't Wisconsin still rank #1 for binge drinking?

[Phil Thien]

Yeah, that's a lot of beer, Phil. I can't say I'm on the craft beer "scene", but I just like good beer with lots of flavor. Most days, I'll have a pint, occasionally 2-3, sometimes none.

It's actually pretty tough to get a beer much over about 11%, as the brewing yeast die from the alcohol unless they're specifically bred to handle higher alcohol content. If you're used to American lagers, even a 7% beer would likely taste "boozy" to you.

Beers can be paired with food just like wine. American lagers are so neutral they go with just about anything. But if you have a strong-flavored beer, it's going to go better with a food that is also strong-tasting, but with complementary flavors.

Okay excellent points.

But Ratebeer.com's top 50 has plenty of products above 11% (and several above 15%), and only a couple of the site's top 50 are below 8%.

7% or 8% is okay, much above that and I do start to feel like it is too "boozy" (very good word for that, now I'll know what to tell my friends that try to give me the strong stuff).

And in terms of food pairing, that is primarily when I drink beer. I'm out for dinner (steak, pizza, whatever) and I'll get a beer, and I don't want the meal to be about the beer. So you're right, for me, an American lager is really ideal.

The other time I'll drink a beer is after (for example) mowing the lawn or completing a project around the home, and I want something refreshing.

So maybe it is the times I'm consuming that dictate my preferences.

[Phil Thien]

Doesn't Wisconsin still rank #1 for binge drinking?

Pretty sure you're correct.

[Richard N Elliott]

I never met a beer I didn't like! And I've met a lot!

Hi-ebber, and day is always a hi-ebber, I do prefer Porters and Stouts and "fruity" beers and IPA's are at the bottom of my list...

Soon's I retire, or before if I get a chance, I'm gonna start makin my own.

[Kevin Bourque]

I don't drink anymore, but when I was in college (early 80's) we used to buy Bartell's Beer by the case for $3. If we returned all the bottles they gave us $1 back. I'm not sure if it was the beer that was naturally horrible, or the fact it was sitting around in a Scranton warehouse for 9 years before we bought it that made it taste so bad.

[Stew Hagerty]

I'm not a fan of IPA's in general.

Next to a good pint of Guinness, my favorite beer is Orkney Brewery's Skullsplitter.

[Rick Gibson]

Never found a German beer I didn't like. Good taste, no additives and it's about the same price or slightly cheaper than many or the Canadian beers I would otherwise be drinking.

[Erik Loza]

I never met a beer I didn't like! And I've met a lot!

Hi-ebber, and day is always a hi-ebber, I do prefer Porters and Stouts and "fruity" beers and IPA's are at the bottom of my list...

Soon's I retire, or before if I get a chance, I'm gonna start makin my own.

+1.... There are those I don't care for or would not buy but ask a dozen guys, get a dozen answers.

The only tuly "bad" beer I ever had was back in college, when one of my roommates tried home brewing with a group of his buddies. They were all high on weed 90% of the time, so whatever they brewed tasted like crap no matter the recipe.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Ryan Mooney]

The general dislike of fruit beers is interesting but somewhat unsurprising. There are a lot of really horrible ones out there, I would however encourage folks to keep an open mind on them though. There seem to be more that are actually good nowadays than used to be (lindemans notwithsanding although thier Cuvee Rene Grande Cru is acceptable). As with most things its a sense of balance and appropriateness of amount that makes them work or not. This is true of most of the additives, the product should be enhanced by (smoke, bourbon, etc...) not overwhelmed by it.

Worst beer I ever had was at a sour beer tasting (again like many "styles" sours can be amazingly good or really horrid) and one has enterobacter contamination. That is NOT a flavor you will soon forget (and I've tasted some small amounts in several other beers since now that my taste buds are "sensitized" - enterobacter adds "acetaldehyde, methyl acetate, diacetyl, 2,3-pentanedione and dimethyl sulphide" in various amounts and the flavor profile can be best described as a woody poo like flavor).

Second worst was a cream ale that would have been more accurately described as a "creamed corn ale" the amount of DMS in that beer was overwhelming.


The kits I've been using come with unhopped Liquid Malt Extract and typically a pound or two of crushed grains, then a few ounces of hops. Heat water, steep the grains, dissolve the LME, boil, add hops, boil, add more hops, cool, pitch the yeast, etc. I'm wanting to switch to all grain, using the brew-in-a-bag method, which skips the sparging/mash tun setup, and uses a nylon mesh bag for the grains. I have a friend who swears by the method. Google it. The BIAB method will keep me alive, since I just ordered a new, heavy-duty, 10-gallon brew pot last night (~$175). I don't think I could get the rest of a sparging setup past my wife at this point and live to tell about it.

BIAB works pretty well, you'll get slightly lower extract efficiency than some other methods but at homebrew scale it doesn't matter much. My biggest dislike of it is that its somewhat messier than a mash tun setup (I've been using the 2 gott coolers and a brewpot for ~12 years or so, about 5 I added another hot water heater which allowed me to overlap brews and do 2 all grain batches in about 4 hours.)


7% or 8% is okay, much above that and I do start to feel like it is too "boozy" (very good word for that, now I'll know what to tell my friends that try to give me the strong stuff).

Some of my friends make beer in the 10%+ range that's not boozy at all.. and that's a very risky situation indeed!

[Jim Matthews]

I'm not sure if it was the beer that was naturally horrible, or the fact it was sitting around in a Scranton warehouse for 9 years before we bought it that made it taste so bad.

They were ahead of the trends, "bottle aged" brew.
(Synonymous with "Can't sell this stuff for antifreeze.")

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I don't have access to those fancy craft brews some of you mention. My dislikes are much more towards the cheap end. Busch Light is horrible IMHO, as where any of the Ice beers that were a fad 20 years ago. Having tried a few flavored, I don't know the right term, like fruit and vanilla, I also hate every one I've tried. Beer should taste like beer, there again IMHO.

I don't drink often, but due to a nostalgic whim, I found that I quite like original Coors and Miller High Life,so obviously I have no clue what good beer should taste like.

[Ryan Mooney]

Beer should taste like beer, there again IMHO.

Sure but what does beer taste like? ;)

[Shawn Pixley]

Shawn, I think you're a bit confused on the terms. The kits I've been using come with unhopped Liquid Malt Extract and typically a pound or two of crushed grains, then a few ounces of hops. Heat water, steep the grains, dissolve the LME, boil, add hops, boil, add more hops, cool, pitch the yeast, etc. I'm wanting to switch to all grain, using the brew-in-a-bag method, which skips the sparging/mash tun setup, and uses a nylon mesh bag for the grains. I have a friend who swears by the method. Google it. The BIAB method will keep me alive, since I just ordered a new, heavy-duty, 10-gallon brew pot last night (~$175). I don't think I could get the rest of a sparging setup past my wife at this point and live to tell about it.

No, I wasn't confused. The kit you were using was exactly what I thought. The problem with kits as I see it, you get stale grains, hops, and yeast. But at least it's not a good selection;) If the fresh hops, pellets (I don't care for them, I use fresh leaf hops), and yeasts aren't kept cold, they rapidly deteriorate. Admittedly, I haven't seen many kits. But I am usually asked to coach a newbies' brew when they start down the hybrid / extract process.

I am glad you are moving on. Your approach with the grain bag will work. However, you really don't have good control of the temperature. Ultimately, you'll want that. But I did the bag (Grain Bags, not the brew bags - gag) for some time before going all grain. You can make excellent beer this way but it is harder to be consistent. Consistently good. A slow controlled sparge does make a difference. I hope you have a tap / fitting on the 10 gallon pot to move the liquids. Lifting and moving 80 lbs of hot water gets dicey.

There are four things to think about when making consistent, good beer: Ingredient quality, Sanitation, Record-keeping and Precision. When you sparge an all grain batch, depending upon the freshness and types of the malt and the grind (I try to use within 24 hrs of the grind), the precision of the mash / sparging water will ensure the Maltose is converted by the enzymes to the sugar distribution you are looking for. This can have a marked effect in the beer (when you get it right that is). Depending upon the sugars and the yeast, having control of these can help you to produce the right esters and fusel alcohols in the right proportions. The esters are an incredibly small volume / proportion, yet they are what drive the beers taste profile. As you proceed to become an excellent brewer you may find yourself forced to focus on the Biochemistry. Good beer - control and balance of the esters. Good luck! You are on the right track! Making alcohol is easy, making consistent, good beer is hard.

[Ryan Mooney]

Shaun, IMHO you're being unduly harsh on both kits and BIAB. You aren't wrong on what matters but I think you might be biased by remembrance of sad days past. This is similar to some of the antipathy I see towards dry yeast, yes some (OK most/all) of the dry yeast used to be horrid, but some of the modern stuff is darn good, cheaper than the slurries and actually had a higher cell count. You just have to choose wisely.

Some of the newer kits are actually pretty good.. They're freshly made on demand and shipped out pretty quickly. Better than that dubious can/jar of LME that has been sitting on the shelf for good knows how long anyway (and the cans omg the cans no!!). However they certainly are not a good value proposition as you can buy the individual ingredients somewhat cheaper and even better if you can stock up at all. I wouldn't stock up on LME of course but I do on vacuum sealed DME, it's somewhat cheaper by the 50lb bag and lasts quite well vacuum sealed.

I usually have 100-200 lbs of various base grains and about that much adjunct in stock and keep 5-10lbs of hops in vacuum seal bags in the freezer. Usually buy DME in 50lb sacks and vacuum seal it in 5lb bags for extra O.G. for strong beers or yeast starters. Gamma seal lids are really my best friend.

As far as BIAB, once you've figured the heat loss of your base system you should be able to hit mash temperature just as accurately with the BIAB as you can with any other setup. If you're chasing mash temps you need to sit back and get more comfortable with your calculator and get your strike water temp under control. Mash temp is a pretty easy base temperature/lb/qt with the system loss added in. For BIAB your system loss should be more predictable than with a separate mash tun even as you've already heated the vessel the mash is going into. Remember the profile of the wort is largely set in the first 15m.

Personally I'd work on fermentation temp control next before I got overly stressed about the BIAG issues, unless you decide you just don't like the system for other reasons (which is what I found after a couple of trys long ago).

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Sure but what does beer taste like? ;)

LOL, heck I have no idea!

[Bill Orbine]

Sure but what does beer taste like? ;)

Beer should taste like the one I'm drinking now!:rolleyes:

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The local coop and liquor stores have a huge selection of "craft" brews, and we're blessed in Vermont with a whole lot of smaller breweries.

I will say the one thing I dislike are the super super hoppy beers that have become popular in the small beer scene - things with whacky names touting their "extreme hops" and such - I like a mildly hoppy beer, but it's like there's a contest to see how much you can cram in a beer. One local brew, Heady Topper, doesn't exactly make a selling point of the hop-ness like some of the others I've seen, but people go crazy over it, and I find it basically undrinkable after the first few sips because of how hoppy it is. But I do prefer a more malty beer.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm not overly fond of Christmas Ales or anything that tastes like fruit and/or pine needles.

Course who am I to judge anything?

I've been known to have Nyquil as an after dinner drink! ;) :D

[Justin Ludwig]

Doesn't Wisconsin still rank #1 for binge drinking?

http://www.statetrunktour.com/16/6pack_500.jpg

If not #1 for binging, they're #1 for the biggest 6'er.

[Phil Thien]

First time drunken driving in this state (WI) is also not a criminal offense. I think that is regardless of the BAC.

[Jason Roehl]

Thanks for the info, Shawn. My intended path is to continually improve the tools and process as I am able (financially and mentally), without going for the award-winner--either in setup or product. I've discovered that getting too technical too fast only causes my eyes to glaze over, so I'm following the KISS principle (hence the BIAB). Obviously as I become comfortable with each upgrade, "too complex" becomes a moving target, but I've read enough brewing theory to make my head spin. I understand it, there's just no way I'd be able to keep it all straight while brewing, and having it written down in front of me while brewing would slow me down too much. I want beer, not hopped LME. ;)

What I get now is acceptable beer to me, but I'm open to improvement. I imagine there will be a point of diminishing returns, at which point, I would be content with not going further into major setup or process tweaks. I will confess that my record-keeping has not been more than noting the brew date, primary-secondary transfer date, OG and FG on the instruction sheets that come in the kits. Not all of those still exist, I don't think. I want to be able to enjoy brewing and "get'r'done", without going too OCD (as runs deep in my blood).

I actually just planted two hops plants this year, and there are a couple startup hop farms in the state, including one locally, so I'm hoping for some very fresh hops in the future. At the very least, we have a large deep freezer, a good dehydrator and a vacuum sealer. (That reminds me--I need to check if the handful of hops I do have are ready...)

[Shawn Pixley]

Shaun, IMHO you're being unduly harsh on both kits and BIAB. You aren't wrong on what matters but I think you might be biased by remembrance of sad days past.

I've been brewing since 1984 and win awards to this day. Did anyone ask you to be the brewmaster for a brew pub? (Admittedly I didn't think I was ready for that scale and made a better living doing architecture). I didn't say you couldn't make good beers from grain bags or extract / grain mixes. I did and still can. Others can and do as well. But the limitations of stale or limited choices in a kit is just that, a limitation. You can taste the differences in using say Cascade hops vs say Goldings as the bittering hops even if you get the same IBU's. Most of the new material forms of ingredients like pelleted hops are to address different issues such as convenience or shelf life (not taste). Pellets don't taste as good but are definitely more convenient. With greater exposure to air in pelletizing, some taste is lost. Leaf hops taste better but are much more sensitive to heat and oxygen exposure. They should be refrigerated at all times. Filtering out the various residue from the grain, hops and proteins is not fun and most homebrewers aren't particularly good at it. It shows in the lack of clarity of their beers. For styles such as a Wit, the lack of clarity gets them poor marks in competition. Many home brewers introduce oxygen after fermentation which can create skunky esters in the beer. Dry hopping with pellets is just wrong.

Additionally, If you start with dry yeast you have a much more limited selection of yeasts. Dry yeasts are more shelf-life friendly and they are selected for that attribute, not taste. Moreover, most do not prepare dry yeast properly and end up under-inoculating the wort with yeast. This often produces unpleasant esters. You will taste it in the finished beer.

My point on the bags is that the water temperature in the center of the bag will not be the same as that of the water outside of the bag. This is especially true when you get beyond five gallon batches. Additionally, you are extracting more of the sugars from some grains but not others in the bag, leaching more proteins out that later have to be removed. If / when you swish the bag around (which I have seen many a homebrewer do), your water temperature changes due to exposure to the air. When this happens the enzymes do not produce the sugar profile you are seeking. The enzymes on the crushed (not chopped) malted barley are very temperature sensitive with a range of +/- 2 degrees F between activating different enzymes. One of the results of this lack of temperature control is inconsistency from batch to batch. I have done that in the past and then experienced the differences from batch to batch on the same recipe. When you do things right, and with precision, you gain control of a complicated, multi-variable system.

I am not promoting that people shouldn't home brew, but only that there are ways to enhance the qualities of your brew. There is a step up in the the quality of your brewing process when you go all grain with a proper mash / sparge setup. Getting the mix of sugars that will ferment or non-ferment materially changes the flavor profile. Contrary to other all-grain home brewers, I tend to use more or completely specialty grains rather than simple sugaring grains (2 row or 6 row plain barley). It is more expensive, but I think one can taste the difference. It really isn't that difficult to buy / build a proper sparge set-up for 5-6 gallon batches. Most all the materials store inside the larger vessels. Admittedly, I tend to value high precision in most things. I am also largely a neander in woodworking and I think that extends to brewing. Making alcohol is easy, making "beer" is somewhat hard, making good beer is hard, and making consistent good beer is harder still. But it ultimately is the goal. I offer my advice freely. No one has to take it.

As to the kits, having watched them being assembled at various places, I'll stand by my opinion.

[Mel Fulks]

Shawn and Ryan have given us a civil and interesting exchange on brewing. Next time I taste a beer I don't like I will take
comfort in knowing it was a lot of trouble to someone.

[John Coloccia]

FWIW, I hate fruity drinks myself...despise them. That said, I really don't mind a nice blueberry ale from Maine. It's not anything I'd ever seek out and buy, or even anything I'd ever order at a bar, but if I find one in a cooler at a BBQ when I'm up in New Hampshire, I'll surely try one. :) It's one of those unexpected flavors that really go well together, IMHO.

[daniel lane]

Shawn, you just need the right gateway IPA. I used to dislike IPAs as well, but then I had just the right one...now I'll drink just about any.

Heh. I'm one of those people that says that people who don't like cats just haven't met the right cat, but I can say definitively that isn't true about IPAs. I'm sure that you are correct for most people, Jason, but I wanted to share what I call "a tequila moment" with IPA that has kept me off it forever: When I was in grad school, I volunteered at a local microbrewery - I helped run the bottler and stacked cases, got paid in beer and the ability to order brewing items through them. One day, someone hopped the IPA but didn't record it on the clipboard; sure 'nuff, later someone came buy and hopped it again. Wound up with something like 160+ IBU. Of course, they couldn't sell it, so we all got (corny) kegs of the stuff if we wanted it. I was able to drink about half the keg before I had to give up, and ever since, the grassy/hoppy flavor just puts me off. I'm probably limited to something like 60 IBU, these days. :)


daniel

P.S. "Tequila moment" doesn't mean I got sick drinking too much beer, but the my reaction to hops is the same. I had lots of friends that drank too much tequila and wouldn't touch the stuff for years afterwards, so that's where it came from.

[Ryan Mooney]

One thing for the less beer-nerdy folks to note on this conversation is be careful how deep you decide to go.

Its easy to learn things you didn't know you didn't like until you learn to taste them. Taste is a pretty complex thing and sometimes once you've isolated a flavor its hard to un-taste it. One of the major commercial beers (intentionally unnamed) has a distinctive "green apple" flavor, it was an acquaintances favorite beer until I made an off handed comment about "how do you like that green apple flavor", after that he couldn't untaste it and the beer was basically ruined for him forever :eek: (ok I didn't feel THAT bad about it :rolleyes:).

Having said that, if you ever get a chance to take a sensory perception workshop it is totally worth it just to learn how much you don't know about what you know.


Did anyone ask you to be the brewmaster for a brew pub?

Yes, although I admit I've only brewed on systems above 2bbl a couple of times and only with the resident brewer calling the shots. I can say that you likely made a smart choice in sticking with the day job though.

Most of my freinds outside of work are either currently or previously professional brewers or work in related industries. They are definitely some of the hardest working folks I know and the pay is generally not nearly as good as you might hope for. One head (only) brewer I know at a 7bbl brewpub still does drywall on the side (partially because he needs the extra money, but he also noted that its not nearly as hard of work so its kind of a nice break during the slow season :eek:).

Still a plausible dream? Perhaps, but with a good dose of reality.



Most of the new material forms of ingredients like pelleted hops are to address different issues such as convenience or shelf life (not taste). <snip> With greater exposure to air in pelletizing, some taste is lost. Leaf hops taste better but are much more sensitive to heat and oxygen exposure. They should be refrigerated at all times.

The whole vs pellet discussion is complicated because while you definitely loose some aroma/flavor on pelletization they are more stable over time so depending on how your leaf hops were stored/managed/sourced it can end up either/or depending. Also on the commercial scale you often have to deal with what you can get a contract for (if you can get a contract and aren't begging on the spot market) nowadays. That all largely explains some of the rather shall we say "interesting" beers that have come out in some markets as folks struggle to get somewhat appropriate hops. Living just down the road from Yakima where the majority of the US hop product comes from we're pretty lucky so our club buys in bulk at harvest time and then we divy it up and the store them vacuum sealed and in the freezer. So I completely agree that FRESH and properly stored whole hops are better, but pellets hold a bit better so sometimes the scales can tip a bit in the other direction.

I also like to experiment with some weirder hops (some of the polish ones for instance are interesting) that are only really available in pellets which is too bad since my system works so much better with whole hops (my kettle doesn't whorlpool very well for a couple of reasons and my hopback setup is .. meh).



Filtering out the various residue from the grain, hops and proteins is not fun and most homebrewers aren't particularly good at it. It shows in the lack of clarity of their beers. For styles such as a Wit, the lack of clarity gets them poor marks in competition.

Generally I find the easiest place to combat chill haze is as early as possible in the process. Mostly a vigourous boil and a fast chill are my main weapons (some high protein beers are more intransigent and a bit of irish moss helps there).

If others are having issues some basics on resolving the problem are here: https://byo.com/stories/item/486-conquer-chill-haze.

OTOH unless you're entering competitions its mostly an aesthetic issue so its not something to get overly stressed about for a beginner. Excessive yeast sludge in the bottle is a different issue and one that can/should be fixed though.

I only know a couple of breweries under ~30bbl that actually filter - usually with a centrifugal system, that's a big investment though and most rely on similar techniques to what I do at the home scale (usually once they add a bottling line is when they start filtering - or shortly thereafter once some problems start to show up).

Do you actually run through a pressure filter? That's commitment :D

I'm guessing you also counter pressure fill for bottling?

I also probably wouldn't call out wit as a clear beer ;)
http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style16.php
"The beer will be very cloudy from starch haze and/or yeast, which gives it a milky, whitish-yellow appearance."
I actually intentionally add haze to my wit with the addition of a couple tbsp of bread flour slurry late in the boil (which idea I got from an article on Pierre Celis).



Additionally, If you start with dry yeast you have a much more limited selection of yeasts. Dry yeasts are more shelf-life friendly and they are selected for that attribute, not taste. Moreover, most do not prepare dry yeast properly and end up under-inoculating the wort with yeast.

Agreed its not for all beers and not all dry yeast is recommended. There are some really good dry yeasts out there now though, the fermentis products are generally fantastic and properly used I'm quite convinced that they are just as good as comparable wet yeasts (we've done same wort multiple yeast blind taste tests in my club so I have a reasonable degree of confidence). Can I get a good dry yeast for a Belgian Quad? No.. but I've placed well in large competitions with WB-06 for a wit (its actually one of the cleaner wheat yeasts I've used) and similarly with US-05 for pale ale/IPA (can throw some peach flavor if brewed at the same temp as say 1056 but clean when cooler), S-04 for english milds (although I prefer some of the other english strains for some beers) and surprisingly the W-34/70lager is surprisingly ok for some lagers (never expected to see a viable dry lager yeast at all - it does like a real starter though). Some of the Lallemand products are also good enough to use. I say this having good friends who work at a wet yeast lab who'd probably stab me for being a traitor :D

I've also had the "you should bloom your yeast" argument a number of times (I think the yeast being weak/stressed probably generally counts more against you in that case than absolute cell count but they both contribute). However I'm unsure if its more of a problem than leaving a smack pack in the car or vial though which I've also seen with depressing regularity.

At the very least I encourage folks to keep a couple of dry yeasts on hand as an emergency "omg its been a day with no bubbles" fix - and yes that shouldn't happen either with properly started yeast.. but.. (and as I'm sure you know getting a lot of folks to do starters is more challenging than it should be. I mean heck if they won't take 2 minutes to sprinkle the dry yeast on some warm water with a pinch of Go-Ferm.. and stir it once.. sigh).



My point on the bags is that the water temperature in the center of the bag will not be the same as that of the water outside of the bag. This is especially true when you get beyond five gallon batches. Additionally, you are extracting more of the sugars from some grains but not others in the bag, leaching more proteins out that later have to be removed.

Its been a while but I don't remember it being a LOT harder to stir in and break up the lumps/mix with a bag than in the mash tun. The bag does get in the way a little but you generally have a bit looser mash as well so it seemed to work out mostly (efficiency of course drops from the lower mash density).

I don't have a mash pre-mixer to get a perfect blend into my mash tun although that would be cool :D The point to point variation in mash temp the half dozen mash tuns I've measured with an instant read thermometer was surprising, which is why I mostly rely on doing the math for input water temp to water/grain volume and system loss to point at a target rather than direct read nowadays. It seems to stabilize after 5-6 minutes but without a pre-mixer its hard to get super consistent up front.

Personally I'm pretty sensitive to the tannins pulled out when you over extract, but since BIAB is basically close to batch sparging I wouldn't expect that to be a huge issue (the lower mash density could perhaps contribute a smidge, but above about ~1.8P/1.007G tannin extraction isn't a huge issue since the osmotic pressure is enough to keep it in the husk).

I don't know of a good way to remove a lot of tannins once they're in (gelatin and/or polyclare pull some out, but if its significant they aren't a lot of help)? Mostly I'm just careful to not oversparge which generally keeps the issue below my flavor threshold.

Doing a protein rest would indeed be harder to hit temp on (I don't bother with most beers anyway, but for some styles it does matter). You could remove the proteins after with a protease like brewers clarex/clariferm (white labs sells clariferm) - which would mostly solve the clarity/chill haze problem (interestingly enough its made using the same Aspergillus oryzae that is used to convert rice starch for sake - at one temperature range it produces amalyse that converts starch and at another it produces protease that converts proteins - thus its also used for making soy sauce and traditional miso, amazingly cool stuff).


One of the results of this lack of temperature control is inconsistency from batch to batch.

Yep, that's one of the appealing features of upgrading to something like an eHERMS system. Its one of those "I should take the plunge but.." things :D. I can hit within a degree or so pretty consistently (once stabilized) but its still been a bit of a challenge to do so with a regular mash tun just because of the environmental variance (careful math works but..).

Getting a GOOD thermometer helps a lot - after killing lomls thermapen (it didn't like the moisture DOH! that was an expensive mistake!) I ended up getting one of these: http://thermoworks.com/products/low_cost/rt610b_12+24.html#MoreInfoTab which has a nice long reach and good accuracy/fast read. Although it only specs +-1.8F over its whole range on the website within the mash temp range its a bit tighter and ends up being less than +-0.5F. I have a hard time getting much more accurate than that because of variations in temp throughout the vessel so its been close enough for me.

Unfortunately at the homebrew scale its also hard to get ingredient consistency (especially in the more complex base grains like floor malts, or the english 50-60 crystals, etc.. which are still worth it imho because they're so much more tasty) so I end up with measurable variation from bag-bag (or for things like english crystal lb to lb) of grain (not enough to bother me personally, but I don't do a whole lot of competitions either).



I am not promoting that people shouldn't home brew, but only that there are ways to enhance the qualities of your brew.

I think we're in violent agreement there! I'm more saying that you can still make pretty consistent and quite decent beer with the basic methods, at least for the simpler/more common beers. Will it be award winning? maybe not (although winning contests is at least partially a volume game).

Once they're hooked of course is the time to start working on upgrading the system (its not a slippery slope at all, y'all come on in the water is fine :D).



Contrary to other all-grain home brewers, I tend to use more or completely specialty grains rather than simple sugaring grains (2 row or 6 row plain barley). It is more expensive....

Basically the same theory here, I think this is becoming more common as folks start realizing the difference it makes. At large commercial scale the cost difference can be significant. At the homebrew scale we're generally talking about a few bucks per batch and the quality difference is indeed compelling. Switching from extract to all grain basically makes up the cost difference anyway with the extra bonus of more options :D

We're in a very fortunate time in homebrewing (and pro-brewing for that matter) history with a basically unprecedented availability of a range of high quality ingredients and equipment.

[Richard N Elliott]

Really interesting Ryan! Thanks!

I have in my bucket list the desire to home brew my favorite liquid (Beer, not just a breakfast food anymore :p). As this thread progressed, I decided that rather than brewing batch after batch of this and that, I would concentrate on trying to duplicate (or surpass for my taste) Guinness for a stout and Foster's for a lager. This thread has given me direction! :D

[Ryan Mooney]

:pI would concentrate on trying to duplicate (or surpass for my taste) Guinness for a stout and Foster's for a lager. This thread has given me direction! :D

That's a good strategy to start with because you have fewer variables to worry about.

I might advocate against starting with a lager, they're a lot harder to get right than an ale (and are fussier about temperature control/other details). Maybe a gold or a blonde ale instead (similar light character/body but less difficult to do).

My generic advice to beginners is to:

Watch your sanitation cleanliness matters and is job #1.
Get as good and as fresh of ingredients as you can. If there is a local shop that's decent make friends there, most shops are really friendly and can be really helpful.
Make some easier beers of medium strength: pale ale, mild, stout, porter, blonde (not a lager or a strong beer like a barley wine). Don't get to stressed if it's not exactly like you had hoped at first, that will come with time.
Once you've done a couple compare them to a commercial baseline and see what you like more our less about yours and then start adjusting (it's nice if you have a more experienced friend or can take a sample to the homebrew shop to get ideas on what to adjust next).
Finally in the immortal words of Charlie, don't worry and have a homebrew!

[Joe Mioux]

interesting thread.

to the OP. wheat beers

[Tim Morton]

I've been brewing since 1984 and win awards to this day. Did anyone ask you to be the brewmaster for a brew pub? (Admittedly I didn't think I was ready for that scale and made a better living doing architecture). I didn't say you couldn't make good beers from grain bags or extract / grain mixes. I did and still can. Others can and do as well. But the limitations of stale or limited choices in a kit is just that, a limitation. You can taste the differences in using say Cascade hops vs say Goldings as the bittering hops even if you get the same IBU's. Most of the new material forms of ingredients like pelleted hops are to address different issues such as convenience or shelf life (not taste). Pellets don't taste as good but are definitely more convenient. With greater exposure to air in pelletizing, some taste is lost. Leaf hops taste better but are much more sensitive to heat and oxygen exposure. They should be refrigerated at all times. Filtering out the various residue from the grain, hops and proteins is not fun and most homebrewers aren't particularly good at it. It shows in the lack of clarity of their beers. For styles such as a Wit, the lack of clarity gets them poor marks in competition. Many home brewers introduce oxygen after fermentation which can create skunky esters in the beer. Dry hopping with pellets is just wrong.

Additionally, If you start with dry yeast you have a much more limited selection of yeasts. Dry yeasts are more shelf-life friendly and they are selected for that attribute, not taste. Moreover, most do not prepare dry yeast properly and end up under-inoculating the wort with yeast. This often produces unpleasant esters. You will taste it in the finished beer.

My point on the bags is that the water temperature in the center of the bag will not be the same as that of the water outside of the bag. This is especially true when you get beyond five gallon batches. Additionally, you are extracting more of the sugars from some grains but not others in the bag, leaching more proteins out that later have to be removed. If / when you swish the bag around (which I have seen many a homebrewer do), your water temperature changes due to exposure to the air. When this happens the enzymes do not produce the sugar profile you are seeking. The enzymes on the crushed (not chopped) malted barley are very temperature sensitive with a range of +/- 2 degrees F between activating different enzymes. One of the results of this lack of temperature control is inconsistency from batch to batch. I have done that in the past and then experienced the differences from batch to batch on the same recipe. When you do things right, and with precision, you gain control of a complicated, multi-variable system.

I am not promoting that people shouldn't home brew, but only that there are ways to enhance the qualities of your brew. There is a step up in the the quality of your brewing process when you go all grain with a proper mash / sparge setup. Getting the mix of sugars that will ferment or non-ferment materially changes the flavor profile. Contrary to other all-grain home brewers, I tend to use more or completely specialty grains rather than simple sugaring grains (2 row or 6 row plain barley). It is more expensive, but I think one can taste the difference. It really isn't that difficult to buy / build a proper sparge set-up for 5-6 gallon batches. Most all the materials store inside the larger vessels. Admittedly, I tend to value high precision in most things. I am also largely a neander in woodworking and I think that extends to brewing. Making alcohol is easy, making "beer" is somewhat hard, making good beer is hard, and making consistent good beer is harder still. But it ultimately is the goal. I offer my advice freely. No one has to take it.

As to the kits, having watched them being assembled at various places, I'll stand by my opinion.

Shawn...i have a decent home kegerator, and am loving some of the craft beer selections i have been able to find here in VT. But its a bit of a PIA tracking down good beers, and its a bit more expensive buying than i was hoping it would be. Around $245 for a half barrel...$135 for a 1/4, and $85 for a 1/6 plus a $50 deposit on the keg.

So being the diy type i have been toying with the idea of brewing and kegging my own beer and I was wondering if you would be able to point me in a direction to research and then ultimately purchase supplies.

[Jason Roehl]

Shawn...i have a decent home kegerator, and am loving some of the craft beer selections i have been able to find here in VT. But its a bit of a PIA tracking down good beers, and its a bit more expensive buying than i was hoping it would be. Around $245 for a half barrel...$135 for a 1/4, and $85 for a 1/6 plus a $50 deposit on the keg.

So being the diy type i have been toying with the idea of brewing and kegging my own beer and I was wondering if you would be able to point me in a direction to research and then ultimately purchase supplies.

This isn't to discourage you from embarking on homebrewing, Tim, but you MIGHT save money by homebrewing over buying from a brewery, considering the cost of equipment and ingredients. If you attach almost any value to your time, however, you definitely won't save money. Again, that's not to discourage, just to inform. It's a hobby like any other--you can do it simply and cheaply with so-so results, or you can put a lot of time, effort and money into it with (possibly) much better results. Only you can decide where your enjoyment is maximized on that spectrum.

I can buy a 5-gallon keg of high-quality craft beer from a local brewery for $55 (I supply the keg), or one of their "premium" beers for $65. It's not hard to have $30+ in ingredients for that size of batch if I'm homebrewing. Start to finish, I'd say I probably end up with 6-8 total man-hours into a 5-gallon batch, too. And for a brewing/kegging setup, you're talking over $500 in equipment from startup. That number goes much higher if you want to brew 10-gallon batches or larger, as the equipment gets expensive quickly when you're talking larger volumes.

[Kent A Bathurst]

......... There are all sorts of Belgian beers that have fruit flavors in them..........

Late to the thread.

Hoooo-BOY!! There are some doggone legitimate experts here. Good for you guys - I cannot add any guidance. However:

1] I will never - NEVER - again drink anything with the words "Belgium" and "beer" on the label. God Save Us All from that fruity dreck.
2] Me - I likes IPA - some of it, some of it not. Depends.
3] Interesting read. Very. Nice work, comrades.
4] Gimme a heads up when we get to a thread on Italian Super-Tuscan wine. I'll be ready to rock 'n' roll.


OH - BTW - The 3 - 4 trips I have made to Great Britain................man-o-man-o-man. The stuff they pull in the pubs is unparalleled in my many decades gulping beer/ale/lager/bitters - whatever you want to call it. Nothing even close to comparable here in the Colonies. Worth the plane fare just for a week of time in legitimate pubs.

Regards,

Kent

[Tim Morton]

Not sure i can see $500 in start up since i already have the kegerator. I know i will probably need a new coupler, unless the corny kegs for for home brew have a sankey coupler on them?

I know there will be brewing and cleaning equipment to buy, and the labor is fine...i think i can dedicate a weekend or two every couple of months to making beer, and i have a basement that is relatively cool and somewhat what temperature stable.

[Vince Shriver]

While serving at DaNang Air Base ('66-67), whoever was in charge of buying beer ordered a huge quantity of "rice beer" (Crown by name). It was horrible and nobody bought it. The powers that be eventually offer it at "two for one" (which was kind of laughable since a can of beer was only 15 cents to begin with) - and still nobody bought it. Eventually they pronounced that until the Crown beer inventory was depleted, there would be no other beer for sale. After 2 weeks of no beer sales, they brought back American beer and the Crown beer could be had free for the asking. Even then is was a rare occasion to see someone with a can of Crown in his hand. After a month or so it just disappeared.