Is it worth buying a Chinese laser used? *Pics*

[Dan Souliere]

There is a local guy selling a nice-cut.com NC-1390 (48"x36" work area) with upgraded 120w reci laser for $6,500. It includes all the accessories (air pump, chiller, exhaust fan). It's about a year old in 9.5 out of 10 condition. Apparently it was used for 50hrs and the tube life is 8,000hrs.

1. How much do these usually cost new to my door?
2. What should I look for when buying used?
3. Does nice-cut have a good reputation for support?

Any help is greatly appreciated. :)

Video of it in action:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qofpqqf2nku1zr9/Laser.mp4?dl=0

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26003034/nice-cut1.jpeg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26003034/nice-cut2.jpeg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26003034/nice-cut3.jpeg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26003034/nice-cut4.jpeg

[Dan Hintz]

Never hear of nice-cut, so can't offer advice on the company, per se... but the machine is the same that all of the other Chinese "manufacturers" offer, so...

Listed tube life nearly a guess when it comes to tubes. Reci is definitely one of the better brands, but there's no easy way to tell what kind of life it has left in it. Your best bet is to see the machine run, cut some thick material, and if you have the ability to, test the output power. Search for similar Chinese machines and see what they cost... do not expect the same depreciation schedule as a higher-quality Western machine.

[George M. Perzel]

Dan;
Pretty standard Chinese design. I would be more concerned over the condition of the mechanicals and controls than the tube. You can get a new tube, including air shipment for less than $1K. What material was being cut in the video and what power and speed were used.?
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[Dan Souliere]

I am actually really new to laser cutting and the sole purpose of buying this machine was to cut acrylic to build custom aquariums.

With that said, I just read that laser cut edges cannot be glued. It will cause crazing. Just like when flame polished edges are glued together. This is a MAJOR problem and looks like I will need a CNC machine instead. The only problem is that I need to go back to school to take a course on how to use one. FML.

[Mike Null]

Dan

I believe a little more research might be in order. I believe you can glue laser cut cast acrylic without crazing. I've only worked with material up to .125" but have had no problem with that.

On the other hand, all of the thick acrylic that I've glued has been saw cut and polished.

[David Somers]

Dan,

Is there a reason you need to go to the expense of a CNC or laser for cutting acrylic for this purpose? Would a standard saw do it and be wayyyyyy less expensive with zip for a learning curve? By the way, with a modern CNC and its software it should not be harder to use than a laser, especially for something like this. You do have the ability to use Gcode to get very detailed in your control of the device, but for most purposes the CAD and CAM package(s) you use will cover it without the need to write code yourself. But a simple saw and drills seem like all you need combined with flame polishing? Especially with the thick pieces you will be dealing with.

Dave

[Dan Souliere]

The plan is to use 1/4" acrylic to make the following designs.

These are called "sumps" and they are filtration boxes under saltwater aquariums where you keep all the supporting equipment hidden from view under the tank stand.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26003034/aquabox.jpg

[Scott Shepherd]

Lasering is not the right way to make that box. If you plan on gluing acrylic the important part is that the edges are square. A laser cuts on a taper because the beam is shaped like an hourglass. If you tried to glue, thick, laser cut pieces together to make something that holds water, you'd be making a big mistake, in my opinion.

[matthew knott]

That laser looks EXACTLY like a Shenui, (which in turn look very much like any chinese laser) we have its bigger brother and its not been a bad machine. In fact we like it so much we got a matching router https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsRXFvtIMAAxYku.jpg . We use this to cut Alupanel to size, as a laser wont touch it, now i understand how it works its a very handy machine, but its not for the fainthearted and took me a full day to work out the software.
I would agree a laser is NOT the right tool for this job but a router would do a very nice job

[Scott Shepherd]

If my memory serves me correctly, your partner already owns a router, doesn't he? I seem to recall him telling me that he bought one about 1 1/2 years ago.

[Rich Harman]

I am actually really new to laser cutting and the sole purpose of buying this machine was to cut acrylic to build custom aquariums.

With that said, I just read that laser cut edges cannot be glued. It will cause crazing. Just like when flame polished edges are glued together. This is a MAJOR problem and looks like I will need a CNC machine instead. The only problem is that I need to go back to school to take a course on how to use one. FML.

Can't tell much from the pictures other than they have the laser tube mounted wrong.

You don't want to edge glue lasered parts if they need to hold water. What you can do is to cut them 1/16 oversized then run them through a jointer.

[Rich Harman]

Lasering is not the right way to make that box.

Don't tell that to my customer! I laser cut parts all the time that are used in custom aquariums and sumps. The trick is to cut oversize then use a jointer to dress the glued edges.

[Scott Shepherd]

I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said it wasn't the best way to do it. Why have to go buy a jointer with the laser, when you can just use the router and do it all in one step. Not to mention the fact that you can cut acrylic a lot faster on the router than you can on the laser.

[Rich Harman]

In this case, they had been using a jointer before meeting me. They did look into having it routed for them, much more expensive than having me do it. Considering all the work that goes into building these things, running the piece across a jointer takes no time at all.

[Scott Shepherd]

They did look into having it routed for them, much more expensive than having me do it.

Maybe your price is too low? :)

[Rich Harman]

Maybe your price is too low? :)

Probably. They were my first real customer and have been extremely helpful and easy to work with.

[Andrew Holloway]

Can't tell much from the pictures other than they have the laser tube mounted wrong.

What's wrong with the mounting?

[Rich Harman]

It looks like the distance between the supports is not per Reci's recommendation but more importantly the tube should be rotated 90 degrees so that the outgoing cooling passage is at the top to evacuate air bubbles.

[Rich Harman]

You can get a new tube, including air shipment for less than $1K.

Where can you get a 120W Reci shipped for under $1K?

[Dan Souliere]

The more I read about CNC machines, the more I feel completely out of my element. The software is so complex compared to a laser.

I do think its worth buying a laser and using a jointer on the edges that need to be glued.

I really appreciate everyone's help.

I will also rotate the reci laser once I get it home. :)

[George M. Perzel]

Rich;
Try EFR Bejing-see link
http://en.bjefr.com/?page_id=2
ZN-1650 is $680 plus $300 air ship.
EFR tubes are rated by some as better than RECI-see thread by Dave Sheldrake.
Best Regards,
George
Laserarts

[John Bion]

The more I read about CNC machines, the more I feel completely out of my element. The software is so complex compared to a laser.
I do think its worth buying a laser and using a jointer on the edges that need to be glued.
I really appreciate everyone's help.
I will also rotate the reci laser once I get it home. :)

Hi Dan,

I am 'Mr Major Simpleton’ when it comes to technology and I have a CNC router that I use with (relative) ease. I use basic CAD software and run my machine with no (big) problems. The learning curve for the router was much smaller than that for the lasers.
Although I only scratch at the basic levels of Vectric software, I have no problems using it to convert all my drawings to G Code (couple of clicks) and run my machine.
For the work you are looking at, a router would be really easy, quick and efficient to use.

Do not be turned off routers by *apparent* complexity. The software that came with my Chinese router (Ucancam) is much more ‘fit for purpose’ than Lasercut 5.3 on the lasers.

Kind Regards, John

[David Somers]

Dan,

I totally agree with John. (not about him being a Mr Major Simpleton, but about the CNC devices not being that hard <teasing grin>) Please don't discount them. Here is why.

Most of the time, when you read discussions about the operation of a CNC you see something that breaks it into a whole series of steps. They might be, use Autocad or some other CAD program to design your objects. Then take that file and bring it into a CAM program where you do a bunch more futzing about with it. And then that program outputs a file that it has written in Gcode which is the language the router uses to do its work. And then you open the Gcode file and you fuss around in there a bunch and finally you dump it to the CNC and there you are.

By the way....just in case you havent reached this point in your research. CAD is Computer Aided Design. Autocad is one example. Think Corel or Illustrator with a high degree of accuracy and measurement capability. Then you have CAM, which is Computer Aided Manufacturing. That is software that takes the output of your CAD program, gives you some control over what the device will do, and then outputs a Gcode file that you then send to the device, or edit in the same way someone writing software would edit their code.

Most of the software packages now combine the functions of CAD and CAM in one package, or in a tightly related pair of packages. You can usually design your object and tell the CNC how to do things all within the one package, all using its GUI or graphical user interface. Then you dump it off to the CNC and off you go. The only time you might go in and edit the Gcode is if you had VERY specific things you wanted to do and working at the coding level was the easiest or most flexible way to do it. Otherwise you can affect everything you are likely to do from within the software.

If an analogy helps, think of taking a Corel File and printing to a Postscript Printer. You would draw your corel object. Then you would tell Windows to print it to the post script printer and a dialogue box would open up with the PostScript Printer Driver offering you control over various aspects of your printing job. When you got done editing those aspects of the job using your menus you would say print, and the job would go off to the printer. Done. That would be a typical CAD/CAM CNC process, with the exception that CAM is not a print driver. Instead it outputs a file of instructions written in Gcode, which you then hand to the CNC router and say "do this."

Now, keep in mind I have not actually bought a laser yet. (I feel like an actor on TV who says.."I am not a real doctor, but I play one on TV!") But....in getting to the point where I am ready to buy, along with digging into Lasers a lot, I have also been digging into CNC and some Chinese manufactures have kindly sent me the manuals and demo software used on their products. It was definately more intuitive to deal with than the laser software I have seen from them.

And keep in mind that the type of job you are looking at doing, your custom fish tanks, are really 2d jobs that consist of cutting a specific thickness of material both for its outer shape and to make inner voids for fixtures and fittings. They are extremely simple shapes. There is no need to utilize Gcode directly to do that kind of work. A CAD/CAM program should do it directly and be relatively simple. Does that mean that after you become comfortable using a CNC router that you don't start to expand your work to more complicated things? And that you might just get curious about what it is manipulating Gcode can do for you? Of course not. But for the tank work you are showing us I sure don't see any need to go into Gcode manually. You will simply let the CAD/CAM software deal with it. Just like you let Corel or Word and your PostScript driver deal with the Postscript Language when you print to a PS printer.

Does that mean you can pull it out of the crate, assemble it, and be ripping out your fish tanks as soon as you slip in a cutting bit? Certainly not. You will have a learning curve, just like any tool. But you are going to be at the close end of the curve in terms of what you are looking to do.

Have you spoken with other tank manufacturers about what they are using? It may be there is another tool out there that would be better for you. And having seen your photos of tanks now my earlier question about using a saw was not realistic. But given the choice between using a laser for this or using a CNC router? No question. I would turn to a router. And give what you are doing I would not worry about dealing directly with Gcode at all. Not needed. If you feel you can handle a laser then you can handle a CNC router.

Dave

[Ross Moshinsky]

There are pros and cons to each type of equipment.

To me, lasers are much easier to operate but cost more and obviously there is an issue gluing the laser cut edge. Lasers are also more limited on how thick they can cut and what they can cut. The customer might want to add a PVC element to the tank but you won't be able to do that. The pro of the laser is the ease of use but also the fact it can cut really tight internal angles. This may or may not be an issue but a CNC router cannot do this.

CNC's are not that much more difficult to operate, but they are overall more difficult. You have to find the right bit, feed, and spindle rpm. It's not crazy complicated but you have to keep in mind when you're using an 1/8" bit vs a 3/8" bit how the material behaves and how it behaves in each thickness. It's not rocket science but it's more difficult than the laser. The thing that is really more complicated is holding materials down. Again, not rocket science but it's something regularly discussed in the CNC world. Vacuum tables solve a lot of these problems, but they have a cost associated with them. You can use tabs and other things as an alternative, but they are not as easy as throwing the material down on the laser and pressing go. The major benefit of the CNC is the fact it is far more versatile. Want to cut 1/8" acrylic or 1" acrylic? Doesn't care. PVC? Doesn't care. Wood? Doesn't care. As long as you have the right bit for the job, it will do the job.

I'm not an acrylic fabricator but my guess is a 4x4 CNC with a vacuum table would be the smarter way to go.

[John Bion]

It is not difficult to ask a router bit salesman, or on SMC, for a recommendation of type of bit, speeds etc for the specific material you are looking at, this way you do not have to experiment much nor have a vast tooling range.
I do have a vacuum table and love it.
Kind Regards, John

[AL Ursich]

Another option is to cut pattern pieces from 1/4 inch stock and use a flush trim router bit or a router table to final trim the parts. I am guessing that it will be a bunch of the same parts made over and over. Rough cut the finish material and attach the pattern with double stick tape and trim flush and 90 degrees to the cut. I have some bearing trim bits that have a shear angle that work well. http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_flush.html

Making the pattern would be the challange.... in the picture I used some Auto Body filler to fix the pattern when I slipped...

Just another way to make a product without buying the laser..... I cut the plastic pattern on my CarveWright.

In the last picture you can see the bit has a slight sprial to the cutter.

AL

[Mike Audleman]

Maybe your price is too low? :)

Maybe its not seeing as how they are his customer now :)

[Scott Shepherd]

Maybe its not seeing as how they are his customer now :)

Getting customers is easy. Getting ones that pay top dollar for work is the secret :D

[John Bion]

Getting customers is easy. Getting ones that pay top dollar for work is the secret :D

^ A +++ Couldn't agree more with you Steve (Scott).

[Dan Souliere]

Dan,

I totally agree with John. (not about him being a Mr Major Simpleton, but about the CNC devices not being that hard <teasing grin>) Please don't discount them. Here is why.

Most of the time, when you read discussions about the operation of a CNC you see something that breaks it into a whole series of steps. They might be, use Autocad or some other CAD program to design your objects. Then take that file and bring it into a CAM program where you do a bunch more futzing about with it. And then that program outputs a file that it has written in Gcode which is the language the router uses to do its work. And then you open the Gcode file and you fuss around in there a bunch and finally you dump it to the CNC and there you are.

By the way....just in case you havent reached this point in your research. CAD is Computer Aided Design. Autocad is one example. Think Corel or Illustrator with a high degree of accuracy and measurement capability. Then you have CAM, which is Computer Aided Manufacturing. That is software that takes the output of your CAD program, gives you some control over what the device will do, and then outputs a Gcode file that you then send to the device, or edit in the same way someone writing software would edit their code.

Most of the software packages now combine the functions of CAD and CAM in one package, or in a tightly related pair of packages. You can usually design your object and tell the CNC how to do things all within the one package, all using its GUI or graphical user interface. Then you dump it off to the CNC and off you go. The only time you might go in and edit the Gcode is if you had VERY specific things you wanted to do and working at the coding level was the easiest or most flexible way to do it. Otherwise you can affect everything you are likely to do from within the software.

If an analogy helps, think of taking a Corel File and printing to a Postscript Printer. You would draw your corel object. Then you would tell Windows to print it to the post script printer and a dialogue box would open up with the PostScript Printer Driver offering you control over various aspects of your printing job. When you got done editing those aspects of the job using your menus you would say print, and the job would go off to the printer. Done. That would be a typical CAD/CAM CNC process, with the exception that CAM is not a print driver. Instead it outputs a file of instructions written in Gcode, which you then hand to the CNC router and say "do this."

Now, keep in mind I have not actually bought a laser yet. (I feel like an actor on TV who says.."I am not a real doctor, but I play one on TV!") But....in getting to the point where I am ready to buy, along with digging into Lasers a lot, I have also been digging into CNC and some Chinese manufactures have kindly sent me the manuals and demo software used on their products. It was definately more intuitive to deal with than the laser software I have seen from them.

And keep in mind that the type of job you are looking at doing, your custom fish tanks, are really 2d jobs that consist of cutting a specific thickness of material both for its outer shape and to make inner voids for fixtures and fittings. They are extremely simple shapes. There is no need to utilize Gcode directly to do that kind of work. A CAD/CAM program should do it directly and be relatively simple. Does that mean that after you become comfortable using a CNC router that you don't start to expand your work to more complicated things? And that you might just get curious about what it is manipulating Gcode can do for you? Of course not. But for the tank work you are showing us I sure don't see any need to go into Gcode manually. You will simply let the CAD/CAM software deal with it. Just like you let Corel or Word and your PostScript driver deal with the Postscript Language when you print to a PS printer.

Does that mean you can pull it out of the crate, assemble it, and be ripping out your fish tanks as soon as you slip in a cutting bit? Certainly not. You will have a learning curve, just like any tool. But you are going to be at the close end of the curve in terms of what you are looking to do.

Have you spoken with other tank manufacturers about what they are using? It may be there is another tool out there that would be better for you. And having seen your photos of tanks now my earlier question about using a saw was not realistic. But given the choice between using a laser for this or using a CNC router? No question. I would turn to a router. And give what you are doing I would not worry about dealing directly with Gcode at all. Not needed. If you feel you can handle a laser then you can handle a CNC router.

Dave

That all sounds fantastic to me!

That was my biggest fear was the my jobs are down-right simple and all these software programs are so complex. I just need a stripped down version to make sense of everything.

What simple software would you recommend that can do CAD/CAM right to the CNC?


There are pros and cons to each type of equipment.

To me, lasers are much easier to operate but cost more and obviously there is an issue gluing the laser cut edge. Lasers are also more limited on how thick they can cut and what they can cut. The customer might want to add a PVC element to the tank but you won't be able to do that. The pro of the laser is the ease of use but also the fact it can cut really tight internal angles. This may or may not be an issue but a CNC router cannot do this.

CNC's are not that much more difficult to operate, but they are overall more difficult. You have to find the right bit, feed, and spindle rpm. It's not crazy complicated but you have to keep in mind when you're using an 1/8" bit vs a 3/8" bit how the material behaves and how it behaves in each thickness. It's not rocket science but it's more difficult than the laser. The thing that is really more complicated is holding materials down. Again, not rocket science but it's something regularly discussed in the CNC world. Vacuum tables solve a lot of these problems, but they have a cost associated with them. You can use tabs and other things as an alternative, but they are not as easy as throwing the material down on the laser and pressing go. The major benefit of the CNC is the fact it is far more versatile. Want to cut 1/8" acrylic or 1" acrylic? Doesn't care. PVC? Doesn't care. Wood? Doesn't care. As long as you have the right bit for the job, it will do the job.

I'm not an acrylic fabricator but my guess is a 4x4 CNC with a vacuum table would be the smarter way to go.

You definitely have a good point. The limitation on certain materials like PVC/ABS on a laser is certainly an issue.

[Clark Pace]

The thicker the acrylic the more taper you will get, depending on the focus of the lens. Al previously suggested you would have to use a jointer or saw and cut the edges back to get a straight edge. Also, the lasered edges will also have a weeker joint unless cut back.

I would suggest a combination of tools, or buy a good cnc.

[Tony Lenkic]

Dan,

I would suggest you attend Consac trade show on Sept. 19-20 at International Center. You can talk to some of CNC machines mfg/distributors and see first hand what they offer.

[David Somers]

Dan,

You asked which software you should look at?

From what I have seen I might lean toward products by Vectric. I liked the look of Aspire.
But, this type of software can elicit the same type of reaction from people that Corel and Illustrator inspire. Or PC vc Mac. Etc.
I would really suggest getting to a CNC sales event were you have a variety of machines and Software Packages on hand and look for the package that speaks to you best. That fits your way of thinking and working and the type of jobs you envision. And try to envision some growth in what you do. You may not always want to do JUST the work of cutting fish tank parts. You will have a powerful tool in a CNC and your imagination may be revved up by it if you have the time to play.

Try checking this thread on Cad Cam software and the differences between CNC and Laser. It is an interesting discussion.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103075-Laser-vs-CNC-router

Also, try doing this search in Google.
site:www.sawmillcreek.org "cad cam software"

You will get a slug of threads with the phrase "Cad Cam Software" in them that will discuss the packages in various ways.
Or, just start browsing through the CNC forum here in the Creek. You will get a lot.

But ultimately, get to a show and get your hands on some packages and see which ones really meet your work needs and your way or working and thinking.

Dave

[Scott Shepherd]

Something isn't making sense here. Dan has listed his location as being in Ontario, but the name on the product is AquaBox, and I've personally made the prototypes for the inventor of AquaBox in Virginia. I CNC cut and lasered various pieces for about a year. Last contact with them, my customer had bought his own router. Now, this post is showing his box, but showing a location of Canada.

Something's not right here. Either his partner (who was a mechanic) has moved to Canada, or someone's sold the design, or someone's copying a design.

[Dan Souliere]

Something isn't making sense here. Dan has listed his location as being in Ontario, but the name on the product is AquaBox, and I've personally made the prototypes for the inventor of AquaBox in Virginia. I CNC cut and lasered various pieces for about a year. Last contact with them, my customer had bought his own router. Now, this post is showing his box, but showing a location of Canada.

Something's not right here. Either his partner (who was a mechanic) has moved to Canada, or someone's sold the design, or someone's copying a design.

The picture of the aqua box was simply to show what type of work I am looking to do.

I am not claiming it was made by us.

[Dan Souliere]

Dan,

You asked which software you should look at?

From what I have seen I might lean toward products by Vectric. I liked the look of Aspire.
But, this type of software can elicit the same type of reaction from people that Corel and Illustrator inspire. Or PC vc Mac. Etc.
I would really suggest getting to a CNC sales event were you have a variety of machines and Software Packages on hand and look for the package that speaks to you best. That fits your way of thinking and working and the type of jobs you envision. And try to envision some growth in what you do. You may not always want to do JUST the work of cutting fish tank parts. You will have a powerful tool in a CNC and your imagination may be revved up by it if you have the time to play.

Try checking this thread on Cad Cam software and the differences between CNC and Laser. It is an interesting discussion.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103075-Laser-vs-CNC-router

Also, try doing this search in Google.
site:www.sawmillcreek.org (http://www.sawmillcreek.org) "cad cam software"

You will get a slug of threads with the phrase "Cad Cam Software" in them that will discuss the packages in various ways.
Or, just start browsing through the CNC forum here in the Creek. You will get a lot.

But ultimately, get to a show and get your hands on some packages and see which ones really meet your work needs and your way or working and thinking.

Dave

I just watched the software demo video of Aspire and it does not seem nearly as complex as others I have looked at (Mach3, etc..). With that said, its not cheap @ $2,000.

Looks like Cut2D do the trick and its only $150. I don't need any crazy extra features considering how basic my jobs are.

If I am going to go the CNC route, I would like to build one myself (cncrouterparts.com). I can get something bigger (4' x 8') for under $10K and its brand new. I already have experience cutting and assembling t-slot aluminum because that is what we make our custom aquariums stands from.

Thanks so much for all your help guys. You probably saved me a ton of headache

[Rich Harman]

For the type of 2D work you would be doing you certainly don't need anything fancy or expensive. If you will be making the same part over and over then you could even write the gcode yourself - it really isn't hard. Really. I have a CNC mill, when I need to make simple shapes, that's exactly what I do, write the gcode by hand. For more complex shapes I will use the free Ace converter to convert a dxf into gcode.

If you are really going to get into making custom sumps, 4ft won't be enough. I cut a five foot overflow just last week - tricky since my work area was 5" short of that.

[Rich Harman]

Something isn't making sense here. Dan has listed his location as being in Ontario, but the name on the product is AquaBox, and I've personally made the prototypes for the inventor of AquaBox in Virginia. I CNC cut and lasered various pieces for about a year.

How long did it take you to cut out all the parts for that sump?

[Rich Harman]

Getting customers is easy. Getting ones that pay top dollar for work is the secret :D

This particular customer also helps me out in other ways. It's not just what I bill him. If you factor the other things in, I actually make out quite nicely.

[Dan Hintz]

I just watched the software demo video of Aspire and it does not seem nearly as complex as others I have looked at (Mach3, etc..).

You're mixing two different packages here, so be careful. Mach3 is for controlling the CNC, whereas Aspire is for creating the object and/or toolpath. Both (or similar) are necessary.

[John Bion]

The basic process for the laser (in my case): create file in CorelDraw (usually), export as dxf, import into Lasercut 5.3, download to machine.
The basic process for the router (in my case): create file in V Carve Pro (or import into V Carve from another CAD program as dxf), create G code after inputting wood parameters, tooling, speeds etc; which is all very simple (output as a .tap file - I have a Chinese router), import .tap into NC Studio (an alternative to Mach 3), click Start.
Both are very similar processes, just with more set-up on the router as a previous poster mentioned.

If you were going to spend the money on a laser, why not just spend the same (or perhaps less money) on a router, rather than spending time and frustration building one when you could have been up and running on a ready built machine? If your head boggled at the use of a router, why try build one? My first use of my router paid me money, no testing, no fiddling, no spending 6 months on building the machine and trying to get it right. Turn Key has great benefits.

Regards, John

[Scott Shepherd]

How long did it take you to cut out all the parts for that sump?

I didn't cut that box in that photo so I can't comment on that. The customer started with us, bringing us jobs to "laser" and more often than not, they ended up on the router, not the laser. After working with him for about a year, he bought his own CNC router and had pulled most everything in house.

However, from a time standpoint, it's much more efficient to put one sheet of material on the router and have it cut all the pieces out than having to cut a larger sheet into pieces that will fit into the laser, then cut on the laser, then take to a jointer. It's just faster to cut (the router is much faster than a laser on acrylic), and it's less steps. If you're happy doing it the way you're doing it, then knock yourself out. I'm just saying if a customer brought that work into my shop today, I would quote it as a CNC job and it would never see our lasers.

[Dan Souliere]

The basic process for the laser (in my case): create file in CorelDraw (usually), export as dxf, import into Lasercut 5.3, download to machine.
The basic process for the router (in my case): create file in V Carve Pro (or import into V Carve from another CAD program as dxf), create G code after inputting wood parameters, tooling, speeds etc; which is all very simple (output as a .tap file - I have a Chinese router), import .tap into NC Studio (an alternative to Mach 3), click Start.
Both are very similar processes, just with more set-up on the router as a previous poster mentioned.

If you were going to spend the money on a laser, why not just spend the same (or perhaps less money) on a router, rather than spending time and frustration building one when you could have been up and running on a ready built machine? If your head boggled at the use of a router, why try build one? My first use of my router paid me money, no testing, no fiddling, no spending 6 months on building the machine and trying to get it right. Turn Key has great benefits.

Regards, John

Physically building a router does not seem overly difficult, just time consuming.

I figured I would be forced to build one vs. buying one pre-built do to my budget ($10k).

[Scott Shepherd]

The picture of the aqua box was simply to show what type of work I am looking to do.

I am not claiming it was made by us.

Yes, but you said in your initially posted the following :


The plan is to use 1/4" acrylic to make the following designs.

I hope you aren't planning on copying the design the guy at AquaBox developed.

[Jerome Stanek]

I do 90% of my wok in Aspire and either output it to the CnC or export it as a dfx so the Laser can use it

[Dan Souliere]

Yes, but you said in your initially posted the following :

I hope you aren't planning on copying the design the guy at AquaBox developed.

They won't be direct copies, that for sure. I got my own ideas.

Besides, we are in different markets. I am providing these sumps to Canada only. He provides to the US.

[Scott Shepherd]

They won't be direct copies, that for sure. I got my own ideas.

Besides, we are in different markets. I am providing these sumps to Canada only. He provides to the US.

I hope not. He's not a big company you'd be stealing his design from, he's a guy with an idea that's trying to do right and make it. I'd hate to think if it were your idea that you'd be happy about someone else copying it either, whether or not if they lived in your country.

[Dan Souliere]

I hope not. He's not a big company you'd be stealing his design from, he's a guy with an idea that's trying to do right and make it. I'd hate to think if it were your idea that you'd be happy about someone else copying it either, whether or not if they lived in your country.

LOL

For the record, his designs are not unique.

I can show you many examples that look the same as his desings.

[Art Mann]

. . . If I am going to go the CNC route, I would like to build one myself (cncrouterparts.com). I can get something bigger (4' x 8') for under $10K and its brand new. I already have experience cutting and assembling t-slot aluminum because that is what we make our custom aquariums stands from.

Building the mechanical structures is less than half the problem. Wiring and configuring the controls and calibrating the mechanics is the hard part. My advice is to stick with a company like cncrouterparts.com and make use of their fully integrated electronics packages. That way, you can also use their recommended calibration and machine setups. Trying to do that on your own will make learning to use Vcarve Pro seem trivial.

[Rich Harman]

However, from a time standpoint, it's much more efficient to put one sheet of material on the router and have it cut all the pieces out than having to cut a larger sheet into pieces that will fit into the laser,...

I see. My customer supplies all the pieces already cut to size to fit in the laser.

[Scott Shepherd]

I see. My customer supplies all the pieces already cut to size to fit in the laser.

That helps a lot. Do they use mainly cast or extruded acrylic? I keep saying I'm going to make my own tank, but seems like we use a lot more extruded than cast, and cast seems to be what people say to use, from what I have briefly read.

[Rich Harman]

Cast for sure, not only that but a particular grade of cast that glues better. He had a partner that used another type of cast, led to a bunch of problems, he had to rebuild some tanks. The partner is gone now...

[Scott Shepherd]

Cast for sure, not only that but a particular grade of cast that glues better. He had a partner that used another type of cast, led to a bunch of problems, he had to rebuild some tanks. The partner is gone now...

Figures, we did a lot of cast in the past and after having some specific issues with a customers products, we changed over to extruded, so I can't sneak a side panel here and there out of it :(

Not to mention I looked at the calculations for it and 1/2" thick acrylic won't get you a very big tank.

[Rich Harman]

Not to mention I looked at the calculations for it and 1/2" thick acrylic won't get you a very big tank.

I can tell you that they make 4ft sumps out of 3/8 all the time. There is a top piece that adds a bunch of strength. I don't think it would be good without the top piece. They don't make any of the actual tanks out of acrylic, glass only. Acrylic scratches too easily.

[Scott Shepherd]

That's interesting. When I was searching around about it, it appeared that acrylic tanks were commonly done. In fact, there are a couple of tv shows that show people making tanks and all they use is acrylic.

One of the sites had a link to a calculation tool and it showed all the pressures and how think you could use based on the sizes you input. 1/2" thick was pretty small, something like 24" x 18" x 18" or something like that.

It did have a selection for whether or not it had the top. I didn't know what that was, since I didn't know how you'd get the fish in if you glued a top on ;)

[Rich Harman]

...since I didn't know how you'd get the fish in if you glued a top on ;)
The AquaBox pictured on the first page has a top.

[Rich Harman]

In fact, there are a couple of tv shows that show people making tanks and all they use is acrylic.
I have heard of those shows but not watched them. I expect that once you get to the really really big tanks acrylic becomes more favorable again. My customer makes tanks at least up to ten feet using glass.

[Rich Harman]

Figures, we did a lot of cast in the past and after having some specific issues with a customers products, we changed over to extruded...
I assume it was not used in any structural application...

I don't use extruded for anything unless it is just for decoration or experimentation - only because I still have some on hand. But if I were to cut something like what goes in a picture frame, I would probably use extruded.

[Dan Hintz]

I have heard of those shows but not watched them. I expect that once you get to the really really big tanks acrylic becomes more favorable again. My customer makes tanks at least up to ten feet using glass.

The hallways people walk through at the big (state-run) Aquariums... acrylic. I can't imagine how much those puppies weigh, particularly if they were made of glass.