Sharpening in a waterless shop

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Rather than add to the other sharpening threads I thought I'd start another.

In the past I've been working out of my garage with a bathroom just on the other side of the door so waterstones were my normal sharpening medium. Having water to soak, spritz or flatten them wasn't a problem. But the new shop is a separate building and it doesn't have water and wouldn't be convenient to carry buckets back and forth, especially in winter. The discission of ceramic stones in george wilson's thread started me thinking that I might want to rethink my sharpening process. I've also been considering switching to a hollow ground and hand held sharpening process to minimize the time it takes to sharpen using jigs so it gets done more often.

So if you could distill it down, what are the advantages/disadvantages of the systems that need little to no water? I'm guessing the ceramic stones and oil stones are two of the top contenders. Any others that I should explore?

Thanks.

Cliff

[Pat Barry]

Yes, I agree with you, what about the scary sharp method? This works, sans water, but I don't know how far to go with it? 320, 400, 600, 800, 1200, 2000? How good is good enough?

[David Weaver]

The least expensive and most practical (in terms of cutting speed and continuing to cut at the same speed) is probably a grinder, an eze lap 600 (the only nice-to-use long lasting hone I've found) and 1 micron loose diamonds on any junk flat piece of cast or maybe the $20 anvil Dave Barnett possted.

Ceramic stones are another option.

Oilstones are the third.

Dry grinder included with all of those options.

If I only had one possible thing, I'd choose either oilstones or the diamond stones. The spydercos are a bit harder to use, the diamonds the easiest and the oilstones in between with the caveat that oilstones may do a little more to dictate what types of tools you like to use.

In my opinion, you will want to freehand sharpen with any of these methods. For chisels, you can use the coarsest stone and work on the hollow and then lift the handle a few degrees on a step finer, or you can just lift the handle slightly steeper than the hollow grind after the first hone with both steps. There's no faster way to sharpen that doesn't compromise geometry, and geometry is important.

I saw a comment on another forum recently about geometry that barbers never check the angle of their razors when they're stropping, and that comment is 100% false. A razor spine never leaves the strop during stropping, meaning it's never stropped at a steeper angle than its grind. Lifting the spine is called "rolling" the edge, and it can ruin a razor's edge in one stroke (even on bare leather) and send a user back to the hones.

Set the geometry, refine the edge then with as little work as possible and you can go fast and sharp for a long time.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Good point on what I'm using. To clarify, I have O1, A2 chisels and plane irons and a PM-V11 on the shooting plane. So, a little bit of everything.

Cliff

[David Weaver]

600 eze lap (weather the initial very fast coarse cutting, it settles down very quickly) and loose 1 micron diamonds is what I'd use.

[Jim Koepke]

With your selection of irons it sounds like you need the cutting abilities of something more aggressive than oil stones.

My shop has no running water. There is a plastic tub for soaking/cleaning the stones. A short walk with a plastic milk jug brings water to the shop. An automotive floor mat keeps the mess contained.

During the coldest days of winter, water freezes in my unheated shop. That is when the oil stones become the primary honing system. Most of my iron is either high carbon steel or blades made before the modern steels were on the market. If your area has heat it may not be necessary to have a back up system.

Most of the time my sharpening is done free hand. Most of the time my blades have a flat bevel. Hollow grinding makes things easier but isn't essential to success.

If you are certain you do not want to fuss with the problems of water stones, then the ceramic (Spyderco) stones might be the right way for you.

jtk

[bridger berdel]

Good point on what I'm using. To clarify, I have O1, A2 chisels and plane irons and a PM-V11 on the shooting plane. So, a little bit of everything.

Cliff



mine is a waterless shop. I can walk 50 feet to a sink, but that sink is shared with swmbo. mine is a waterless shop.

you have some of the harder modern steels, so that will drive your stone choices. diamond is likely for the lower grit ranges, say up to 2000 or so. after that, IDK, ceramics might be the thing. I don't have any ceramic bench stones, so I'm not the right person to comment on that. I have mostly vintage steel, so I get off easy :) the only A2 I have is the veritas medium shoulder plane, and I have had good luck with it finishing on the surgical black ark.

as far as stones, I'm a complete polylith. I have a very mixed batch, ranging from ones that I picked up off of the ground and flattened myself (including one that behaves just like the surgical black!) to cheap hardware store stones, to a mixed bag of diamond (including loose) to waterstones that don't get used much (mine is a waterless shop) to natural stones from many sources, a lot of them secondhand (I couldn't tell you what a lot of them are, just what they do for me)

my preferred cutting fluid these days is isopropyl alcohol. here in Tucson we have a chain of cheap goods stores called big lots. they have quart bottles of 75% isopropyl for $1.75. they also have a decent spray bottle for $1.00 that is thread compatible with the alcohol bottle. for most stones this works great. the alcohol is an aggressive cleaner. a wipe with a rag leaves the stone clean. 75% is enough alcohol to carry away all of the water by evaporation, so rusting is not a problem. alcohol is thinner and wets out better than water. for most stones it performs quite well. I have a few stones that are essentially nonporous that I will go back and forth with oil (the translucent arks). alcohol on diamond plates works superbly.

the disadvantages are:
it dries quickly.
thirsty stones like most waterstones and cheap hardware store grey stones are out.
it has that medicinal smell.
the final cost is a little higher than some other methods. pennies, really.

[glenn bradley]

Yes, I agree with you, what about the scary sharp method? This works, sans water, but I don't know how far to go with it? 320, 400, 600, 800, 1200, 2000? How good is good enough?

My SS setup goes to .3 microns (yes that's point-3). That being said, my sharpening armory has a variety of weapons based on the tool to be dealt with. I have also had good luck with DMT diamond plates. I have read reports of short life but, have not experienced it. One of my DMT plates is pushing a decade of use. You can definitely kill a diamond plate by not progressing through the grits. That is, taking a surface from 120 grit stone and working it on a 600 grit surface till the 120 grit marks are gone will shorten the life :p.

[Tom M King]

In one of my shops, the sharpening sink drain goes straight through the wall, and waters an Azalea.

[Jim Matthews]

I use Atoma Diamond plates and a fine oil.

No water to clean up, and no rust after 10 months.
Not cheap, but they will last my lifetime.

I use a 1" wide sanding belt as a grinder for badly chipped blades.

Nothing cuts as fast as well tuned waterstones.
These are pretty close.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Jim that's very interesting. Which plate do you use as your 1k? I have the atoma 400 but it doesn't touch anything but waterstons

[Kees Heiden]

I've always used waterstones in the shed without running water nearby. I had a bucket just outside for the occasional stone flattening session. A plastic container to soak the stones and a spray bottle. And yes I had to walk to the kichen from time to time to get new water. The cold is indeed a problem with waterstones, it's no fun to sharpen when your fingers are freezing.

I am now moving my shop to the garage, and I get the luxury of running water! Can't wait.

[Doug Trembath]

Actually, I have been mimicking David Weaver's approach, using different media. Like Dave, I wanted to reduce the process down to a minimum, after hollow grinding. I ended up with a Trend 300 / 1K diamond plate, a piece of glass with 0.1 micron diamond paste, and a CrO2 paste on a piece of air dried Cherry as a strop. The strop is a bit redundant following the diamond, but it actually seems to make the edge just that little bit sharper, and provides a quick touch-up till it needs to hit the plate again.

Thirty seconds if I'm slow to go through the grits.

My shop, too, is without running water, and 130 feet from the house. I use milk jugs in warmer times, and have a spray bottle to work the plate and glass, just a squirt or two, and wipe the accumulated swarf off the surfaces with a rag after use. In freezing times, I use mineral spirits in a container like a ketchup or mustard container at a café or hot dog stand, which allows me to use just a drop or two at a time. This is absolutely the cleanest method I have ever found, as well.

I'm really pleased at how quickly and effortlessly I can refresh an edge now. It really makes a difference, as I like sharp tools, and need to get back to work ASAP.

Doug Trembath

[Jim Matthews]

Jim that's very interesting. Which plate do you use as your 1k? I have the atoma 400 but it doesn't touch anything but waterstons

I use the 400/600/1200 with a 1 micron diamond paste applied to the finest stone.
After that, I strop.

I've got a coarse DMT plate to get things started, if the blade is really rough.
After the first time around, I really need only the last two stones and a strop.

Using oil means no rust formed in my damp shop.
No sink, or bucket either.

[Jim Matthews]

A a CrO2 paste on a piece of air dried Cherry as a strop. The strop is a bit redundant following the diamond, but it actually seems to make the edge just that little bit sharper, and provides a quick touch-up till it needs to hit the plate again.


Doug Trembath

I need a strop to get the wire edge off most of my plane blades, and Marples chisels.
They're pretty soft steel, so putting them on my finest medium just moves the burr to
the other side of the blade.

Using a strop is sure to remove the burr.

****

If I find myself in mid-procedure wanting to strop, I go to the last two stones and rehone first.

[Pat Barry]

a piece of glass with 0.1 micron diamond paste,

This to me is surprising. Putting the diamonds directly on glass doesn't sound like a good combo. The idea of using cast iron to embed the diamonds is a typical approach. WHere I work we use a soft ceramic wheel for this purpose to avoid iron contamination. Never have I seen glass suggested for this.

[Jeff Posten]

+1 for 5 gallon bucket of water next to sharpening area. I use the same bucket to soak and rinse after flattening.

Jeff

[Doug Trembath]

I couldn't find any reasonable cast iron here, and didn't want to sacrifice any working tools for sharpening alone. I do feel cast iron, when Blanchard ground, or equivalent, would be the best media for diamond paste.

That being said, however, I have found, in my never-ending search for the best sharpening solution for my shop, quite a few folks who have used glass in this application. I had tried it years back, but gave up too early. It works quite well for me, and that's the only claim I am making here. The smaller diamond particles attach quite readily to the glass surface. 45 and 30 micron pastes have a bit more difficulty adhering, so I went to Lexan acrylic, which works very well. Probably not quite as optically flat as float glass, but more than sufficient to the task. Both the glass and the acrylic are placed in a holder fashioned from a scrap of particle board with Formica on it and edging to hold the glass in place, that has 150 grit sandpaper on the bottom, so nothing moves much in use. I built a small cabinet with shelves, and six different grits on 4" X 12" glass sheets. 60 , 30, 9, 3, 1, and 0.1 micron. I used a vibrating engraver to mark the grits to avoid my inevitable confusion, a lesson well learned. When I received the Trend plate recently, I found that I could use it to quickly refresh an edge from the grinder, and to my surprise, the 0.1 diamond took it to satisfactory sharpness, and the strop simply made it that little bit better, by polishing the surfaces a bit more than the diamond will. Many folks have reported that using diamond, loose or in paste form, will result in a less polished edge than many other regimens, but just as sharp. Steve Elliott did a wonderful job of explaining this, as I believe Dave Weaver did, as well, IIRC.

Different steels react differently, of course. I find A2 to have a much more difficult wire edge than stock Stanley irons, or some of the older irons I have. No PMV-11 yet in my arsenal, I'm afraid. Using mostly stock irons, I can get a high quality edge quickly and efficiently with my setup, and am very content with it, now, even though I don't use as many intermediate steps, or maybe because of that.

YMMV

Doug Trembath

[Rob Luter]

I'm waterless too. I started with blocks of thick MDF core board that has oak veneer on either side. I mounted a 1/4" thick glass plate to each block with contact cement.

Each of these MDF/Glass sandwiches serves as a mounting surface for 3M abrasive film I get from Tools for Working Wood. I mount each of the 5 available grits on the glass and wind up with progressively finer honing surfaces. A squirt of water on each block and you're good to go. Just wipe them off to clean them up. They work great for both flattening backs and honing beveled cutting edges. I can achieve near optically perfect flatness and put a cutting edge on a chisel or plane iron that is truly "Scary Sharp". I use a Lee Valley honing jig for both plane irons and chisels. I use the Borg grinder for putting a hollow grind on the blades when necessary.

While I have everything all set up on its own table, the honing blocks are easily portable so I can bring one to the bench for periodic touch ups to chisels. The whole setup was pretty cheap to make and the 3M film lasts a surprisingly long time. You get three usable pieces from each sheet so one of their multi-packs lasts about a year in my shop. Unlike water stones, I never have to flatten anything and there's little to no mess.


https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/12016227873_7c0db0c76f_b.jpg

[lowell holmes]

I'm with Jim. I keep a fine diamond plate on the bench with a spray bottle of water and a rag. I have mdf with compound on it and do 30 strokes honing the tool.

[Tim Put]

A machinist's v-block (something like this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Cast-Iron-V-Block-Pairs-6-/G9899) is an inexpensive source of cast iron as a substrate for diamonds. One needs to flatten and smooth the largest face, but that's easily done with some coarse sandpaper or some loose grit and the second v-block.

[Winton Applegate]

I had a friend who built a small house out of big rocks and boulders he moved himself with a big tripod. Hey, I don't know, I wasn't there. I did see the house though.

It din't have running water, well not pipes going to the house anyway. He hauled water. He is also the only guy I ever heard of who rolled a Jeep while sitting still in a traffic jam on the interstate. The Jeep started to slide sideways on black ice. In neutral with the brake on. Picked up enough momentum to roll when he hit the edge of the road. Hey again, I wasn't there. I think he just calmly winched it upright again and got back in the fight.

Anyway . . .
he was a bit "different" lets say.

Before I gave up my water stones I would get a burro, and some barrels . . .