I failed at panel flattening but now have big arms.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hi again, I posted yesterday about having problems flattening a small table top about 14"x 25". I wound up getting that pretty flat before sanding. Then I tried to flatten one side of a 9" x 25" maple board just to see if I could do it.

Well I couldn't. I used my #7 plane with very sharp blade at a 25 degree grind. The board was cupped all along the center lengthwise and had some twist in it according to my winding sticks.

I first planed the edges to reduce some of the cup. Then I started planing diagonally across the width from one end of the board to the other in a cross hatch pattern. I kept using my straight edge and winding sticks to check on flattness and twist in the board.

In the end all I got was a mess. :( There were low spots on the ends and it was way out of flat after working hard for an hour. At least I got some good exercise. (See a silver lining after all!)

So I went back over it with the winding sticks to get one side flat enough to go through the planer. After planing, the board was still slightly out of flat I'm sure due to the fact I hadn't properly flattened one side before planing. So I'm stumped for today but I haven't given up. I still want to learn how to do this but I'll give my arms a day to rest. At least my wife likes my new albeit temporary pumped up look from all the hard work. :)Alan (sore in Md.)

[Tim Sproul]

Alan,

If you are going to feed a power thicknesser, there is no need to remove the cup. Get the edges of the cupped face flat and parallel (no twist) and then feed the power thicknesser. Unless you're working with a 1/2 inch thickness, the thicknesser will remove the cup.

"low spots on the ends" is snipe. It is a problem with hand planes as well as with machinery. You need to apply some pressure on the toe at the beginning of the board and apply pressure at the heel at the end of a board to avoid this problem. I rather like to lift the heel a bit at the beginning and lift the toe a bit at the end of a stroke. Did you wedge the board to keep it from rocking while you were planing? Also, you shouldn't be applying much downward force when planing.....that tends to give inaccurate results. Needing to apply a lot of downward force is also a sign that your iron is getting dull.

Let's see what else I can think of....you should skew the plane when trying to face joint a cupped board. This helps you remove the cup as well....and jointer planes generally should be moved parallel to the grain. Scrubs and jacks (cambered irons) are used diagonal to the grain. Well, that is how I do it anyways. Also, you need not go to a jointer plane if feeding a power thicknesser. I often stop after scrubbing and feed the loud monster.

[Michael Perata]

Alan,

If you are going to feed a power thicknesser, there is no need to remove the cup. Get the edges of the cupped face flat and parallel (no twist) and then feed the power thicknesser. Unless you're working with a 1/2 inch thickness, the thicknesser will remove the cup.
Whoa, wooden tool cowboy. Unless he planes the concave part of the cup flat first all he will have ended up doing is making the convex top of the cupped board flatter on top and the board way too thin to do much with.

[Tim Sproul]

Whoa, wooden tool cowboy. Unless he planes the concave part of the cup flat first all he will have ended up doing is making the convex top of the cupped board flatter on top

Hmmm...It has worked for me with poplar, maple, madrone, jatoba, walnut, alder, "south american" alder, mahogany......feed the thicknesser with the crown up and the cup down and as long as the cup down side edges are flat and parallel, I get a flat board out after many passes and flips through the thicknesser.


and the board way too thin to do much with.

That has to do with the amount of cup....if too much cup, ripping and then flattening is one approach. If you need that wide a board, I'd opt to choose a different one and use the heavily cupped board for pieces that don't need the width.


and I have plenty o' metal tools too! :D

[Gene Collison]

Alan,

If you are going to feed a power thicknesser, there is no need to remove the cup. Get the edges of the cupped face flat and parallel (no twist) and then feed the power thicknesser. Unless you're working with a 1/2 inch thickness, the thicknesser will remove the cup.

"low spots on the ends" is snipe. It is a problem with hand planes as well as with machinery. You need to apply some pressure on the toe at the beginning of the board and apply pressure at the heel at the end of a board to avoid this problem. I rather like to lift the heel a bit at the beginning and lift the toe a bit at the end of a stroke. Did you wedge the board to keep it from rocking while you were planing? Also, you shouldn't be applying much downward force when planing.....that tends to give inaccurate results. Needing to apply a lot of downward force is also a sign that your iron is getting dull.

Let's see what else I can think of....you should skew the plane when trying to face joint a cupped board. This helps you remove the cup as well....and jointer planes generally should be moved parallel to the grain. Scrubs and jacks (cambered irons) are used diagonal to the grain. Well, that is how I do it anyways. Also, you need not go to a jointer plane if feeding a power thicknesser. I often stop after scrubbing and feed the loud monster.

Tim

I think snipe with planes comes from soles that need flattening or are not flat. In fact it is usually a sure sign that the sole is not flat. Convex, looking at the sole from the side, the iron is not supported as you run it off the end of the board, it takes a deeper and deeper cut as you approach the end. Flatten the sole and it goes away. None of my LN's or Veritas snipe, I can run them right off the end. If my woodies snipe, I flatten them.

Gene

[Alan Tolchinsky]

[QUOTE=Tim Sproul]Alan,

"If you are going to feed a power thicknesser, there is no need to remove the cup. Get the edges of the cupped face flat and parallel (no twist) and then feed the power thicknesser. Unless you're working with a 1/2 inch thickness, the thicknesser will remove the cup."

Hi Tim, I've tried that method with limited success. I've found that even with the perimiter of the board flattened there would usually be a concave area that would prevent the board from being planned flat. When I get one side perfectly flat whether power jointer or by hand, then when I power plane the other side, the board turns out perfect.

I have used shims to support a board on a carrier and then sent in through the planer with good results.

I think the thickness of the board makes a big difference in the outcome as you suggest in your post. Thanks Alan

[Alan Tolchinsky]

[

"if too much cup, ripping and then flattening is one approach. If you need that wide a board, I'd opt to choose a different one and use the heavily cupped board for pieces that don't need the width."


and I have plenty o' metal tools too! :D[/QUOTE]


Yes this makes sense to me as far as ripping, jointing, planing, and gluing. It's a lot easier than what I've been doing lately. :)

[Mike Wenzloff]

Oh I don't know. "Snipe" from using handplanes is the result of poor technique. Even if a handplane is out of true, it isn't enough to cause more than nearly unmeasureable snipe on a board.

Catching a board's edge due to too aggresive a cut, ramping into the board's edge or droping the toe off the end will always cause a bit of snipe. Same applies to face planning.

When hand planning is not working as we know it ought, blades are sharp and adjusted properly for the task at hand, it is more than likely operator error.

Mike

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Alan, preparing stock is a basic skill [I am not saying that it is easy]. My advice is to at least buy some video's or hopefully take a class. Rob Cosman has excellent video's available at the Lie Nielsen web site. Peter

[Gene Collison]

Oh I don't know. "Snipe" from using handplanes is the result of poor technique. Even if a handplane is out of true, it isn't enough to cause more than nearly unmeasureable snipe on a board.

Catching a board's edge due to too aggresive a cut, ramping into the board's edge or droping the toe off the end will always cause a bit of snipe. Same applies to face planning.

When hand planning is not working as we know it ought, blades are sharp and adjusted properly for the task at hand, it is more than likely operator error.

Mike

Poor technique could be part of it, but I have found if you have a convex (side view) sole you are not going to get good performance. You should be able to push a plane off the end of a board by the tote only without it trying to take an increasing deeper cut. This is of course assuming the board is flat and the plane is set for a light smoothing cut. If you are unable to do this I would say there is a problem with that sole. I do it all the time.

Gene

[Tom Saurer]

I've done some flattening with hand planes. I use a scrub and a #4. Not saying it's the best way, but it's all I have. I would love to have a #7 or #8 to help.

Usually what I do it first remove all the cups. I don't touch the otherside.

After the cup is gone I remove the twist. I take two winding sticks and place somewhere on the board and leave it there. This is my reference point against which I will flatten the rest of the board. The old cupped side should be facing up. Using the other winding stick I determine how the board twists. What I will then do is plane down the high points of the twists. I don't touch the low ends. Once I get the two winding sticks parallel I leave that point alone and move on to the next one, covering the entire board.

So far I've had good resaults using this method. There is a video out called Rough to Ready, which describes how to hand plane a board so it's the proper thickness and straight. I haven't seen it, but I would like to.

[Michael Perata]

There is a video out called Rough to Ready, which describes how to hand plane a board so it's the proper thickness and straight.

It is definitely worth acquiring if you are new to hand planes. Rob Cosman has a series of DVDs providing a good platform for learning hand tool use.

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/library.html?cat=6

[Keith Hooks]

I've had some success removing cupping from boards in the planar. The problem is that the feed rollers will temporarily flatten the board and once the pressure is removed, they'll return to their cupped (albiet now very smooth) shape. Taking light passes will reduce the pressure from the feed rollers and not deform the board so much. Shims work really well because they'll keep the board from deflecting.

Twist is another matter. I don't know of any way to remove it other than by using a sled.

I would love to be able to flatten a board by hand. That's one of my goals!

[Jerry Palmer]

First off, a jointer is not the thing I would be wanting to face a board with. And facing is not something the plane does on its own, regardless. You've got to determine the areas that need wood removed and finesse the plane to remove it. A shorter courser cutting plane would speed the process up immensely.

I, too, have used very light cuts on a tailed planer to flatten cupped board. While the cup does flatten a bit under the rollers, with the light cut, it does not flatten out completely, leaving a flat top on the piece. Each succesive pass widens that flat till it spreads across the entire width. Does seem to work better with hader, more brittle woods.

[James Owen]

....I would love to be able to flatten a board by hand. That's one of my goals!

Keith,

Go for it! It's not that hard and is very rewarding. Start small and work your way up to longer/wider boards.

If you haven't seen them already, Rob Cosman's videos are very useful and informative.

As an aside, you'll discover that many Aikido principles directly apply to hand planing.

Good luck, and have fun.

James

[Mike Henderson]

Flattening a board by hand is one of those "hard/not so hard" things. It's not a hard skill to master - after all, that’s one of the jobs apprentices were tasked with. But physically, it’s very hard.

Most people, in my experience, learn to flatten a board by hand, then immediately go back to power jointers and planers with a new appreciation.

Be that as it may, I use a scrub plane to take out the high spots, then go diagonally and lengthwise with a 5 1/2 to take out the scrub marks, then follow with a 4 (or 4 1/2) taking very light cuts to smooth the board - checking all the time with winding sticks to make sure the board is straight and true.


But that's the planes I have. You could probably do it with others.

Mike

[Mark Singer]

There have been some great responses to this thread and some information that is not accurate. Snipe using handplanes is almost always the result of poor technique....as Mike W. stated. Peparing stock and making flat panels from edge joining boards is a very basic woodworking technique and should really be perfected to build furniture... I think most of the problems usually occur in the glue up or even before if the boards have not been flattened. I just finished a 3'-4" x 6'-7" panel which was made up of 7 boards in about 1 1/2 hours and it is virtually dead flat...the key is in proper glue up techniques and stock preparation. I used a #80 and a 112 to prepare the panel and then a bit of sanding... I think learning this correctly is one of the keys to making solid wood furniture and good instruction is very important!

[James Owen]

Hi again, I posted yesterday about having problems flattening a small table top about 14"x 25". I wound up getting that pretty flat before sanding. Then I tried to flatten one side of a 9" x 25" maple board just to see if I could do it.

Well I couldn't. I used my #7 plane with very sharp blade at a 25 degree grind. The board was cupped all along the center lengthwise and had some twist in it according to my winding sticks.

I first planed the edges to reduce some of the cup. Then I started planing diagonally across the width from one end of the board to the other in a cross hatch pattern. I kept using my straight edge and winding sticks to check on flattness and twist in the board.

In the end all I got was a mess. :( There were low spots on the ends and it was way out of flat after working hard for an hour. At least I got some good exercise. (See a silver lining after all!)

So I went back over it with the winding sticks to get one side flat enough to go through the planer. After planing, the board was still slightly out of flat I'm sure due to the fact I hadn't properly flattened one side before planing. So I'm stumped for today but I haven't given up. I still want to learn how to do this but I'll give my arms a day to rest. At least my wife likes my new albeit temporary pumped up look from all the hard work. :)Alan (sore in Md.)

Alan,

Hope you tried again.

You're probably already familiar with the following techniques, so I'll post it for anyone reading this thread that isn't.

James

__________

Hand planing (rough) lumber to dimension is not hard:

Ideally, you need 5 planes: a scrub plane, a #5, a #7 or #8, a #4 or #4-1/2, and a low angle block plane, but you can get away with a #5 and a low angle block plane -- it's just a little harder. (Or you can use the wooden plane equivalents.)

You'll also need a good straight edge, an accurate try or combination square, a marking/panel gauge, and a pair of winding sticks (you can make these yourself). A card scraper is also handy.

Select a board face for the reference face. Use a pair of winding sticks and a straight edge to determine the high and low spots. Mark the high spots and use the scrub plane to reduce them to the approximate level of the rest of the board. Check for twist with the winding sticks. Correct with the scrub, as necessary. By this time, you should have a roughly flat (length and width) board with no twist and with a lot of troughs in it. Use the #5 to remove the troughs from the scrub plane. (Planing diagonally or straight across the grain in both directions with the scrub plane and the #5 to remove the scrub troughs will significantly reduce tearout in most woods. Then follow up with the #5 by planing with the grain.) Once the troughs are mostly gone, use the #7 or #8 with the grain to plane the face flat. Once you get full length and full width shavings, you board is very, very close to FLAT. Check with the straight edge and winding sticks. Correct as necessary. Finish up with the smoothing plane (#4 or # 4-1/2). Use the scraper on gnarly grain that gives your smoother a hard time, but be careful not to scrape a dip into the wood. Part 1 of 6, complete.

Mark this face as your reference face. All other measurements of square, etc, will come from this face.

Select one long edge, and use the #5 to roughly flatten/smooth it, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. Mark this edge as your reference edge. Part 2 of 6, complete.

Use the reference edge and the try/combination square to mark one of the short edges square. You can use the #5 to plane to rough plane it flat and square to both the reference face and edge -- if the short edge is 4 to 6 or more inches wide; if not, then start with the LA block plane. (Chamfering the edges down to your cutting line will reduce tear out on the corner edges; alternative methods are to clamp a sacrificial piece of wood to the edge and let it tear out instead of your board, or to plane in from each outside edge.) Use the LA block plane to clean it up. Mark the other short edge to the desired length (saw it to rough length, if necessary) and do the same thing to the other short edge. Parts 3 and 4 of 6, complete.

Use your combination square or a marking/panel gauge to mark the other (unplaned) long edge to the desired finished width. As you did for the reference long edge, use the #5 to roughly smooth it down almost to the cutting line, and then use the #7/#8 to make it straight and square to the reference face. Check for straight and square to the reference face and to the 2 short edges. All 4 edges should now be square to the reference face and square to each other. Part 5 of 6, complete.

Use your marking gauge, basing off the reference face, to mark the thickness of your board around all 4 edges. Flip the board over to the unplaned face and use the scrub plane to plane down almost to the marked reference lines (The bottoms of the troughs should be about 1/16 inch above the cutting line). Use the #5, and the #7 or #8, as before on the reference face to make this face flat and square. Finish up with the smooth plane and, as necessary, the scraper. Part 6 of 6, complete.

At this time, you should have a board with 2 flat, smooth, and parallel faces, 4 flat and square edges (long edges parallel to each other, as well as short edges parallel to each other, and all 4 edges square to the two faces and to each other), and of the required thickness, length, and width, ready for whatever needs to be done next.

The first board you do by hand will take what seems like an inordinately long time, but with just a little bit of practice, it becomes nearly as fast as -- and often faster than -- putting a board through a jointer, thickness planer, and sanding sequence.

A couple of things to keep in mind:

-- Keep your plane irons SHARP!!

-- If you have only a couple of planes, open the mouth up for the initial rougher planing, and close the mouth for the finer, finish planing.

-- Let the plane do the work -- don't force it.

-- Try to remove a roughly equal amount of wood from each face; if you don't, the wood will sometimes cup or twist again -- due to internal stresses released by planing -- after you have spent all that time and effort making it flat.

-- Skewing the plane often helps reduce tear out and makes planing easier.

-- Expect to get a good upper body work out!

This is not the only sequence that it can be done in, but it works quite well.

Good luck, and have fun! There's nothing quite like the sense of accomplishment you get when you have taken a piece of rough lumber and turned it into a nicely finished, dimensioned, board using only hand-powered tools.

[Derek Cohen]

Alan

Why are you using a #7 to flatten a cupped and twisted board? Why not a scrub plane first?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Alan DuBoff]

Why are you using a #7 to flatten a cupped and twisted board? Why not a scrub plane first?Seems he could use a fore jack for that also, weren't they intented to be hoggin' off material? At least my understanding is that the fore jack was designed to take more off than the jointers, in preparation for the jointers.

[Hank Knight]

Seems he could use a fore jack for that also, weren't they intented to be hoggin' off material? At least my understanding is that the fore jack was designed to take more off than the jointers, in preparation for the jointers.

Alan, I thought a jack was a #5 and a fore plane was a #6. Is a fore jack a # 5 1/2? :rolleyes:

[Jim Goldrick]

Alan,

I've had troubles like that, especially starting out. One technique that works for me on a troublesome board:

1. Make sure the surface of the bench you are working on is flat. Any imperfections in the bench will probably be reflected to the board.

2. With the cup down, check for rocking in the board. If you can push on the edges and the board moves, flip the board over and knock down the high spots until the board no longer rocks. You don't need to take the cup out yet.

3. Once the board sits stable with the cup down (no rocking), use a jack or scrub to flatten the crowned face and remove twist. Put shims under the cup in several places to keep it from bending under the pressure of planing. Start your stroke with downward pressure on the tote, then pressure on both tote and handle in the middle and end the stroke with pressure on the handle only. Doesn't take alot of force downward. Use some paraffin or wax on the sole of the plane to reduce friction.

4. For bad twists I find it helps to plane at an angle to the board, across the grain. For cups, generally with the grain. Basicaly, you will probably do both with a board with both cup and twist, especially if pronounced.

5. Once the board is flat, go over it with #7 if needed, then use a marking guage to set the thickness on all four sides, using the flattened face as a reference. Leave a 32nd or so for smoothing. This and the stroke technique above are your best protection against snipe. You can tell when one side or end is closer to thickness than the others and adjust accordingly. Check every few strokes at first, until you get comfortable with it.

5. Flatten the other face with the jack almost down to the lines scribed from the marking gauge. Now go down with the jointer, then smooth with a #4. Smooth other side. I like to use a vernier caliper to check the thickness, as it is easily reset to the exact measurement.

This should produce a board very flat ( <= 1/16) though some boards just don't want to become truly flat. It is a good idea to try to take the same amount off both sides, as mentioned above, but sometimes this is not practical with a troublesome board. If you set it aside, make sure to set it so both faces are exposed to the air. This way the board changes moisture content on both sides.

HTH

jim

[Derek Cohen]

Jim

That is very well described. I would agree with you in all respects bar one, that is, I do not like using shims to stabilise a board since these are difficult to keep in place. I prefer to remove all the high spots and have the board sitting flat without external aids.

For a full pictorial demonstration of the "rough to ready" process, have a look at my review of the Veritas Scrub Plane:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/theLeeValleyScrubPlane/index.asp

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Goldrick]

Thanks, Derek. I take that as a real compliment. Very nice review. I have the ECE and have often wondered about a metal scrub. But since I got a bandsaw, I find myself rarely using a scrub anymore. Mostly jacks, jointers and smoothers. Oh, and of course the ever present block plane.
I did recently get a stanley 606 and fitted a hock blade into it. I was surprised to find it lighter (when I got home) than my clifton jack. It cuts well, but I think I need to work the blade a little more. It's just not a smooth as I expected.

jim