Something better than masking tape from HD?

[Mike Audleman]

Ok, until now its all been fun and one-off projects. Now I got the idea to make up a batch of keychains for the range picnic next weekend. I wanted to cut 49 out of some 12x12 ply I had. Good plan, I thought.

I first covered the entire sheet with masking tape. Wide roll. I had to put like 4 or 5 strips across to cover the board. Got that done. Now in the laser for engraving and cutting. Ok, that went ok. Didn't take long either.

Then I spend like 3 hours peeling masking tape off each individual keychain. There must be a better way, and faster. I would like something I can go get from a local store as I don't have time to order and get it shipped here and get more made by Saturday.

So, what is a better way to protect the surface of the plywood from smoke damage/coloring? I am open to any suggestions. I just got back from Home Depot with a load of plumbing fixtures to make my water cooling more finished (mounting els and nipples on the bucket lid) and professional looking. I also picked up a ball valve and two barbs to allow me to adjust the airflow to the head. I still didn't get parts for the air accumilator. They were out of brass barbs.

So any thoughts on different techniques or different tape or other surface protector preferably with a local source?

[Rich Harman]

You could spray the material with a fast drying clear finish, then laser. It may wipe clean or you might need to hit it with a sander.

[Dee Gallo]

I apply a finish first and then just smear some dishwashing liquid over the whole thing before lasing. Then, the smoke just rinses off easily and quickly.

[gary l roberts]

Dee, like the dish soap idea after the sealer. Use in on the CNC when cutting metal, now I'll try it on the Laser.
Thanks.

[Mike Audleman]

Don't think the idea to wash it would be good. Its plywood. Water would soak into where the laser etched out the design and would swell the wood and raise the grain. If it were plastic then yea, maybe the soap idea might be a go.

Here is the project..
295482

[Mike Audleman]

Forgot to ask. Are there better masking tapes for what we do here than the generic stuff from Home Depot? I tried the blue stuff, seems no different as far as clean up and it has a plasticy smell when lasered so I was worried about fumes from it. I went back to the standard masking tape.

[Rich Harman]

Forgot to ask. Are there better masking tapes for what we do here than the generic stuff from Home Depot? I tried the blue stuff, seems no different as far as clean up and it has a plasticy smell when lasered so I was worried about fumes from it. I went back to the standard masking tape.

Yes, transfer tape.

[Scott Shepherd]

Yes, transfer tape.

2 votes for transfer tape.

[Mayo Pardo]

Is it just the little bits of tape that are the problem or is it the adhesive (or maybe both?)

Mineral spirits will loosen up the adhesive. Naptha will also but it's more toxic than mineral spirits.
Depending on the tape, rubbing alcohol might work well also.
The mineral spirits will leave a slight odor - even the "odorless" variety. The wood itself is going to smell a little like a camp fire anyways. The rubbing alcohol should just evaporate and leave little to no alcohol smell.

I would lean towards spraying a clear coat before lasering, as mentioned above. Then just wipe off with a slightly damp towel.

[Gary Hair]

I wouldn't use tape at all. I'd put a coat of finish on the wood, if it isn't finished already, and then use denatured alcohol for cleanup. If you clean them without removing from the laser (leaving them in the sheet you cut them from) it will be pretty quick and easy to cleanup. I do this often with wood, rowmark and acrylic.

[Julian Ashcroft]

For that type of design, could you do the raster engraving first, then tape over and then do the cut? Positioning of the plywood is important each time, but that could easily be sorted.

[Mike Null]

Like others have said-use clear coat.

[Mike Audleman]

Yes, transfer tape.
Where would I look locally for it? Sorry, I am not in "the business" so I don't have all the contacts that many of you do.


Is it just the little bits of tape that are the problem or is it the adhesive (or maybe both?)

Mineral spirits will loosen up the adhesive. Naptha will also but it's more toxic than mineral spirits.
Depending on the tape, rubbing alcohol might work well also.
The mineral spirits will leave a slight odor - even the "odorless" variety. The wood itself is going to smell a little like a camp fire anyways. The rubbing alcohol should just evaporate and leave little to no alcohol smell.

I would lean towards spraying a clear coat before lasering, as mentioned above. Then just wipe off with a slightly damp towel.

Its both the little bits of tape and the adhesive, I think. The little bits (like centers of O's, A's B's etc) and a pita at this scale to get off. I have been using my fingernail to get most of it off but the small fiddly bits like to crawl down in the engraving channels where I gotta pick em out.

As far as the adhesive, I think it softens and turns into a gooy substance thats very sticky. I assume its also mixing with the tar and resin of the vaporized wood. Thats why I asked if there was a better brand/type of tape that might reduce the adhesive goo issue.

When I was done, my fingers and nails looked I had just chain smoked a whole carton of cigarettes (yuck) and were stained a yellowish color. Took a lot of hot water and soap to get it off.


For that type of design, could you do the raster engraving first, then tape over and then do the cut? Positioning of the plywood is important each time, but that could easily be sorted.

During engraving, a lot of staining occurs so I don't think taping after engraving is the answer, unfortunately. I think there is more smoke/resin produced from the engraving than the cutting to be honest. And yea, repositioning would require some sort of jig be made but its doable.


Like others have said-use clear coat.

Any recommendations on a clear coat to use? After sanding, I have been using my stock of decades old Deft satin lacquer aerosol (white cans, simple black print, no color). I can't imagine using that stuff to prevent staining given its $10-$15 a can. And I am quite positive denatured alcohol will take the lacquer right off. I assume I would have to be looking at an enamel clear coat spray? We talking a cheap clear coat enamel from Home Depot or something specific?

This project was intended to be bare wood trinkets, no finish. You know, wood nickel sort of thing. I sanded the sheet whole before applying the tape so I wouldn't have to sand each one individually. Was I wrong in this thinking?

[David Somers]

Mike,

I think everyone is right suggesting a clear coat rather than tape, given your experience with all the little teeny bits of tape you have to remove. I will let them suggest the clear coat type they prefer. But I suspect something simple and low cost like a water based sanding sealer would do the trick. Lets see what folks have to offer?

But if you do need a masking tape, the folks at Rabbit have suggested the tape from Harbor Freight. It is a cheap tape, but apparently it works quite well for them as a mask when lasering. If you have a HF near you or can mail order some you might try it. This is quoted from their web site.
Masking tape is used during daily operations to protect the surface of the materials from residue. Example: Place a wide stripe of tape on a piece of wood and engrave your name thru the tape. The fumes/residue is blown down onto the tape.. not into the wood. Redmove the tape after the residue is dry. The wood is protected from discoloration. The best tape for laser application is found at Harbor Freight. The Harbor Freight product has much less glue to burn, less plastic in the "tape" to burn, more paper in the "tape" that burns easily for marking and cutting. My experience says the Harbor Freight tape works very well and is a fair price.


For the use you are describing here though I think a coating is your better bet. And as always, keep in mind you are being given free advice from the laserless one on the forum! <grin> (though I am actively working on that)

Dave

[Mike Null]

Mike

I would sand then apply a clear coat. If I have it I use lacquer but spray on polyurethane will work. If you're going to use dna for cleaning don't use acrylic. If you want to use acrylic then use mineral spirits to clean.

Transfer tape is very handy to have around the shop, though not for this job. You can buy it from sign supply houses and I'm sure you have several in Milwaukee. Buy it by the log and have them cut a 12" roll, a 2" and a 6" and whatever else you want to make up the 54".

[Scott Shepherd]

We use the tape, not the clear coat. Plastic razor blades make quick work of all those little bits.

[David Somers]

I do love this forum Scott! I have never heard of plastic razor blades before. Cool! Will grab some and play with them. Thanks!! As always!! <grin>

Dave

[Glen Monaghan]

Perhaps you could apply a high-tack tape over the top when done, and then peel it back to lift off all the little bits of the tape left over from engraving. Sort of like body waxing...

[Kev Williams]

Not to sound insensitive, but I wouldn't do anything except mask, engrave, and peel. You'll spend more time (and money) prepping for an easy peel that just peeling would take.

Peeling masking of laser engraved items comes with the job. Like Steve says, plastic razor blades work well...

[Ross Moshinsky]

When the job requires it, you do what you have to. Clear coat and transfer tape have their pros and cons. Transfer tape would be lower on my list because it would take 2x long to engrave.

My real suggestion is to be smarter with your material choice. Black acrylic for example may cost $5 more but would take less time to produce with essentially no cleanup after. There are benefits to higher material costs when it drops labor costs, even on fun freebies.

[Scott Shepherd]

Transfer tape would be lower on my list because it would take 2x long to engrave.

You lost me on that one Ross. What do you mean it takes 2x longer to engrave? I've never slowed our machines down to engrave taped pieces.

[Ross Moshinsky]

You lost me on that one Ross. What do you mean it takes 2x longer to engrave? I've never slowed our machines down to engrave taped pieces.

Well I engrave bare wood at 60 speed and wood with tape at 20 or 30 speed. Twice as long. One of the downsides of having 30W.

[Scott Shepherd]

Well I engrave bare wood at 60 speed and wood with tape at 20 or 30 speed. Twice as long. One of the downsides of having 30W.

Gotcha. No speed difference at 75W, just for reference.

[Mike Audleman]

Mike,

I think everyone is right suggesting a clear coat rather than tape, given your experience with all the little teeny bits of tape you have to remove. I will let them suggest the clear coat type they prefer. But I suspect something simple and low cost like a water based sanding sealer would do the trick. Lets see what folks have to offer?

But if you do need a masking tape, the folks at Rabbit have suggested the tape from Harbor Freight. It is a cheap tape, but apparently it works quite well for them as a mask when lasering. If you have a HF near you or can mail order some you might try it. This is quoted from their web site.
Masking tape is used during daily operations to protect the surface of the materials from residue. Example: Place a wide stripe of tape on a piece of wood and engrave your name thru the tape. The fumes/residue is blown down onto the tape.. not into the wood. Redmove the tape after the residue is dry. The wood is protected from discoloration. The best tape for laser application is found at Harbor Freight. The Harbor Freight product has much less glue to burn, less plastic in the "tape" to burn, more paper in the "tape" that burns easily for marking and cutting. My experience says the Harbor Freight tape works very well and is a fair price.


For the use you are describing here though I think a coating is your better bet. And as always, keep in mind you are being given free advice from the laserless one on the forum! <grin> (though I am actively working on that)

Dave

I have a HF only a couple miles from the house. I will stop by on the way home and get a roll or two. And I will report any difference between it and what I have been using from Home Depot.


Mike

I would sand then apply a clear coat. If I have it I use lacquer but spray on polyurethane will work. If you're going to use dna for cleaning don't use acrylic. If you want to use acrylic then use mineral spirits to clean.

Transfer tape is very handy to have around the shop, though not for this job. You can buy it from sign supply houses and I'm sure you have several in Milwaukee. Buy it by the log and have them cut a 12" roll, a 2" and a 6" and whatever else you want to make up the 54".
For transfer tape, which of these products?
www.nglantz.com/storefrontCommerce/breadcrumbSearch.do?breadcrumb_path=Product+Catego ries%2f%2f%2f%2fPaper%2c+Masking+and+Sandblast%2f% 2f%2f%2fMasking&elementsPerPage=50&displayThumbnail=true&numResults=50&sort_type=ASC&sort_column= (http://www.nglantz.com/storefrontCommerce/breadcrumbSearch.do?breadcrumb_path=Product+Catego ries%2f%2f%2f%2fPaper%2c+Masking+and+Sandblast%2f% 2f%2f%2fMasking&elementsPerPage=50&displayThumbnail=true&numResults=50&sort_type=ASC&sort_column=)

I didnt want to use mineral spirits as it leaves an odd odor in wood thats hard to get out without coating with something. And as these are going in the hands of young adults and kids, I didn't want any chemicals or paints on them. Thats why I chose to try the tape route and only considered DNA as a solvent as it leaves no chemical residue to be concerned with.


We use the tape, not the clear coat. Plastic razor blades make quick work of all those little bits.

Plastic razor blades Oy! Ok, thats a new one. These? http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Help-5-pcs-Plastic-Razor-Blade/_/N-255s?itemIdentifier=102953


Perhaps you could apply a high-tack tape over the top when done, and then peel it back to lift off all the little bits of the tape left over from engraving. Sort of like body waxing...

Cringe...body waxing. Being a guy, just the thought of that hurts! Anyway, this? http://www.uline.com/BL_6059/3M-3743-High-Tack-Tape
Think ULINE has a presence in Milwaukee. Don't know if they have a retail outlet here though. Have to call.

Barring that, what about a spray adhesive on a sheet of printer paper or butcher wrap? I can get all the printer scrap I want from work, we go through reams of paper a week here so ending up with some print discards is a free thing. For an adhesive, thinking something along the lines of...
http://www.homedepot.com/p/3M-Super-77-16-75-fl-oz-Multipurpose-Spray-Adhesive-77-CC/100067550#product_description
My thought was to spray the paper. Then stick the medallions to it and peel them off and hopefully leave the masking tape stuck to the paper.

That work you think?


Not to sound insensitive, but I wouldn't do anything except mask, engrave, and peel. You'll spend more time (and money) prepping for an easy peel that just peeling would take.

Peeling masking of laser engraved items comes with the job. Like Steve says, plastic razor blades work well...

You are not being insensitive and I appreciate the comment. I am new at this and this is the first time I have done any mass production work with the laser. Doing one off projects and peeling the tape off isn't a big deal. But sitting peeling off tape from 50 little engravings made me curious if I was doing the right thing in using tape at all or if there was a better tape to use. And if what I am using and the way I am doing it IS the best way, well, then I would like to know that too. I am trying to learn if there is a better and more efficient method of accomplishing the task at hand and I don't think you would deny thats a wise thing to do. Would you not wish to find a better or more economical (both in material and labor) method of completing a tedious task especially if you had to do it yourself or worse yet, were paying someone to do it if you were in business? I think you would. And thats what I am trying to do here. Learn a better way to do this, if indeed there is one. And in so doing, become more efficient at using my laser. And when someone else new comes along looking for a solution to their similar situation, perhaps they will find this thread useful to them as well and can learn from what has been presented here. And, I think that too is worth the effort in asking.

[Scott Shepherd]

Application tape like this :

https://www.fellers.com/fellers-shopping/cat/application-tapes/sub/high-tack-application-tape/set/r-tape-high-tack-aplitape-4075-application-tape

I didn't see it on Glantz's link you posted, but I'm sure they carry it. It's a low cost item, not an expensive paint mask type product. It's made for transferring cut vinyl lettering off the backing sheet onto whatever you're putting it on.

Plastic razor blades like this :

http://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Double-Edged-Blades-Scraper/dp/B004623NU2

If you never use either for wood, and decide to seal things from this point on, you'll still get plenty of usage from both items. We use them both, almost daily.

[Mike Audleman]

Gotcha. No speed difference at 75W, just for reference.

There is a slight difference in the depth of engraving with vs without tape with my 50w machine. For reference I did those key fobs' engraving at 500mm/s (max speed on my machine) at 40% power (20w). With tape and without, the depth was very slightly different. If you set them side by side, you could tell which was done with tape but you really had to look close. I think the small details looked better on the wood with the tape opposed to the one without. Maybe that was a factor of having to sand it to remove the discoloration (another reason am looking for a better way of dealing with this). I have noticed that tape takes up about 2-5% of the power, so without tape, I would run 500 @ 35% and with tape 500 @ 40%. But, thats my machine, my wood :) YMMV is what yall keep telling me ;)

I was doing these at +500lpi as I wanted the detail on the fiddly bits. I suppose that was probably overkill too and slowed it all down more.

[Kev Williams]

Another suggestion I didn't think about at first: Just engrave the bare wood, and then wipe down with mineral spirits. Denatured Alcohol works too, but mineral spirits seems to cut the goo better. It'll get most or all of the goo off. If needed, then just lightly sand the surface afterwards. By far the fastest and easiest method, IF the spirits cleans off the goo to suit you.

I engrave logos on small wood boxes, this is how I do them. In fact, now that I think about it, I've never masked wood.

My BIL DEEP engraves cedar boxes, and has to mask them, the guck left behind is like half set epoxy...

[Mike Audleman]

Another suggestion I didn't think about at first: Just engrave the bare wood, and then wipe down with mineral spirits. Denatured Alcohol works too, but mineral spirits seems to cut the goo better. It'll get most or all of the goo off. If needed, then just lightly sand the surface afterwards. By far the fastest and easiest method, IF the spirits cleans off the goo to suit you.

I engrave logos on small wood boxes, this is how I do them. In fact, now that I think about it, I've never masked wood.

My BIL DEEP engraves cedar boxes, and has to mask them, the guck left behind is like half set epoxy...


Suppose cedar would do that. It is a high resin wood. One of the reasons its so good at repelling insects.

As I said, I was resisting use of mineral spirits due to the odor left behind and these were intended to be unfinished wood trinkets of the wood nickel nature. DNA is an option as it leaves no odor or chemical residue.

[Mike Null]

One, buy blank wooden nickels. Two, use a solution of a cleaner like Pinesol and water. That will lift all the residue.

[Rich Harman]

When I have used a clear coat I always either sand afterward or wipe with a damp rag. So I choose which clear coat to use based on how long it takes to dry. My best results are realized by sanding, clear coating, engraving, sanding, then clear coating again. Much faster than mucking with transfer tape, and ends up with a nice finish.

[Mike Audleman]

When I have used a clear coat I always either sand afterward or wipe with a damp rag. So I choose which clear coat to use based on how long it takes to dry. My best results are realized by sanding, clear coating, engraving, sanding, then clear coating again. Much faster than mucking with transfer tape, and ends up with a nice finish.

What sort of clear coat are you using? Polyurethane? Acrylic? Enamel? Lacquer?

And when sanding after engraving, doesn't the tar and crud gum up your sandpaper?

[Mike Audleman]

Think I have a bit of a shopping list...

Tape from Harbor Freight
Pledge (thought just occurred to me)
Pinesol :)
Adhesive spray from Home Depot.
Various clear coat sprays from Home Depot.
And another can of DNA.

Just looked at the MSDS sheet on Pinesol. They changed it! It doesn't have pine oil anymore! Boo to you Clorox!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine-Sol

[Rich Harman]

What sort of clear coat are you using? Polyurethane? Acrylic? Enamel? Lacquer?

And when sanding after engraving, doesn't the tar and crud gum up your sandpaper?

I'm no expert on the types of spray on clear coats. I just get what is fastest drying. There are at least a couple types that will dry real fast and not gum up when sanding. I am sure lacquer is one, I think I have used enamel also but I don't recall if that is the one that dries real fast.

I have also used brush/roll on water based polyurethane. It dries fairly fast and sands well too.

I generally prefer the satin finish over high gloss.

[David Somers]

Mike don't forget the plastic razor blades?

Bummer about Pinesol. I bet that changes the flavor a bunch. Oh. Wait. That would be Retsina, not Pinesol. Or was there a difference? Hmmmmmmmmm. <grin>

If you are using a motorized sander of some sort you can use a rubber sanding block to clean up the paper if needed. you generally mount the block to something solid, and then run the sander against the block till your paper is clean. Though to be honest, in most cases, it causes more problems than it solves since any spec of residue left on the paper will cause a gouge in the wood and do more damage that you need to sand away. Accept that sandpaper is an expendable item and don't get hung up on making it last and last.

Dave

[Chuck Stone]

Well I engrave bare wood at 60 speed and wood with tape at 20 or 30 speed. Twice as long. One of the downsides of having 30W.

I'm on 30w too, and it slows me down a LITTLE, not that much.
I do most of my engraving at 40 speed anyway (aging tube) but might
do it at 35 with tape. Can't say that I can SEE the speed difference.. the
speed on mine isn't linear that I can tell. (never quite got around to timing
it, and wouldn't know how to subtract the ramp up/down anyway)

[Mike Audleman]

Mike don't forget the plastic razor blades?

Bummer about Pinesol. I bet that changes the flavor a bunch. Oh. Wait. That would be Retsina, not Pinesol. Or was there a difference? Hmmmmmmmmm. <grin>

If you are using a motorized sander of some sort you can use a rubber sanding block to clean up the paper if needed. you generally mount the block to something solid, and then run the sander against the block till your paper is clean. Though to be honest, in most cases, it causes more problems than it solves since any spec of residue left on the paper will cause a gouge in the wood and do more damage that you need to sand away. Accept that sandpaper is an expendable item and don't get hung up on making it last and last.

Dave

Well, since I can't seem to figure out where to buy the plastic blades locally, I am resigned to having to search online for them somewhere. I have a thing against Amazon that I won't elaborate here due to the rules. So, since I can't find it listed at menards, home depot, etc, I have to search for it online and they probably wont be available to me for this current project. But, no I haven't forgotten them, they are simply out of the timeframe for this project (ie, the picnic is this coming weekend).

Its not trying to save a nickel on the paper. The residue seems to be a thick tar type substance thats not hard but is simi-liquid or is at least tacky and would be akin to sanding not completely cured paint (an instant sandpaper clogger!).

[Scott Shepherd]

Mike, try here.....

https://scraperite.com

They are the people that make them. I have no idea where they are, but you can order directly from them.

[Chuck Stone]

Well, since I can't seem to figure out where to buy the plastic blades locally,

If you need to get them locally (in a pinch) every auto parts store carries them.
They're with the pin striping and the paint sprayers. Auto body people use them
to remove masking and overspray.

[Rich Harman]

Mike don't forget the plastic razor blades...

Never used those, how do they compare to using an old credit card? A problem I have frequently when weeding is that the very small bits leave a smear of adhesive when trying to slide them off.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Never used those, how do they compare to using an old credit card? A problem I have frequently when weeding is that the very small bits leave a smear of adhesive when trying to slide them off.

I found using old business cards works well. The quality business cards that were made from thicker cardstock. Not the cheap, flimsy business cards.

[Mike Null]

I got mine from Grimco, the sign supplie, and the same place I get the transfer paper.

[Bert Kemp]

Yes clear coating the sheet first then just wipe off with a damp cloth. The water won't bother it. Also if you have to use tape try taking some masking or duck tape and use the sticky side to pull off whats left on the parts.

[Mike Audleman]

Yes clear coating the sheet first then just wipe off with a damp cloth. The water won't bother it. Also if you have to use tape try taking some masking or duck tape and use the sticky side to pull off whats left on the parts.

Tried both duct and masking tape in such a way. It won't stick to the tape I applied prior to engraving/cutting due to the residue.

Thats why I was considering the spray high tack adhesive on a sheet of paper. Thought maybe it would stick better.

Sorry, didn't get to shopping last night, GD10 needed homework help so that was first priority. She has vollebyall practice about the time I come home from work so I should get by the stores on the way home from work today.

[matt heinzel]

When we are done engraving and cutting we use Rubber Finger Pads to get the lit bits off. They work better if you turn them inside out first. You can get them at most office supply stores.

[Kev Williams]

Buy plastic razor blades? I just use the fresh cut edge of a scrap of rowmark! When it dulls, just shear it again. If you want a 'knife' edge, just hold it up at an angle and shear it!

[Tim Bateson]

I just don't get it??? Why use tape at ALL on wood???? Either clear coat with something like Shellac or touch on sander when done. A hand held sander is very fast and works even on small pieces.
FYI - If you are doing this for profit, all of that time spend taping and weeding is very $$$$.

[Mike Audleman]

I just don't get it??? Why use tape at ALL on wood???? Either clear coat with something like Shellac or touch on sander when done. A hand held sander is very fast and works even on small pieces.
FYI - If you are doing this for profit, all of that time spend taping and weeding is very $$$$.

Thank you Tim, for the comment and suggestion. This is a hobby for me, not a business. That said, I was using tape because I didn't know anything else to use. And sanding 50 little parts, I THOUGHT, would take MORE time than taping. I didn't realize the headache of removing the tape after the engrave and cut which is why I asked at the beginning of this thread if there was a BETTER way to do this. Thankfully, there have been several very good suggestions offered by very helpful individuals here for me to try and I intend to follow up on them in an effort to find which one works best for me. I am trying to learn better methods of doing something. Its that so wrong?

As for time taping, that only took a minute or two taping a sheet of ply. The time taking it off, however, is the point of this thread.

I honestly don't understand the backlash here when someone inquires on a better or proper method of doing something and the inherent attitude that someone new should already know the answer by default. I mean, honestly, did YOUR laser machine come with precise settings for every possible material you will ever cut or engrave? Did it explain in detail what to use to prevent smoke discoloring on every possible material you could put in the machine? Did it's manual explain in detail which tape to use, when to use that tape and when to use clear coat or what types of clear coat to use on what material? Did your router come with explicit instructions on the best possible methods of cutting dovetail joints? Did your sander come with every iteration of proper sanding techniques spelled out in the manual? Did your car come with a complete driving manual? I don't think so. Or did you find out those things by experimenting, making mistakes, and asking others if they knew better ways of accomplishing certain tasks? Hmm?


Anyway, to all those who offered constructive suggestions and solutions, thank you. I appreciate them. I look forward to trying out the different solutions.

[Bert Kemp]

Thank you Tim, for the comment and suggestion. This is a hobby for me, not a business. That said, I was using tape because I didn't know anything else to use. And sanding 50 little parts, I THOUGHT, would take MORE time than taping. I didn't realize the headache of removing the tape after the engrave and cut which is why I asked at the beginning of this thread if there was a BETTER way to do this. Thankfully, there have been several very good suggestions offered by very helpful individuals here for me to try and I intend to follow up on them in an effort to find which one works best for me. I am trying to learn better methods of doing something. Its that so wrong?

As for time taping, that only took a minute or two taping a sheet of ply. The time taking it off, however, is the point of this thread.

I honestly don't understand the backlash here when someone inquires on a better or proper method of doing something and the inherent attitude that someone new should already know the answer by default. I mean, honestly, did YOUR laser machine come with precise settings for every possible material you will ever cut or engrave? Did it explain in detail what to use to prevent smoke discoloring on every possible material you could put in the machine? Did it's manual explain in detail which tape to use, when to use that tape and when to use clear coat or what types of clear coat to use on what material? Did your router come with explicit instructions on the best possible methods of cutting dovetail joints? Did your sander come with every iteration of proper sanding techniques spelled out in the manual? Did your car come with a complete driving manual? I don't think so. Or did you find out those things by experimenting, making mistakes, and asking others if they knew better ways of accomplishing certain tasks? Hmm?


Anyway, to all those who offered constructive suggestions and solutions, thank you. I appreciate them. I look forward to trying out the different solutions.

read my lime green

[Tim Bateson]

I honestly don't understand the backlash here when someone inquires on a better or proper method of doing something and the inherent attitude that someone new should already know the answer by default.....

No backlash intended from anyone here. For every 10 people here, you'll find at least 8 different opinions. Based on experience, hear say, or just guessing. Some of us are really stuck on our opinions, others not so much so. Your job is to weed through the advice (good & bad), then find what works for you.

Also to Bert's point... the advice is free, but we all should help pay to keep this website afloat. I personally would have never made it through the 1st year without it. Seven years now, & I still depend on it.

[Chuck Stone]

I honestly don't understand the backlash

I blame it on a lack of fiber..

[Mike Audleman]

Ok, I had some time to experiment last night and I thought I would post my results and see what yall thought...

First, I went by HF and picked up a roll of wide and thin HF brand tape.
Then I headed to Home Depot and picked up some Rust-olium 2x Gloss Clear Coat spray and some HDX pine cleaner since PineSol no longer has pine oil in it (boo Clorox!).

I grabbed two scrap pieces of 3mm ply and sanded it using 240g paper and an orbital.

I masked off one section using the 3M Scotch Masking tape I had been using (from Home Depot).
I masked off another section using the HF Masking tape.
Then I clear coated one section using the Rust-olium clear coat. Allowed to dry for 10 min.

I made the same cuts in the same order on two different sheets (I only photographed one as both were virtually identical).
Here are the cuts:
http://www.wolfiesden.com/android/1024/2014-08-26_20-19-06_284.jpg
There is a slight burn mark on the top of the 3m tape one. I forgot I had used default settings for the raster on this file and I had the local settings set for cutting ply, not rastering it. Stopped and restarted the job with correct settings.

As you can see the 3M and the clear coat cuts look like they have taken more smoke coloring and indeed they have. From feeling them, they are noticeably more sticky feeling than the HF tape. The HF tape appears to have not let as much smoke residue adhere to it. Again, these were cut from the exact same position in the bed. I moved the board between cuts so the airflow and dynamics should all be the same between the cuts.

After removing tape...
http://www.wolfiesden.com/android/1024/2014-08-26_20-20-24_870.jpg
The 3M tape was again sticky and not that easy to remove. The HF tape was virtually identical in removal difficulty despite the fact it looks like less resin is on it.

I cleaned the top half of the clear coated item using DNA. I cleaned the bottom half with the HDX pine cleaner diluted 1:4 as recommended on the label. The water based product did indeed raise some grain as it eeked into the sidewalls of the engraving areas. The alcohol left no obvious sign it has been used.

Both taped items had a clean appearance but I could feel something was different between them and the chemical cleaned clear coated one (more than the fact they were bare wood and the other had a clear coat).

Here are the averaged cleaning times for each pair of items:
3M tape - 2:28 avg
HF tape - 2.19 avg
Clear - 10s avg

Here are some closeups..
http://www.wolfiesden.com/android/1024/2014-08-26_20-32-04_315.jpg
http://www.wolfiesden.com/android/1024/2014-08-26_20-32-10_81.jpg
http://www.wolfiesden.com/android/1024/2014-08-26_20-32-17_613.jpg

Notice anything?

Look closer at the HF tape! It allowed smoke and resin under it along the edges where the engraving was done! The 3M tape did not. The clear coat did not.

So, here is my review synopsis of the experiment...

------

3M Masking Tape (available many locations) - This provides good protection for areas not to be engraved. No problems with smoke and resin sneaking under it. Not easy to remove. The adhesive produces a stickyish goo that combines with the resins from the wood to produce a mess to clean any small bits off. This is my #2 choice of the three.

Harbor Freight Masking tape - This at first looked like it might be better than the 3M tape. Turned out it was just as messy and difficult to remove. And had the flaw that it allowed smoke resins under it during the cutting/etching process. So, it turns out worse than the 3M tape in the end. My lest favorite at #3.

Rust-Olium 2x Gloss Clear Coat (available many locations) - If you are ok with having your item clear coated, this seems to be the best choice for protection from smoke damage. Its reasonably priced and is quick to apply. The cleanup after engraving/cutting is substantially faster by leaps and bounds than either of the two tapes. If you require bare wood, then sanding will be required to remove the clear coat but I see that stage as way less hassle than fooling with gummy tape. This is my #1 choice right now.

------

Clear coat cleaners - Water. Almost a total fail. Barely touched the resins.

HDX 1:4 diluted - Worked well but since its water based, risk of grain raising and additional drying time. Cheapest solution that actually worked. Perhaps a stronger dilution 1:2 would allow you to use less on the rag and lower the grain risk.

DNA (Denatured Alcohol) - The best of all three. Immediately removed all smoke and resin residue. Left absolutely no smell or sign it had ever been used. Zero chance of grain raising. Risk of removing some clear coats (lacquer and shellac based are good examples). Most expensive as you are using it direct 1:1 but not cost prohibitive. A little goes a long way.

------

After the experiment, I sanded and clear coated a 12x12 sheet of ply. And ran the 7x7 job....
http://www.wolfiesden.com/android/1024/2014-08-26_21-36-54_911.jpg
Run time in the laser: 1:19:33.
Using the averages above, cleaning times would have been:
3M - 2.01hrs
HF - 1.8hrs (but sanding would have been required due to leakage under tape)
Clear - 8.2 MINUTES (ok, a little more due to handling of liquid and rags)

Around 2hrs cleaning! Yea, THAT it why I started this thread and asked if there was anything better!

Even with the additional 10min clear coat drying time before cutting/engraving, I am nearly 2 HOURS ahead!

What does the about 10 seconds wiping get ya?
http://www.wolfiesden.com/android/1024/2014-08-26_22-55-52_407.jpg
Right - Uncleaned, right from cutter
Left - 10sec of cleaning with DNA

As a result of this experiment, my choice of best performer is clear coating and using DNA as a cleaner. Its probably the most expensive in terms of materials use, but in the realm of ease of use and speed, its a total winner hands down. And it cuts the PER ITEM cleaning time from about 2.5 minutes down to 10 seconds! Clear coat's cost of materials clearly provides labor and time advantages.

I could now with the new shorter cleaning time, actually keep the laser cutter running jobs back to back. I could clean the prior job, throw another clear coat on them, sand and clear coat both sides of a new 12x12 sheet in less time than it takes to run the job in the cutter. And still have a nice half hour break while the job runs and the clear coats dry :)

Things I didn't try but may well eventually:
Dee's dish soap idea
Plastic razor blades (didn't have them at two auto shops I stopped at between HF and HD yesterday)
Additional types/brands of clear coat spray.

[David Somers]

Fun stuff Mike!! Thanks for such a good write up!

I need to pop a note to Ray and Carole at Rabbit and will let them know about your experience with the HF tape.

Dave

[Bill George]

Mike I find Krylon brand spray to dry much faster than anything RustOleum. In fact I am now using up a couple of cans of Automotive clear coat and it works great.

[Mike Null]

Mike

Nice tutorial! Now if you need to color fill those at some time just spray more of your clear coat into the engraved areas first.

[Mike Audleman]

Fun stuff Mike!! Thanks for such a good write up!

I need to pop a note to Ray and Carole at Rabbit and will let them know about your experience with the HF tape.

Dave

Welcome. I have said all along that I would report back when I had some concrete results.

The difference between the tape is virtually non-existent. Yes, the HF tape was slightly faster to remove. Slightly. But with the creep under it which would require additional time to remove/clean, its advantage is completely stripped away and actually would become more of a time sucking project.

Both tapes were applied the same. Both were smoothed and bubbles removed. Both seemed to adhere the same to the wood. And both sheets experienced the same results. So I must conclude that it wasn't anything I did different.

I had wanted the parts to be bare wood. But I am simply not willing to spend hour(s) peeling tape to get that result. I am ok with them being clear coated. More than ok :)


This little (or it was little) project turned into something way more than I had expected. I thought I would run 50-100 or so of these and hand them out as prizes at the picnic this weekend. When I showed them to the club president, she was ecstatic about them and insisted I let her steal a couple. She also said once the kids started getting their hands on them, the parents and other adults were going to be wanting them. She highly suggested I keep them hidden or make more and sell them! Her suggestion was about $1. I said how about $2 and the club gets a buck. She said that works.

So, here is my plan...
Each as far as materials go, costs <25c to produce (includes wood, DNA, clear coat, and rings). Total shop time for a set of 49 is about an hour and a half, most of that is sitting watching paint dry or a laser head zigging back and forth. Not actual work. Maybe 15min of actual work, including putting the rings on. The rings are from Michael's. Yes they are expensive and account for almost 3/4 of the total cost. If I had time, I am sure I could find the rings cheaper in bulk online but not in time for this coming weekend. I do have time for later events such as our deer sight-in in the fall as well as our winter annual meeting, both of which have huge turnouts of members and non-members wanting to join are not for several months from now.

For the future batches, I can reduce the expense further by locating a cheaper source for the rings. Short term, I am stuck at 25 a piece. I can further reduce the cost by alternate sources for the plywood. For ease, I was using the 12x12 sheets. $2.30 ea. The 12x24 sheets are $3.40 ea (local Menards) so I am down to $1.70 a batch if I cut those in half or make up a file to use the 12x24 sheets. Thats still buying locally. If I go for the 5x5 sheets I found locally, $15.60 for a sheet works out to $0.62 for a 12x12. So right there I am down from $2.20 to $0.62 per batch. If I get them from Michael here on the forums, it works out to approx $1.03 a 12x12 sheet (including shipping).

I figured maybe sell them for two bucks. Donate one buck to the club from each. I still make 75c off each one based on the current 25c per on materials. I sell 16 and I have paid for the materials for each batch of 49. That leaves the next 33 as pure profit. From each batch, the club gets $49. I take home $36.75 (after material costs). Not too shabby for a hobby :)



Fun stuff Mike!! Thanks for such a good write up!

I need to pop a note to Ray and Carole at Rabbit and will let them know about your experience with the HF tape.

Dave
As noted, I want to experiment with different clear coats, Krylon being one of them. Deft, and Formbys also on the list. I just grabbed the cheapest one on the shelf at Home Depot, think it was bout $3 a can. I am sure there are cheaper ones elsewhere, and I want to give those a go too.

[Mike Audleman]

Mike

Nice tutorial! Now if you need to color fill those at some time just spray more of your clear coat into the engraved areas first.

Not to derail my own thread...how do you color fill? I mean whats the general process? I had thought they might look cool inked somehow but I don't have the foggiest idea how. I tried spray painting while the tape was on, but it bled under and into the wood. Didn't think about clear coat first.

[David Somers]

Hey Mike!

If you do this search in Google you will get a slug of threads on the topic here in the Creek. The first few will be enough to enlighten you.

site:www.sawmillcreek.org "color fill"

It is a fun process. I do it on turned things that I have engraved by hand. And I tend to use metal powders for the infill, which get sanded and buffed down to a gloss and looks like solid metal with a slight brushed finish. Fun process. Not something I would for production work of course, but still fun.

Dave

[Martin Boekers]

Here is where I get my plastic razor blades from, a couple nice holders too. I started using plastic sheet scraps, but I like these better....

http://www.miniscraper.com/Ordering.html

They are perfect for JDS Hi-Gloss Mahogany Plaques with a fill. (in my opinion one of the best buys in our market) I used to hate doing them
but with these blades and a bit of Novus fine polish they are easy-peasy....

I'd recommend sealing these key chains on both sides, this will limit the chance of warping as the are used... key chains see a bit of abuse.


Good luck with these!

[Rich Harman]

Thanks for the write up, good info!

Did you try diluting the DNA?

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Mike...I use a clear coat on mine. I will spray 2-3 coats on BOTH SIDES... lightly steel wool each side in between coats and store in Kraft paper just like we ship them in.
MAKE SURE YOU TREAT EACH SIDE EQUALLY OR IT WILL CUP!!!!

Check which clearcoat to use first. Some will yellow over time. Some turn an amber color quickly.
(Search this forum and Keith had a good post about this some time ago.)

This method works EXCELLENT!!!! I even made the mistake one time of leaving a key-chain, I made, in my short's pocket. It made it through the washer and dryer without any issues. No swelling, no bleed. Nothing changed.

[Rich Harman]

I just don't get it??? Why use tape at ALL on wood????

I use transfer tape when I cut out kit parts that will be assembled by the customer. It takes me about two minutes to apply it to a 24"x 48" piece. The tape keeps residue off the parts and protects the parts until the customer gets them.

[Mike Audleman]

I use transfer tape when I cut out kit parts that will be assembled by the customer. It takes me about two minutes to apply it to a 24"x 48" piece. The tape keeps residue off the parts and protects the parts until the customer gets them.

And how does it work with engraving of those parts, such as these keychains I am making? As you can see, at least 50% or more of the surface area is being engraved. How would the transfer tape work in a situation like that?

[Rich Harman]

And how does it work with engraving of those parts, such as these keychains I am making? As you can see, at least 50% or more of the surface area is being engraved. How would the transfer tape work in a situation like that?

It works fine. It does take a couple minutes to remove all the little bits but since the end user does that and not me, well, it does't really matter.

[Mike Audleman]

Thanks for the write up, good info!

Did you try diluting the DNA?

Nope. At that point, isn't it just rubbing alcohol ? I thought that was just alcohol + water.

Its only $7 or so for a quart can of DNA. And I needed it anyway for the Cermark. And I think I could do hundreds of batches from one quart. I barely used half a cap full on a wash rag doing a full batch of 49.

And, adding water could raise the risk of grain raising would it not? Even though its mixed with alcohol? I haven't personally tested it. Guess I should before I make that assumption.

This works. Gets me through to the weekend. After that, I got time to fool with mix ratios, different clear coats and even the soap idea.

[hugh bunker]

I just lightly sand after. I use a festool random orbit sander and place the parts on a foam cabinet liner. Takes just seconds and it cleans up the engraved edges real smooth.

[Bert Kemp]

Not to sound insensitive, but I wouldn't do anything except mask, engrave, and peel. You'll spend more time (and money) prepping for an easy peel that just peeling would take.

Peeling masking of laser engraved items comes with the job. Like Steve says, plastic razor blades work well...
Kev I think were all suggesting a clear coat instead of masking.No just as a pre for masking.

[Mark Maslonkowski]

I make groups of key chains all the time. I laser a little deeper then needed, cut them out, pull the whole sheet put the cut outs back in the sheet then just hit the whole sheet with the sander cleans them up in minutes. Followed up with a blast of compressed air. No tape required.

[Mike Audleman]

Well, I made 150ish of them. Sold almost all of the 100 for the adults, and kids got 50 of them at the picnic. No way I could have done this with tape. Tape is too time consuming.

To be honest, it seems like it would have been faster. And it would be for larger parts with minimal engraving. But with so much of the surface being engraved like these keychains, clear coat was absolutely the way to go. No final sanding needed. No final coat needed.

I am still going to investigate some of the other methods suggested here as well as different clear coat sprays and diluting the DNA or try rubbing alcohol.

Sanding didn't seem prudent as the smoke resin would have quickly clogged the paper.

[Scott Shepherd]

Oh, I don't know, masking with transfer tape is pretty quick. Did this one recently. Took about 15 seconds to mask it, and about 15 seconds to remove the mask, scrape it with a plastic razor and be done.

295997295998295999

[Mike Audleman]

Oh, I don't know, masking with transfer tape is pretty quick. Did this one recently. Took about 15 seconds to mask it, and about 15 seconds to remove the mask, scrape it with a plastic razor and be done.

295997295998295999


Don't think the idea to wash it would be good. Its plywood. Water would soak into where the laser etched out the design and would swell the wood and raise the grain. If it were plastic then yea, maybe the soap idea might be a go.

Here is the project..
295482

Yea, and look at the % of engraved area of your project opposed to the % of my project. Yours, looks to be maybe 5-10% engraved area. Mine was close to 50% with a lot of cut off areas. Yours has vast areas where the transfer sheet would pull right off in a single big chunk. Mine required a lot of digging at it with fingernails to get hold of lots of small areas. Yours also appears to be physically larger than my 1-1/2" diameter disk and I think that plays into the situation as well.

So, as I said, its project dependent as to whether tape is faster or not. Some projects, like yours, yea, its lots faster than waiting for paint to dry plus the wipe down after cut/engrave. On mine, clear coat was substantially faster.

I am not saying tape is bad. Nor am I saying clear coat will always be faster. What I am saying is you need to look at the project and judge whether tape or clear coating will be faster in the long run.

My other weekend project, the IDPA target stands (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?221232-Made-a-batch-of-these-for-the-range-picknick) would have been faster with tape as there were simple straight areas of tape to remove. Had I not already had a sheet (from another project) already sanded and clear coated, I would have opted for tape on that project.

[Scott Shepherd]

I showed it as an example as to how the process works, for reference. As to it being relative to the engraving area, that's nonsense. In my experience, the smaller it is, the easier it is to deal with. Those plastic razor blades take it off in 1 swipe.

Also keep in mind, you haven't tried transfer tape, I don't believe. There's a huge difference in transfer tape and blue tape.

[Mike Audleman]

I showed it as an example as to how the process works, for reference. As to it being relative to the engraving area, that's nonsense. In my experience, the smaller it is, the easier it is to deal with. Those plastic razor blades take it off in 1 swipe.

Also keep in mind, you haven't tried transfer tape, I don't believe. There's a huge difference in transfer tape and blue tape.

I tried the blue tape at first. It didn't work out well at all. Yea, I missed you said transfer tape, sorry buddy. I am betting its much easier than masking tape. And remember, I was operating without the blades. They may indeed change things up.

Now that the "I gotta get it done for the weekend" issue is done, I can get some of these supplies yall suggested ordered and see where that leads.

BTW, I asked some friends at the picnic about those blades as I was curious if anyone else had heard of them. And I got nothing but bewildered looks and "they actually make such a thing?" type responses. They must be seriously underground only!

[David Somers]

Mike,

Plastic razor blades are mostly used by those of us with synthetic beards held on with spirit gum. Just FYI.

Scott...just curious, when you use the blades are you scraping it like you would a cabinet scraper? Or are you pushing it at a very low angle?

Dave

[Scott Shepherd]

Very low angle. I can't answer in reference to the cabinet scraper, never used one of those. Believe me, as much stuff as I have engraved over the years, I can promise you I wouldn't be doing something if I hadn't try just about every other imaginable way. I did a lot of engraved baltic birch at one time. Extreme levels of detailed engraving. The customer supplied the material and I wasn't about to sand and finish all his material for free and he wasn't interested in paying for it to make my life easier. Imagine detail like on the back of a playing card. It's just so simple, one swipe across it and it pops off everything in it's path. The transfer tape isn't stuck well enough to hold really tight.

Even when I have finished wood, I always use transfer tape. It makes for no clean up. Just scrape it and go.

Your mileage may vary or your work type may vary. I can only speak for what I have had to do.

[David Somers]

Thanks Scott!

Just so you know. A cabinet scraper is a funny device. It looks remarkably like a rectangular piece of sheet metal, but only because it is a rectangular piece of sheet metal. <grin> You run a burnishing tool, or even a fine file across one edge and that creates a burr on the edge. Then you rest the tool on the wood with the burr on the wood and towards you. Angle the piece towards you 10 or 15 degrees worth, put a little pressure on your thumbs to give it a slight bit of an arc, and pull it to you. The burr will take off the tiniest smidgeon of wood. A very very thin shaving. A really simple but effective tool.

I can see what you are doing with the plastic razor being effective on the tape. Will have to pop into some auto parts stores and see if I can find some and play with it.

So many ways to do the same thing. Just like on the wood lathe. Nice to have exposure to a number of methods and see what clicks best for you.

Thanks again Scott!!

[Mike Null]

Dave

I can spare you some heart ache. Put your cabinet scraper in a drawer never to be seen again. It is appropriately named (scraper) and it works wonders on hard woods in preparing them for finish but it is not the tool for this job. If you don't have plastic razor blades a credit card type scraper will do.

[Chuck Stone]

ll. Yea, I missed you said transfer tape, sorry buddy. I am betting its much easier than masking tape.

They might look the same, but they're not. You can get transfer tape in
low, medium or high tack. Low tack tends to fall off by itself when used
on unfinished wood. So it's nothing like the blue tape or other tapes you've
been trying. We know those don't work well in most cases (but might be
better than nothing in a pinch)
Transfer tape is meant to come off easily. It doesn't have the bond of the
other tapes. Often it will come off with a quick wipe with a towel.

As for the blades .. pretty much every auto parts store has them, so they're
not underground. (but they're VERY expensive in those stores) Look near the
Bondo and/or pin striping.. sanding pads etc.. whatever someone might use
to do some auto body repair/repaint. You can use regular single edge blades,
they're just more likely to scratch your work. I use the steel blades for stone
and the plastic blades on wood or acrylic.

[David Somers]

Thanks for the warning Mike!

I wasn't so much considering using an actual scraper for this as wondering what technique Scott was using with his plastic razor blades. And when he mentioned he wasn't familiar with a cabinet scraper I took a minute to describe how one was used. I agree, it would be a poor tool for this and probably do more harm than good. Apologies if I made someone think it might be a good tool for this purpose.

Dave

[Gary Hair]

Here are blades and a holder:
http://www.amazon.com/Scraperite-Plastice-Razor-Blades-Multi/dp/B007VSVQ52/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1409753764&sr=8-3&keywords=plastic+razor+blades

[Mikhail Lermontov]

I would try the clear coating for paint spray booths in body shops. Its like liquid plastic which can be peeled off later. Also, I would research which company produces a better quality liquid plastic which is easier to peel off. Check the video below to get the idea.

http://www.strippablecoating.com/paint_booths.aspx

[Bert Kemp]

I watched that video if you look thru their product list they actually have a mask for lasers. Kinda expensive at $60 a gal.

[Mikhail Lermontov]

I watched that video if you look thru their product list they actually have a mask for lasers. Kinda expensive at $60 a gal.

Good to know. Thanks Bert.

[Mike Audleman]

I watched that video if you look thru their product list they actually have a mask for lasers. Kinda expensive at $60 a gal.

Maybe, but whats the coverage area?

[Jeff Allram]

How would contact paper work? we use it to mask for painting letters and designs when we CNC router wood. Peels off fairly easy. cover the plywood, router the design, spray the paint, peel the contact paper.

[David Somers]

Jeff,

I am not certain of this, but isn't most contact paper a PVC material? That would rule it out for laser use, but not CNC routers.

[Scott Shepherd]

Jeff,

I am not certain of this, but isn't most contact paper a PVC material? That would rule it out for laser use, but not CNC routers.

Exactly Dave.

[Bert Kemp]

Maybe, but whats the coverage area?I thought of that after I made the post, but reading the article and reviews that were posted it said the Laser product was kinda thick so I just assumed(yea I know)that the coverage wouldn't be enough to make it worth the cost. Maybe a bad assumption on my part. Would be nice if they had some smaller sizes available so we could try it out with out a $60 dollar investment into an unproven product. added thought you would still have to remove all the little bits and pieces that don't come off with the first peeling. May be difficult to see them if its a clear finish.