Italian Invasion...... My New Toys

[Beau Cassidy]

After debating between Felder/Hammer and MiniMax I believe I have made the right decision. After 2 months of debating and 9 days from placing the order I got the call to come down and pick my stuff up- MM16 Bandsaw and FS 41 Classic 16 inch jointer/planer. The guys at MiniMax were on the ball getting things to me despite IWF. The got everything delivered to the closest terminal to my house. I had to go pick everything up because of work.

Beautiful site at the terminal...
http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20140821_185649_zpscn0evapy.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20140821_185649_zpscn0evapy.jpg.html)

Arrival home...
http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20140821_194909_zpsui4raoex.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20140821_194909_zpsui4raoex.jpg.html)

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20140821_194943_zpsnstdgs1q.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20140821_194943_zpsnstdgs1q.jpg.html)

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20140821_194932_zps3ppqkhzk.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20140821_194932_zps3ppqkhzk.jpg.html)

Unobxing the FS41
http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20140821_202956_zps2ilqho4j.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20140821_202956_zps2ilqho4j.jpg.html)

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20140821_203114_zps5vldbg0f.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20140821_203114_zps5vldbg0f.jpg.html)

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20140821_203920_zpszynbexgt.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20140821_203920_zpszynbexgt.jpg.html)

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/OrthoNP/20140821_203956_zpsoqtknd70.jpg (http://s437.photobucket.com/user/OrthoNP/media/20140821_203956_zpsoqtknd70.jpg.html)

By the time I got the box off the FS41 it was getting pretty late and I was dripping with sweat. It will be at least monday before I can get anything else done. It wasn't too bad moving 1201 lbs of stuff considering it was just me. You just gotta let gravity work for you. I will post further pictures next week.

[David Gutierrez]

Very cool!! congrats. post photos of the shop when done.

[Jim German]

Awesome! Why'd you choose the Italians?

[Mike Wilkins]

Hold on a second, I had to wipe the drool off the keyboard. Now. Sweeeeeet!!! Nice looking toys. I imagine it will be a few years before you wipe the grin off your face. I'm hoping to upgrade from a 12" to a 16" JP machine in a couple of years. Enjoy.

[Myk Rian]

Awesome! Why'd you choose the Italians?
Because they make great pizza? ;)

[Peter Kelly]

Great combo of machines. I pulled the trigger on an SC2 Classic yesterday. Can't wait to get it set up!

[John A langley]

I have four Machines of Mini Max equipment and you're going to love the Italian and stuff congratulations and good luck The bandsaw especially

[Edward Oleen]

Now all you have to do is build a new shop to house all that beautiful new equipment...

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Beau,

Congratulation! I can understand exactly how excited you are, because, coincidentally, I also got an Italian invasion two weeks ago!
My decision after the same process as yours was completely opposite, though :)

I got a Hammer A331 jointer/planer and Felder FB510 bandsaw.295387

My decision was not much based on product research because I thought we can't go wrong either way, anyway.
I originally thought that I'd upgrade from my Griz 14-inch BS to Hammer N4400, but knowing that FB510 is a newly designed product (and of course larger), I took a plunge. Actually, the new MM16-like dust collection chamber of the FB510 was a big factor (N4400 has only one DC port at the bottom), because I'm a bit too sensitive to dust, vibration, and noise (my shop is in the basement).

Anyway, I chose Hammer/Felder, primarily because Newcastle is only 1.5 hour away and they agreed to bring the machines by themselves all the way to my basement with the regular freight cost. The Silent Power helical head of the J/P was another factor, but, besides it IS quiet, the actual benefit is in debate. I prefer the euro-style jointer blade cover to the American porkchop, but again, this is a personal preference.

They uncrated the machines in my basement and after that I did all installation by myself. Once I manage to put them on the wheel, everything else was breeze.

One present surprise was that, even though the picture of the FB510 in the internet doesn't have a foot brake, it actually comes with it. FB510 was a bit cheaper than MM16 and I can see the reason from few differences;
1) the lower blade guide doesn't have a vertical (up-down) control and quite far from the table.
2) the two doors are connected: MM16 has two separate doors and two switches.
3) the vertical support column of the upper blade guide of MM16 has a more elaborated mechanism.

Besides these, fit & finish are no comparison with my older $400 14-inch BS.

One thing I'm surprised is, this BS is quite louder. The 14-inch BS is about 78-80 dB (very quiet) and FB510 is about 90-91 dB based on an iPhone app. The vibration is minimum with a nickel standing at all four corners. Without blade guides (and the zero-clearance plate in the DC chamber), it goes down by 2 db. So, the most of the sounds seem to come from the big wheels and long blade ripping through the air, but I'm not sure. The sounds and vibration actually seem going down a bit as I keep using. I'm curious about MM16 in this respect.

In any case, I know quite many people are interested in the BS and J/P we bought. Please keep us updated and exchange our information.

[Beau Cassidy]

Awesome! Why'd you choose the Italians?

I was a little turned off by the very direct approach from Felder- several calls...particularly if I went to their site. Not pushey but- well- I don't know- I just didn't like the coincidence of the calls and my site visits. Something which is not coincidental and previously mentioned by others. They certainly make good equipment and I did have a hard time deciding between the two. In the end either would have been great to have and it was basically a tossup as prices and accessories were similar.

[Beau Cassidy]

Hi Beau,

Congratulation! I can understand exactly how excited you are, because, coincidentally, I also got an Italian invasion two weeks ago!
My decision after the same process as yours was completely opposite, though :)

I got a Hammer A331 jointer/planer and Felder FB510 bandsaw.295387

My decision was not much based on product research because I thought we can't go wrong either way, anyway.
I originally thought that I'd upgrade from my Griz 14-inch BS to Hammer N4400, but knowing that FB510 is a newly designed product (and of course larger), I took a plunge. Actually, the new MM16-like dust collection chamber of the FB510 was a big factor (N4400 has only one DC port at the bottom), because I'm a bit too sensitive to dust, vibration, and noise (my shop is in the basement).

Anyway, I chose Hammer/Felder, primarily because Newcastle is only 1.5 hour away and they agreed to bring the machines by themselves all the way to my basement with the regular freight cost. The Silent Power helical head of the J/P was another factor, but, besides it IS quiet, the actual benefit is in debate. I prefer the euro-style jointer blade cover to the American porkchop, but again, this is a personal preference.

They uncrated the machines in my basement and after that I did all installation by myself. Once I manage to put them on the wheel, everything else was breeze.

One present surprise was that, even though the picture of the FB510 in the internet doesn't have a foot brake, it actually comes with it. FB510 was a bit cheaper than MM16 and I can see the reason from few differences;
1) the lower blade guide doesn't have a vertical (up-down) control and quite far from the table.
2) the two doors are connected: MM16 has two separate doors and two switches.
3) the vertical support column of the upper blade guide of MM16 has a more elaborated mechanism.

Besides these, fit & finish are no comparison with my older $400 14-inch BS.

One thing I'm surprised is, this BS is quite louder. The 14-inch BS is about 78-80 dB (very quiet) and FB510 is about 90-91 dB based on an iPhone app. The vibration is minimum with a nickel standing at all four corners. Without blade guides (and the zero-clearance plate in the DC chamber), it goes down by 2 db. So, the most of the sounds seem to come from the big wheels and long blade ripping through the air, but I'm not sure. The sounds and vibration actually seem going down a bit as I keep using. I'm curious about MM16 in this respect.

In any case, I know quite many people are interested in the BS and J/P we bought. Please keep us updated and exchange our information.


I was looking at the Hammer A431 and the Felder FB510. You must have been the guy the salesman (Craig) was talking about two weeks ago when I called them. The were having to go out and do a local delivery.

[Susumu Mori]

Hahaha, that's me~~~.

I'm still in the process of learning about the BS Euro-style blade guard. I would appreciate it if you share your experience with MM16.

As for A331, there is not much to adjust and it just performs. I wish I had A431. The 12-inch planer is a bit limiting...
Oh, as many had pointed out, the fence is definitely the weakest link of the Hammer J/P. That requires some learning to how to get around some slop, although it doesn't affect the accuracy once I get the hang of it.

[Susumu Mori]

Funny that I communicated only through emails and, although they eventually responded, sometimes I felt they could return emails sooner. They could be little more pushy for me....

I also communicated with Minimax by emails and he was super fast.

The customer service was through emails and calls and so far I'm quite satisfied. They do respond well.
My FB510 initially had strange sound and the service person immediately identified from my video that the cooling fan of the motor was touching the cover and, sure enough, the cover was dented. I also asked several silly questions and he has been very nice to me.

[Larry Edgerton]

Just a word of warning, the some guys get all sensitive when you tell how nice you're Ferrari handles. I say this as I walk out to my shop full of Ferrari's........;)

Larry

[Craig Hoehn]

Felder really needs to update their website on the FB-510. I was looking at one in the show room and noticed that it did in-fact have a shroud under the table, and had a foot brake, and I could even get it with ceramic guides (pretty much a copy of the Laguna guides). Better priced than the Laguna bandsaw too, but it’s still going to be a while until I have enough coin.

[Brian Holcombe]

Awesome! As Neander as I am, I am sooo wanting an italian bandsaw.

[Robert LaPlaca]

Not too sure what Tersa knives Minimax is delivering the machine with, mine came with Chrome and HSS knives.. Needless to say you really want to load the cutter head up with the M42 knives, they last the best and produce a beautiful finish...

[Keith Hankins]

Nothing like new toys, even if they ain't mine! Enjoy. Post more pics

[Matthew Hills]

FB510 was a bit cheaper than MM16 and I can see the reason from few differences;
1) the lower blade guide doesn't have a vertical (up-down) control and quite far from the table.
…

The lower guide for the MM16 is ~7" below the table. Think much of this is needed to accommodate the table's tilt.

Matt

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Matthew,

I saw some pictures of the MM16 lower guide, which has a long vertical adjustment mechanism, so it can go up and down depending the table tilt. Maybe that was a picture of something else.....

[Chris Padilla]

Ah, I remember that day so long ago when my FS41 Elite showed up at the house!

I can hardly believe it was almost 10 years ago!!

I should take a picture of my daughter now with the J/P...she is a bit, uh, bigger...as you can see in my profile pic! :D

[Beau Cassidy]

Mine came with a few sets of HSS knives. The M42 knives are on the list to get.

Chris,
My daughter is 15 moths old. I haven't gotten pictures of her with it yet.

I almost forgot to report I didn't bother telling my wife I bought everything until we were on the way to pick it up. I had the trailer hooked up to the truck for a trip to pick up a new bed. I just happened to go by the shipping terminal on the way home to get the toys. She didn't understand why I didn't put the bed on the trailer. She was good about everything, though. The guy at the terminal told me to call him if I needed a place to stay after telling the wife. At work this weekend so it may be a few days before I get more pics.

[Susumu Mori]

How dare you :eek:
Well, I bought mine while my wife is gone for 2 weeks and she is coming back today:cool:

Please pray for me.

[Jim Andrew]

Hope you guys do reviews with pics of your 16" combo jointer planers.

[Paul McGaha]

Congratulations Beau (and Susumu),

Beautiful new tools, I hope they serve you well.

PHM

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,
My daughter is 15 moths old. I haven't gotten pictures of her with it yet.

My daughter is 2.5 years old in those pictures. My how time flies by!!

[Larry Edgerton]

My daughter is 2.5 years old in those pictures. My how time flies by!!

My daughter crawled through my SCM planer so we could take her picture when I bought it, and she is thirty now with kids of her own. Yes time does fly. Everyone gets their time at the wheel......

Larry

[Beau Cassidy]

Congratulations Beau (and Susumu),

Beautiful new tools, I hope they serve you well.

PHM

I just saw this! Thanks.

So far I have gotten the bandsaw off the pallet and put the wheels on the mobility kit. It looks like I have to get a power cord for it..... Just assumed it would have one.

I got part of the J/P unwrapped but it is still on the pallet. The guard is waaaaay bigger than a 12 inch pizza. WOW! I guess I didn't realize how big it was going to be.

[Chris Padilla]

The "pork chop" guard is annoying at best. You might want to upgrade to the euro style guard. I did and then eventually removed it as well! LOL

Yeah, all these machines will require you to supply your own cord. They have no idea what kind of plug you might need. It is kind of like stoves...supply your own cord.

[Robert LaPlaca]

The "pork chop" guard is annoying at best. You might want to upgrade to the euro style guard. I did and then eventually removed it as well!

Let's add the euro guard as another must have add on for the Minimax j/p, the whole reason I say that is besides the pork chop being annoying as all get out, countless times it wouldn't return to the fence, which left the cutter head exposed.. Not saying the euro guard is perfect, for me I find it many times better, sure the euro guard head still gets in the way.. Martin sells a euro guard that folds down out of the way as an option on their jointer that looks really cool.

[Rod Sheridan]

The "pork chop" guard is annoying at best. You might want to upgrade to the euro style guard. I did and then eventually removed it as well! LOL

Yeah, all these machines will require you to supply your own cord. They have no idea what kind of plug you might need. It is kind of like stoves...supply your own cord.

Hi Chris, have you looked at OSHA requirements for jointer guards?

They require the spring loaded "pork chop" style in the USA, the bridge guard doesn't appear to be legal in the USA?

Regards, Rod.

[mreza Salav]

Congrat's on the new machines! it should be very exciting to use them.

[jack forsberg]

Hi Chris, have you looked at OSHA requirements for jointer guards?

They require the spring loaded "pork chop" style in the USA, the bridge guard doesn't appear to be legal in the USA?

Regards, Rod.

that interesting Rod. Has the american surty bridge guard been outlawed?


http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=1682




http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/14757-A.jpg

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/5756-C.JPG

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Rod,

That is what a MiniMax sales person told me. Euro-type guards are not OSHA approved and that's why MiniMax is using the pork chop. So, I assume if I run a pro-shop and one of the employees gets hurt, I (or the company) may get into a trouble.
I personally don't like to constantly fight against the pork chop while I'm pushing a board and much prefer the euro guard.

By the way, in the other day, I was face jointing 10-inch boards and now I don't know how I can live without A331, but I guess once I have a 16-inch jointer, I would feel the same....

Sorry Beau that I'm jacking your thread. We are anxiously waiting for your update ;)

[Erik Loza]

...That is what a MiniMax sales person told me. Euro-type guards are not OSHA approved and that's why MiniMax is using the pork chop.

I asked one of the trade unit managers once why every other mfr. of jointer/planer supplies the Euro-bridge guard as standard if it's not OSHA approved. His response to me was, "Probably because they haven't been sued yet...".

For folks who want the bridge guard for an MM product, it's available from the parts department as an accessory. It just can't be shipped installed on the machine. At least not in the US.

Here is the OSHA conformity requirement in case anyone is curious...

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/woodworking/jointers.html

"...with an automatic (spring-loaded, self-enclosing) guard that exposes the cutter head only when the stock is being fed. The guard must automatically adjust to cover the unused portion of the head, and it must remain in contact with the material at all times..."

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[jack forsberg]

I asked one of the trade unit managers once why every other mfr. of jointer/planer supplies the Euro-bridge guard as standard if it's not OSHA approved. His response to me was, "Probably because they haven't been sued yet...".

For folks who want the bridge guard for an MM product, it's available from the parts department as an accessory. It just can't be shipped installed on the machine. At least not in the US.

Here is the OSHA conformity requirement in case anyone is curious...

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/woodworking/jointers.html

"...with an automatic (spring-loaded, self-enclosing) guard that exposes the cutter head only when the stock is being fed. The guard must automatically adjust to cover the unused portion of the head, and it must remain in contact with the material at all times..."

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

All i can say is the pork chop is never on a EU machine because it does not meet the regs. i have both types and like the pork chop for small jointer and the bridge for larger jointers. it gets a little old walking around a 26" pork chop:cool: looks like the Surty bridge is compliant with the US regs as is the Swiss made suvamatic though the american would not spend that much on a guard to hang on the wall:rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft6MFmjmzhc

[Chris Padilla]

Hang on the wall?! That real estate is too valuable! Mine is on top of cabinet gathering sawdust for the last 8 years. :D

[Erik Loza]

I wish there was a US dealer for Suva products. They make some awesome stuff.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[jack forsberg]

Hang on the wall?! That real estate is too valuable! Mine is on top of cabinet gathering sawdust for the last 8 years. :D

I was kind enough to post a vid of and Oliver and not a Martin thought:p

[J.R. Rutter]

As Jack points out, OSHA doesn't specifically require a porkchop swing away guard. The reason for the rule is to avoid the possibility of having an exposed cutterhead, either during operation as wood moves through, or because the fence is moved backwards and the guard does not automatically follow it.

[Beau Cassidy]

By the way, in the other day, I was face jointing 10-inch boards and now I don't know how I can live without A331, but I guess once I have a 16-inch jointer, I would feel the same....

Sorry Beau that I'm jacking your thread. We are anxiously waiting for your update ;)

You are not hijacking at all. I debated for months on size then decided I am only gonna do it once so get the biggest thing reasonable. I really hate buying things twice. So far the wife has been pretty cool about things. I am fairly sure she has seen the bill. She is usually very supportive of things I like to do. She actually told me one time to buy a particular rare rifle I was debating over. Can't get much better than that!

I have the bandsaw uncrated and the wheels on the back. I spent this evening taking my time to put the wheels on the J/P and get it off the pallet. It was fun putting the wheels on! Everything on the J/P is unwrapped. The fence is equally as impressive as everything else. Won't get to do anything else until friday at the minimum.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Rod,

That is what a MiniMax sales person told me. Euro-type guards are not OSHA approved and that's why MiniMax is using the pork chop. So, I assume if I run a pro-shop and one of the employees gets hurt, I (or the company) may get into a trouble.
I personally don't like to constantly fight against the pork chop while I'm pushing a board and much prefer the euro guard.

By the way, in the other day, I was face jointing 10-inch boards and now I don't know how I can live without A331, but I guess once I have a 16-inch jointer, I would feel the same....

Sorry Beau that I'm jacking your thread. We are anxiously waiting for your update ;)

Hi, I was surprised to find out that the spring loaded guard was the only approved type.

Personally I like the bridge guard on larger jointers.

When I went from an 8 inch jointer to the 12 inch A3, it was great. I really don't have a use for a 16 or 20 inch machine............Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

that interesting Rod. Has the american surty bridge guard been outlawed?


http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=1682




http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/14757-A.jpg

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/5756-C.JPG

Jack, if it automatically retracts to cover the cutter once the wood is clear, I would expect it would meet requirements. I shouldn't have indicated that the pork chop type is required, I meant to indicate that it was like the pork chop guard.......Rod.

P.S. The SUVA guard would be fine as well.

[Rod Sheridan]

As Jack points out, OSHA doesn't specifically require a porkchop swing away guard. The reason for the rule is to avoid the possibility of having an exposed cutterhead, either during operation as wood moves through, or because the fence is moved backwards and the guard does not automatically follow it.

Thanks JR, I hadn't meant to indicate that the pork chop guard was required, I should have stated that it needed to function like a pork chop guard......Rod.