Laser suggestions (anodized aluminum)

[Dave Demaree]

I manufacture small anodized aluminum components. I would like to be able to laser mark these items with my company name/logo.

The laser would be used for nothing but anodized aluminum. I have no need to cut/engrave acrylic, card stock, etc. The location is a home office with minimal space, which pretty much rules out most of the Chinese machines due to their larger footprint, and all that I've seen require a chiller component (additional space requirements). Quality is also a concern. I'd much rather pay more for something with quality components & support that I'm not going to have to fiddle with, software that works, etc.

While I haven't received any quotes yet, I'm assuming that outsourcing this work would prove cost prohibitive due to the small quantities that I deal with at any given moment. I anodize these parts in different colors as the need arises, so I'm usually working with batches of 10-30 parts at a time. They sell for relatively cheap ($25), so the added cost of laser marking would likely drop my profit margin below a comfortable level. If I could get them marked for $1 - $2 a piece, it would be doable, but I think that's a pipe dream given the quantities I work with (and maybe even large quantities).

The investment in a laser engraver is considerable, but over time I think I would come out ahead as the machine slowly pays for itself.

So, I've been looking at the Epilog machines, namely due to their track record, small footprint, no chiller needed, and ease of use (I'm already versed in Corel). I'd like to keep the budget under $8000, which puts me in the Zing 16 x 12, 30 watt realm (new), or a used Mini.

My questions are as follows:

1. Are there any machines out there in my price range and size requirement I may be missing?
2. Given what this machine would be used for, would there be any reason to go with the Mini over the Zing? Engraving speed is not really a concern.
3. Is 30 watts enough to engrave Type II anodizing (no hardcoat)?
4. Additionally, is an exhaust system necessary when engraving anodized aluminum?

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Mike Null]

I would suggest that you have a look at Rayjet by Trotec.

[Dan Kozakewycz]

Trotec Rayjet 50 will suit this well, but I'm not sure if it comes within budget.

I almost bought one to produce my products, (technical drawing artwork etched on anodised aluminium display plaques), though I think mine are Type 1 anodising (the softer, decorative type). Regardless, 30w should be more than enough, really it only takes 12-15w to bleach the colour out of the surface.

No exhaust system is necessary. It does make a bit of a smell, but it's not bad. I run mine in a bedroom in my rented house with no issues, just open a window if necessary. I don't use air assist either because it's noisy and not really necessary.

In the end I upgraded to a Speedy 100 as I realised I was going to be the only person with one of these machines on the island I live on, and decided to make the most of that captive market.

[Dan Hintz]

Epilog Zing 16, ULS VLS series (the VLS2.30, for example, is quite small), or the Trotec Rayjet 50. All good machines, all relatively small footprint.

[Dave Demaree]

Thanks for the suggestions thus far.

The Rayjet could be a possibility depending upon how much wiggle room the dealer has. Looks like the 30 watt (no air assist) is around $10k and the 25 watt is $9k.

The VLS model appears to be out of my price range, at least in the 30 watt model ($12k+).

Granted all of this pricing is MSRP so I'm sure there are deals to be had on occasion, but discounting $4k seems unrealistic. I could see coming down $1k+ though. I really have no idea what kind of markup is baked into these machines.

I would like to attend a show to compare look/feel of different units and possibly snag reduced show pricing, but the closest event to me has been Atlanta which is a 16 hr drive round trip. Anyone know of Florida shows that attract the major laser brands?

[Mike Null]

There is an NBM show in Orlando but not until Feb. https://thenbmshow.com/orlando-2015

This is from Trotec's site. http://www.troteclaser.com/en-US-US/Contact/Pages/Event-Calendar.aspx

You can probably find the schedule on the ULS and Epilog sites as well.

[Pete James]

Dave,

Before you make your final decision, I would recommend that you give Ray Scott at Rabbit Lasers a call. I know he stocks a reasonably small 30w laser and the price is less than $5000 not including freight. It is a Chinese machine, but it should serve your needs well. It will fit on a small table and the chiller can be placed underneath. Ray has an excellent reputation for great service (by the way, I do not know Ray and I am not compensated for recommending him).

[Dave Demaree]

Many thanks Mike! That NBM show would be perfect. I'm in no rush, so no worries there.

Gives me more time to save my pennies!

[Dave Demaree]

Thanks for the suggestion Pete.


I have taken a look at Ray's site and from reading other posts here it appears he offers first-rate service. Unfortunately, that machine is just too big for my location (40.5Tall x 27.9Deep x 37.0Wide, 209 lbs) vs. the Zing 16 (28.75" x 22.125” x 11.75”, 95lbs).

[matthew knott]

I would carefully work out how many you forecast on selling, if you can find some one to engrave them a around $2-3 each your going to need to do a lot to ever recover your initial outlay, also although these machines are very reliable, none of them last for ever and do come with running costs plus the physical time to run the bits , maybe find someone with a YAG, or Fiber machine in the local area and do a deal and see how it pans out. To be fair all the machines you mentioned here hold their price pretty well so getting a big chunk of cash back is not difficult.
Generally UK pricing for service is higher than the USA and we would charge you around $35 for up to about 25 parts, so 1 is expensive, 20 not so much, so hopefully you can find someone near you. They shouldn't take long :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1nKzF2w3Tg

[Mike Audleman]

Would you need a chiller at all? I mean if you are only marking 15-20 parts in batches, its likely you wouldn't even warm up the water let alone need a chiller.

I have played all day on a weekend or two cutting ply and playing with engraving wood and glass and I don't own a chiller. Mine is in a basement (cool by default) and the water scarcely got to lukewarm. If you are in an office, I assume yours is going to be air conditioned and cool by default. I run the typical cheapo Home Depot bucket with distilled water and a fountain pump. I probably should get a temp gauge but I haven't seen the need for the expense with it not even getting into the luke warm stage from basement room temp over a whole day cutting and engraving. But, I only own a 50w chinese unit. I would assume larger power units would need one sooner than mine would.

Last night I marked 15 annodized (no clue of the type, bought them at the dollar store) water bottles with a school logo for my granddaughter to take to her volleyball team at school. The water was still cold at the end of the batch. I couldn't tell if it had warmed at all nor it. If it had it was by so little it was not noticeable. The logo area was about 2" x 3".

After the bottles, I also spent about an hour putzing around cutting 3mm ply to make some jigs. Again, the water temp increase from start to end was not perceptible.

Hopefully one of the experienced users here will chime in on the thought of needing or not needing a chiller re your volume level.

[Matt McCoy]

I might catch a few arrows, but you might consider the Full Spectrum 5th Gen. It is a no-frills, simple machine that works well on aluminum and is around the size you are considering. They are designed and assembled in the U.S. and have proprietary software that is pretty good and easy to use. You can simply print from your choice of design software.

The engraving speed will be slower, but you mentioned that engraving speed is not really a concern and you will only produce 10-30 pieces at a time. The parts are an OK quality to bring this in at its price point, but outside of replacing a tube or power supply, it should be pretty trouble-free to use well below its limitations. Support is good and they are responsive and, in my experience, helpful in honoring their warranty if you need to take advantage of it.

[Kevin Gregerson]

Thanks for the suggestions thus far.

The Rayjet could be a possibility depending upon how much wiggle room the dealer has. Looks like the 30 watt (no air assist) is around $10k and the 25 watt is $9k.

The VLS model appears to be out of my price range, at least in the 30 watt model ($12k+).

Granted all of this pricing is MSRP so I'm sure there are deals to be had on occasion, but discounting $4k seems unrealistic. I could see coming down $1k+ though. I really have no idea what kind of markup is baked into these machines.

I would like to attend a show to compare look/feel of different units and possibly snag reduced show pricing, but the closest event to me has been Atlanta which is a 16 hr drive round trip. Anyone know of Florida shows that attract the major laser brands?

I can get you a VLS 2.30 30 watt for less than 10k shipped. They are workhorse machines. I just serviced one at a medical university that was one of the early editions of it ran for 10 years without any servicing and the laser tube was still putting out 34 watts. Apparently the students had never really cleaned it out so it had ten years of plastic bits and pieces in there causing the z table screws to clog up among other things. New optics, belts, bearings, alignment, driver updates, and cleaning brought it cutting the same as a new one.

[Kev Williams]

Semi-biased opinion here- the base price I paid for my rather large 1300x900 Triumph was less than 3 grand, and that was with the chiller, blower and air pump. It's engraves anodized better than my ULS or LS900, much 'whiter' mark. (I don't even engrave anodized in the ULS because it's brightest mark isn't white enough for me.) I've had no issues with engraving quality down to very small characters and graphics. Yes, there's a learning curve and much tweaking to get the quality at its best but once zeroed in, it's all good. There are many 'small footprint' Chinese lasers available, and for the narrow scope of work you're looking to accomplish, I think it would be a mistake NOT to seriously consider a Chinese alternative. I've bought 3 machines in the past 18 months, I still have 2 years of payments on my IS400, and 3-1/2 years on the IS7000. I paid cash for the Triumph last November, and it's paid for itself at least twice over already. My IS400 has covered it's cost in 2 years, the IS7000 has quite a few jobs to go to catch up.

And a side note- I've noticed Chinese lasers sold in the US are marked up 200 to 300% from what I paid ordering direct, including all costs to get it here. The tradeoff is, I have no US support, but so far I haven't needed any. I have had Triumph custom make me a few lens tubes and ordered some lenses. No problems, just a quick email and done.

[Dave Demaree]

I would carefully work out how many you forecast on selling, if you can find some one to engrave them a around $2-3 each your going to need to do a lot to ever recover your initial outlay,

You're probably correct Matthew. It would take a very long time to recoup my costs. That said, I'm not against viewing this as a purchase instead of an investment. Something cool to add to my "tool" collection so to speak. It is a very good point though.

I have not completely dismissed outsourcing and will poke around my local shops to see what the going rate for something like this would be.

[Dave Demaree]

There are many 'small footprint' Chinese lasers available, and for the narrow scope of work you're looking to accomplish, I think it would be a mistake NOT to seriously consider a Chinese alternative

Thanks for the insight Kev. One of the things that scares me about the Chinese lasers is the fudge factor, ie how much I'm gonna have to fudge with the thing to get it to work correctly. My time is extremely limited, so I really need something that just works right out of the box. Probably another reason to push toward outsourcing instead of bringing this work in house, but sometimes I can be a glutton for punishment!

The FSL laser another poster mentioned is the right size, but there is still the pesky chiller requirement. I've not gave much thought to FSL due to the somewhat spotty reputation they've earned here though.

[Dan Hintz]

The FSL laser another poster mentioned is the right size, but there is still the pesky chiller requirement. I've not gave much thought to FSL due to the somewhat spotty reputation they've earned here though.

If you ever decide a Chinese laser is your best bet, go with Rabbit, not FSL...

[Dave Demaree]

Hi Mike, it's not so much needing a chiller that's the issue, but just the extra space required even for a bucket & pump. While you may not need a chiller, I assume these machines can't be operated dry, and still require some way to circulate water through them, correct?

I've looked on Ebay and found some relatively small chillers for computers and such, so I suppose I could make it work.

[matthew knott]

Buy a 'tool' that makes you money, if you can find anyone in your area you always have the option of using the machine for other people, that way you may recoup the money much quicker.
All the best
Matt

[Ross Moshinsky]

My personal opinion is to contact a local engraver and make a relationship with them. Have them engrave the items for you for now. Do the layout for them. Make their life easy. It's a learning process for you as well. Search the used laser market. If you find something worth buying, buy it.

Assuming 10 pcs a week over a 52 week year at a cost of out sourcing of $10 each, you're looking at $5200 for the year. That should be able to cover a used 30W western machine.

[Pete James]

Mike,
If you are using a bucket and pump setup, just get a couple of plastic quart (or so) water jugs and pop them in the freezer. When you are ready to use the machine, grab one and put it in the bucket. Just in case the cap or bottle rupture due to freezing it is best to fill them with distilled water also.

[Gary Hair]

I would highly suggest a fiber laser for your parts. If they are small then you could get away with the smaller working area that you get with a fiber. You really gain an advantage in speed over CO2, I can do anodized parts in about 10% of the time with my fiber than I can with the CO2 and the image is sharper and brighter. Mine ran about $13k including the laser, an extra lens, shipping, customs, duties, etc. That's more than your budget but, trust me, it will pay off if you try to find a bit of work for it. It is so much more versatile than CO2 and can open many markets that are either not possible or not practical with CO2. If that won't work then I'd suggest jobbing it out - 10-30 parts are not a problem and I'd be happy to tackle them for you.

[Matt McCoy]

...The FSL laser another poster mentioned is the right size, but there is still the pesky chiller requirement. I've not gave much thought to FSL due to the somewhat spotty reputation they've earned here though.

You probably won't need a chiller, but you would have to put a 5 gallon bucket nearby.

FSL ruffled some feathers and took their lumps here and elsewhere as they learned to developed through some growing pains. I'm not sure, but I think most of the hubbub was couple or few years ago and often gets repeated. They might be past that point now -- or not.

I read through a recent thread about a reseller that was respected here and well thought of. Unfortunately, the company fell on hard times and burned some customers for large sums of money and now suffer a poor reputation. Conversely, there have been a few car makers that were once considered to make products that weren't very good but are now well-respected and produce quality cars.

[Scott Shepherd]

I would highly suggest a fiber laser for your parts. If they are small then you could get away with the smaller working area that you get with a fiber. You really gain an advantage in speed over CO2, I can do anodized parts in about 10% of the time with my fiber than I can with the CO2 and the image is sharper and brighter. Mine ran about $13k including the laser, an extra lens, shipping, customs, duties, etc. That's more than your budget but, trust me, it will pay off if you try to find a bit of work for it. It is so much more versatile than CO2 and can open many markets that are either not possible or not practical with CO2. If that won't work then I'd suggest jobbing it out - 10-30 parts are not a problem and I'd be happy to tackle them for you.

A fiber is faster how? We run anodized aluminum at 100% speed. A fiber source wouldn't change that at all. If you're talking a Galvo fiber, then I'd also disagree to some degree. We run a lot of anodized parts for a customer and with the fixtures we have, it takes 5 seconds each to engrave them. I can do 40 of them about 3 1/2 minutes. In those 3 1/2 minutes, I can unload and load another fixture.

With a smaller table, like on a Galvo, I'd have to run smaller batches and I'm not convinced it would save me anything on this job. In fact, I'm almost positive it would require more time because of all the smaller batch sizes.

However, that's a very specific job, and I know there are certainly shapes and sizes of engraving that would go much faster on the Galvo.

Are you saying you got a Galvo Fiber laser for $13K?

[Dan Hintz]

FSL ruffled some feathers and took their lumps here and elsewhere as they learned to developed through some growing pains. I'm not sure, but I think most of the hubbub was couple or few years ago and often gets repeated. They might be past that point now -- or not.

I read through a recent thread about a reseller that was respected here and well thought of. Unfortunately, the company fell on hard times and burned some customers for large sums of money and now suffer a poor reputation. Conversely, there have been a few car makers that were once considered to make products that weren't very good but are now well-respected and produce quality cars.

The owner is who ruffled all of those feathers... from his "I'll do what I want to and you can't stop me" attitude here and towards Keith (forum owner) to the way he left multiple system purchasers hanging in the wind when the machine didn't operate as advertised. Still the same company owner, no matter how many FSL-specific forums he creates, and if that's how he runs a company, I want no part of it (and I'm not about to suggest anyone else take a chance on it, either).

[Mike Null]

Matt

It won't be my money financing their second chance.

[Mike Null]

I am currently running an anodized flashlight job which has about 50 characters on three lines of 6.5 point Arial. They take 7 seconds. I'm running them in a single jig with the lid up.

That's pretty fast.

[Gary Hair]

A fiber is faster how?</quote>
It just is... I have jobs that run about 10% of the time on my fiber vs CO2. Yes, it's a galvo and that makes all the difference. A gantry fiber wouldn't be much of an improvement in time and the mark isn't much better than CO2.

<quote>If you're talking a Galvo fiber, then I'd also disagree to some degree. We run a lot of anodized parts for a customer and with the fixtures we have, it takes 5 seconds each to engrave them. I can do 40 of them about 3 1/2 minutes. In those 3 1/2 minutes, I can unload and load another fixture.

With a smaller table, like on a Galvo, I'd have to run smaller batches and I'm not convinced it would save me anything on this job. In fact, I'm almost positive it would require more time because of all the smaller batch sizes.

However, that's a very specific job, and I know there are certainly shapes and sizes of engraving that would go much faster on the Galvo.</quote>
You are talking about workflow not laser time.

<quote>Are you saying you got a Galvo Fiber laser for $13K?
Yes. It's a 30 watt, galvo, two lenses, rotary fixture, computer, software, shipping, customs, duties, everything, just under $13K Obviously not American made but for the $30K difference in price I was willing to take a chance - a chance that has paid off quite well!

[Gary Hair]

I am currently running an anodized flashlight job which has about 50 characters on three lines of 6.5 point Arial. They take 7 seconds. I'm running them in a single jig with the lid up.

That's pretty fast.

The fiber would be less than 2 seconds for that job Mike. I'd make a fixture with Lego's and hopefully hold several at a time.

[Mike Null]

Gary

Keep us posted on your results and capabilities with your new fiber machine. I do turn down some work for lack of one.

This flashlight job is a one time only and not worth a multiple jig in my opinion; though it is 250 pieces.

[Kevin Gregerson]

I am currently running an anodized flashlight job which has about 50 characters on three lines of 6.5 point Arial. They take 7 seconds. I'm running them in a single jig with the lid up.

That's pretty fast.

Depends on the design and the quality setup. I've seen some moderate priced galvo's run at 3m/s before the servo's start to break. I've seen some designs as high as 300ips, but that's a far more expensive machine than anyone on this forum owns. There are new XY gantry designs hitting the market that should top out at 400ips with special cooling for the servo's. But again, higher price than anyone on this forum is willing to invest for such things. Unless you got 120k to spend getting that speed you aren't going to do it.

[Matt McCoy]

The owner is who ruffled all of those feathers... from his "I'll do what I want to and you can't stop me" attitude here and towards Keith (forum owner) to the way he left multiple system purchasers hanging in the wind when the machine didn't operate as advertised. Still the same company owner, no matter how many FSL-specific forums he creates, and if that's how he runs a company, I want no part of it (and I'm not about to suggest anyone else take a chance on it, either).

Dan: I think if you reread my second paragraph in a pragmatic way, you might agree that we are saying approximately the same thing. I am not endorsing or apologizing for past boorish behavior and, like you, feel better about purchases from companies that stand by the products they sell. I respect that you don't think FSL will do that, and my point was that I don't just know. My experience has been great and there might be a few others too.

I will admit, I do have a soft spot for small start-ups that offer alternatives and admire those that can try to hit the sweet-spot of price and compromises. Perhaps, that's why importing a machine directly from China has become more popular. I hope we see more laser makers and especially better software! Ultimately, that's probably good for people who are interested in buying a laser.

For the record: I would totally consider a Rabbit Laser as well.


Matt

It won't be my money financing their second chance.

Hi Mike: Fair enough. I don't think anyone did, though. Your experience and needs are probably not the same as the original poster and you require more professional equipment and can find the room for bigger machines. I understand what you are saying, though.