Why don't you use ceramic stones?

[george wilson]

Maybe I got lucky. My flattening of the White stone took about an hour,using a used diamond stone. It was slightly out of flat,and had a fuzzy spot of ceramic that had to go. I have seen pictures of "sawn" looking ceramic stones by Spyderco(my brand),but haven't encountered one personally. I got mine in the 80's.

But,once you get the white stone flattened,you'll never have to do it again. The black one(really more like a dark brown) was perfect out of the box. Those 2 and a diamond bench stone have been the system I settled on after trying just about everything else out there. I had museum money to do quite a bit of experimenting with.

I tried water stones. They wear,are very messy,and they caused my chisels to get a slight case of brown spots,though I carefully wiped them dry. I hate to buy an expensive stone that will get worn out from use and re flattening.

For several years I used Frictionite razor stones incorrectly,but effectively,with "Lock Oil",a light weight oil that was stocked in the museum's warehouse. Not correct,but it did work just fine. I got razor sharp edges and minimal mess. The projects I have posted here were made with tools sharpened with that stone. Including the curly maple lion's head,with carved hair.

I made a knife out of D2 steel,and could not quite get it razor sharp. I honed and honed. Tried Arkansas,and everything else I could lay hands on. Then I got the Spyderco ceramic stones. Got them prepped up,and easily raised a razor sharp edge. That steel was simply too wear resistant to sharpen on any of the softer stones. There is no steel that a ceramic stone will not cut. Arkansas stones,on the other hand,grind like they were made of wood in my belt grinder. I have reshaped some broken slip stones like that. Not so with the ceramic stones! Nothing short of diamond is going to touch them!!

The only thing I ever have to do is quickly scrub off the gray haze of metal from the white stone. The black one never seems to get dirty. You can clean the gray off with cleansing powder from the kitchen. Or,give it a scrub with the diamond stone.I haven't worn out my diamond stone doing that,though I have read that some guys have. Maybe,like everything else,it's a matter of technique. Diamonds need gentle treatment. They are hard,but terribly brittle,and can be dislodged from their matrix if used with too hard down bearing. We had one in the shop that is still there after decades. It is one of the first ever made,and is a solid block of plastic 1" thick,with the perforated steel matrix on its top. It still cuts. The makers gave it to the museum to try.

I hone any nicks away with the diamond stone,then the black,then the white. I might strop a LITTLE on a piece of MDF with green buffing compound from LV. The MDF does not round over the edge like a leather strop can.

The whole process is quick and easy. I don't have to have a tub of water for my stones to sit in,or any "sharpening station" that takes up space. My cutting fluid is slightly soapy water(detergent,actually). A few drops in a plastic squeeze bottle of water. A little squirt will do. Not even enough to dribble off the edges of the stones. And,not messy enough to rust my tools.

[Jeff Ranck]

Frankly I never thought much about ceramic stones. I don't know anything about them, but I'd sure like to learn the details of what you have there. The Spyderco catalog seems to list "medium" "fine" and "ultra fine" bench stones. Prices are not outrageous. I presume your dark stone is one of the medium ones. What are the other components to your system? Coarse diamond stone? Fine or ultra fine ceramic?

[Daniel Rode]

I plead ignorance. I don't use them because when I was looking to settle on sharpening system, I did not know what they were.

Today I use 1200 & 5k diamond plates and a 15k Shapton.

After listening to you describe the ceramics, I may well have gone that route if I had known more about them.

[David Weaver]

I think the fact that the ceramic stones are a bit variable (they cut fast when they're freshly conditioned and can be made to cut so slowly on the UF that they pretty much stop) probably confuses beginners. Plus, they're not marketed to beginners, and it wasn't until recently that they made the UF in a 3 inch wide stones (for the honing guide users).

Couple that with the fact that most hobby woodworkers don't get past honing planes and chisel irons, and the new ceramics are a lot less messy, and a lot slower wearing than were the kings and such types of stones (the red brick medium stone and then the very soft finishing stone).

IIRC, coors ceramics makes the stones for spyderco, and as you described, when you get one with saw marks in it the only thing that will remotely touch it is a diamond hone. I like them OK - they're like a modern alternative to oilstones (slow wearing, difficult to scuff - downright impossible, actually) - I just wish I would've gotten the 2" wide UF instead of the 3" wide UF.

I like the frictionite, too, though. I wish they would've kept making it. with what's available for razors these days, it would be better for tools than razors given that most new shavers don't understand or have a good grasp of how razor hones were to be used in the past (working just short of the edge instead of to and through it).

As with most of our tools now, the market is driven by beginners, and something like a shapton or sigma power is a little easier to use than the spydercos, and ready to go out of the box (which the UFs and Fine stones are not these days). BlogClassNation is not going to peddle anything to beginners that is anything but absolutely point and shoot - regardless of whether it will be the preferred method in the long run. Thus all of the purchased saw jigs and expensive pre-made chute boards and other such stuff that should be quick-cheap-made stuff in a user's shop.

Presume that the guy who makes spyderco go has also found that those plastic handled knives are easier to sell and higher margin than getting and selling private label stones from coors ceramics.

[george wilson]

When I got mine,the ultra fine one was not available. To tell the truth, I am not sure if there is any difference between my white one now that it is flattened,or perhaps the ultra fine is just already flattened,at extra cost. I have not ever had to "re tooth" my white stone. It has been used since the 80's,and still cuts,leaving a highly polished razor edge. I just stack them on a shelf out of the way when finished. No water tub for growing your own mildew in.

I dare say,I think you could use these ceramic stones several lifetimes,and not see perceptible wear in them.

The main thing in getting into using them is getting the white one flat. If the Ultra Fine one is already flat,I'd recommend going for it.

As far as fast cutting,the diamond is a very fast cutting stone. Unless David(who has a lot of waterstone experience) says his will cut faster,I think the diamond will cut as fast as you'll ever need. Then,the black,and last,the white stones make quick work of polishing the edge.

This setup,possibly bar the diamond stone,is a once in a lifetime purchase expense. Unless you drop a ceramic stone and break it,it isn't going to ever need replacement.

These things have already been discussed before,but there might be newish members who haven't seen it.

[Adam Cruea]

1) I just simply didn't know enough about them for one
2) I use a honing guide; 2" wide just wasn't enough, so I never extensively looked into them (which led to reason #1)

I may check them out when I wear through my Sigma Power stones. Of course, there may be something much better by then. . .who knows?

[george wilson]

I just Googled Spyderco ceramic stones on Amazon. There seem to be an endless variety now. And,several 3" wide.Most of them cheaper than what I paid for mine years ago,before the internet.

[David Weaver]

There will always be something new and better :)

The battle with stones now is how to make them exactly the right hardness to have a hard and smooth feel, but so that they release enough particles not to load.

And the issue that people sharpening different things use different pressures. Razors use light pressure and polish on stones that still cut knives, etc.

The current menu of stuff that's available is pretty fantastic (shaptons, sigma powers, choseras, gokumyos).

[David Weaver]

When I got mine,the ultra fine one was not available. To tell the truth, I am not sure if there is any difference between my white one now that it is flattened,or perhaps the ultra fine is just already flattened,at extra cost. I have not ever had to "re tooth" my white stone. It has been used since the 80's,and still cuts,leaving a highly polished razor edge. I just stack them on a shelf out of the way when finished. No water tub for growing your own mildew in.

I dare say,I think you could use these ceramic stones several lifetimes,and not see perceptible wear in them.

The main thing in getting into using them is getting the white one flat. If the Ultra Fine one is already flat,I'd recommend going for it.

As far as fast cutting,the diamond is a very fast cutting stone. Unless David(who has a lot of waterstone experience) says his will cut faster,I think the diamond will cut as fast as you'll ever need. Then,the black,and last,the white stones make quick work of polishing the edge.

This setup,possibly bar the diamond stone,is a once in a lifetime purchase expense. Unless you drop a ceramic stone and break it,it isn't going to ever need replacement.

These things have already been discussed before,but there might be newish members who haven't seen it.

Diamond will cut as fast as anyone will need. A shapton pro 1k will cut carbon steel faster, so will a bester 1200, for equivalent finish, and it will stay more consistent, but diamonds are fine. When the steel gets tougher, the diamonds sort of stay the same speed and just cut everything equally fast, dependent, it seems, more on hardness than composition. But they cut anything fast, no matter how hard it is. True HSS challenges stones that don't release particles.

With any kind of stone that anyone has, if they think it's too slow, they're working too much metal. I can use a washita settled in and a jasper (both of which cut very little) and like it more than using any of the synthetics. 5 years ago, I would've written the stones off as too slow - both of them - and the washita too coarse if it's scuffed.

UF and Fine, I've seen the same thing on the razor boards, that the UF just had a better surface treatment, but one would have to confirm that with spyderco (unless someone already has). If the fine is allowed to settle in, it would become extremely fine. I sent Chris G my spyderco UF completely broken in and glazed and I think he was probably confused about its usefulness, and maybe felt it wasn't OK to beat up the surface to speed up the cut. when they are new (iirc, the particle size is about 3 microns) they cut unbelievably fast, but that soon goes away and they settle in to what they're going to do long term.

[Jeff Ranck]

I'm curious as to why you would want the 2 inch wide instead of the 3 inch wide. I've never used a 2" wide and the 2" would be smaller than my bevel up blades. I'm thinking that would make it kind of hard for me to use. Even the smoother blades are 2" wide. I'm always wanting more width rather than less. Of course, I'm not as good at sharpening as all of you.

[David Weaver]

Once you go to freehanding something, a 2" stone will not get hollow in the width, only in the length (though the wear is little with the spyderco UF).

You intentionally want the edge of the tool to be able to overhang the stone. When you get used to it with oilstones, ti's a lot easier to keep the wear (which is more the cutting speed with a UF) uniform on a stone if it's narrower than some of the things sharpened on it.

[Jeff Ranck]

I saw a post from a spyderco person on a forum that said the uf had the same grit size (whatever that means) as the fine but had been polished in some way. See I'm already trying to do some reading to see if I can learn more.

[Jeff Ranck]

Makes sense. As I attempt free handing (never had a jig until lately), maybe I'll try a bit narrower stone. Although at my skill level, I'll probably just switch from having uneven wear on the stone to uneven sharpening on the edge!

[Pat Barry]

I have a 4 inch square piece of aluminum oxide ceramic that I do use for polishing. I have no idea of the grit. It was designed to be a ceramic substrate for microelectronics applications. The metal tends to get stuck in the pores so I don't use it for anything but final polish of the cutting edge

[Matthew N. Masail]

I have choosers 800, 3000 and a gokomyo 10000 grit water stone. I also bought a soft + hard + black Arkansas stones. Lately I have been realizing that using a oil stone or a stone that needs no oil or flattening is so much nicer for all the reasons George mentioned . It seems more apt to a wood shop than water and I don't have to dry my hands often. Most importantly, I like the resulting edge better. I am going to get a eze lap plate instead of the soft ark as the ark has a hard time removing much from the likes of hock and a2, and I can see where I might one day sell my waterstones. My question to George and David , what is the differance between the ceramic and ark? The hard ark+black combo seems to refine and polish the edge just fine after the burr us reached but they do not make a super bright polish, but the edge cut fantastically. How do the ceramic function in comparison?

[george wilson]

I have sharpened everything I have just fine on my 2" wide stones,including the 3" blade from my big jointer plane that I have posted here. I just move the blade about while sharpening,to get all of it sharp. No biggie.

Matthew,I have mentioned in my first post here,that an Arkansas stone is terribly soft compared to a ceramic. I easily re grind broken Arkansas slip stones into special shapes. But,only a diamond will cut the ceramics.

Read my initial post again,if you haven't.

You cannot find a steel that the ceramic stones cannot cut. But,I could not get a D2 knife razor sharp on my Arkansas,or any other stone I had at the time. The ceramics sharpened it right up.

[David Weaver]

I have choosers 800, 3000 and a gokomyo 10000 grit water stone. I also bought a soft + hard + black Arkansas stones. Lately I have been realizing that using a oil stone or a stone that needs no oil or flattening is so much nicer for all the reasons George mentioned . It seems more apt to a wood shop than water and I don't have to dry my hands often. Most importantly, I like the resulting edge better. I am going to get a eze lap plate instead of the soft ark as the ark has a hard time removing much from the likes of hock and a2, and I can see where I might one day sell my waterstones. My question to George and David , what is the differance between the ceramic and ark? The hard ark+black combo seems to refine and polish the edge just fine after the burr us reached but they do not make a super bright polish, but the edge cut fantastically. How do the ceramic function in comparison?

The ceramic is much harder than an arkansas stone. If you can believe that. The abrasive in it is probably some sort of ceramic alumina, and the entire thing may be abrasive for all I know (meaning that the stone and binder are generally one material and edges of voids do the cutting and determine the fineness of the stone. This is essentially the same thing for novaculite, except the novaculite particles aren't as hard and durable as ceramic alumina.

Obvious other issue is that if you don't use the spydercos dry, you use water instead of oil. The medium is hard to water, though - it's like very fine coral and the water just disappears.

Since the alumina is harder than novaculite, it stays sharp and cuts carbides that novaculite doesn't.

There is probably some easy reading somewhere to find out exactly what the ceramic bits and pieces are made of. We use the term aluminum oxide loosely, but there are scads of different abrasive aluminas that have different levels of durability and slightly different levels of hardness. Ceramics, etc, have a lot of usefulness in manufacturing, especially in heavy industry, and as woodworkers, we're more or less siphoning off stuff that we can use. We don't care so much about the durability of the alumina as a manufacturing environment might where the item is a wear part.

I have no idea what coors uses the ceramics for, but I'd imagine the reason that they had a ceramic division was to supply their beer making. You can find coors ceramic hones out there, but no guarantees on what they actually are since I'm sure spyderco had a spec and worked with them to get what they wanted.

Anyway, the real difference between them and novaculite is that they can cut carbides and novaculite generally can't.

[Brian Loran]

George, what do you see as the benefit to using ceramic rather than diamond stones? Thanks for the info!

Edit to better frame my question.

Here is what I see when comparing them.

Diamonds cut as fast as ceramic (maybe faster)
Ceramic lasts longer?
neither need flattening
Equivalent mess? not sure about this one

I am probably missing some other important attributes such as one may be finer than the other?

So, what are the main factors/factor for you that made you pick ceramic over diamond stones? longer lasting, better edge, etc...

Thanks.

[David Weaver]

Matt - here's a little bit about carbides, you've probably read it already at some point:

Go down to the knoop hardness table at the bottom of this page:

http://www.tedpella.com/Material-Sciences_html/Abrasive_Grit_Grading_Systems.htm

Figure tool steel in general (especially plain high carbon) is probably mid to high 700s. Novaculite is probably similar to quartz or just a bit harder (courtesy of google books, knoop from hock's book for novaculite is 820 vs. 780 for 62 hardness steel).

(WAY) up from that are chromium, moly and tungsten carbides. And way up from there are vanadium carbides.

IIRC , D2 that george is talking about has a lot of chromium carbides, and the ceramic alumina or whatever is in the spydercos will cut through them. Novaculite won't. I think some of the turners tools are loaded with vanadium carbides, which is probably why the CBN wheels are so popular.

(I just looked up spyderco to try to find out what flavor of alumina they use, and they don't specify - just alumina, and the matrix is ceramic. I don't know that much about aluminas, but I thought ceramic was a type of alumina or alumina a type of ceramic, anyway - at any rate, they would be one of the few stones where the binder and the abrasives are both hard enough to cut hardened steel)

I never saw novaculite knoop quantified before, but have for a while used novaculite stones to determine how hard japanese white steel tools are. When they are super hard, the novaculite just burnishes them. If they are 62 hardness, as a lot of the budget stuff is, they sharpen just fine on novaculite. It's interesting to see that quantified to justify why that's a good test.

[Jim Koepke]

Why don't you use ceramic stones?

Because I bought everything else before hearing about them.

Just bought another chisel that came with a bit of pitting. A few minutes were spent on a 4' strip of 80 grit sand paper on the granite horse. Then a little time on the Mk II power set up. Then 1000, 4000 and 8000 grit water stones and a few swipes on the green strop and all it needed was a new handle.

During the cold months water freezes in my shop so it is oil stones during that time of year.

There is always something different going on. Just yesterday I was sharpening a shovel.

It will be awhile before any of my stones need replacing. To buy some new ceramics would require a sudden increase in income or a winning lottery ticket.

jtk

[ian maybury]

Ceramics caught my eye as a potentially attractive option for sharpening gouges and the like because of the low wear rate. I couldn't find any conical or round slips though (just flats), and thought as well that there was a shortage of the information needed to allow a comparison with waterstones.

Maybe I just didn't look in the right places???

[Pat Barry]

The ceramic is much harder than an arkansas stone. If you can believe that. The abrasive in it is probably some sort of ceramic alumina, and the entire thing may be abrasive for all I know (meaning that the stone and binder are generally one material and edges of voids do the cutting and determine the fineness of the stone. This is essentially the same thing for novaculite, except the novaculite particles aren't as hard and durable as ceramic alumina.

Obvious other issue is that if you don't use the spydercos dry, you use water instead of oil. The medium is hard to water, though - it's like very fine coral and the water just disappears.

Since the alumina is harder than novaculite, it stays sharp and cuts carbides that novaculite doesn't.

There is probably some easy reading somewhere to find out exactly what the ceramic bits and pieces are made of. We use the term aluminum oxide loosely, but there are scads of different abrasive aluminas that have different levels of durability and slightly different levels of hardness. Ceramics, etc, have a lot of usefulness in manufacturing, especially in heavy industry, and as woodworkers, we're more or less siphoning off stuff that we can use. We don't care so much about the durability of the alumina as a manufacturing environment might where the item is a wear part.

I have no idea what coors uses the ceramics for, but I'd imagine the reason that they had a ceramic division was to supply their beer making. You can find coors ceramic hones out there, but no guarantees on what they actually are since I'm sure spyderco had a spec and worked with them to get what they wanted.

Anyway, the real difference between them and novaculite is that they can cut carbides and novaculite generally can't.
We use CoorsTek ceramics in our products. Primarily, the higher purity grades of Alumina (aluminum oxide). Here is the CoorsTek technical data for their product line which I got from a simple google search.
http://www.coorstek.com/resource-library/library/8510-1042_ceramic_material_properties.pdf
Common allumina materials range in hardness from (rockwell scale mid 70's thru mid 80's). Particle sizes are several microns. One important aspect is that moisture absorption is 0 for most of these materials.

[Phillip J Allen]

Hi all,

Coors got into the ceramics business during prohibition so they could stay in the black.

I drove over to the Golden Colorado spyderco store and !
bought their round/square/triangle/oval-slip ceramic pencil stones to hone the cutters for my Stanley 45 & 55. They worked well with a bit of 3in1 oil.

I would vote that they are a good bargin and worth buying

[george wilson]

Several questions.

You CAN buy a set of ceramic slip stones which include a round one. You can also buy thicker chef's ceramic sticks that are about 10" long and about 5/8" or 3/4" in diameter. I haven't seen one in person,just pictures. I do have the slipstone set.

When you are sharpening a small V tool,it is fairly easy to soon wear grooves in an Arkansas slip. That won't happen with a ceramic triangular slip stone.

D2 steel has a 12% chromium content. It was designed to be a very high wear resistant tool steel that is used in things like shear blades for shearing steel sheet. I have later on found out that I just can't get(at least) my D2 Queen pocket knife to hold a razor edge. It gets a LITTLE dull,and seems to stay at that stage for a very long time. I don't plan to make any more D2 knives. Besides,it's a difficult steel to work and polish.

Why ceramics over diamond? Diamonds are like permanent sand paper. Good for quickly re establishing an edge,but that edge is not really sharp. I get rid of minor nicks with mine,and that little shiny line that you see on the cutting edge of a dull tool. But,diamond stones leave scratches on the edge. The ceramic stones are many times finer,and leave a finely polished edge.

Now,you could get some super fine diamond abrasives in a tube,or in powder form,and hone your tools on a cast iron plate with them. I know David had done that. I have some,too,for my 200 RPM horizontal/vertical diamond grinder. But,I would only use them on solid carbide tooling for my machine tools. I do not like the idea of letting loose diamond dust get into the shop. If it gets on a machine,it will forever lap the sliding surfaces till the machine is worn out. I even keep the diamond grinder itself well away from my lathes and mills. This is not a grinder most will have as they cost about $3,000.00 for my Sunnen model. Luckily I got mine used,CHEAP. I did have a bench model I bought new for the shop at the museum. Just the 6" ceramic wheel they sell to use diamond paste on is about $275.00 last time I checked. I could do with metal plates,though.

[David Weaver]

I've got diamonds down to a tenth of a micron. They are loose, though. I don't actually use them for anything, I just figured at the time I bought them, I was already buying from the retailer who had them (it might've been us products, or something like that) that I'd get a few vials of 25 carats each of various sized diamonds.

1 or 1/2 micron diamonds after a medium grit diamond hone is actually a very sensible sharpening regime. It's fine enough to avoid that toothy deep-groove feeling that diamonds have. There is nothing remotely close to being resistant to it in any steel, either.

I don't like diamonds for razors, though, which is really what I wanted to try them for, so they sit in their vials and are probably clumped together now.

I wonder if we'll get woodworking retailers selling nanodiamonds at some point (a tougher and harder diamond that what we normally see). Probably not, as the makers seem bent on cheapening the cost to make the hones in the first place, and then making boasts that don't seem to hold water (like how great monocrystalline diamonds are).

[Harold Burrell]

OK...shhhh...while my wife is not looking...

If someone (you know, "a friend") wanted to check out some ceramics...what would be a good manufacturer as well as a good place to get them???

[David Barnett]

1 or 1/2 micron diamonds after a medium grit diamond hone is actually a very sensible sharpening regime. It's fine enough to avoid that toothy deep-groove feeling that diamonds have. There is nothing remotely close to being resistant to it in any steel, either.

Monocrystalline diamond at a given micron grit size will cut deeper than other abrasives. Polycrystalline will cut as fast and faster while leaving shallower, more rounded troughs and a smoother finish. Either diamond crystal habit will cut deeper than other abrasives so one needs a smaller comparable mesh size as one moves down the micron scale.

One strategy is to hollow grind bevels, refining and smoothing on a diamond stone/plate, such as 600 grit, then lapping with a big jump to 1µ (14,000 grit) and 0.5µ if desired. Depending on the tool and the steel, adding a step at 3µ (8,000 grit) then to 1µ works fine but I don't bother. If one prefers not to lap, then 600 grit diamond to ceramic stones, translucent novaculte or waterstones will also do the trick. I also strop as a final step even after sub-micron diamond.

I like the Spyderco ceramics but tend to use them more for gravers and tiny carvers than wider woodworking chisels. For extremely bright cuts in precious metals I like to finish up on jasper, though.

[Christopher Charles]

I recently picked up a set of shapton pro ceramics and atoma diamond plate from Stu (1K, 5K, 12K) and they seem to have all the advantages mentioned by George, though I don't know how they compare to the Spydercos. A quantum leap above the norton set i had before in terms of ease of use if nothing else.

Cheers,
C

[David Weaver]

OK...shhhh...while my wife is not looking...

If someone (you know, "a friend") wanted to check out some ceramics...what would be a good manufacturer as well as a good place to get them???

Spyderco medium and UF or F (but not both). If you're willing to get them in 2x8, they're about $80 for the pair.

[David Weaver]

Monocrystalline diamond at a given micron grit size will cut deeper than other abrasives. Polycrystalline will cut as fast and faster while leaving shallower, more rounded troughs and a smoother finish. Either diamond crystal habit will cut deeper than other abrasives so one needs a smaller comparable mesh size as one moves down the micron scale.

One strategy is to hollow grind bevels, refining and smoothing on a diamond stone/plate, such as 600 grit, then lapping with a big jump to 1µ (14,000 grit) and 0.5µ if desired. Depending on the tool and the steel, adding a step at 3µ (8,000 grit) then to 1µ works fine but I don't bother. If one prefers not to lap, then 600 grit diamond to ceramic stones, translucent novaculte or waterstones will also do the trick. I also strop as a final step even after sub-micron diamond.

I like the Spyderco ceramics but tend to use them more for gravers and tiny carvers than wider woodworking chisels. For extremely bright cuts in precious metals I like to finish up on jasper, though.

The difference in feel (mono vs. polycrystalline) to me is like filing vs. rasping. It's very much like the difference between using a saw that is filed appropriately aggressive vs. a crosscut saw that has such a great deal of fleam that it just rasps the wood. I don't know if most people will gather what that means, so maybe it's better to say that monocrystalline diamonds feel like riding a road bike over cobblestone and polycrystalline diamonds feel like opening a high quality zipper.

It's my opinion that most of the people who don't like diamond hones because they've been using monocrystalline diamonds.

Jasper is super fantastic - a poor man's translucent oilstone, but one with sharper particles.

[David Weaver]

I recently picked up a set of shapton pro ceramics and atoma diamond plate from Stu (1K, 5K, 12K) and they seem to have all the advantages mentioned by George, though I don't know how they compare to the Spydercos. A quantum leap above the norton set i had before in terms of ease of use if nothing else.

Cheers,
C

They are easier to use, you'll never consume them and though george won't agree, I like the shapton pros better than the sypdercos. They are my favorite synthetic stone thus far....especially the 1k and 12/15k.

[Brian Loran]

hahahaa... I going to buy some stock in spyderco! I have a feeling their sales are about to double.

[george wilson]

The issue of ceramic stones has been covered before,as I mentioned. Much as I like mine,I cannot guarantee everyone will be happy with theirs because of the scrubbing they may take to get them smooth. I'd recommend getting the Ultra Fine because they apparently are ground smooth to start with. Some people are afraid they'll wear out their diamond stone flattening and getting saw cuts out of their white ceramic stones. I didn't seem to ruin my diamond stone,but others may have a different experience. If you do scrub,don't use a lot of force with the diamonds. I did mine beneath a faucet,too.

If you get a white stone with any spot of ceramic "fuzz" on it,that spot will never wear off. You have to get rid of it with a diamond stone. The Ultra Fine costs more,but should be satisfactory out of the box.

I'm going out to the shop and sharpen some kitchen knives now. But,not sharp enough to shave with!! Not necessary.

[David Weaver]

The 8x3 UF is close (to flat). the only thing I would grind it with is an Atoma, though, because the atoma has the particles affixed to the surface really well and can take a beating.

The UF that I got had just a bit of radial markings on it, something I've never seen before, and it took a lot of sweat to get them off, but the atoma is none the worse for wear despite it being fairly abusive.

I don't like the atomas for honing (because the diamonds are arranged in clumps), but they very durable and great for hard stones.

[george wilson]

I just sharpened a bunch of kitchen knives. Only by honing them on a 320 grit diamond disc on my slow speed grinder. Then,I sharpened my 2 pocket knives. I got them razor sharp on my ceramic stones with just a little trouble.

I even took the trouble to scrub off the gray steel from my white stone. How ambitious I was!!

Then,I spent some time searching for a spare compound for a metal lathe which I have,and which some guy on the machinist's forum I moderate needs pretty badly. His cracked in two. I had that happen on a Sharp(a good Asian brand) lathe once. Since you can't get spare parts for the import stuff,it is a serious problem when you need a part like this. I'll have to go PM him the dimensions now. Years ago,before the internet,I had to sell an otherwise good metal lathe for lack of this very part. The gov't has the habit of taking the compound off and tossing it so they can sell off a surplus lathe as incomplete. The "residue" they call it. What a strange term for something like a truck,lathe,etc..

[Charles Bjorgen]

Hey Phillip -- I'm wondering if this the set you got at the Spyderco Store. Looks like a good solution for sharpening those oddball shaped cutters.

295311



Hi all,

Coors got into the ceramics business during prohibition so they could stay in the black.

I drove over to the Golden Colorado spyderco store and !
bought their round/square/triangle/oval-slip ceramic pencil stones to hone the cutters for my Stanley 45 & 55. They worked well with a bit of 3in1 oil.

I would vote that they are a good bargin and worth buying

[ian maybury]

Thanks Philip and George, I'll take a closer look too at the Spyderco slips too and would also be interested in knowing if the above is the set in question - it looks from their site like it's quite small (e.g. 1/4in dia )...

[David Barnett]

And the polycrystalline hones just keep getting better the more you use them—the older they get—in my experience, anyway. Your comparisons make plenty of sense to me—rasping, sawing, zipping—yeah, those work. Love the feel of well-broken-in poly stones. Am used to the scratchiness of monocrystallines on gem cutting laps, of course, but for sharpening, only poly will do—only poly will last.


It's my opinion that most of the people who don't like diamond hones because they've been using monocrystalline diamonds.

You're right. And monocrystalline wear profiles don't meet expectations for many users. People who've been disappointed with monocrystalline stones have actually become angry when I tell them my positive diamond sharpening experiences using Eze-laps. Of course, even with Eze-laps, when the overly agressive new cutting characteristics settle into a more broken-in scratch pattern, some folks think they're worn out.


Jasper is super fantastic - a poor man's translucent oilstone, but one with sharper particles.

And jaspers vary, too. I'll get a denser streak pattern on some varieties than others and exploit those differences, especially on gravers and miniature carving tools where the final strokes remove so little metal as to polish or burnish.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm going out to the shop and sharpen some kitchen knives now. But,not sharp enough to shave with!! Not necessary.

I like to get mine sharp enough to shave off thin slices of tomato.

jtk

[george wilson]

Mine will do that just off the 320 grit wheel. A very fine bit of tooth works well.

[Winton Applegate]

Diamond will cut as fast as anyone will need

:o Except of coarse that weird guy Winton; he seems to think he needs his Shapton 120. His Duo Sharp Coarse / Extra coarse 220 just doesn't eat the bevels and backs like he would like it to. And we all know how much time he is willing to waste sharpening. It isn't like he is in a big hurry or anything.

:o But what does he know he is still using those old water stones. They are SOOOOooooo passé.

[David Weaver]

:o But what does he know he is still using those old water stones.

You are using Ara-to? Binsui? Water of Ayr? Escher? Coticule? Ragstone? Hindostan? llyn melynllyn?

Those kind of old sharpening stones?

Or something *really* old, like a kyoto mountain stone from before non-royalty was allowed to have them?

[Winton Applegate]

polycrystalline
I have had this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GLPCO2/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER) in my Amazon queue for a long time watching the price. I don't really need it.
Maybe I should look at a polycrystalline instead.

Is there one in about 120 ?

[David Weaver]

There's one in 150, winton. If it is true to the nature of other eze laps, it will settle in to feeling more like double its grit rating once it's broken in, though.

[Winton Applegate]

Those kind of old sharpening stones?

No . . . Shaptons as in Shaptons OK last week but Shaptons so old fashioned and out of step this week. What happened ? I used to be so hip. I was so hip I had trouble seeing over my pelvis.
Now . . .
. . . I'm just that old guy at the bus stop with the bell bottoms.

. . . sigh.

[Winton Applegate]

What have you to say about how the 120 mono. will end up ?


it will settle in to feeling more like double its grit rating once it's broken in, though.
Oh well there is always the 60 grit paper if I ever need to get crazy on some new blade backs.

[Mike Holbrook]

Interesting thread George. I have a Spyderco Triangle set, 2 medium and 2 fine that I have been using since probably the 80's maybe late 70's. I sharpen kitchen knives with them and I have been very pleased with how well they work with minor upkeep. A few strokes on a knife that is not too dull and I can slice roast or brisket just as thin as I want.

Are any of the stones Stu carries at TFJ (Tools From Japan) similar to the Spyderco's ? I have been looking for stones that I can carry to some of my green woodworking tools. Drawknives, axes, scorps and adzes nay not lend themselves to being sharpened on more conventional water stones. The 2x8" inch stones David mentions might work or maybe Spyderco slips.

[David Weaver]

What have you to say about how the 120 mono. will end up ?


Oh well there is always the 60 grit paper if I ever need to get crazy on some new blade backs.

I think it will end up with dull large diamonds or diamonds that leave the premises entirely, and the ones left will make a deep scratch pattern. I like Mono's of that size better when they're loose.

For heavy bevel work, I'd rather use crystolon. For flattening, either loose diamonds or fresh 3x paper.

[Harold Burrell]

They are easier to use, you'll never consume them and though george won't agree, I like the shapton pros better than the sypdercos. They are my favorite synthetic stone thus far....especially the 1k and 12/15k.

Wait a minute...

"Never consume them"??? Are you speaking in relative terms here, like..."Yeah, well 'never' as in 10 or 15 years..."

Or "never", as in...well...never?

And are we even talking about the same stones? These? http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_402

[David Weaver]

Yeah, those. It's possible you could consume one with decades of heavy use, I guess. In 5 years worth of hobbyist use, I used about a mm (out of 15) off of the 1k.

[Harold Burrell]

I'm actually quite interested in the spyderco's. Because...

1. My shop is not heated in the winter. Working with waterstones becomes kind of a problem when it's 10°.
2. I like the idea of not having to flatten them...as well as them lasting forever.
3. I want to be like George.







(If the truth be known...I also want to be like David. Just without the belly.)

[David Barnett]

What have you to say about how the 120 mono. will end up ?

Moreso with diamond plates than other bench stones, for flattening blades or establishing bevels, I'd start with the least coarse grit that will get the job done and do more work at that grit using less pressure than you might suppose necessary especially when the hone is new, leaving a smoother and shallower scratch pattern in less time. For plane soles and so on, lapping with SiC on cast iron or coarser abrasive papers or films is efficient enough, in my experience.

120 or 150 for monocrystalline is pretty coarse for blade work and will take extra effort at finer grits to mitigate the deeper troughs. Also, in my experience, while the mono hones will settle in their aggressiveness, the rate and quality of cut my disappoint as the hone wears, where the polycrystalline will settle to a level with acceptable speed and satisfying qualities in scratch patterns, feel and longevity. I find that diamond plates really come into their own at around 400 to 600 grit, although 240 and 320 can be useful at times.

Like David Weaver, at coarser grits I prefer loose diamond, as well.


Oh well there is always the 60 grit paper if I ever need to get crazy on some new blade backs.

A not altogether bad option, although I prefer the speed and resulting flatness of lapping.

[David Weaver]

Just without the belly.)

"What's goin on here Mr. Lahey!?"

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks David (-: that is most informative. Goes without saying that I will have to try them, so let's get real for a second: I read reviews on Amazon, 1 guy said its great but it was a nightmare to get flat with his extra coarse dmt. Almost every other review mentioned flatness issues so someone buying them for tools needs a game plane to get them flat. I have a 400 grit atoma, that's not too fast on the gokomyo... So what can one realistically expect? To be שא it for two days? I ask this honestly for anyone interested, I for sure will report the flattening of the stones.

[Robert LaPlaca]

Wait a minute...

"Never consume them"??? Are you speaking in relative terms here, like..."Yeah, well 'never' as in 10 or 15 years..."

Or "never", as in...well...never?

And are we even talking about the same stones? These? http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_402

I have a set of Pro Shaptons 1k/5k/8k that I bought 15 years ago from Harrison Stanley. I would say I got about another 15-25 years left in them, assuming that I don't drop them on the floor first. Best money I ever spent on a woodworking tool..

[David Weaver]

Thanks David (-: that is most informative. Goes without saying that I will have to try them, so let's get real for a second: I read reviews on Amazon, 1 guy said its great but it was a nightmare to get flat with his extra coarse dmt. Almost every other review mentioned flatness issues so someone buying them for tools needs a game plane to get them flat. I have a 400 grit atoma, that's not too fast on the gokomyo... So what can one realistically expect? To be it for two days? I ask this honestly for anyone interested, I for sure will report the flattening of the stones.

I spent about a half hour on the 8x3, but I used the stone *dry* and the atoma *dry* and broomed the ceramic off of it as i needed to. I never got the F, just the UF. If there was a significant amount of material to remove on the stones, they'd be trouble because diamonds are it - you can't use al-ox paper, it just burnishes off the abrasive.

I haven't tried loose diamonds, but that's where I'd go if I had one really out of flat - 100 grit loose diamonds.

I'm thinking about getting the 8x2 and unloading the 8x3 since the 8x3 isn't something I use (I don't use a honing guide). If I get an 8x2, i'll get UF just to avoid the chance of getting a stone with deep milling marks.

[Harold Burrell]

I'm thinking about getting the 8x2 and unloading the 8x3...

Hey there, ol' buddy ol' pal...

I'm thinking that that stone would look good sitting next to my/your LV BU Jack. :D



(And with a sweet enuff deal, I may even take back what I said about your belly.)

[Matthew N. Masail]

I wonder how these compare http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_620_623

[David Weaver]

Hey there, ol' buddy ol' pal...

I'm thinking that that stone would look good sitting next to my/your LV BU Jack. :D

(And with a sweet enuff deal, I may even take back what I said about your belly.)


I'll send you a PM. I think I could almost throw it far enough for it to get there.

[David Weaver]

I wonder how these compare http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_620_623

Never used one, but they look like a harder version of the stones we are used to seeing as modern "ceramic" stones (which have resin binders or something similar). not quite the same thing as a ceramic stone that actually has a ceramic binder (the spydercos being the only one of those that I'm aware of).

Stu could clarify, though. He's probably busy. I could ask him if someone really wants to know, since he and I are on constant peeing contest terms.

[Harold Burrell]

I'll send you a PM. I think I could almost throw it far enough for it to get there.

Better yet, if you drive it here I'll buy you coffee!

[george wilson]

Someone asked about more portable ceramic stones,I think.Google ceramic stones on Amazon. They have many sizes,including 1" x 4" pocket stones. There are at least 5 pages of ceramic stones,and sheaths for the small ones,IIRC.

[Phillip J Allen]

Yup thats it. enjoy.
Phil

[Matthew N. Masail]

Never used one, but they look like a harder version of the stones we are used to seeing as modern "ceramic" stones (which have resin binders or something similar). not quite the same thing as a ceramic stone that actually has a ceramic binder (the spydercos being the only one of those that I'm aware of).

Stu could clarify, though. He's probably busy. I could ask him if someone really wants to know, since he and I are on constant peeing contest terms.

I would really like to know, but only if it's not any trouble. the main reason I ask is that it is much easier for me to buy the dual stone than to buy the Spyderco (shipping wise) but I wonder how they compare in capability and "userness". right now I'm using the hard ark (more like a finer cutting soft ark..) and the black ark, it gives a great edge, but only so so on A2. my main issue at the moment is having to use a water stone as a 1K and then move to the arks. I'm planing on a fine Eze-lap as a 1k, so once I get than nothing is urgent, but it would be nice to know if it's worth the trouble getting the spyderco vs the dual stones. I love my chosera's but this is just a different ball game, and one I prefer to the water system.

[David Weaver]

Your most prudent move with the A2 would be to just get an old junk plane or something, lap the bottom and put 1 micron diamonds on it (or throw them on maple or something).

100 carats of 1 micron diamonds or 1/2 micron diamonds would probably be about $25 plus shipping. It would last almost indefinitely on a piece of mild steel or cast iron, and at the fineness, is no threat to contaminate anything.

[Matthew N. Masail]

not really intrested in that. . .:o I like stones. I have the DMT diamond paste set, would that work? I have a junk plane body.

[David Weaver]

I like stones.

Well, that's a concept I can't really grasp....


haha :)

The diamond paste should be fine for that. You can break the plane casting apart if you want to, also, so that you have a continous surface without a mouth to run into.

[bridger berdel]

You are using Ara-to? Binsui? Water of Ayr? Escher? Coticule? Ragstone? Hindostan? llyn melynllyn?

Those kind of old sharpening stones?

Or something *really* old, like a kyoto mountain stone from before non-royalty was allowed to have them?

Belgian blue. I now have three of them (one being on the back of a coticule). Yes they are soft, but they behave like a no soak waterstone. Fast cutting and very fine. A spritz of alcohol and go.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Well, that's a concept I can't really grasp....


haha :)

The diamond paste should be fine for that. You can break the plane casting apart if you want to, also, so that you have a continous surface without a mouth to run into.

lol :) you ARE the mother ship

I'll be dreaming of making oil stone boxs for the next week..

[Winton Applegate]

Thanks David. Crystolon has the added benefit of being cheep to buy too.

[David Weaver]

Thanks David. Crystolon has the added benefit of being cheep to buy too.

Yes. You just use it with liberal amounts of oil, though, and you must buy it new or you will end up with one that is hard that sheds no particles (and with silicon carbide fracturing into tiny bits, that means you soon have a hard surface of broken down particles).

[Steve Voigt]

Never used one, but they look like a harder version of the stones we are used to seeing as modern "ceramic" stones (which have resin binders or something similar). not quite the same thing as a ceramic stone that actually has a ceramic binder (the spydercos being the only one of those that I'm aware of).

Stu could clarify, though. He's probably busy. I could ask him if someone really wants to know, since he and I are on constant peeing contest terms.
I'd certainly be interested in knowing stu's opinion on those. I'm definitely intrigued by the idea of a synthetic "oilstone."

[David Weaver]

I'll see what he says.

[David Weaver]

Belgian blue. I now have three of them (one being on the back of a coticule). Yes they are soft, but they behave like a no soak waterstone. Fast cutting and very fine. A spritz of alcohol and go.

I have three on the backs of coticules. I never spent the time with coticules that I should have, mostly because they excel at a gentle edge, but not necessarily fast for their level of keenness.

I can't remember if you shave or not, but they are my go to when I have a razor that wants to chip on everything else, and they are one of the tougher stones to really get keenness out of with a razor - they are completely unlike anything else.

[Stan Suther]

With all the chatter over the years of reading posts about various stones, I've often wondered why the ceramics were not mentioned more often. I guess I lucked up many years ago when I bought a set of 2" Spydercos plus the set of small ceramic shapes at a carving show. Now I keep them with my diamond set to tackle pretty much any sharpening need I have, all with just a spritz of soapy water. Nice to see some confirmation from others that I don't need to crave any other high priced stones. My old set of water stones will last forever because I never use them with all their muddy mess.

[bridger berdel]

The coticule I reserve for straights, but the belgian blue I really enjoy as a finishing stone for chisels and planes.

[Harold Burrell]

My old set of water stones will last forever because I never use them with all their muddy mess.

Are you kidding? That is why I use them. I LOVE the muddy mess.

Why...sometimes I do my sharpening while sitting in a puddle in my driveway. It's that whole 2nd childhood thing, I guess...

;)

[george wilson]

Pretty much my thoughts too,Stan.

[David Weaver]

I got a response from stu. He said they are (thedual stones) extremely hard and he recommends people get instead a version that has a hard and soft side (the gokumyo ryo) so that if you can't tolerate the hard stone (which does cut fairly slow compared to a friable stone, as do the spydercos), you still have a fast cutting surface to fall back on. (presume that takes oil out of the equation, but not many people use oil, anyway)

I do agree with him to some extent, that beginners will find the spydercos hard to deal with, especially if you need to remove a lot of wear. You can wake up the sypdercos with an atoma, though, but that does add about $80 to the cost of the package, maybe a little more.

[Chris Griggs]

I sent Chris G my spyderco UF completely broken in and glazed and I think he was probably confused about its usefulness, and maybe felt it wasn't OK to beat up the surface to speed up the cut. when they are new (iirc, the particle size is about 3 microns) they cut unbelievably fast, but that soon goes away and they settle in to what they're going to do long term.

Just saw this. Yep, exactly, it was so worn in I didn't know what to do with it. It didn't seem like it was doing anything, not even polishing...even less then a worn in HTA. In hind site should have hit it with some diamond or at least scrubbed it with some bon ami or something to get it to do a little more. Still I've been thinking about getting an 8x2 UF ever since (and maybe a brown and/or 600 grit "fine" eze lap) How aggressive is the brown...is it like a 1k water stone in aggressiveness or more like something in the 3-5k range? Am I understanding George's system correctly that you really want to raise the burr with something like a 600 grit diamond stone , bridge with the brown, before finishing with the UF?

I barely use my water stones lately. They remain my favorite way to actually hone, but in my little sinkless shop I tend not to bother to pull them out, and use my washita followed by my surgical black or HTA stones instead...which is great for my vintage planes but not ideal for my modern planes/chisel/or turning tools.

[David Weaver]

I just went down today and played with the ceramic again today. Chris, I'd say that three step is about right - three dry stones - a diamond, the brown medium and then the UF.

My UF had again gotten to that no cutting state, and even bon ami won't bring it back from that. Diamonds definitely will, but it goes nuts after diamonds. I found the chosera rub stone works well with it - it's just strong enough on the surface to clean it off and knock the glaze off. The fact that you can have that much control over what it does (from scuffing with diamonds to not cutting at all) is what makes me think it will puzzle newbies a little bit when waterstones pretty much cut the same speed all the time.

I got the sense from stu that he feels like the dual stone's hardness and slow cutting will do the same. The spydercos would drive me nuts using a guide.

As far as the brown's speed, when it's brand spanking new, it cuts fast, but it settles in and I'd call it similar speed to a 2k or 3k waterstone. If you sharpen by lifting the chisel or plane off of it's primary and work a tiny area, you could use it like that fairly well. If you're working a larger area, an ezelap 600 is a nice starting point, especially after it breaks in.

Spyderco's website said the alumina in the ceramic is 3-5 microns, which explains why they cut as mad fast as they do when they're new (I don't know if the brown is the same size, though).

With the stone as I sent to chris, I can get a sharper edge than I can with any other stone with a very heavy hand and about 30 seconds of work lifting a chisel handle a little, but it is not a practical way to use it. It's just a good way to pass a hanging hair test with a stone for entertainment. It probably makes an edge that rivals a gokumyo 20k, but the gok 20 makes that edge no matter what way you use it.

(and I'm not suggesting anyone should get a gokumyo 20k for woodworking)

I ordered an 8x2 UF already. If harold doesn't buy my 8x3 because I'm poo pooing it as being a bad stone for guides (and I think it's a horrible stone for a honing guide), I'll sell it to a razor sharpener or a knife fanatic. They are stones for a freehander where the flexibility is an asset. In my estimation, stones that remove material fast are better for guides.

[george wilson]

Yes,Chris. Use the diamond stone to create a "sharp",but ragged edge(no little bright line on the edge,which means there's a flat spot there(hope that makes sense). The brown ceramic will quickly hone off the scratches made by the diamond. The white will polish the edge and finish it up. I still like to strop a few times on my MDF strop with green CrO buffing compound on it from LV. I get an edge suitable for anything I need to do pretty efficiently.

Don't expect the white ceramic to remove much metal,though. It's too fine. Used in this little system,it works well and does what it needs to do.

Guess David beat me to the punch here.

[Chris Griggs]

Got it. Thanks Dave and George! Chosera rub stone...great idea!....I have one of those somewhere that I don't use for anything. Given that I work in a shop with no sink and use multiple steel types, sounds this really would be a convenient system for me. Thanks for the clarification.

[Steve Voigt]

Thanks for checking. I guess I should have specified "from the perspective of an oil stone user." I was interested in the idea of the fine dual stone as an alternative to a hard black ark.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I barely use my water stones lately. They remain my favorite way to actually hone, but in my little sinkless shop I tend not to bother to pull them out, and use my washita followed by my surgical black or HTA stones instead...which is great for my vintage planes but not ideal for my modern planes/chisel/or turning tools.

I feel the same way. a shop without a sink is not so water stone friendly. I thought the soakless stones would help but it's still pretty much the same minus the soak tub. I don't think I'll be selling the Chosera, but they will probably see very limited use. funny thing is, I can get the edge I want with these "slow cutting stones" faster than I would with water stones.

[Mike Holbrook]

Could a Veritas Steel Honing Plate with diamond dust or paste be used instead of a ezlap 600 for the coarser work? The steel plate and paste might not wear down like manufactured diamond plates can. I bought a Dia-Flat Lapping Plate and I am concerned that I may have "dulled" it considerably repairing a used Japanese chisel. It might be nice to have a 400-600 devise that would be as durable as the Spyderco ceramic stones. Unfortunately most of the diamond pastes I find seem to be 6,3 & 1 microns which I believe are more for final honing like the Spyderco ceramic stones.

Is a Japanese Nagura stone similar to a Chosera? Will either work to rough and maybe flatten Spydercos? Amazon offers a few of each. Some of the descriptions reveal the grit in the stones and some just suggest that the stone is for leveling and roughing other stones. I would be more comfortable with some idea about what grit size I was using to rough or flatten the Spyderco brown & white stones.

[Kees Heiden]

Would these "Missarkastones" be the same as the Spiderco's? http://www.fine-tools.com/kuns.htm
I don't think Spiderco is available overhere.

I have two slipstones from them, but don't use them very much. I seem to prefer my vintage oilstone slips for gouges.

[David Weaver]

Something different. I haven't seen those before, but they look like sintered aluminum oxide and pink grinding wheel material on one side and silicon carbide on the other in a more traditional type of crystolon stone.

There was also a type of stone that was sold in europe called arkeram, which was either bonded or sintered novaculite. I think it's still sold.

The spyderco stones are something completely different - they do have a binder, and the binder is extremely hard.

[David Weaver]

Could a Veritas Steel Honing Plate with diamond dust or paste be used instead of a ezlap 600 for the coarser work? The steel plate and paste might not wear down like manufactured diamond plates can. I bought a Dia-Flat Lapping Plate and I am concerned that I may have "dulled" it considerably repairing a used Japanese chisel. It might be nice to have a 400-600 devise that would be as durable as the Spyderco ceramic stones. Unfortunately most of the diamond pastes I find seem to be 6,3 & 1 microns which I believe are more for final honing like the Spyderco ceramic stones.

Is a Japanese Nagura stone similar to a Chosera? Will either work to rough and maybe flatten Spydercos? Amazon offers a few of each. Some of the descriptions reveal the grit in the stones and some just suggest that the stone is for leveling and roughing other stones. I would be more comfortable with some idea about what grit size I was using to rough or flatten the Spyderco brown & white stones.

I don't love loose diamonds in medium fineness, because they present a contamination problem on fine stones and they don't break down.

ezelaps break in quickly, but last a long time, and on amazon are inexpensive (well usually. They were $34 for a while for the 600,then they went way up, went back to $34 and are now $48. I don't know why they are screwing us around with them selling them almost at their suggested retail, which is only $51 - something you'd expect to find only at a brick and mortar woodworking supply store).

Chosera's nagura is a 600 grit waterstone, more coarse and different than most synthetic naguras. They are cheap (10 bucks in europe), but for some reason are not offered individually here.

[Mike Holbrook]

David et al: EZE-Lap 3x8, 600 grit- vs 400x Atoma (Veritas is what I was looking at though I know Stu has 400 & 600 too)- Vs DiaSharp 3x8, 600 grit- vs Sigma Power Select II Ceramic 240X (at LV) or Sigma PSII 400X from Stu?

At current prices the Eze-Lap, DiaSharp and Sigma Power Select II "stones" are close enough in price that I would not consider the price difference in any decision between them. The Atoma is around twice as much, I suspect the design of the Atoma surface may make a rougher finish but last substantially longer.

Maybe I should say I have a Sigma Power, 3F Carbon- 700, which is why I had been leaning toward a 400 or 240 diamond plate or Select II. I suspect that a 600grit diamond plate will cut substantially faster than the Sigma 700 though. I have a small 2nd kitchen in the room next to my shop area, so water is fairly convenient. Of course part of the attraction of the "dry" stones is the reduction in prep, cleaning and need for water.

[David Barnett]

ezelaps break in quickly, but last a long time, and on amazon are inexpensive (well usually. They were $34 for a while for the 600,then they went way up, went back to $34 and are now $48. I don't know why they are screwing us around with them selling them almost at their suggested retail, which is only $51 - something you'd expect to find only at a brick and mortar woodworking supply store).

While I consider any Eze-lap superior—longer lasting, better cutting/scratch pattern—to equally priced diamond stones, the best deal going right now is the 2 1/2" x 11 3/8" x 3/8" 600-grit stone for $56.14 (http://www.amazon.com/EZE-LAP-121F-11-3-Diamond-Stone/dp/B002RL8494), model 121F, retail $74.95. This is a hefty stone with lots of real estate and 2 1/2" is plenty of width. I've had mine in constant use for almost 20 years.

[Phil Stone]

While I consider any Eze-lap superior—longer lasting, better cutting/scratch pattern—to equally priced diamond stones, the best deal going right now is the 2 1/2" x 11 3/8" x 3/8" 600-grit stone for $56.14 (http://www.amazon.com/EZE-LAP-121F-11-3-Diamond-Stone/dp/B002RL8494), model 121F, retail $74.95. This is a hefty stone with lots of real estate and 2 1/2" is plenty of width. I've had mine in constant use for almost 20 years.

Patience with me please, I'm trying to keep up with this fascinating discussion. What do you use the Eze-lap for, David? Initial bevel?

[David Barnett]

Patience with me please, I'm trying to keep up with this fascinating discussion. What do you use the Eze-lap for, David? Initial bevel?

The 600-grit Eze-Lap is so versatile I use it for lots of things. If you were to have only one diamond stone, this would be it.

For everyday woodworking, after grinding the initial bevel on a 7" white wheel, I use the Eze-Lap before moving on, usually to 1µ (14,000-grit) diamond on a cast iron lap.

[george wilson]

Eze lap is for the initial bevel.

[Mike Holbrook]

As George mentions in the parlance of this now 7 page discussion, the Eze-Lap is used to set the bevel and the brown & white Spyderco, super hard, ceramic stones are used to finish & polish the bevel.

David mentions, somewhere early in this conversation, that he prefers the 2" Spyderco stones and mentions selling off his 3" stones to buy 2" stones. I think this is because most plane blades will cover the entire surface while they are being sharpened, reducing irregularities like dishing in the surface. I have noticed this issue too. I also need sharpening devices I can take to larger green woodworking tools that are hard/impossible to move over large stationary stones. I found a double sided 2x6" Eze-Lap (600 & 1200), mounted in a plastic holder, containing an anti scratch pad for the work surface for $45.82. I think the holder ends could serve as handles when using it against larger tools. I jumped on it, hoping it will work well with the 2" Spydercos. I am trying out a Spyderco long fine file/slipstone, for curved surfaces, too.

[Mike Holbrook]

Rereading the early post, David mentions something about Coors making ceramic sharpening devices.

I use to use ceramic water filters when our backpacking group had to have "fresh" water in remote areas. Pumping water through a ceramic filter removes just about anything, up to or maybe including viruses, as I recall. The issue with ceramic filters being the slow rate that water can be pumped through them and the difficulty of removing fine particles from the surface with a simple brush. Cloudy water tended to slow down the pumping rate fast. As I recall, when a filter got too slow to use one could trade it in on a "clean" filter. I believe "dirty" filters went back to the manufacturer for some process that removed the material blocking the pores so they could be used again.

I can see how such filters might serve Coors. It makes sense that Coors might have use for a very fine filter that could make "mountain water" safe & tasty to drink. Chemical treatment and undesirable particles will certainly alter the taste of water. If the Spyderco ceramic is made by Coors or similar to the Coors material then I imagine it has exceptionally fine particles in a very consistent matrix.

[David Weaver]

I should clarify that the division that makes the ceramics is called CoorsTek, as Pat mentioned. I remember hearing somewhere that they were a separate company, and wikipedia suggests that it's a company owned by the Coors family trust, separate from miller coors.

It appears that it had a pretty varied history, from products to ownership, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoorsTek

No clue what % of their business is from the various parts, but they make crucibles, alumina abrasive, ceramic armor, exhaust parts, ....

I'd imagine that their filters are for low volume work (wiki says micro medical or something), I don't think it would make much of a difference if they got the water for the coors beer directly from a pond!

The spydercos are extremely consistent, by the way. You likely won't be able to tell, though, because they don't release particles like most stones do.

It'll be interesting to see what folks think about them - my personal opinion is that it's critical to be a freehand sharpener and not expect them to remove much metal. People used to modern fast cutting japanese waterstones will probably get frustrated by them.

[Kees Heiden]

Well, it looks like I can get them overhere in The Netherlands too!

http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/ct/spyderco-slijpstenen.htm

Hmm, something to think about...

[Mike Holbrook]

David, I think the issue with using spring, mountain or any surface water is even clear water often contains Giardia which can make people quite sick. Chemicals will kill Giardia and viruses but they change taste. I have used filtered well water for the last 17 years and I can't even stand the smell of "city" water now. City water, in my location, smells and tastes like chlorine. A common water filtration method is to treat water chemically then filter it through activated charcoal or even sand. I think ceramic is a finer filter than activated charcoal, which may eliminate the need for certain chemicals that might still be recognizable even after filtering through activated charcoal.

Any knowledge I have on this subject is limited to small backpacking pumps and home wells though. I think the point is, manufacturing ceramic to be a reusable, very fine water filter would certainly require a very fine matrix. If we could get someone at one of the Coors companies to reveal how they clean ceramic filters we might have a better idea how we could clean our stones.

My triangular, "white" Spyderco stones, after decades of use, are now dark gray but they still works quite well. So far all I have done is rinse them off occasionally. The corners of the triangle stones are designed to be used. I often use the corners as I often sharpen both serrated and regular knives. Spyderco suggests that the corners are more aggressive than the flat sides. I still find that the dark flat sides work on my kitchen knives though.

[David Weaver]

David, I think the issue with using spring or mountain water is much of it contains Giardia which can make people quite sick. Chemicals will kill Giardia and viruses but they change taste. I have used filtered well water for the last 17 years and I can't even stand the smell of "city" water now. City water smells and tastes like chlorine. A common method is to treat water chemically then filter it through activated charcoal. I think ceramic is a finer filter than activated charcoal, which may eliminate the need for certain chemicals that might still be recognizable after filtering through activated charcoal.

Any knowledge I have on this subject is limited to small pumping situations though.

I figured they'd use activated charcoal, too. So I googled around and coors says that in a plant they built in virginia, they use a membrane system, but that most breweries (maybe theirs too?) use "fossilized plankton" on a wire mesh. I'd assume that's diatomaceous earth that they're talking about. Bizarre.

Our brewer here just used city water and filtered the chlorine out.

I can't find anything on the coorstek site that suggests using ceramic as a pass-through filter, rather they boast the use of their ceramic tubing as chemical resistant to transport fluids and chemicals in the filtration process (so it sounds like the ceramic is a conduit and not the filter).

It'd be interesting if anyone on here has worked in a large brewery and had any thoughts. Interesting topic.

[David Weaver]

Well, it looks like I can get them overhere in The Netherlands too!

http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/ct/spyderco-slijpstenen.htm

Hmm, something to think about...

They're expensive there!!

[Ryan Mooney]

It'd be interesting if anyone on here has worked in a large brewery and had any thoughts. Interesting topic.

Haha water chemistry, a subject even more controversial and complicated than sharpening stones!

If you REALLY want to know you can get a copy of http://www.brewerspublications.com/books/water-a-comprehensive-guide-for-brewers/ and then you'll not understand it just as well as the rest of us (that is to say its a fascinating read - if you're as much of a nerd about it as I am - and you'll feel more educated when you're done but don't expect to understand more about the issue).

The short version is if there is a water treatment process there is probably a brewery somewhere that is using it for some of their beers.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't think it would make much of a difference if they got the water for the coors beer directly from a pond!

It would likely add some flavor to their brew.

jtk

[ken hatch]

What is the effective "grit" of the brown stone? Where does it fall in say a range of diamond stones? I'm most familiar with the DMT line but I'm interested in the EZE-LAP as well.

Thanks,

ken

[David Weaver]

When it's brand new, it's more aggressive than any 1000 stone I've seen, but it doesn't stay that way for long - a characteristic of any stone that doesn't release particles. I'd consider it like a 2000-3000 grit waterstone, a middle stone. It's necessary before the white stone because once the white UF stone settles in, it doesn't cut fast enough to remove the scratches from a 1000 grit waterstone or diamond stone.

The only abrasive I've ever seen that's truly durable under hand use without shedding anything is diamonds (and then in that case, what binds them to things often isn't).

I don't personally like diamonds on carbon steels, it's just my preference, but there is no doubt that they have zero regard for anything that is in any type of tool or high speed steel. I have a HAP40 chisel that I got from stu tierney in some horse trading. That's the same thing as M4. It is the last thing you'd ever want to maintain without a grinder and if you had a solid chisel made out of it (as opposed to laminated), you wouldn't even like to grind it, it causes even friable grinder wheels to get burnished. BUT, an ezelap diamond hone raises a wire edge on it and cuts through ever bit of it like nothing. It makes you question whether or not the steel is even that tough...until you go use the chisel or try to sharpen it on anything else.

CBN is also harder than any carbide I can think of (vanadium carbides being the most problematic in stuff we use), but it's more expensive than diamonds and its virtues:
* gentler grooves than diamonds
* can tolerate high speed grinding without migrating away - diamonds cannot

Don't offer us anything as hand tool honers.

Anyway, for an all dry honing setup, a diamond hone, a spyderco medium (brown) and a UF or F makes a good setup. That said, I don't think the setup offers any benefit above an ezelap 600 followed by loose 1 micron diamonds (which is faster and just as fine feeling when you use it).

I guess I'm saying at this point the spydercos are a bit esoteric in the era of fine and FAST cutting cheap abrasives, but then again, I'm the guy using a washita stone...

[Mike Holbrook]

Several of my outdoor buddies contracted Giardia from surface water and or shallow spring water. I understand that none of them care to repeat the experience. I am also reading that Cryptosporidium (the organism most commonly isolated in HIV-positive patients presenting with diarrhea) is another Protozoa, like Giardia, with a hard protective outer layer making it resistant to many types of water treatment. Bacteria like E. coli and dysentery are larger pathogens that live in water, but like the Protozoa they are relatively easy to filter from water. Viruses, like Hepatitis A, may be less likely to occur but are not removed by common filtration systems. Be careful what you drink!

Based on the research I just did I don't think I will try filtering my water with my ceramic Spyderco stones though.

[Kees Heiden]

They're expensive there!!

Everything is expensive overhere. You should try to fill up a gastank...

[David Weaver]

Several of my outdoor buddies contracted Giardia from surface water and or shallow spring water. I understand that none of them care to repeat the experience. I am also reading that Cryptosporidium (the organism most commonly isolated in HIV-positive patients presenting with diarrhea) is another Protozoa, like Giardia, with a hard protective outer layer making it resistant to many types of water treatment. Bacteria like E. coli and dysentery are larger pathogens that live in water, but like the Protozoa they are relatively easy to filter from water. Viruses, like Hepatitis A, may be less likely to occur but are not removed by common filtration systems. Be careful what you drink!

Based on the research I just did I don't think I will try filtering my water with my ceramic Spyderco stones though.

Viruses were what was mentioned when I looked up the ceramic filters - though a lot of the little ones were combination charcoal and ceramic (speaking of the survival type or prepper type, two things I don't know anything about). They were described (ceramics) to filter bacteria but not viruses. Apparently ceramic filters encompass everything from very precise slow flow devices to things that look like flower pots.

CDC described Giardia basically as having haley's comet or shooting star diarrhea - where you might see a friend go into orbit.....

.....OK that was my summary of their description - I think they may have used the word "violent" and "persistent".

For untreated water, one of the other handbooks also suggested a higher concentration of chlorine for a longer period of time for Gardia. Sounds similar to bacterial spores, which is a bugaboo on the razor forums (except nobody knows anyone who ever got that, Giardia looks to actually be common itself). Some of the bacterial spores can survive a long duration of boiling or chlorine and were listed as being destroyed by autoclave or boiling for more than four hours. That interested factoid came up because people were arguing about how they should clean straight razors.

[Steve Friedman]

I've been away so I'm a little late to the party, but want to add that I was not willing to destroy my waterstones with carving gouges and took George's recommendation to get the Spyderco's for that purpose. Money well spent. Of course none of them were flat, but my Atoma #140 and some sweat took care of that. Would not have wanted to flatten the UF with the Atoma #400.

My one gripe about the Spyderco's is that I still don't understand how they work. If I understand correctly, the size of the abrasive particles in all three grades (M, F, and UF) is the same. One report I read was that the only difference was the binder and how quickly it breaks down. If I recall correctly, I believe the particle size was around 3 micron, which would mean that the scratches from the UF would never get any smaller than that. But I don't think that's true. Maybe it just breaks down into smaller particles. I think Spyderco represents the UF as around a 2000 grit equivalent, but that's clearly not 2000 grit in water stone parlance. Sounds like it's referring to 2000 grit in Wet/Dry SiC paper terms, which is around 1 micron.

I have also read that the difference in the stones is the surface treatment, but that bothers me. If the only difference between the F and the UF is the surface of the stone, didn't I just destroy that difference when I flattened the stones with my diamond plate?


Water stones make much more sense to me and I definitely prefer them for flat blades, but the Spyderco's are excellent for the gouges and make a great travelling sharpening kit. I do agree with David W that the Medium cuts more like a 2000 or 3000 water stone. The UF is really ultra fine.

Just want to add that for repairing edges, establishing primary bevels, and back flattening, I think PSA sandpaper (I use 3M Gold) is easier and quicker than diamond plates (or anything else) and like the fact that that abrasive breaks down. It seems to make removing the scratches much easier. I start with 80 grit until the heavy lifting is done and then spend just a few seconds on the 220 and 400 grit before moving to the stones.

That's it for now.

Steve

[ken hatch]

Thanks David,

Sounds like the brown stone, once settled in, would fit between the DMT extra fine and the extra extra fine (3mu) stones.

ken

[David Weaver]

Steve, as far as fineness, I don't know that the particles break down so much as they are dulled. There are a lot of posts online and descriptions from different sellers of stones claiming that the grit breaks down, but I think that the important step in stones cutting finer than their particle size is much more about whether or not the stone will hold on to the particle and allow it to dull. When the rubber hits the road with razors, a stone that holds its particles cuts finest when they're dulled and the stone is used then on clear water (meaning no loose particles floating around or being smashed up). It would be nice if someone would use an SEM on a stone broken in vs. one freshly lapped vs. one that has the particles "crushed" as japanese natural stones are often described as having.

In a stone like arkansas stones and the spydercos, the binder/sides of the pits probably do some of the cutting, and particles stuck together act as a group to be more like a large particle. When spyderco says (on their page) that the stones have particles from 3 to 5 microns, they probably are talking about the alumina fired into the stones, but the binder itself is a ceramic, what type we don't know, but they are generally abrasive and crystalline so if the particles stay together and have pits, they can act together whereas waterstones release the particles individually. If they made a stone that had 20 micron peaks molded into it, it would behave like a 20 micron stone until it dulled.

Like oilstones, you decide how you want to grade the stone (i.e., if you just want to clean it, or if you want to score the surface with a diamond hone and literally allow the scratches to do abrasive work), or if you don't want to grade them at all and just let them burnish.

I think they use the term 2000 grit because in terms of the grading system that oilstones used (not the JIS standard), that's probably about where 3 microns is. Natural Whetstone uses the terms 1200 and 1400 grit for their black and dark gray translucent stones, but broken in, they will bring an edge to a razor that a 8000 japanese stone will not.

In terms of ease and evenness, the waterstones have spoiled us with how consistent they are.

[Steve Friedman]

Thanks David.

Have never used oil stones (yet), but using only sandpaper, diamonds, and water stones makes it seem very weird to think that the abrasiveness of a stone can be based on something other than the size of the abrasive particles. But it does seem that the Spyderco's work more like oil stones in that regard. I can't imagine that the surface treatment alone is enough to change the abrasiveness of a stone, but the flaw is that it's based on my experience with water stones where flattening with a #140 diamond plate will make a stone more aggressive than the same stone flattened with a #400 plate. But, that effect is only temporary and quickly disappears. I guess I need to get my head around the concept that the way in which a stone works can be independent of the abrasive size. Probably the most difficult aspect for me is that Spyderco doesn't really share information well. They give out information, but it tends to be vague. I'm guessing just protecting their proprietary information.

Steve

[jean drabinowski]

Thanks David.

I guess I need to get my head around the concept that the way in which a stone works can be independent of the abrasive size.

Steve

The ceramic would be composed of polycrystalline grains. The ceramic binder is likely an aluminum oxide metalorganic precursor. Ceramic firing is normally composed of two major operations: nucleation and grain growth. The starting powder is used to nucleate the grains. The density of the grit in the binder determines the the grain packing (and spacing). The grit acts to nucleate the grain. During the sinter, the binder decomposes and to some extent becomes part of the poly grain, which typically gets bigger with longer sintering anneals. This grain size determines the grit of the stone and can be greatly influenced by the anneal conditions.

[David Barnett]

During the sinter, the binder decomposes and to some extent becomes part of the poly grain, which typically gets bigger with longer sintering anneals. This grain size determines the grit of the stone and can be greatly influenced by the anneal conditions.

When I used to make my own primitive and naive ceramic gem carving points and wheels, batches could fire hit or miss in a fairly narrow range of usefulness.

From last year's thread on ceramic flattening:
____________________________________________
As Henry Hunt says in Lapidary Carving for Creative Jewelry —

"The important thing in making ceramic grinding wheels is the temperature at which they are fired. Too high and the wheel is so hard it won't cut. Too low and the wheel wears away between eye blinks. A difference of 100° can make or break you as a wheelmaker."

And believe me, there's a lot to learn within that 100° and a lot more to it than temperature alone, which is just one reason most gem carvers have migrated to electrobond or sintered diamond points & wheels or to high-diamond-density pastes on wood.
____________________________________________

So same abrasive, same grit size, same binder, widely varying results from time and temp, cooling rates, and so on, yield different cutting characteristics even within the useful range. Makes one appreciate ready-made.

[Warren Mickley]

Here are some pictures of razor edges from Tim Zowada's site that point out the foolishness of the old 20th century grit comparison charts. Here are two pictures of razors sharpened with 12k chinese stone, one with slurry, one without. These are the same 12k stone!
295581295582

Here is Shapton 15k for comparison.
295586

Here are Hard Arkansas and Translucent Arkansas.
295587295588

I have these two Arkansas stones and I think the difference is not as great as the pictures indicate. I suspect one is more broken in (worn) than the other.

[David Weaver]

I agree with your last comment, Warren. I, for giggles, took pictures of the edge of a razor after a translucent arkansas and a chinese stone and found that all of my stones imparted more scratching than the picture on the right - including a vintage japanese barber hone. I think the method tim uses has some bias toward not picking up shallow grooves.

I have or have had every stone in those pictures, and would conclude that nobody would tolerate sharpening tools to the level of the pictures on the right because they are "weight of the razor" strokes, and even laying just the weight of a plane iron on a stone would create much deeper scratches than those.

Coincidentally, one of the keenest shaves I got in the whole experiment came from a hone in a strop-top box - a brownish washita hone that, to exemplify how everything is not just put it down and drag it, created a fairly rough hone on the first shave, but after linen and strop and then several more light passes, created an edge that was about as sharp as any razor edge I've used, despite the fact that it left visible scratches.

I will post these pictures a little later.

[David Weaver]

Pictures - these are all final finish versions of each stone. I have a set of LEDs on the end of this cheap microscope right against the picture, so scratches appear more severe than they really are. Every single one of these razor bevels appears as a bright polish with the naked eye. the only thing that matters on a razor is what's going on at the edge, and how wide the edge is after it's been stropped (which you can't see with a visual microscope, it takes an SEM with some kind of measuring device to figure that out).

Ozaki mine vintage japanese barber hone:
295589

Novaculite 1 - bone colored semi-translucent (a fairly dense stone well into true hardness)

295590

Novaculite 2 - a gray translucent with density 2.8 specific gravity+ (pretty close to the maximum you could get from novaculite stones):

295591
(apologies that with a cheap microscope and cheap camera, this looks much different than the prior picture, but they're similar - for whatever reason, the angle caused the light and the software's interpretation of it to make them look a little different)

Owyhee Jasper
295592

Chinese agate (gave the best shave of these stones - despite the edge appearance, but totally unsuitable for woodworking - an *extremely* excruciatingly slow stone)
295593

The bevel that is shown here is a fraction of a millimeter. For the uninitiated, a straight razor's angle is set by it's height and spine width (it's essentially built like a large honing guide to keep the angle consistent). The scratches on the bevel don't always tell an accurate story of how the razor shaves post strop.

All of the little fuzzy bits of light that show up on here are removed by the strop.

If I use graded chromium oxide powder on a lap, I can make what looks almost like a dark (polished) bevel even at the level of this microscope, but the shave is hardly any better than it is with these stones. The reality is that the particles in these stones are much larger than 0.5 microns, but there is more to the result than the width of the grit.

These edges are all close enough together that if I use a subpar strop (like a new cowhide strop) the razor that gets a broken in horse butt strop (which has a reflective surface) will be sharper than the one that's stropped on cowhide.

[Jeff Posten]

FWIW, I lost access to a utility sink during a recent move, and now just use a 5 gallon bucket (with lid to control evaporation when not in use). A quick soak for a couple minutes and they're ready to work. And when I need to flatten, I simply rinse them off in the same bucket. I used to use separate buckets for each stone, but now just use one single bucket and haven't noticed any contamination.

Jeff

[David Weaver]

I got the 2x8 UF in the mail tonight, and it has only the tiniest lightest mill marks in it, nothing I'd be concerned about.

And it's flat enough to use out of the box. I could lap it just to be sure, but after lapping the 8x3 before, I'll wait to see if I really need to do that.

...just went down to the shop after typing the above, can't do much with a baby asleep, but I did get to work an old pexto chisel on the brown then the UF and this one is not as aggressive out of the box as the 8x3 was, it's super fine, imparts a very bright polish (used dry) and with lifting the handle of the chisel a little bit (since it's a slow cutting stone), it works a lot like an oilstone would, but even slower, and finer than any of my oilstones.

It's actually subjectively paring across the end of a board as sharp as anything I've used, and I've used a lot of things.

[Mike Holbrook]

I just got a set too George/David. The UF does seem smoother than my old fine stones. One of the things I have found concerning the old triangular stones is, no one can tell they have been sharpened. The fine, slow abrasive allows me to work the original bevel so closely there is no visible change to the bevel. If one turns the knife the right way in the light one might see how much shinier the bevel is, but the bevels on kitchen knives are so small that unless you know what you are looking for you will never know that the once dull knife is now very sharp. Unfortunately my mother & sisters have cut themselves a few times after asking me to sharpen their knives. They do not see any change and start handling the sharpened knives like they were still dull. "Never cut towards yourself, it isn't necessary with a sharp knife" but who follows that sage advise?

I like the 2x6", 400/1200 Eze-Lap too, although I have not had the chance to use it. The plastic it is mounted on does make convenient little handles for working the diamond plates over larger tools, allowing me to use the entire surface of the plates.

[David Weaver]

I think it's pretty much universal that if you sharpen your knives to a level where they shave hair easily, someone is going to have a problem with them. When my wife's friends come over, I usually put tape on the handle of any knife that's been recently sharpened, and they avoid them (so does my wife).

I sharpen my wife's knives only with a 1k diamond hone and then steel them, but my wife's friends have problems with those, too.

The spydercos seem pretty ideal for knife touch ups because they're hard enough to bend the bevel on a soft knife AND sharpen it (oilstones are nice to use, too). I'm cheap about some things and don't like stones that are designed to blast away a large part of the edge of a knife while sharpening it. Same with razors. I'd like to keep as much of the metal as possible, and the spydercos are definitely sparing on the metal.

[Charles Bjorgen]

I also bit on the Spyderco UF, received it a couple of days ago. Checked with a straight edge it seemed to not be really flat. I used the iWood 300 diamond with a little soapy water and it flattened each side in less than five minutes each. Worked a couple plane blades that needed freshening and they responded well. Nicely polished too. I'm impressed enough that I also ordered the medium stone which may arrive today. I also don't have a water supply in my shop. Thanks for the tip, George.

Also thanks to David W. for explaining the virtues of free handing blades over the width of two-inch stones that actually helps prevent uneven wear. Once I started doing this it made perfect sense.

[Vijay Kumar]

I got the 2x8 UF in the mail tonight, and it has only the tiniest lightest mill marks in it, nothing I'd be concerned about.

And it's flat enough to use out of the box. I could lap it just to be sure, but after lapping the 8x3 before, I'll wait to see if I really need to do that.

...just went down to the shop after typing the above, can't do much with a baby asleep, but I did get to work an old pexto chisel on the brown then the UF and this one is not as aggressive out of the box as the 8x3 was, it's super fine, imparts a very bright polish (used dry) and with lifting the handle of the chisel a little bit (since it's a slow cutting stone), it works a lot like an oilstone would, but even slower, and finer than any of my oilstones.

It's actually subjectively paring across the end of a board as sharp as anything I've used, and I've used a lot of things.

David what did you use to lap the ceramic stone?
Vijay

[David Weaver]

David what did you use to lap the ceramic stone?
Vijay

Atoma 400 - dry. Don't let too much swarf build up on the surface - brush it off before it adds up to much.

[Vijay Kumar]

Thank you David. Just purchased the UF 3x8.
Vijay

[Fidel Fernandez]

I was so curious about the ceramic stones, that I order the 3 stones (M, F and UF).
I got Saturday 9/6 the M and F and what a surprise. I have to clarify that I had tried honing jigs for sharpening and I cannot make them work.
I can get sharp, but I cannot feel it is a razor sharp. It doesn't last.
I stick with what I know, free hand.

I had a bad experience 2 weeks ago with a jig, so I decided free hand is the way to go for me.

Well, back to the ceramic stones. It was so easy to sharp with the M and F. I was planning Ash and It was like butter. I could hear my stanley 5 ½ singing (shhshsh!!!). I got the UF today (Amazon delivers 7 days a week in Houston).
I got the wire edge so easy.
I have to say that If I have to reshape the angle, then I will go to my Diamond plate XC and C and then go back to the ceramic.

I feel like I am in Nirvana.

I read from David Weaver this it is the initial state of the stone, later they will settle down. He mentions that he used a stone to revive the ceramics.
I wonder if I can use a some passes with my diamond coarse to do the same?
How long will last this initial state before the settle down?

[Noah Wagener]

Those magnification pictures are remarkable to me. I can get a clear polish with a Shapton 15 k almost instantaneously but yet can see scratches from 3 feet. I can not see any scratches on that Guan-xi honed razor under magnification.

Where can one get the polycrystalline diamonds for lapping out pits or is the Eze-lap sufficient?
Where can one get the Jasper? It seems like they cut in 1/4" thickness only.

[David Weaver]

I read from David Weaver this it is the initial state of the stone, later they will settle down. He mentions that he used a stone to revive the ceramics.
I wonder if I can use a some passes with my diamond coarse to do the same?
How long will last this initial state before the settle down?

You can use a diamond hone to keep it awake, a coarse one will just leave scratches further apart on the surface. Just experiment with the direction of the diamond stone scratches and see what you like (they won't help much in terms of cutting speed if they all run in the same direction you move the iron back and forth on the stone).

How long the stone will stay active before it gets slow depends on how significant the milling marks are on the stone. If it looks like it has noticeable milling marks, it should stay lively longer than it would if it is perfectly smooth (a perfectly smooth stone will get tired and cut very fine but slowly in a matter of a few sessions in the shop).

[David Weaver]

Those magnification pictures are remarkable to me. I can get a clear polish with a Shapton 15 k almost instantaneously but yet can see scratches from 3 feet. I can not see any scratches on that Guan-xi honed razor under magnification.

Where can one get the polycrystalline diamonds for lapping out pits or is the Eze-lap sufficient?
Where can one get the Jasper? It seems like they cut in 1/4" thickness only.

Look for biggs or owyhee jasper slabs on ebay and find something stable to glue them to. You can use the word "large" in your search to try to find something good. What I've found is that something like a 6x3 or 7x4 slab will end up being about 10 bucks, but it might take a little time to find it. Dave Barnett's suggestion to find a plain looking stone and one with no cracks or holes in it is a good one, they are extremely hard stones and they lap about as fast as a spyderco (which is to say not very fast).

You don't need loose polycrystalline diamonds, loose monocrystalline are fine. The yuri something or other seller on ebay is the best deal I've found, but you need a substrate to use them on, too (either a plane sole or a kanaban - i wouldn't buy an expensive kanaban for really coarse use (it does wear the kanaban), just one of the $20-$25 ones that must be imported by harima because they're everywhere).

[Derek Cohen]

What would you rate the Spyderco Medium, Fine and Ultra Fine stones in microns?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

The F and UF are 3 to 5 micron particles (spyderco says that right on their page, and I think in the paperwork that comes with the 2x8 stones). In actuality, they're very dense and initially they leave a finish like a king 8000 stone, but tend finer not long after that and they are at least the equal of the 1 micron stones, but take a little more finesse. The only thing I could liken them to is oilstones, where the level of polish doesn't match the particle size that well because the particles are in a dense matrix and there is never really a completely fresh layer of large particles available, and certainly none rolling around like you get with a waterstone.

I've seen others say that the the particle size in the brown mediums is similar, but those brown stones have pores in them and the others do not, and since the binder itself is abrasive, the pores will cut some (like a washita). Figure the finish is equivalent to something from shapton that has 6 or 7 micron particles once the stone breaks in. It's very coarse at first, but not for long.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks David. I've ordered the M and UF stones in 2 x8, plus Coarse and Fine Eze-laps in 3 x 8. It must be 10 years or more since I bought the 2 x 6 Fine, which is nicely broken in and a delight.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

When I bought a couple Spyderco stones recently I saw a ceramic rod, looks like the Spyderco brown stone. It was $6 and I bought it to try on curved blades. I was using my scorp on a Windsor Chair seat last night and decided to touch it up. Between the brown rod and the elliptical Spyderdo I was able to get the curved blade sharp without much effort. I got thinking about some much duller curved blades I have and decided to check Amazon to see if Eze-Lap makes a 600 grit rod. Turns out that they do. so very soon I will have round & elliptical rods to match the 3 stone (Eze-Lap 600 grit>brown ceramic>fine/ultra fine white ceramic stone) system. I imagine the Eze-Lap rod will work well to touch up dull kitchen knives too. As David has mentioned the ceramics are not fast. I'm not sure if they still offer them but the original Spyderco Triangular rod system use to have a diamond rod option. I never ordered them as they were pricey and I usually do not need anything more.

[Kristoffer Frederiksen]

Informative read! However I am still unsure whether ceramics are the right way for me to go.

I work as a restoration carpenter doing everything from sash and trim to timber framing and therefore I need to sharpen a big variety of tools. As of now I use a combo india followed by a Smith's black ark and green compound on leather. However the black ark doesn't do well on all my tools. So now I am in the market for a new no bs setup I can use in the shop as well as on the go and would therefore like to limit myself to three stones.

Right now I am undecided between a 400 atoma + 1k and 8k shapton pro's or 400 atoma + M and UF spydercos. As the prices here in Europe are the same for either setups I am wondering which would be the most versatile?

[Tom M King]

I had missed this thread, or at least don't remember posting in it. I don't use ceramic stones because I don't like the lack of feel. My sharpening depends on stopping on a given stone when it feels like it's finished. I'm self-taught on sharpening with a set of Arkansas stones I ordered in 1974. The set was Washita, Soft, Hard, and Black. The Black turned out to be translucent, and it changed my life.

I didn't know you were "supposed" to raise a burr on the backside, and somehow I developed the feel for when a stone is finished. When a stone has done enough, it feels like the cutting edge is cutting down into the stone. Hard stones, like ceramics and glass stones, and diamond stones never have this feel to me.

These days, my preferred setup is a progression of Sigma stones-400, 1000, 3000. 6000, 10000, and 13000. Under running water, each stone gives me the feel when it's done. It might be as little as ten strokes until it can go to the next stone. They cut fast enough that I don't need to worry with micro-bevels, so I just do full bevels. No back bevels at all. Often, I don't go back coarser than the 6k stone to start with. I can never feel a burr, but I do hit the backs on the edges of the 10k, and 13k stone to make sure.

[george wilson]

Today I took my ceramic stones down and resharpened my antique pocket knife with the largest blade I remade out of ball bearing steel(52100). I got it exceedingly sharp as usual!! I
am well satisfied with my set of Spydercos,and my MDF strop with green chromium oxide from LV. This knife will stay sharp for weeks! This is a 3 blade whittler made in Scotland. The large 5" blade was pretty worn,but the 2 smaller blades are original and pretty hard. They will get sharp as blazes too. Scottish tools trend to be pretty severely plain looking. But,they are always the very best quality.

[Patrick Chase]

These days, my preferred setup is a progression of Sigma stones-400, 1000, 3000. 6000, 10000, and 13000. Under running water, each stone gives me the feel when it's done. It might be as little as ten strokes until it can go to the next stone. They cut fast enough that I don't need to worry with micro-bevels, so I just do full bevels. No back bevels at all. Often, I don't go back coarser than the 6k stone to start with. I can never feel a burr, but I do hit the backs on the edges of the 10k, and 13k stone to make sure.

Out of curiosity are you using Select IIs? I ask because that line has a 3000 but the Power line doesn't. Also because I really like the feedback from the Select IIs.

They dish like crazy (esp the 1K) but they really let you know what's going on. It feels wasteful to us them on anything but the very hardest steel though, as they release abrasive long before it's exhausted.

[Tom M King]

341454Mostly Powers. The 10k I forgot which it is because it came off the classifieds here a good while back. The 3k is actually not a Sigma, but a Suehiro New Cerax. Stuart was out of 2 or 3k Sigma's, and I decided to try this stone to fill the gap I had between the 1k and 6k.

That 3k works okay in its spot, but it has an attached base that's a little bit of an aggravation. It's designed to produce a slurry, which can end up functioning like a finer stone, but I use it under running water, and just want it to quicken the gap between the 1k and 6k, which it does just fine.

Video coming shortly I hope...just a lot of things in process right now.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have Sigma Select II's, including the 3000, which I purchased to fill an odd gap I had, too odd and boring to explain. I have not used them in over a year though. I just reread this older classic thread.

I am now a fan of "grinding" with CBN wheels, hollow grinds for plane blades. I am very happy with the "Spyderco system" for "honing" as George and David discussed in this thread quite a while ago. Like George I finish with LV green compound on an MDF block. I have Eze Lap diamond plates but it is rare that I use them.

The two major advantages for me are: 1) I can touch up my blades PDQ, with no water or sharpening station required. My sharpening station is a grinder with CBN wheels. 2) The other major advantage is the conservation of: the steel in my blades and my personal time. I am maintaining a very small edge, usually at the edge of a minimal hollow grind, so the effort is usually miniscule. I find it much easier to maintain that smaller edge without abrading away large amounts of steel. As someone mentioned in another thread, sharpening is now a brief interlude in my work not a whole other process that takes me away from woodworking.

[Patrick Chase]

341454Mostly Powers. The 10k I forgot which it is because it came off the classifieds here a good while back. The 3k is actually not a Sigma, but a Suehiro New Cerax. Stuart was out of 2 or 3k Sigma's, and I decided to try this stone to fill the gap I had between the 1k and 6k.

That 3k works okay in its spot, but it has an attached base that's a little bit of an aggravation. It's designed to produce a slurry, which can end up functioning like a finer stone, but I use it under running water, and just want it to quicken the gap between the 1k and 6k, which it does just fine.

Video coming shortly I hope...just a lot of things in process right now.

Makes sense.

Along the same lines, I think that the mid-grit Beston/Bester/Imanishi ceramic water stones (700-1000-1200-2000) also provide nice feedback. They're a little softer and more "tactile" than the Sigma Powers, but nowhere near as soft as the Select IIs.

I used to be a "hard" water stone fanatic but have come to prefer to feel how the stone is cutting (a note to David and Stanley: Yes, I realize that sort of thinking usually ends with JNats, but I also like medium-alloy steels). If I want something "unyielding" for flattening I use diamond paste on steel.

[george wilson]

can't FEEL the ceramic stone cutting???? I look at the amount of gray particles coming off the edge while I'm sharpening. That tells me how fast the stone is cutting. Easily seen on the white stones.

I too very much like to use up as little steel on my tools as possible while sharpening. Ceramics do that just fine.

[Mike Holbrook]

I would think we could agree that "feel" is a subjective topic at best. In my case, the feel of the two edges of a minimally hollow ground blade registering solidly against a hard stone's surface is a feeling I find very helpful when sharpening by hand.

In the case of the softer water stones, which typically work with a slurry and water, I have trouble with stiction which is personified by the slurry. Stiction has a habit of causing me to run the edges of my blades into the surface of the stones, marring the stones and not doing much to improve the edges either. As is usually the case YMMV.

[george wilson]

Mike,perhaps you have a hidden talent as a STONE carver!!:) Michaelangelo LOOK OUT!!!

[Mike Holbrook]

Good one George! I have been thinking about taking up wood carving, maybe I will just move up to stone.

[Reinis Kanders]

I like Spyderco's well enough for hollow ground stuff, but I find them a bit lacking for japanese chisels. They do not seem to cut/polish fast enough. Definitely less mess than waterstones though, even the splash type waterstones seem to be messy. It is all fun though. Least messy grinding is 600 grit CBN on tormek. I have a tiny bit of light 3in1 oil on the CBN and swarf does not seem to go all over. 600 grit CBN also is fast enough for a quick refresh of the hollow.

[george wilson]

What do ceramic stones lack on Japanese chisels? Ceramics will cut steels that no other stone I tried will sharpen. I could not get a D2 knife I made quite razor sharp until I got my Spyderco ceramic stones. The Spydercos brought the edge right up.

Ceramics will even sharpen carbide lathe bits.

[Curt Putnam]

can't FEEL the ceramic stone cutting???? I look at the amount of gray particles coming off the edge while I'm sharpening. That tells me how fast the stone is cutting. Easily seen on the white stones.

I too very much like to use up as little steel on my tools as possible while sharpening. Ceramics do that just fine.

Sir George: how quickly do your stones load up with swarf? When I used round rods to sharpen knives they generally required cleaning after each knife. Pretty much the same with the Spyderco triangular. I now have a 1" x 4" that will do several knives before needing cleaning. How do you clean your stones?

Thanks, Curt

[Patrick Chase]

What do ceramic stones lack on Japanese chisels? Ceramics will cut steels that no other stone I tried will sharpen. I could not get a D2 knife I made quite razor sharp until I got my Spyderco ceramic stones. The Spydercos brought the edge right up.

Ceramics will even sharpen carbide lathe bits.

"No other stone" seems hyperbolic - there's nothing magical about the abrasive in Spyderco stones. It's simply a toughened aluminum oxide ceramic ("alumina ceramic"), and as such quite inferior to natural diamond, synthetic diamond, and CBN. It's also softer than SiC, though much tougher and more fracture-resistant.

For that matter Alumina ceramic won't cut anything that the abrasive in a modern top-quality Aluminum-Oxide waterstone wouldn't cut, though its greater toughness means that it can use a harder binder and doesn't need [as much] flattening.

It's leaps and bounds better than SiOx though.

[Tom M King]

The feel that I depend on is not that a stone is cutting, but when it's done all the benefit it can do. I don't know that I could teach anyone else. I spent a lot of time when I was younger trying to figure sharpening out, and somehow that's what I ended up with. I don't get it with really hard stones, except for the Translucent Arkansas that taught it to me.

I never feel for a wire edge as a judge. Whenever I have felt for one, it's not there, unless I'm doing some medium to light reshaping with the X-coarse diamond plate-when it doesn't need enough to hit the CBN wheel.

[Reinis Kanders]

What do ceramic stones lack on Japanese chisels? Ceramics will cut steels that no other stone I tried will sharpen. I could not get a D2 knife I made quite razor sharp until I got my Spyderco ceramic stones. The Spydercos brought the edge right up.

Ceramics will even sharpen carbide lathe bits.

They definitely cut the steel, but it is much slower than say 1200 Sigma something stone that I actually use with oil which supposedly slows it down. I just had some microchips in one japanese chisel and medium brown was not doing much help, but 1200 sigma took care of them pretty fast, maybe 20 strokes.
Anyways I actually use the spydercos quite often, probably because of this post, but mostly with PMV11 steel. For regular steel I like oilstones better, they just feel more appropriate. I like all my stones and I have many of them:)

[george wilson]

Patrick,I said no other stone that I TRIED. Diamond "stones" aren't really stones last time I looked. They seem to be steel coated with diamonds. And,I don't care for water stones. Tried them years ago,and they are messy and seemed to rust my tools some no matter how dry I wiped them.

I use a LITTLE squirt of water on my Spydercos,but that little bit doesn't seem to rust my tools like a really wet water stone did. I just don't like a lot of mess,so no stones in "ponds",etc., for me. Also,I just don't have room for a dedicated "sharpening station". Too many tools! Nor am I going to pay often silly prices for stones that dish and wear out. I gave David my never used 2 sided Belgian coticle as it is really for razors,which he shaves with. (I just break a piece of window glass and shave with that!!:))

My Spydercos will be around for many years after I am gone. Money spent once for stones that will cut anything and leave razor sharp edges. No fuss,no muss! I take them down,use them,and put them back up out of the way.

Someone asked about cleaning: The flat stones with a spritz of slightly soapy water will only get a little steel imbedded in them compared to using a DRY slip stone. You can clean them with Ajax or Comet cleanser or the like at the sink once in a while,or give them a brief scrub with the diamond plate. I don't need to clean my ceramics too often.

Since you are putting a great deal of pressure on a small area with slip stones(like a phonograph needle),they will get gray pretty soon compared to a broad.flat,and wetted bench stone. A LITTLE gray doesn't bother me. The stones don't need to be spotless to be effective.

[Robert Engel]

Reponse to the previous post: So what if a diamond plate isn't a "stone"? As far as rusting tools, I've been using water stones for over 20 years and have never had a problem all I do is a quick spray of WD40.

I don't use them mostly because I can't justify cost when diamond plates and waterstones do the trick fine for me.

My only experience (I'm sure I'll be told something is wrong) with ceramic stones was two ceramic stones came with a chip carving set I bought.
They did not perform well for me. I spent an hour to prepare and hone a chip carving knife.
Don't know what the grits were but my experience with them tell me they didn't cut that well.
I also realized if you don't keep them clean, they clog up and will not cut well at all.

[Howard Pollack]

I've been, perhaps unnecessarily, daunted by the idea of flattening such a hard stone. Does anyone, besides Spyderco, produce ceramic stones that are already flat? Thanks.
-Howard

[Reinis Kanders]

From my three Spyderco's only the UF was flatish. Medium one was easy enough to flatten with diamond xcoarse DMT honeycomb. The third one us a big 3x8 UF and it has a significant hollow along the long axes, I still have not finished flattening it, not worth the diamonds and it gives a bit of a polished camber this way:)

[george wilson]

Woodcraft sold a smaller,pink ceramic stone. I bought one years ago for a doctor friend who wanted one to sharpen his kitchen knives.

Response to Robert: I don't like oil on my tools to get on the wood and on my hands to get on my wood. Or in my skin to possibly cause arthritis. I have enough of that already. Certainly not to get on my skin on a regular basis. WD40 has also been found to leave a very difficult to remove hard coating of dried crud if left too long on steel. You may not be having that problem if you are wiping your tools often,but be warned,if for some reason you store your tools away during a vacation ,move or what ever. This fact is well known to machinists and often discussed on machinist's fora that I visit. i'd rather just use what stones I have and not have to oil my tools.

If you only have white ceramic stones,you need the more coarse "black" one to use first. I hone on a diamond plate first,then use black ceramic then white. Then strop as mentioned many times over the eternally re started threads on sharpening.

If you find ceramic stones don't work for you,you are doing something wrong. They work just fine,but you can't expect to get a quick,sharp edge on a significantly dull tool,starting with a white ceramic. It is too fine. That would be like trying to get a quick edge on a dull tool with a very fine grit water stone.

[Robert Engel]

Woodcraft sold a smaller,pink ceramic stone. I bought one years ago for a doctor friend who wanted one to sharpen his kitchen knives.

Response to Robert: I don't like oil on my tools to get on the wood and on my hands to get on my wood. Or in my skin to possibly cause arthritis. I have enough of that already. Certainly not to get on my skin on a regular basis. WD40 has also been found to leave a very difficult to remove hard coating of dried crud if left too long on steel. You may not be having that problem if you are wiping your tools often,but be warned,if for some reason you store your tools away during a vacation ,move or what ever.I use WD40 to displace the water after sharpening, not for lubrication.

I've never had a problem with residue getting on wood because after sharpening, I wipe it off so the residue will be minor. Plus, I apply jatoba oil. Before using the plane, I set the lateral lever by test planing a thin piece of wood, followed by a few test strokes to dial in the depth before using on my piece. Any residue will be removed.

WD40 causing arthritis us news to me. In fact, I know people who swear by rubbing WD40 on arthritic joints helps it.

If you're worried about getting it on you, just wear gloves. You could use alcohol just as well.

If I was storing a tool I would not use WD40 but coat the whole tool in motor oil and wrap in plastic.

Finally, I think WD40 has an unwarranted bad rep for a lot of ww'ers + Frank Klausz uses it so it must be ok, right? ;)

Have a good one!

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick,I said no other stone that I TRIED

You're right, reading comprehension error on my part. Thanks for the patient reply.

[Patrick Chase]

Reponse to the previous post: So what if a diamond plate isn't a "stone"? As far as rusting tools, I've been using water stones for over 20 years and have never had a problem all I do is a quick spray of WD40.

I don't use them mostly because I can't justify cost when diamond plates and waterstones do the trick fine for me.

While I personally don't like the ceramic stones very much, this seems a bit unfair to them. They last basically forever with the right care, so the economics are quite good in the long run.

The key words being "right care". You have to use them with a lubricant (when I used them on skis I used either water with a mild detergent or a 50:50 alcohol/water mix - both worked better than water for me), and you have to occasionally scrub them out with kitchen cleanser. If you let them get "packed" with swarf then they can be a righteous pain to restore. In my experience the brown ones were fairly easy to score, so that's another thing to watch out for.

While that may sound like a lot of work, IMO it's a lower maintenance overhead than managing water stones (soaking, spritzing, flattening, building shrines in the case of JNats), so I would argue that that's actually an advantage of the ceramics. For that matter I think they're competitive with oilstones in terms of overall hassle factor, and as George says they can cut stuff that novaculite won't.

FWIW I lightly coat my blades with CRC 3-36 (same basic idea as WD40) after using water stones. Like you I have no rust issues whatsoever.

[Patrick Chase]

Response to Robert: I don't like oil on my tools to get on the wood and on my hands to get on my wood. Or in my skin to possibly cause arthritis. I have enough of that already.

I don't know of anything in WD40 (its basic composition is well known (http://www.wired.com/2009/04/st-whatsinside-6/)) that has been linked to arthritis via contact exposure. You don't want to imbibe or huff the stuff, but it's pretty mild overall.

[Mike Holbrook]

"Well Known" nonsense. The label on the can says DANGER in a big yellow box. It warns against prolonged contact with the skin. I'm sorry Patrick but IMHO it is irresponsible to suggest that something containing all the elements in the article you point to is "safe". Show me an article where actual testing has been done with all those elements on human skin. My guess is none exist and that it would be illegal, not to mention irresponsible to conduct such a test with humans. I guarantee it want make prolonged contact with this posters skin!

I was unable to do woodworking for large parts of two years because of allergic reactions on my skin. I would not wish those allergic responses on anyone. Still not sure what kept on & on triggering it. I have found that like apparently 5% of the population I am allergic to Neosporin. Apparently some of these allergic reactions are cumulative, I never had any slight indication of issues before. If a wound medication causes severe reactions on that large a % of the population...Google Neosporin allergic reactions if you don't believe me.

[Charles Bjorgen]

I was an early adopter of the Spyderco stones when George first introduced this topic nearly two years ago. I have the medium brown/black and the white untra fine stones. Mine were pretty flat when they arrived but I did a bit of truing with the diamond plate I use for flattening water stones. I'm always able to achieve a burr with the Spydercos and like George, I finish on a strop. It's a pretty nice, clean, easy system. For reference if I need to regrind a bevel I do so on my old 16-year-old Tormek for a hollow grind and finish free hand to get a micro bevel.

Like a lot of folks here I have several systems that also includes Eze-Lap plates and Arkansas stones. I tend to use them all because I can.

[george wilson]

At my age,and with the pains i already have in my back,neck,wrists and right thumb(worn out from playing guitar since 1952)AND 2 worn out knees,I am very cautious about what I get on my skin,what I breathe,etc.. I breathed too many lacquer fumes,used too much turpentine(which IS bad for you. They banned its use in the museum's paint shop),breathed way too much exotic wood dust,and did myself enough harm already!!

By now,I have gotten pretty sensitive to some of the smells I was around for over 60 years. Some things give me an instant headache,and I am very short on breath. No longer indestructible! I may be over cautious at this stage of my life. But,better safe than sorry.

Charles just above is getting good results,apparently. Of course you have to start with coarse media(the diamond plate) and move to black,then white ceramic stones,just as you move from coarse to finer sandpaper.

About Arkansas stones: I have easily ground broken white Arkansas slip stones into different,useful shapes,using blue ceramic belts(which happened to be on the belt grinder at the time I was experimenting with re shaping the slip stones.) Arkansas is soft as butter compared to ceramic.

[Trevor Goodwin]

Just so it's clear, you're concerned with WD40 causing Arthritis? Not Dermatitis?

Aren't there a bunch of other suitable oils for honing? eg. Norton honing oil, plain mineral oil (paraffin?), baby oil, etc.

[Patrick Chase]

"Well Known" nonsense. The label on the can says DANGER in a big yellow box. It warns against prolonged contact with the skin. I'm sorry Patrick but IMHO it is irresponsible to suggest that something containing all the elements in the article you point to is "safe". Show me an article where actual testing has been done with all those elements on human skin. My guess is none exist and that it would be illegal, not to mention irresponsible to conduct such a test with humans. I guarantee it want make prolonged contact with this posters skin!

I was unable to do woodworking for large parts of two years because of allergic reactions on my skin. I would not wish those allergic responses on anyone. Still not sure what kept on & on triggering it. I have found that like apparently 5% of the population I am allergic to Neosporin. Apparently some of these allergic reactions are cumulative, I never had any slight indication of issues before. If a wound medication causes severe reactions on that large a % of the population...Google Neosporin allergic reactions if you don't believe me.

Mike, I'm very sorry to hear about your allergic reaction. I've had a few of those (and my family have had more) and they suck.

A couple points:

1. "Allergy" is not he same as "toxicity". People have severe, even life-threatening reactions to nontoxic substances all of the time. It sucks for that individual, but it doesn't mean that we should avoid every substance that has ever caused such a reaction. If we did we'd all starve to death (seriously).

2. Here's the MSDS (http://wd40.com/files/pdf/msds-wd494716385.pdf)for WD40. I don't know how much experience you have reading these things, but this is not remotely bad as such things go. We all, and particularly woodworkers, interact with worse toxins on a very frequent basis. It doesn't help anybody to blow things out of proportion and whip up hysteria. Before you latch onto that "death via aspiration" warning, please be aware that basically every oil (http://www.steoil.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/70FG-SDS-1.pdf)carries that one.

EDIT: Antibiotics like Neosporin are notorious for causing severe allergic reactions. If we're taking a balanced, realistic view of overall risks that stuff is far more hazardous than something like WD-40.

[Mike Holbrook]

Patrick my objective here is to save other posters a considerable amount of misery, not to argue or prove a point. I have had reasons to talk with quite a few doctors, read a few books and do a fair amount of research. IMHO one of the largest issues many people face with their health is they often expect: a doctor, medications, a label, the internet to protect them from heath issues when that is often an unrealistic expectation in our fast changing world. Ultimately we have to take charge of our own health and make informed decisions based on our own personal experiences. Medications and even foods in the current world we live in can be dangerous to a large segment of the population. There are currently laws being debated to deal with some of these issues. As we know, laws change slowly while the “engineered/man made substances" in our world often change faster than the human immune system can.

Possibly the most pervasive medical issue for humans in our fast growing world is inflammation. Inflammation is believed to be a/the major contributing factor in some/all of our largest medical issues: all sorts of dementia, diabetes, arteriosclerosis, cancer, liver disease, obesity….Some of the medications which fight: allergic reactions, joint issues, even cancer are the same as they apparently combat inflammation. Methotrexate which was designed as a cancer drug, was prescribed for my skin issues. It is also prescribed for severe arthritis issues. Immune system issues, allergic reactions and inflammation are some of the most pervasive medical issues facing humans today. HIV/AIDS may be the clearest example of what pervasive immune system issues can become.

I see these issues personified with many of the dogs I deal with at clubs and professionally. Very heathy dogs sometimes have fast, severe inflammation/immune deficiency issues that veterinarians are struggling to find reasons for. The best guess seems to be the foods and medications provided by people who are attempting to provide exemplary care for their pets. Dogs handle diet changes and many medications worse than humans do. Change the main protein or any of many other ingredients in one of my German shepherds diets and you will be cleaning diarrhea up for weeks or as much as a month. I mention dogs because medications which may be illegal to use on humans are legal for dogs. Dogs are often the “guinea pigs” for human medications.

There are more and more genetically engineered and “man made" substances, which may not have been properly tested, that end up in our food and other substances we may use. Take wheat, gluten. All of the wheat grown in the US today is an entirely different, genetically engineered, plant than the plant grown just a few decades ago. The gluten content in the genetically engineered plant is at least several times that of the original plant. There is a large segment of the population which apparently has a large array of health issues from eating gluten in the growing amounts it occurs in our diets. Gluten is cheap and is often added to foods in alarming amounts simply because it is cheap. Pick up a bag of “Corn Meal” in any grocery store, turn the bag over and read the label. The first, largest qty, of substances in that “corn meal” is wheat. Gluten is even frequently added to meat. Things change faster and faster in the world we live in, frequently laws and medical testing can't keep up. As Patrick’s article above testifies WD40 is made from Petroleum Distillates. These are man made/engineered ingredients which have not been tested in terms of their effect on the human immune system.

The point is at least two posters are saying they believe they have experienced issues with WD40. There is considerable evidence that many allergic/immune/inflammation issues are related. In many instances current drugs used to combat these seemingly unrelated issues are the same because they deal with allergic/immune/inflammation issues. I thought we were all here to learn from each others experiences? Sometimes I grow confused when posters feel the need to argue and debate with other posters about their personal experiences.

[Mike Allen1010]

Revival of this thread is very timely for me – I'm looking for some help to get the best performance out of my Spyderco Ultra Fine stone and a little advice on related sharpening questions. I'll confess that like Chris Grigg's said "I'm all for excessive sharpening"– I don't mind spending a little extra time to get the best edge I can.

First a bit of background: I went through a set of the 3 Sigma power stones (f/ Stu) which I liked very much. My only complaint was that the finest grit stone was really easy to gouge, particularly when freehand sharpening narrow chisels.

Now I have three Shapton Pro's : 1,000, 4,000 and 8,000 (I'm not 100% sure but I think those are the grits).I finish stropping on a piece of hardwood with green rouge. Using this system I get an outstanding edge, although I'm not a 100% consistent when free hand sharpening. I think I may be occasionally dubbing the edge when stropping?

1) How much pressure should I apply when stropping and how many passes on each side of the blade? I'm never sure if I should use moderate pressure or just lightly glide the blade down this strop?

2) Is the Spyderco UF a finer grit than the Shapton 8,000 – in other words does it make sense to use that as my final finishing stone or is the difference in particle size/finished edge so small as to not be worth the time?

3) I really like the hardness of the Spyderco UF, it seems almost impossible to gouge. I spent about 30 minutes with an Atoma plate flattening the Spyderco UF. I'm still not 100% sure it's flat. The Atoma plate is several years old – it flattens the Shapton's fine, but doesn't work nearly as well on the Spyderco. I've also been using 1,000 grit sandpaper with sanding block to try and get a uniform flat surface in between uses.

My problem with the Spyderco is it seems like every time I remove the burr on the flat side of the blade, steel particles lodge in the surface of the stone and they need to be scrubbed off with a scouring pad before the stone is smooth again. If I skip this step, it feels like the metal particles lodged in the surface of the stone leave a rough surface.

Does anyone else have this problem? I just use water as a lubricant, maybe adding some detergent would help?

Any and all thoughts and suggestions are much appreciated!

All the best, Mike

[george wilson]

I ,somehow,have never had the problem of steel particles breaking off and lodging in my Spyderco. But,I am not using your blades,or your techniques. Could they possibly be the problem?

I do recommend a few drops of detergent in a cup size squirt bottle of water. A few drops of water based cutting fluid would be good,to. I used Aquacut,but haven't any on hand right now. The detergent seems to work fine,and might well keep steel particles from sticking to your Spyderco.

Actually,I get my tools sharp without raising a burr. This seems to be a waste of the blade to me.