Parallelogram Jointer vs Dovetail ways? Which to choose??

[Dave Kirby]

Hi everyone! I sold my 6" Jointer a while ago and have regretted it ever since. Now it's time to replace it; so I'm gonna take the opportunity to upgrade to an 8 inch machine this time. I'm torn between a Jointer with Parallelogram tables or the standard style tables that run on dovetailed ways. My old machine had the dovetailed way tables. What are the advantages/disadvantages to the Parallelogram tables? Is it really any better for cut quality? I really don't have any experience with those type of tables. I am also considering a spiral cutterhead this time. To save on money, would it be wise to go with an 8" jointer with dovetail way tables that has the spiral cutter over a Parallelogram with a 4 knife cutterhead? I'd love some honest advice and opinions from some experienced owners/users. Much appreciated!! Thanks again!

[Dave Zellers]

I like my Grizzly 8" parallelogram jointer very much. It's so easy to change the depth of cut and then change it back. I couldn't afford a spiral cutter head so I can't comment there except to say that I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they didn't like theirs. Without direct knowledge, I would guess a dovetail spiral cutter head would trump a parallelogram straight knife cutter head jointer.

But I have the ability to sharpen my own knives and I will also say that a sharp well tuned G0490 is a very serious machine. A 3 3/16" 4 knife cutter head is nothing to sneeze at, especially when the knives are razor sharp.

[David Kumm]

I'd look hard at parallelogram with new. The old wedgebed jointers had tables that bolted to the wedges so they could be leveled. New have a wedge cast with the table so you need to shim the wedges if not co planar. Sprial is nice but generally you don't use a jointer for a final finish except maybe the edge so flat parallel tables are way more important. Dave

[Bill Orbine]

Delta DJ-20 w/ straight knives here. Love the parallelogram over the dovetail. Very quick to change and adjust. As for knives, have seriously considered the Byrd helical, but with cost not a factor, other questions arises that's a different story, especially with the jointer. The helical are awesome on my planer.

[Myk Rian]

I've never seen a need for spending the extra money for one. What's so hard about adjusting the depth of cut on a wedge bed? It's not something you need to do very often anyway.
But as it goes, it's your money.

[John McClanahan]

I've never seen a need for spending the extra money for one. What's so hard about adjusting the depth of cut on a wedge bed? It's not something you need to do very often anyway.
But as it goes, it's your money.

Kinda what I was thinking.

John

[glenn bradley]

Anyone who has had to align DT-way tables would never want to go through that again ;-) This was #1 on my list of must-haves when I went shopping. Other must-haves were:
Tall fence - I use the jointer for much more that 90* edge jointing.
Long beds - Work supports are great but, I'd rather not use them on a 42" piece of stock to maintain my feed path.
Mobility - A jointer can mostly be used where it is but, mine was destined to stand in front of my lumber rack wall and I needed easy occasional access.
Insert cutterhead - I use a lot of figured material and also didn't want the fuss and expense of HSS knives.

And there is the plus of the tables staying a consistent distance from the cutters regardless of depth. Of course, your mileage may vary.

[HANK METZ]

I've got an ancient Delta 6" jointer of 1950 vintage. My default setting is 1/32" bite, and multiple passes to get where I need to go, so table adjust methodology is less relevant to me than sharp knives. I am one of the rare guys who do use it for an occasional edge rabbet, so knife ends have a sharpened 10 degree back bevel and produce a nicely formed joint and is about the only time I really crank down for a deep cut. I don't think Euro machines are allowed to have this feature anymore, having been deemed "too dangerous" by the safety nannies.

[John A langley]

I had an old straight-knives six-inch Jointer sold it and bought a grizzly go656x it has served me well ,I leave mine at 1/16 ,was true right out of the box I do like the wheels for setting the elevation. Which ever Jointer you get would definitely go with the spiral cutter, are you looking at the grizzly

[Mike Ontko]

I'd pondered the same question before deciding to purchase a used (but well cared for) 8" Grizzly G0593 DT bed jointer with a spiral cutter.

Having a parallelogram bed seems a nice feature if you expect to have to make adjustments repeatedly over time just to ensure that your beds remain coplaner. But from the vast majority of what I'd read (a lot of it here on this forum), there doesn't appear to be much of a need for making frequent adjustments once the beds are initially set--be it with shims or cam adjustments. And, unless you're doing a lot of production work (at or near commercial levels), frequently changing the positions of your infeed and outfeed beds, or are subjecting the jointer to a lot of physical movement/vibration (from shipping/transport, for example), the settling or drift expected over time should be negligible--at least for the home hobbiest.

Also...the jury still seems to be out on the topic of spiral heads vs straight blades. I opted to go with the spiral head for the following reasons: quieter, less liklihood of tearout, and a much simpler process for getting a new sharp edge. I haven't done enough (I haven't actually done any) work with it yet to be able to notice the ridges/ripples that I've read can be left behind from spiral/helical heads. But I've seen enough evidence of experienced craftspeople using spiral heads that I don't believe it's all that serious of an issue or difficult to correct.

[John A langley]

Mike has a very good point I don't think I've ever had a problem with the Dovetail ways on my old jointer

[Keith Hankins]

Well I bought my 12 Griz about 8 years ago and researched and the powers that be said that the big diff is with parallogram was adjustable on the 4 corners so if you were off just a hair front to back, you could adjust not have to shim like you would with dovetail ways. Other benefit was as the infeed table was lowered the distance from from head to table remained constant as opposed to the dovetail version that the distance would increase as the table was lowered.

I've not had to adjust my table so the first benefit I've never had to use. The second is nice, but I'm not sure it's a total deal breaker to me. I had the choice with my budget of getting a 12" with dovetail ways and inserts .vs. 12" with parallogram tables and HSS blades. I opted for the HSS and have never looked back and don't regret the choice.

I do feel though that if I'd gone the other way, I would have been equally satisfied. Good luck on your choice.

[Pat Barry]

I voted parallelogram but I only did because I wanted to see the poll results.

[Paul McGaha]

Powermatic PJ-882 Parallelogram jointer here. I bought it new w straight knives about 2005. I had a Byrd head put on it last year. Loving it.

PHM

[Brett Robson]

Parallelogram would be a nice feature I suppose, but all the wedge bed jointers I've owned never have been out of alignment to the point I had to shim up the beds.

In comparing two jointers, if the prices were the same, I'm sure I'd go with the parallelogram. If the wedge bed style costs less, I'd have no problem buying another one.

[Garth Almgren]

I voted parallelogram but I only did because I wanted to see the poll results.
I voted dovetailed just to be contrary. :D

[Guy Belleman]

Like most I have had a knife/dovetailed bed machine and now have a helical/parallel machine. Once set up the older machine did well, although once set up, I hated to move the tables and have to re-shim them. Setting the knives just took a little practice and the right tools. On the new machine, the parallel beds were perfectly aligned right out of the box when mounted. The noise of the helix head is about 1/3. Would not go back.

[Tom M King]

I have three different wedge jointers-all fairly old by most peoples' standards these days. I had to shim one when I first got it 35 years ago. I adjust the cut depth all the time on mine, and any one of them can still produce a straight edge after hundreds, and probably thousands of cuts. What machine needs all this continuous shimming?

[Sparky Paessler]

I have a 1920's Fay and Egan 12" jointer with dovetail ways and it adjust smooth as silk. Was a little work getting the tables adjusted when I first got it but it works great. Now if I was buying new I would probably get a Parallelogram Jointer but the old dovetail one can be great values. Here is a picture of mine not long after I got it. I have since put a new motor, control and dust collection on it.

[troy dixen]

I have a grizzly 6" with the Spiral head, will never even look at straight knives anymore, cuts like glass

[jack forsberg]

parallelogram table were introduced in the UK in the Late 40s so it not a new idea. the reason there made this way today is because it is cheaper to make the parallel than wedge bed. generally the parallels have longer support point for the tables. Most made today have no adjustments at all to the pivots if there out or warn. really good ones like the mid 50s Wadkin RQ had adjustment cams and replaceable bronzes bushing and is a real fine specimen of how these should be made.

I have a 1951 Bursgreen made with a parallelogram table and one of the first of its kind in the UK

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/12515-B.jpg

the Wadkin RQ

http://www.solidwoodmachinery.com/Wadkin%20Jointer1.jpg


http://www.solidwoodmachinery.com/Wadkin%20Jointer5.jpg

[Mike Ontko]

I have three different wedge jointers-all fairly old by most peoples' standards these days. I had to shim one when I first got it 35 years ago. I adjust the cut depth all the time on mine, and any one of them can still produce a straight edge after hundreds, and probably thousands of cuts. What machine needs all this continuous shimming?

...especially when most manufacturers match the infeed and outfeed beds during factory surfacing. Other than changes due to shock, settling, or thermal changes I'm not sure why such a large chunk of iron would shift over time.

[Jim Andrew]

I had a 10" new Oliver from sunhill machinery, never could get it adjusted correctly. Always a little snipe on the end, or it just would not cut. Bought the Grizzly GO609, added the Byrd cutterhead, and those problems are gone. The Griz was adjusted perfectly out of the box.

[Mel Fulks]

. The Griz was adjusted perfectly out of the box.[/QUOTE]
Might be the first time that sentence was ever in print, congratulations!,Jim

[John A langley]

Nel my Grizz was perfect out of the Box to

[Frank Drew]

I had a wedge bed 1950s Northfield with straight knives (which were a bear to set), but it never gave me any trouble with accuracy, and I adjusted the depth cut all the time. In my next life, however, I'd like to try a vintage Oliver, just because, and I think they all had parallelogram tables. If I could also get a quieter cut, that would be nice.

Consistent accuracy, cutterhead width, and long tables would be my priorities when shopping for a jointer.

[dan sherman]

I voted parallelogram. As others have said, when it comes time to adjust the alignment a parallelogram machine is less of a headache. I did a quick check of the 8" Grizzly models, and the parallelogram model is only $150 more than the dovetail model. I don't know about anyone else, but I would drop the extra $150 in a hear beat just so prevent any future headaches.

[Dave Zellers]

Nel my Grizz was perfect out of the Box to
Ditto. After tightening the belt during setup, the only adjustment I've made to my 8" Grizzly in 4 years is to adjust the depth of cut.

[Jeff Duncan]

I don't know if I missed it on all these posts, but the real and only reason I care about to go parallelogram over dovetailed ways if for speed of adjusting cut depth. You'll probably adjust the beds once in a lifetime unless you really get a LOT of use out of the machine. However adjusting the height of the infeed is something you, (or at least I), do all the time. First couple passes in rough stock I may hog anywhere from 1/8", up to 1/4" for really gnarly boards. Then when you need that final finish pass you pop the table up and just skim a bit off. Do that with a hand wheel jointer for a while and your not going to be the happiest camper…..at least I wasn't! So parallelogram all the way for me!

good luck,
JeffD

[Dave Zellers]

... the real and only reason I care about to go parallelogram over dovetailed ways if for speed of adjusting cut depth.

Exactamundo. That's what I was saying in the first response to this thread when I said, "It's so easy to change the depth of cut and then change it back.".

I do exactly as you do, and I'm sure countless others. A deep cut or two initially to straighten a rough edge, followed by a shallow finish cut.

Easy peasy with a P-gram jointer.

Plus, each board has a different bow, so you adjust on a per board basis, get them all straight, then make them perfect with a tiny skim.

[Mel Fulks]

I understand the points for parallelogram but I agree with them only when two average machines are compared. When you compare
two premium examples, an OLD wedge bed has some advantages. Large infeed table adjustment wheel (aprox 20" or more)that can be spun down and even up to some degree. Much deeper cut capacity. The out feed table adjustment wheel
with those large acme threads can be calibrated to easily move one thousandth up or down (why the mfgs didn't add a pointer and calibration marks is
anybodys guess). Tables made of Mechanite that were often hand scraped. The drop down out feed table adjustment,besides adding other features, also makes it easy to adjust tables parallel. Such
machines are not being made anymore but there are enough for everyone who can afford the best to have one. As for the ones that are worn out ...yeah ,I would avoid them. But I haven't seen any. I did come across one that the tables were way out of adjustment on...or so it seemed; someone had put a bunch of shims under both, when we removed them the
machine was close to perfect, I'm thankful we didn't tear into "adjusting" before checking that!

[rudy de haas]

After book research (i.e. with no practical experience) I opted for the parallelogram (G0490/CX-08) mainly because of that lack of experience. It's easy to set up and use - and that matters to me.

Besides, I can save up to add a helical cutter head at some future date - but a dovetail jointer with a helical cutter is always going to be a dovetail.

[peter gagliardi]

Buying new with the current choices that have been discussed, parallelogram is best. Now, if you came across an old American jointer that would most certainly win for ease and speed in the depth of cut adjustment! I don't think there is, or was a faster adjusting machine made! Hands never have to drop below tabletop. Martin makes a nice unit, old OR new!

[Myk Rian]

Buying new with the current choices that have been discussed, parallelogram is best. Now, if you came across an old American jointer that would most certainly win for ease and speed in the depth of cut adjustment! I don't think there is, or was a faster adjusting machine made! Hands never have to drop below tabletop. Martin makes a nice unit, old OR new!

Something about this doesn't make sense. What's the difference between an old and new jointer? Dovetail is dovetail.
No matter what you get, you still have to adjust it from under the table.

[peter gagliardi]

Myk, you simply cannot compare a new jointer quality or durability by any of the current offshore makers to the quality of the older heavy cast iron machines made to work in a factory from yesteryear! Every parallelogram machine I've seen has a lever under the infeed table- not convenient. My American has a large 20"-ish hand wheel that is above the infeed table for adjusting - really slick and easy!!! I also have a newer Powermatic wedge that has the adjusting lever under the table- nice machine, but nowhere near as user friendly.
That hopefully clarifies it a little.

[David Kumm]

Besides the cast iron being aged and the tables flat, there are huge design differences between the old Clement three toed design wedgebed used by American, Yates, Porter, Northfield, and others and new. In addition to the tables bolting to the wedges so they could be shimmed separately, the infeed wedge was geared to a wheel that made the table travel much more effortless. In addition there were multiple adjustments to correct the wedges front to back and side to side. Todays wedgebed has the wedge and table cast together and it just slides in ways. Really primitive in comparison. And cheap to make. If everything lines up, all is well. If not, you don't have an easy fix. Risk management. Dave

[jack forsberg]

Myk you realty need to get out there and look the world over.:rolleyes: to ajust the beds of the wadkin you shim the flats that ride horizontal and not the angled ways. BTW the Old UK machine don't have gib bars to fit the ways there hand scraped in.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/patterntable010.jpg

rise and fall is at the end of the table and the handle folds and comes off to.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/patterntable009.jpg

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/patterntable013.jpg

[Myk Rian]

Myk, you simply cannot compare a new jointer quality or durability by any of the current offshore makers to the quality of the older heavy cast iron machines made to work in a factory from yesteryear!
I do own a vintage Rockwell 8 " with hand wheels. Owned a Grizzly 8" with lever. Neither one being difficult to adjust, and get back to the original setting.
I don't think I was comparing new vs old.

[Frank Drew]

... a dovetail jointer with a helical cutter is always going to be a dovetail.

You say that as if the dovetail jointer design is inherently second rate; that hasn't been my experience, but I'm talking older iron since I don't have any experience with newer machinery.

[Rod Sheridan]

Parallelogram versus dovetail jointer is about as useful a discussion as deciding which shade of white paint you want.

A good dovetail jointer is far better than a crappy parallelogram jointer, and vice versa.

Each machine has to be evaluated on the design and construction. If you pay for a quality machine, regardless of construction method you will have a machine that works properly, stays in alignment and will outlast your great grandchildren.

Prepare to pay real money for such a machine...............Rod.

[Dave Kirby]

Thanks so much everyone for contributing! As I have poured over your responses, and discussion, I have gotten a wealth of info and advice here and now feel I can make a very well informed decision! I appreciate all your helpful feedback! Good discussion! And to Rod Sheridan: I guess I won't be submitting my next question...(Note to self: DO NOT ask which shade of white paint is better!) ;) Thanks again everyone! The "Creek" never disappoints!

[Chris Fournier]

I've had both and really couldn't careless which system I have. On a well made machine they both function flawlessly, on a cheap poorly made machine they will both likely be a headache. Currently my 16" jointer is parallelogram. I do prefer the handwheel adjustment of the tables over the lever but it is no impediment to dialing in the depth of cut I want, the jointer is break out tool not a precision tool.